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Tyler Boley
9-Mar-2016, 23:07
I asked this on the scanner list but there are several experienced howtek users here so I'm cross posting. I'm getting this error with my 4500-
Lamp/Mirror RGB
error F719
In focus mode I've check both lamps, see that the light path is clear and bright, aimed well, etc etc.. and the mirror is in the correct position. Can't seem to get past it, changed lamps just to make sure... so I need to run the diagnostic utility.
It's been a long time since I've run these utilities, but I know I have successfully done it before on this same setup, I just don't recall the solution.
Originally they ran from a floppy, of course those days are long gone. Now the files are simply on my old mac that runs the scanner.. MacUtil3.7 folder, MacUtil4 Folder, and 4500-R813 which I believe was firmware..
Anyway, running in classic on the old G4, anything in those folders I try to open the system asks for what application.. I can't seem to invoke it AS the application.
I know I ran into this before and got around it somehow, but this time I can't seem to solve it, any advice? Maybe put it on a disk image?
Thanks
Tyler

onnect17
10-Mar-2016, 07:48
Why don't you try the PC version of the FST instead?

Tyler Boley
10-Mar-2016, 18:14
I guess the obvious reply is... I don't have a PC? Or do I not get something?
Anyway, the solution, for anyone else running into this is that they will not work in OS9 running in Classic mode.. you must boot into OS9

onnect17
10-Mar-2016, 18:39
I tried to run those utilities booting in OS9 and never managed to get anything similar to the PC version. Now, I am not very familiar with the Macs so that should be the problem.

The PC version works straight forward in any laptop or desktop. I tested it using floppies and hard drives and pretty much any SCSI adapter, including PCMCIA cards and parallel port adapters. How hard is to put together an old PC with a floppy drive and a 2930 scsi card?

Did you checked page 4-13 of the Service Manual? Perhaps you are having trouble with the index.

Tyler Boley
11-Mar-2016, 14:40
yes thanks, I have plenty of things to look into. The diagnostic was fairly catastrophic, but the main thing is both lamps show as failed, even though they are clearly working, and the light path to the drum seems clear. Still. I've had to replace lamps before that apparently no longer put out enough. I'll get new bulbs today and proceed from there. I'm assuming some of the other tests that failed required the light path working to begin with, so I'll start there.
This happened so quickly between scans I'm wondering of something didn't physically block the light path internally. In the meantime I have someone waiting for me to complete their job... always the way when these things happen.

onnect17
11-Mar-2016, 15:23
yes thanks, I have plenty of things to look into. The diagnostic was fairly catastrophic, but the main thing is both lamps show as failed, even though they are clearly working, and the light path to the drum seems clear. Still. I've had to replace lamps before that apparently no longer put out enough. I'll get new bulbs today and proceed from there. I'm assuming some of the other tests that failed required the light path working to begin with, so I'll start there.
This happened so quickly between scans I'm wondering of something didn't physically block the light path internally. In the meantime I have someone waiting for me to complete their job... always the way when these things happen.

There are several tests that use the lamps. Did you try all?
If the job pending is urgent, you can send me a PM and can help you with the troubleshooting.

Tyler Boley
12-Mar-2016, 17:00
yes I did, I appreciate that offer very much. Let me do the work here, get through the manual suggestions, etc.. exhaust those possibilities first. If I get nowhere I may take you up on that.

Tyler Boley
14-Mar-2016, 13:39
Recap and update-
This began by the Howtek 4500, during previews, shutting down on at the "check lumens" point, reporting-

Lamp/Mirror RGB
error F719

after the usual lamp replacing etc. failed, I was able to run the diagnostics in OS9 thanks to help here. This reported, after getting a good trans lamp, a bad ref lamp no matter what lamp was in there, even a swap back and forth, with the tran lamp continuing to be good.

The ref lamp is indeed coming on, but it is subjectively dimmer, if that is relevant. Anyway, I don't this this is the main problem, I could pass startup calibration and make tran scans with a bad reflective bulb if I recall...

The main problem seems to be that it fails the IEC Processor test, and reports back "IEC Processor not found". It's not intermittent, it consistently fails when the test is looped.

I re seated all the boards and cleaned all contacts, which the manual recommends, and my experience has usually solved problems. But it still fails the test.

I'm afraid the IEC processor is over my head, and I wouldn't know exactly what is does or how to troubleshoot it, or if that is even the next best step.

Any advice is greatly appreciated, need to get this thing back on line if possible. It passes all other tests.

Thanks, Tyler

onnect17
14-Mar-2016, 17:46
Tyler, a soft lamp should not trigger the error. It's very likely your system does not have the IEC installed and that is not a problem. Actually, the first thing I do with the d4000 and sm4500 is to remove the card. It consumes a lot of power and after all I do not use sharpening in any of my workflows.

In any case you should make sure is not installed for sure. Also, if you can post some pics of the FST screen captures with the PMTs tests it could be helpful.

datro
14-Mar-2016, 18:36
Tyler,

The IEC board is the "Image Enhancement Controller" (also known as the CosMYK board). It provides the capability for CMYK conversion and sharpening on the fly. My guess is that this functionality was primarily intended for prepress environments, not how we are using the scanners today for fine art photography purposes. In fact, I'm not even sure current scanning software (e.g. Silverfast and DPL) even allow you to use this card. I use DPL with my 4500 and to my knowledge it does not do anything with the IEC or expose its functionality. The 4500 service manual says: "The IEC is directly accessed by host software and can be disabled when not needed."

Also I believe the D4000 (mostly the same as the 4500 in terms of electronics) came in two versions, one with the IEC board and one without. I'm not sure if this was the case for the 4500 but if so, and if your unit did not have the IEC board to begin with, then the diagnostic "error" is not really an error. Do you see the letters "CosMYK" printed on the front of your unit (just below the LCD window)? If so, then you have an IEC board.

In any case, since this board is optional for scanning and assuming you haven't been specifically using its functions in the past, I am guessing there is something else going on which is causing the lamp error.

Dave

Tyler Boley
14-Mar-2016, 19:01
AHHHH!!!! I was aware of that option and mine never had it.. sorry I wasted time with that test, I did not realize that's what the IEC was! So back to square one I guess...
At any rate all boards have been re seated and connectors cleaned.
The PMT tests passed, after a good trans lamp was installed, if seeing the numbers is revealing I will happily get the screen caps up nest. Thanks to you both..

Tyler Boley
14-Mar-2016, 20:02
here is the screen cap of the PMT test. 148279

onnect17
14-Mar-2016, 20:18
So the PMTs are fine. Does your main menu in the FST looks similar to the one in the PC?

148280

If so, check test number 48, to verify index. See page 6-4 of the service guide for details.

148284

onnect17
15-Mar-2016, 04:31
Tyler, I also would consider the possibility of being an issue with the SCSI. Not sure how you can set the SCSI to ASYN mode in the Mac or even trying a different SCSI card.

Tyler Boley
15-Mar-2016, 14:51
yes my menu is the same and it passes every test.. the drum position/index test passed also.
You know, the whole thing is very strange.. it was working perfectly, and it passes all the tests, yet shuts down at the lumen point of preview every time, with that same alert. Still makes me wonder about something physical on the drum, but I can't find anything.
Am I correct in assuming that if it passes the PMT tests and others, that there is nothing possibly blocking the light path inside the optics bench? I've not opened it.
Not sure about the scsi suggestion, the fact that everything is working but this one thing, and it passes all tests, makes me doubt that possibility?
At this point I'm lost, thinking of changing out the drum pads, if they get too compressed over time perhaps the light path over on the right edge could be compromised?

onnect17
15-Mar-2016, 18:34
The reason I suggested to check the SCSI is because the test included in the FST for the I/O is pretty basic. Once the scanning app starts to use the channel at full then the problems show.

In more than one occasion, I got a hardware error just to find out the problem was related to communications. Wherever test the scanner was running at the time shows as an error. So the first and easiest troubleshooting step is to reduced the speed of the SCSI channel, changing it from SYNC to ASYN, where a full handshake is performed.

Not sure how this is done in the Mac but in the PC you have access typically from the SCSI BIOS, pressing Ctrl+A when the card is searching for SCSI devices at boot time. You either should be able to select ASYN mode or (force 5MB/s speed and the option "Initiate SYNC" to NO), same thing.

I you have another SCSI card please try it. Check also for the cable with pins bent. If that happened, may be the card was damaged while the bad cable was connected.

Another point to check is the SCSI chip in the I/O card. It uses a AM33C93A in a PLCC socket, so the pins should be cleaned with a plastic safe contact cleaner. If you do so please be careful with the static. A PLCC extraction tool is ideal for the task.

It's my belief this is the hardest problem to troubleshoot with the 4500. The I/O card in the 4000 does not use a socket for that chip so there's no contact issues.

Let me know how it goes.

Tyler Boley
15-Mar-2016, 19:39
got it, thank you. I will look into the scsi issue, but finding another card will be problematic in the short term. All your other suggestions I will try.
Interestingly, it works again now, which on the one hand is good, but on the other, I'd feel much better having found the problem and dealt with it.
In the meantime I'll do all else you suggested, certainly the chip and socket contact cleaning, thanks so much for your help.

onnect17
15-Mar-2016, 20:41
Which model of SCSI card are you currently using? Perhaps I can find some spare. You should also check the auction site. Many available and pretty cheap.

datro
16-Mar-2016, 07:12
FWIW, I am dubious about chasing SCSI problems at this point, based on the available information. If the machine were giving random errors at different times, or even the same error at different times in the scanning procedure, then I might agree that it's worth looking into the communications channel. But if the lamp error is occurring always at the SAME point in doing a scan or calibration phase, then I think it is NOT SCSI or communications. Personally, I would open up the optical bench and make sure everything looks OK before pulling chips on the IOC board. I would especially check that the focus lever mechanism is working properly, since we know for sure that if the focus lever is not pushed back all the way before starting a scan, a F719 is guaranteed.

My two cents.
Dave

onnect17
16-Mar-2016, 12:57
Dave, I do not know if you missed Tyler's post about the scanner passing the PMT tests. The results show a clean path inside the optical box.

Tyler Boley
16-Mar-2016, 22:19
for now I need to button this thing up and get a lot of scans done. Thank you for all the input, I've learned a lot and I hope to get back to solving this when things slow down again. Intermittent undiagnosed problems are the worst..
Even with it working for now, there's still a problem with reflective, voltage I assume.

onnect17
19-Mar-2016, 20:30
Tyler, still thinking in other potential sources for the error you are getting.

I assume you have a "fresh" belt installed and the pulleys clean. Also, the drum speed tests with the FST needs the drum "mounted" to be useful. Sometimes the wearing in the tail stock bearing is too much and/or it lacks lubrication, adding enough drag to trigger the error.

If you can post a screen capture of the "drum speeds" test with the drum installed I can take a look in the numbers.

Tyler Boley
21-Mar-2016, 09:58
interesting, as when I began scanning yesterday I got a 702 error.. a new development. I replaced the belt, cleaned and re lubed the screw, and it's working again.
Possibly related to your point. After taking advantage of it's current health to get this work done, I'll get back to OS9 and the FST tests and report here.
Thanks again.
When it rains...

onnect17
21-Mar-2016, 10:53
interesting, as when I began scanning yesterday I got a 702 error.. a new development. I replaced the belt, cleaned and re lubed the screw, and it's working again.
Possibly related to your point. After taking advantage of it's current health to get this work done, I'll get back to OS9 and the FST tests and report here.
Thanks again.
When it rains...

Glad to hear you are back in business. Not rush with the drum speeds test. It was intended to get an idea of the belt's condition.

Take care and happy scanning!

Tyler Boley
4-Apr-2016, 16:43
still experiencing occasional occasional 719 and 702 errors, but managing to get some scans done.. New problem today- intermittent green stripes in rotation direction. I seem to recall this discussed before, any advice is appreciated, thank you! This old boy seems unhappy lately...
Tyler

onnect17
4-Apr-2016, 21:42
Can you post a crop of the image with green stripes?

Tyler Boley
5-Apr-2016, 11:41
see attached.. the crosshatch pattern is on the film, an image shot off a monitor (don't ask :). This is a transparency scan. The scanner is also now occasionally throwing up random errors, the 719 and 702 mentioned before, and yesterday I got a 715. Something definitely not happy here.
149239

onnect17
5-Apr-2016, 13:30
It seems like something is malfunctioning in the green channel. Double check all the cables connected to the cards. Run the FST tests for the PMTs and HVPS several times until it fails.

aluncrockford
5-Apr-2016, 15:02
I have also had all your scanner problems and more, jagged edges were a particular delight, the problems I found were generally caused by the lamp, alignment of the said product, and the belt. The alignment problem happened when I moved the scanner and was impossible to fix by eye, so I called in the Howtec service engineer in the UK, Pete Slynn ( http://www.pselectronics.co.uk/contact.html ) and he solved it. It might be worth getting in touch and see if he can solve your issues remotely.

datro
5-Apr-2016, 19:26
Tyler,

Any chance that quality of AC power to the scanner has changed? Have you recently moved the unit to a different outlet or changed the power cable? Do you have the unit on a UPS that provides voltage regulation (or a standalone voltage regulator)?

Dave

Tyler Boley
5-Apr-2016, 21:30
thanks all.. alignments checked, lamps, and belts have all been changed out numerous times now. The scanner has not been moved, nor the ac power been changed in any way. I don't use a UPS or any kind of regulator, but I confess I never have over the years. I'll get back into it and check connections again, and run the FST tests agin a suggested..
Intermittent problems are the worst...

Tyler Boley
6-Apr-2016, 14:46
latest FST results.. all passed repeatedly including PMTs, HVPs failed in green consistently.. not sure what that means... back to the manual after some fresh air...149284149285

datro
6-Apr-2016, 16:35
With this new FST data my guess is either a bad High Voltage Power Supply (HVPS) for the green PMT or possibly a bad VDC (Video Digital Controller) board. This is just based on my reading of various sections of the 4500 Maintenance Manual and general understanding of electronics and the electrical design of the 4500. It is NOT based on any first-hand repair experience with the 4500.

FWIW

Tyler Boley
6-Apr-2016, 17:21
thanks Dave, sounds like the earlier suggestion of checking cables and connections, particularly for that supply, would be worth doing.

onnect17
6-Apr-2016, 19:09
Try this if after checking the cables the HVPS test in the FST still fails.

(SCANNER OFF)
To verify the issue is in the channel and not the VDC, just swap a couple of colors. Looking from the rear at the VDC, the order of the connectors from left to right should be B-G-R. Swap red and green. Then do the same at the entrance of the VAA. The order here from the top down is R-G-B. Just swap the two on the top.

(SCANNER ON)
Now run the HVPS test in the FST again. The red channel should show the problem now.

(SCANNER OFF)
Swap all the cables back.

The next step is to gain access to the HVPSs under the optical box. That will require a PARTIAL removal of the optical box. Not a simple job by any means but it can be done under 30 minutes. Verify that the cables coming from the HVPSs into the botton of the optical box are properly inserted.
A couple of extra hands will make the job easier (to hold the optical box) if you decide to replace a HVPS. Otherwise remove completely the optical box. It's safer.

Good luck!

Tyler Boley
6-May-2016, 12:55
OK, after some weeks dealing with actual life, I'm back to this. I cleaned and reconnected the R, G, and B connections at the VDC, and even removed the optical box to do the same there. I still get the green channel error during the FST HVPS test, about half the time letting it loop. So I'm ready to try the wire swap above for further verification, just one question- anyone know about these connectors at the VAA? I don't want to start yanking on things if there is a trick to them. Manual says nothing. See jpeg.
150521

onnect17
6-May-2016, 13:19
The only part you have to be careful is the junction of the white cable to the connector itself. So always grab the connector to plug and unplug it, never by the cable. Same thing with ground.

Tyler Boley
6-May-2016, 17:14
after swap, ran the HSPS test with no failures in any channel. I let it loop 30 times. Guess I'll swap them back again and see where things are at now. Frustrating.

OK, after connections were returned to proper place, it again passed HSPS looping test error free. I then tired a scan with no problems. It's great it's working but the problem remains unsolved. I'm thinking some unreliable connection was "corrected" inadvertently while I was fooling around in there. The only related connections I had not previously cleaned were these at the VAA, which were just swapped twice. Would a unreliable connection there result in an HSPS error?

onnect17
6-May-2016, 19:51
Perhaps when you removed the optical box you also moved the connector with issues feeding the HV.

Tyler Boley
6-May-2016, 20:11
I got the error after moving the box and cleaning those connections though. it only stopped when I swapped leads at the VDC and VAA. I don't know, I guess I'll just get back to work...

onnect17
7-May-2016, 05:34
Remember to keep all the cables entering in the controllers (VDC, VDD, etc.) properly bundled. Not a fan of tie-wraps for this task. I think velcro does a safer job. The idea is to minimize any movement of the cables due to vibrations while the scanner is operating.

Tyler Boley
7-May-2016, 11:26
thanks for all your help. I think I'll minimally button things back up and do some more scanning, see how it goes. One last question, am I wrong to think some intermittnaat problem like this is unlikely a major component like the HVPS.. etc? I know capacitors, for example, get old, leaky, etc.. but in my experience they don't perform erratically. Not sure what else in this thing wold act so erratically other than connections, and there are myriads on this thing..

onnect17
7-May-2016, 14:16
My pleasure. Scan as much as you can. That's the best way to test it. And you are right. The problem seems more related to connections than anything else.

Thinking about reducing vibrations. Make sure the tail stock bearing is in good condition and lubricated. Also you can use 6 pads (vs 3) to support the drum.

datro
9-May-2016, 11:13
Thinking about reducing vibrations. Make sure the tail stock bearing is in good condition and lubricated. Also you can use 6 pads (vs 3) to support the drum.

Good point about minimizing vibrations to help reduce the possibility of connections problems. After I first acquired my SM4500 I was amazed at how much it vibrated laterally when doing previews, even on a VERY sturdy table/counter which had previously been used in my darkroom for my enlarger. There was very little vibration on detail scans and none on high-res scans. Obviously the sled movement during previews is much faster and the fast "start/stop" action of the stepper motor can really setup a lot of external vibration. I spent a few hours crafting and installing additional steel bracing angles on the table and it made a HUGE difference. Now the scanner is rock solid, even on previews.

Tyler, I agree that bad or flaky connections are often the cause of problems which are intermittent. I think it is likely you fixed the issue by simply removing and reconnecting the offending cable/connection.

Dave

onnect17
9-May-2016, 13:54
Just remembered another source, the drum itself. Although the dimensions of the drum for the 4500 is similar to the 8000/Premier, the drums are not interchangeable without modifications. The one for the 4500 has metal caps vs the one for 8000/Premier has plastic caps. Using a drum with plastic caps in the 4500 (without mod) will bring extra vibrations, especially during preview, which is never good for the scanner.