Film Batch Issue?

[alanmcd]

I've posted elsewhere an issue I thought related to a leak in my camera back. A possible gap in the corner of the felt which the film holders sit on when inserted. The film was overexposed in the notch corner. I've done another batch of film today after fiddling with the felt a little but I also left my dark cloth over the camera during the time I removed the dark slide.

I just wondered if this issue was a bad batch of film. Has anyone found this happen? Is it not so rare that I should consider it? Or so rare that I should keep chasing a hardware issue.

Alan

[koraks]

Depends a bit on the brand of film (some do their QC better than others), but in the vast majority of cases, the cause of issues like these are not with the manufacturer. I'd definitely keep chasing the hardware issue. As a control, develop a sheet that's not been exposed or otherwise passed through your camera to exclude any issues related with the camera (even then, it could still be faulty packaging, storage, or a light leak that occurred while loading the film).

But for completeness' sake, what film are you using and what batch/production numbers or use-by dates are mentioned?

[alanmcd]

Depends a bit on the brand of film (some do their QC better than others), but in the vast majority of cases, the cause of issues like these are not with the manufacturer. I'd definitely keep chasing the hardware issue. As a control, develop a sheet that's not been exposed or otherwise passed through your camera to exclude any issues related with the camera (even then, it could still be faulty packaging, storage, or a light leak that occurred while loading the film).

But for completeness' sake, what film are you using and what batch/production numbers or use-by dates are mentioned?

It's Ilford HP5Plus 400. Expiry SEP 2016
CAT: 162 9172 - 09AHK1C02/05-6
Unfortunately I persevered and used all 25 sheets. All had the same issue. I though it was development at first. Ruled that out. Then I thought film holder but all five holders in exactly the same way? not likely. Then I found a gap in the felt. I sort of fixed it by re-cutting the edge and rejoining the corner. I've done all the light tests I can and can't detect a leak but since I didn't test it before I tried th e fix I don't know if I fixed it or it wasn't the problem at all. They are sending me a new strip of felt but I suppose I'll just have to take a couple of shots without the dark cloth over the camera. And I won't know if it was the film batch, or my repair....
Alan

[alanmcd]

Depends a bit on the brand of film (some do their QC better than others), but in the vast majority of cases, the cause of issues like these are not with the manufacturer. I'd definitely keep chasing the hardware issue. As a control, develop a sheet that's not been exposed or otherwise passed through your camera to exclude any issues related with the camera (even then, it could still be faulty packaging, storage, or a light leak that occurred while loading the film).

But for completeness' sake, what film are you using and what batch/production numbers or use-by dates are mentioned?

It had to be either the film. Or during the time the dark slide was out of the holder. Otherwise the exposure would have been far worse than it was. Just annoying.
Alan

[vinny]

Next time, take a sheet from the box and process it.
There's a 99.9% chance the film is not at fault.

[alanmcd]

Next time, take a sheet from the box and process it.
There's a 99.9% chance the film is not at fault.

OK - that's the comfort I needed.. I'll keep the hardware issue alive.
Alan

[Tobias Key]

Could you have accidentally exposed the whole box while loading your film holders?

In my experience it is almost certainly a camera issue, try shining a torch inside the camera in a darkened room. That's the test that has always worked for me.

[alanmcd]

Could you have accidentally exposed the whole box while loading your film holders?

In my experience it is almost certainly a camera issue, try shining a torch inside the camera in a darkened room. That's the test that has always worked for me.

I don't know how I'd do that (expose the whole box). It's such a small exposure from the corner of the film. I'd have to have pulled the whole manila folder of film out, held it really tightly, then poked it into the light and flicked the stack quickly like a pack of cards on the corner. That's what it's like.

I've done the torch test now but only after I redressed the felt.
Alan

PS - torch? you can't be from the US right? Otherwise it would be flashlight....

[koraks]

Bellows are light tight and seated firmly on all corners?

[alanmcd]

Bellows are light tight and seated firmly on all corners?

Yep, I'm pretty sure this is a development issue now. I'll start a new thread.

[Willie]

How about an image so we can see what it looks like?

[alanmcd]

How about an image so we can see what it looks like?
3 raw scans here
146987

146988

146989

by way of example. I've since tried covering the camera with my dark cloth during exposure with no change. The notch side of all film is over exposed.
This is the side which is up in the MOD54.
My tank is in a temperature controlled bath during the 1 hour standing time.
The effect is identical regardless of which film holder, how long the film holder is out of the fridge, in the light, in the back of the camera, across two separate batches of film. The consistency is across all six of the films in the tank.
So I'm pretty sure it's development related.
I can't really believe that the top 1cm of developer in the tank is different (temperature) to the rest of the tank.
I can't put the MOD54 upside down because the film can slip out (up) during agitation. I can try placing the film notch down as longas emulsion is facing in.

The rest of the film comes out pretty good in terms of no streaks or runs etc which people talk about with stand development. Just the top edge.

Alan

[koraks]

Looks to me it's a narrow strip along two edges, at least that seems to be the case in the scans. I've never had this kind of unevenness due to development using a tank; in trays, the edges sometimes over develop if agitation is too excessive and/or the tray is too small. It really looks like a light leak issue to me and it's still not clear to me if it's in-camera or if it maybe happened during loading the film. Could you elaborate your film loading routine a bit more?

[alanmcd]

Looks to me it's a narrow strip along two edges, at least that seems to be the case in the scans. I've never had this kind of unevenness due to development using a tank; in trays, the edges sometimes over develop if agitation is too excessive and/or the tray is too small. It really looks like a light leak issue to me and it's still not clear to me if it's in-camera or if it maybe happened during loading the film. Could you elaborate your film loading routine a bit more?

Thanks for talking the time.
I have a Photoflex change room. I clean/blow the holders and place them in the change room with the film in the box.
I close up and open the box, get the manila folder out of the plastic bag.
Then I load each holder, both sides, I make sure the film is in the correct slot by testing how easily it moves and make sure it rests against the raised lip inside the holder, then I slowly close, re-open the holder and close it again to make sure there's no grabbing of the film. Then I close it. I have Lisco Mark II holders which have the locking button when you push the dark slide home. They are in near new condition.
Once all the holders (typically I load 3 for 6 films because that's a full development) are loaded, I close up the film (plastic bag and box) and open the chage room.
I place the holder in a ziplock bag and put them in the fridge until I go out.
About an hour before I go out, I get the film out of the fridge.
If there was a light leak in the changeroom, it would be across a large part of the film, not the edge.
I reverse this when unloading the holders into the MOD54. I place the MOD54 into the Paterson tank and close the funnel.
The film has been in the fridge for no more than a few days before I use it. I always develop as soon as I return with the six exposures. They never go back in the fridge as exposed film until I develop. This might happen when I start with color.
What else can I say?
Alan

[koraks]

Yeah, I agree that if it were a light leak in the change room, it would have been more widespread.

Maybe, given the fact that it's stand development, the problem is in development after all. When I tried stand dev with sheet film in the Mod54 I got drag marks along the long edges with bulges where the arms of the Mod54 holder were, so not of an even width or along the short edge of the film. But who knows you're running into something similar. My drag marks were of increased density, so that's similar to your experience. I concluded that agitation is used for a good reason. Plus, I found little to no benefit in stand development, so I gave up on it.

[alanmcd]

Yeah, I agree that if it were a light leak in the change room, it would have been more widespread.

Maybe, given the fact that it's stand development, the problem is in development after all. When I tried stand dev with sheet film in the Mod54 I got drag marks along the long edges with bulges where the arms of the Mod54 holder were, so not of an even width or along the short edge of the film. But who knows you're running into something similar. My drag marks were of increased density, so that's similar to your experience. I concluded that agitation is used for a good reason. Plus, I found little to no benefit in stand development, so I gave up on it.

I've found that temperature control removes a lot of variability. The drag marks to which you refer, is temperature related. I think we tended to expect stand development to be better than it could be.
I still like it for other reasons. At the moment I can fix my current issue in PP. But I suppose I'm never one to give up. I sill have faith that I can get a good clean negative.
Alan

[Tobias Key]

3 raw scans here
146987

146988

146989

by way of example. I've since tried covering the camera with my dark cloth during exposure with no change. The notch side of all film is over exposed.
This is the side which is up in the MOD54.
My tank is in a temperature controlled bath during the 1 hour standing time.
The effect is identical regardless of which film holder, how long the film holder is out of the fridge, in the light, in the back of the camera, across two separate batches of film. The consistency is across all six of the films in the tank.
So I'm pretty sure it's development related.
I can't really believe that the top 1cm of developer in the tank is different (temperature) to the rest of the tank.
I can't put the MOD54 upside down because the film can slip out (up) during agitation. I can try placing the film notch down as longas emulsion is facing in.

The rest of the film comes out pretty good in terms of no streaks or runs etc which people talk about with stand development. Just the top edge.

Alan

This looks exactly like a pinhole in the bellows or similar, doesn't look like development. I have had similar issues myself and after going through all the different checks you describe it always came back to a light leak. Sometimes they can be tiny and difficult to find but I would astounded if it was anything other than that.

[alanmcd]

This looks exactly like a pinhole in the bellows or similar, doesn't look like development. I have had similar issues myself and after going through all the different checks you describe it always came back to a light leak. Sometimes they can be tiny and difficult to find but I would astounded if it was anything other than that.

Seriously?
I can't see any hole when I inspect the bellows with a torch. How would a bellows pinhole take this effect down the edge of the negative and not spill out all over the neg?
Alan

[koraks]

Temp control may have been the issue, and if it is, all the more reason for me not to pursue stand development any further. If temperature control is that critical, I'd rather stick to more reliable development methods that don't involve very tight process parameters in return for advantages I couldn't really spot.

[Tobias Key]

The last light I had looked almost exactly like yours, but took me a while to nail down.

It depends how bright it is, how long it takes you to take a shot once the dark slide is out and how far the bellows are racked out. I was convinced I had a bad film holder, because I had an intermittent leak and drove myself mad because my camera would leak light one day and be fine the next. My bellows were only a couple of years old so they were the last thing I checked, and the first time I checked them I found nothing. A tiny hole can be harder to find than you think, but that is not to say it isn't there.

Are you extending the bellows as far as it will go and checking for holes in a pitch black room?

[alanmcd]

The last light I had looked almost exactly like yours, but took me a while to nail down.

It depends how bright it is, how long it takes you to take a shot once the dark slide is out and how far the bellows are racked out. I was convinced I had a bad film holder, because I had an intermittent leak and drove myself mad because my camera would leak light one day and be fine the next. My bellows were only a couple of years old so they were the last thing I checked, and the first time I checked them I found nothing. A tiny hole can be harder to find than you think, but that is not to say it isn't there.

Are you extending the bellows as far as it will go and checking for holes in a pitch black room?

Yes, but if it were a leak in the bellows, the light would be pretty random. Not graduated down one edge, surely
Alan

[alanmcd]

3 raw scans here
146987

146988

146989

by way of example. I've since tried covering the camera with my dark cloth during exposure with no change. The notch side of all film is over exposed.
This is the side which is up in the MOD54.
My tank is in a temperature controlled bath during the 1 hour standing time.
The effect is identical regardless of which film holder, how long the film holder is out of the fridge, in the light, in the back of the camera, across two separate batches of film. The consistency is across all six of the films in the tank.
So I'm pretty sure it's development related.
I can't really believe that the top 1cm of developer in the tank is different (temperature) to the rest of the tank.
I can't put the MOD54 upside down because the film can slip out (up) during agitation. I can try placing the film notch down as longas emulsion is facing in.

The rest of the film comes out pretty good in terms of no streaks or runs etc which people talk about with stand development. Just the top edge.

Alan

If it was a light leak from the hinge of the holder, wouldn't it show the film edge as exposed as well as the photo exposure area? I still have a dark edge along the index notch. Am I thinking correctly?

[alanmcd]

3 raw scans here
146987

146988

146989

by way of example. I've since tried covering the camera with my dark cloth during exposure with no change. The notch side of all film is over exposed.
This is the side which is up in the MOD54.
My tank is in a temperature controlled bath during the 1 hour standing time.
The effect is identical regardless of which film holder, how long the film holder is out of the fridge, in the light, in the back of the camera, across two separate batches of film. The consistency is across all six of the films in the tank.
So I'm pretty sure it's development related.
I can't really believe that the top 1cm of developer in the tank is different (temperature) to the rest of the tank.
I can't put the MOD54 upside down because the film can slip out (up) during agitation. I can try placing the film notch down as longas emulsion is facing in.

The rest of the film comes out pretty good in terms of no streaks or runs etc which people talk about with stand development. Just the top edge.

Alan

This effect is the same no matter how much time the film stands in the camera back with the dark slide removed (while I wait for the shot). So if it's happening during the the time of the shutter being open, what might be causing it?
It can't be a bellows hole because it would it would be really bad where I've waited 5-10 minutes to take the shot.
What aberration in the lens or shutter might cause this? Is that even possible?