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Scott Rosenberg
15-Mar-2005, 07:41
i don't want to start a huge flame-session here, i am simply looking for a complete list of brands represented by Bob and HP marketing.

Donald Hutton
15-Mar-2005, 07:43
See http://www.hpmarketingcorp.com/

They are all listed on the home page.

Scott Rosenberg
15-Mar-2005, 07:52
thanks, don.

all those lines, eh?

that's a real shame. i'm a huge linhof/rodenstock/heliopan fan. i'm really going to miss my TK45S and APO-Sironar-S lenses, though i doubt i'll notice any difference in arca/schneider/b+w products.

Steve Hamley
15-Mar-2005, 08:48
Folks,

When you exclude photographic products for any reason not photographic, you only (potentially) hurt yourself, although I certainly support voting with your dollars. And don't forget to add everything Mamiya USA too, who have very similar business practices as HP Marketing, this is including the Sekonic and Toyo brands.

Then there's the "country" boycotters, Shen Hao because they're Chinese, Arca because they're made in Besacon, France, Gitzo, French company, ....

Steve

Ellis Vener
15-Mar-2005, 09:06
Gitzo, French company, They are now made in italy and owned by Manfrotto --which in turn is owned by a British company.

otherwise: funny post Steve!

Donald Hutton
15-Mar-2005, 09:28
Steve

Voting with your wallet on issues you feel strongly about is the only way to go. Obviously when you reduce your own choices, you may be "hurting" yourself, but given the huge range of choices open to us, I really think it may just re-align preferences. Ultimately, if you feel strongly enough about an issue to resist supporting the company by buying it's products, chances are that a lot of other people will too. That can lead to change. I like a lot of HP Marketing's products, but will never buy any of them through HP Marketing's channels ever again. Almost all can be imported from elsewhere at lower prices and I personally have found sending items elsewhere for service to be no problem. Obviously, I would rather this business stayed within the country, but where the business practice is in my view, so un-American (and incidentally, I am pretty certain that HP Marketing is at mostly foreign owned as a Gepe group company), then I see no reason not to take my business elsewhere where it is valued and I am treated with courtesy and respect as a customer. Most of the products sold through HP Marketing in the US can be imported from elsewhere (legally) for considerably less. Their are some exceptions - HP Marketing is the sole owner of the Heliopan trademark in the USA. While I personally like Heliopan filter, I have found that there are lots of readily available substitues which in general seem to be cheaper, not only available on special order, frankly of the same quality (subjective opinion) and should you ever wish to sell them on a place like Ebay, you are unlikely to have any overzealous interfering with your auctions.

Mamiya America does in some ways behave in the same manner as HP Marketing with regard to "grey market" service. However, while they do own the Mamiya trademark in America (in the same manner as HP Marketing own the Heliopan trademark), they don't see that they should be cancelling every auction on Ebay which incorrectly (only in accordance with Ebay's rules - not law) uses the word Mamiya. So in this respect, they seem to be a little ahead of HP Marketing. Perhaps they see harassing their customers as being "bad for business"...

Paddy Quinn
15-Mar-2005, 09:40
If you are going to start an open discussion, state what is on your mind. Your coy, indirect approach serves no purpose. Iíll respond to your hint, for I think we are all trying to function with dignity within a complex and disturbing situation.

If you read the thread on TK45S knobs you will see exactly where Scott is coming from. Nothing coy about it.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/501301.html

Marfelx will apparently refuse to service any Linhof camera which was not imported thru HP - even for good money and having nothing at all to do with warranty. Presumably on instructions from HP? (though it is not clear if they are actually a part of HP or not)

Folks,

When you exclude photographic products for any reason not photographic, you only (potentially) hurt yourself, although I certainly support voting with your dollars. And don't forget to add everything Mamiya USA too, who have very similar business practices as HP Marketing, Mamiya (who have had their knuckles firmly rapped over similar actions) this is including the Sekonic and Toyo brands.

On the contrary it is the monopolistic and protectionist actions of such distributors as HP which are doing the damage.

Additionally we should not forget that grey market products are legal - the camera distributors lost that battle badly a long time ago now - though they would try and persuade us otherwise.

Further, I wouldn't be suprised if the actions of HP/Marflex on this issue of refusing to service equipment constitute a restriction of trade and are hovering on the verge of legality, if not outright falling over the edge into it. If I used Linhof equipment I would certainly consider a complaint to the appropriate Federal regualtory/trade agency, which might well garner a useful response. I have seen it happen very effectively in other similar areas.

Neal Wydra
15-Mar-2005, 09:56
Members,

May I ask what these business practices are? I have not attempted to sell any items on ebay, but I purchase there regularly and would like to know how my purchases might be affected. I have had no problem finding ebay listings for items made by Helipoan, Rodenstock and Mamiya.

Thanks in advance,

Donald Hutton
15-Mar-2005, 10:14
Here are two recent examples (read right down through the threads). Do a search here and on photo.net and you will observe a pattern of behaviour.

http://largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/501301.html

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/500658.html

Max Pope, Jr.
15-Mar-2005, 12:01
I have just finished reading the previous thread about Scott and HP Marketing.

Hp will reap what it sows. They are selling branded products. These products are the same whether they are sold here or abroad. Products whether purchased new or used all reflect on the brand. Products that do not work and are not supported in any fashion by their manufacturer will harm the brand and over time will diminish the brand which is the real value. Hp attitude taken towards its potential customers will also diminish the brand.

Some of the the products sold by HP cost thousands. When somebody puts out thousands, resale of this item may or should be contemplated. These tactics used by Hp will if known by a prospective purchaser will lower the purchase price if there is a purchase at all. Nobody is going to take the time to check.

Hp is in competition with other companies but also used products including its own. In these times with everybody heading toward digital, the used market is generally the most efficient method of heading into large format. New products usually would come with experimentation with used products. If you determine that one brand, not Hp does not support its used products because they were purchased legally but without a cut to their US distributor, then when the new purchase comes where are you going to buy. Obviously, Scott has made a decision.

The businesses from which I make repeat buys and talk about favorably with others are businesses that back up their products with a no questions asked policy and take pride in producing a product that does not need a lot of support. One of the problems here is that Hp is not the manufacturer and there is not the kind of pride that is needed to continue the brand forward because does not make them.

HP is just short sighted. The companies that actually own the brand names need to contacted by everyone who has had a bad experience with HP and maybe Hp's distribution contract will be just as short.

Steve Hamley
15-Mar-2005, 12:39
Folks,

I had not kept up with the TK45S thread until referenced in this thread, and certainly understand how Scott feels. I'd feel the same way.

At the same time, I also know professional photographers that if they buy new, don't hesitate to pay the HP Marketing or Mamiya USA premium. The primary customers of HP marketing and Mamiya USA are clearly perceived to be working pros, not advanced hobbyists or fine art photographers, and they've constructed a business model to support those professionals, which includes fast turn around on good quality service for those who paid that premium.

In recent thread, Bob Salomon stated that the premium for Linhof-branded lenses was 200 - 400%. I know more than one pro who bought Linhof-branded lenses new but know of no one buying them who didn't practice photography as a primary occupation.

It is a model that penalizes those who cannot defray or justify that premium as a business expense, but it isn't necessarily wrong - even though it basically subsidizes professionals at the expense of non-professionals.

Again, vote with your dollars as we all do, but I really can't criticize HP Marketing and Mamiya USA for their overall business model to support a certain clientele, although going after folks selling new filters on eBay seems a bit "over the top". And there are always solutions for problems, they're just different from what we're used to.

Steve

Paul Butzi
15-Mar-2005, 13:14
As Steve points out, HP Marketing are free to pursue any business model they please. Steve suggests that this model shafts non-pro photographers primarily because it caters only to the pro.

I'd disagree. Bob is saying that Marflex (the corporate address for Marflex is the same as that of HP Marketing) will refuse to service any product which HP Marketing distributes in the US but which was not imported into the US by HP Marketing. Note that we're not discussing warranty service, here, which is what you pay a premium for. We're discussing out of warranty service.

That's not a matter of catering to professionals. It's a matter of protecting a monopoly on distribution. Sure, it's legal. Marflex/HP Marketing are free to refuse to do repairs on some cameras for whatever reason they like. And protecting the distribution monopoly by using the leverage of owning the only factory authorised service facility is probably legal.
But that doesn't mean that I think it's the behavior of a company I'd like to do business with.

Does that mean that I'm going to take my TK and get rid of it? No. I own the camera, I use it, I like it.

But it does mean that when someone asks if they should buy one, I'll suggest that they avoid enriching HP Marketing. Same thing for Rodenstock products, and the same thing for other brands that HP Marketing represents.

Will that hurt HP Marketing? Maybe, maybe not. Last year, 10,000 people visited my website looking for information on Rodenstock lenses, which HP marketing distributes in the US. Last year, some 3000 people visited my web site specifically to read my review of the Linhof TK45s. My web page lands in the first page of results returned for both products by Google. I get a fair bit of email on both subjects from people who visit my web site. How many Rodenstock lenses are sold in the US each year? How many Technikardans? Can I make a real impact to HP Marketing's bottom line? Maybe, maybe not. But it's worth noting that my website ranks higher in the google returns for those products than does the Rodenstock web site, the Linhof website, or HP Marketing's web site.

HP Marketing are faced with being the sole distributors of a bunch of products in a market that is shrinking fast. The global economy and the internet mean that it might not make any difference to me whether I buy locally or not (except in price) or get it serviced locally or not (overnight fedex times to Marflex in New Jersey are the same as overnight fedex times to Germany). Can HP really afford to do business in a way that alienates me?

As you said, it's their right to choose how to do business. Likewise, it's my right to decide where to spend my dollars, and what to say about their products and their business practices.

Mark Twain once suggested that it was unwise to argue with someone who buys ink by the gallon. HP Marketing's problem is that their business practices are rooted in the 1950's, and in 2005, the prevalence of the Internet means that even a guy like me effectively buys ink by the gallon. And it also means that, unlike 1950, in 2005, it's pretty easy for me to do business with someone in Germany directly. Why not cut out the middle man?

Scott Rosenberg
15-Mar-2005, 13:25
paul, don, patty, max, steve, and anyone i may have missed, thanks for voicing your sentiments. i'm glad to see i'm not alone in not taking issue with the way HP is doing things. we seem to have two threads running concurrently, so instead of explaining myself again, i'll simply paste my comments from the other thread here. hopefully, this will clarify my decisions.

kerry, et al...

firstly, i completely understand HP's policy. i may not agree with them, but nobody at HP asked for my opinion. the bottom line is that i'm not trying to hurt HP here, i am simply choosing not to support them through direct financial contribution or exposure. i made a decision not to buy my camera through HP's channels, and it is their policy not to recognize the camera. while seemingly asinine to me, as they say, those be the rules. i don't have my car serviced at the dealership i bought it in, but that doesn't keep them from taking my money everytime i need to have service done. no, i'm not asking for the camera to be repaired under warranty, and yes, i would GLADLY pay for services rendered. why HP marketing chooses not to open that channel of income is beyond me.

their position seems a thinly veiled way of forcing people to purchase through their channels, when it is perfectly legal to do otherwise. just the same, it is perfectly legal for HP to decide not to service cameras brought in through alternative channels. i find this to be somewhat bullying and monopolistic and i absolutely refuse to support a company that operates this way. kerry, i realize that i have not yet given HP one red cent through this transaction and though you may feel that i should not fret over such things and just go out and shoot, i don't feel that way. support comes in many forms, and i refuse to be an advocate for a company whose practices i find inexcusable.

kerry, when you say, "By keeping his camera, he is not "supporting" HP Marketing as he never gave them any money in the first place" you are failing to realize that there are many ways to support a company, beyond direct financial compensation. i am truly surprised to see this from you... how many 110 Super Symmar-XL, 150 APO-Sironar-S, 210 APO-Symmar, 240 Fuji-A, etc, lenses have been purchased as a result of your future classics page?

to illustrate, i was out shooting with the TK45S last thursday and an older couple approached me asking "That's a beautiful camera... what kind is it". this is not uncommon, as i'm sure many of you have experienced similar things. "It's a linhof," i replied, "and it's a wonderful camera". I don't know who he was or what his intentions were... he may have gone straight home and ordered a TK45S. this may sound outlandish, but I am often approached while shooting, and have made the decision not to use the HP products. there are options out there every bit as good, some better. now when someone approaches me in the field and asks what that beautiful camera is, i will gladly tell them it's an Arca Swiss and the finest camera i've ever used.

no matter what my broker tells me, i will not own stock in nor buy product from a company with poor environmental policy. these are decisions i make for reasons i feel strongly about. if i feel that the policies HP marketing enforce, though it is completely within their rights to do so, are reprehensible. as such i can not simply go out and take some pictures and stop worrying.

David A. Goldfarb
15-Mar-2005, 13:27
I don't see what the big deal is really. We live in a world where international communication, shipping, and banking makes it easy for us to shop anywhere for the best price. Doing so, we can calculate the risk that we might need international service for our international purchase, and how much inconvenience we are willing to tolerate for the savings resulting from the international purchase. We use the same means of communication, shipping, and banking to facilitate the international service that we used to facilitate the international purchase.

If the factory is willing to service a product that in general doesn't require a great deal of service, what's the big deal about sending it back to the factory? A difference of $30 in shipping cost? A few extra days travel? If that inconvenience is intolerable, then that's a reason to own a backup, and perhaps also to choose the convenience of the local distributor over the savings of the international purchase.

Capocheny
15-Mar-2005, 13:45
Well said, David... I couldn't agree with you more!

Cheers

Mike Cockerham
15-Mar-2005, 13:56
Companies refusing to repair grey market items are very common, Nikon, Canon, Bogen, Metz, Chrysler, most of the time the refusal is based on warranty issues, gray market items carry international warranty verses US warranty. These items were not intended for the US market so the company has no responsiblity to repair a product that was not brought in thru their system. they are tring to help your local dealers stay in business.

Mike

tim atherton
15-Mar-2005, 14:09
"Companies refusing to repair grey market items are very common, Nikon, Canon, Bogen, Metz, Chrysler, most of the time the refusal is based on warranty issues, gray market items carry international warranty verses US warranty. These items were not intended for the US market so the company has no responsiblity to repair a product that was not brought in thru their system. they are tring to help your local dealers stay in business."

However, the main issue here has moved on from warranty repairs. I can't recall ever having come across a company - photographic, musical instrument, electronics, fountain pens, watches, kitchen equipment, surveying equipment or whatever that has ever refused to repair one of their products at their authorised repair facility for hard cash - whatever its source of origin.

When I moved to N America 16 years ago I brought many such items with me - over the years since, many have been sent for servicing out of warranty at their various authorized repair facilities. I've never once been asked where the item was purchased or to prove I imported them "legally" - they have just done the repairs and I have paid the bill. It's good customer service.

I also had a Lecia M6 that was only a year old, obtained from Leica UK and which was dropped on one corner shortly after I arrived with the rewind getting damaged. Leica Canada (whoever it was at the time) repaired it without question under warranty - noting the warranty was from the UK, "but of course they would honour it". Again - good customer service

Kerry L. Thalmann
15-Mar-2005, 15:02
these are decisions i make for reasons i feel strongly about. if i feel that the policies HP marketing enforce, though it is completely within their rights to do so, are reprehensible. as such i can not simply go out and take some pictures and stop worrying.

Scott,

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly in the other thread. I am not suggesting you support a company whose practices offend you. I'm just confused about how continuing to own a camera that was not purchased through HP Marketing's channels is considered supporting HP Marketing.

But then, it's not for me to decide. If it makes you feel bad to use the camera, by all means sell it and move on. Life's too short. Large format photography is supposed to be fun (or at the very least fulfilling and uplifting).

Kerry

Scott Rosenberg
15-Mar-2005, 15:03
micheal, go back and read what i posted again. carefully. i never implied that hp was obligated to repair the camera. i am not angry with hp nor linhof. they have rules in place for their own reasons and as a result of a decision i made i am now subject to their policies. i take no issue with that. as you said, i had a choice as to where to buy my camera from. that decision was all mine and i hold myself alone responsible for the consequences. i have no problems with that whatsoever. i simply don't care for their practices and choose not to be an advocate of their products. end of story.

i think it's a little presumptuous of you to say who my personal boycott will and will not help... it will help me sleep, that's for sure.

Scott Rosenberg
15-Mar-2005, 15:28
no worries, kerry. there's a lot of words being thrown around here today. the way i see it is when i'm out shooting, i am, in a small way, representing the companies that i use. people very regularly come up and ask me about the camera, lenses, film, etc. as such, when i tell folks that i'm shooting with a linhof, i am supporting hp marketing, as the person might go home and buy something through HPM. it may be a 1:1,000,000,000,000 thing, but i never support companies whose policies i disagree with - photography or otherwise. never. there are other cameras/lenses/filters i can enjoy just as much.

bob, please take no umbrage by any of this. i respect the job you do and the contributions you make to this forum. i am simply choosing to shop elsewhere. i understand your organization has rules and am that when i use certain products that i subject to them. i am not urging others to do the same. i am not trying to hurt hp. i am simply choosing to not to use those products.

Kerry L. Thalmann
15-Mar-2005, 15:39
the way i see it is when i'm out shooting, i am, in a small way, representing the companies that i use.

So when they ask, "Is that a Hasselblad?", just tell them"Yes, yes it is".

Sorry. I get asked that constantly when I'm shooting in touristy areas - usually by men trying to impress the ladies in their company.

Kerry

Scott Rosenberg
15-Mar-2005, 16:50
So when they ask, "Is that a Hasselblad?", just tell them"Yes, yes it is".

Ha-Ha-Ha
that's the number one question i get, too! in this order:
1. Is that a hasselblad?
2. What sort of camera is that?
3. Look at how small my digicam is... why don't you just buy one of these?
4. Will you take our picture?

J. P. Mose
15-Mar-2005, 17:14
Kerry and Scott...I have run into this problem too. In crowded NYC, with my Hasselblad, I was asked, "Is that a Superachromat or are you just happy to see me?" - usually by woman trying to make their man jealous.

J. P. Mose
15-Mar-2005, 17:17
I mean "women trying to make their man (or men) jealous!"

God...I have to avoid responding to this site after drinking Merlot!

Henry Ambrose
15-Mar-2005, 17:19
Amazing thread.

Scott,

HP marketing or Marflex owes you nothing!

Take/send your camera back to the dealer you bought it from and get it serviced at the factory or where ever they can get it done.

Part of the price we all pay for any product is to cover warranty and repair service. You didn't pay anything to HP or Marflex for this. Why do you think they owe you anything? You saved some money on the purchase and now you miss the convenience of domestic US service that you did not pay for. Its not HPs fault you are unhappy.

Jorge Gasteazoro
15-Mar-2005, 17:27
Take/send your camera back to the dealer you bought it from and get it serviced at the factory or where ever they can get it done.



No dealer, the camera was bought from a private person on e bay in Germany. Hard to return to the dealer in this circumstances....



You are right, they dont owe any of us anything..neither do we owe them any loyatly, and we certainly have the right to voice the opinion in the matter here.

Scott Rosenberg
15-Mar-2005, 17:35
Amazing thread.


henry, did you actually bother to read any of it?


HP marketing or Marflex owes you nothing!

1. i never claimed they did.


Take/send your camera back to the dealer you bought it from and get it serviced at the factory or where ever they can get it done.

2. you have missed the entire point of this thread.

You didn't pay anything to HP or Marflex for this. Why do you think they owe you anything?

please seen number one above.


You saved some money on the purchase and now you miss the convenience of domestic US service that you did not pay for. Its not HPs fault you are unhappy.

please see nuber two above.

David A. Goldfarb
15-Mar-2005, 17:35
Linhof factory service info here--

http://www.linhof.de/english/service/reparatur.html#

Jim Rice
15-Mar-2005, 19:00
I hate threads like these. If Bob was within his legal rights to stop the importation of the Heliopan product, then he has the right. If you don't like it talk to Tom DeLay. Bob provides information useful to this forum, and while I understand that it is slanted toward his business interests, it IS accurate and quite possibly unavailable from anyone else here. I love this forum, but I have serious issues with this "every now and again, let's get pissy with a contributor". I think the forum would have been improved with Ron Wisner's presence, but he was relentlessly pounded by the zealots (and I understand their itches). If we could try to not put folks who have devoted their careers to our medium out of business, I suspect that we as a whole would be better off.

Jim Rice
15-Mar-2005, 19:19
Then we should all agree to be pissy toward Bob, Ron and Steve. I'm certain that it will help the forum out immeasurably.

Jim Rice
15-Mar-2005, 19:57
Okay, so now I'm being pissy, and I formally repent.

Eve Kendal
15-Mar-2005, 20:13
Once again I am amazed at the attitude of HP Marketing. Looking at the link above I have to question that most of the products they sell are even relavent today to all but a very limited specialized market. Yet they seem to go out of their way to alienate a very small and getting smaller community. Sounds like the last desperate gasps of a dying business.

Scott I can understand how you feel, but it is not all that bleak, used photographic items are cheap and plentiful. As for new I like Schneider much better myself. There are many choices out there in the free world, don't look back.

Kirk Gittings
16-Mar-2005, 00:10
Kerry said:

"So when they ask, "Is that a Hasselblad?", just tell them"Yes, yes it is". "

Very Funny, I have actually done exactly that except it was in Santa Fe shooting rich peoples multi-million dollar houses. For commercial shooting I use an old Calumet Wide Field ($175 used) which I have had powder coated black. "What are you shooting, a Hassleblad?" What else?

Bob._3483
16-Mar-2005, 00:21
Hey, I have a solution: get your congressman to agitate for the US to join the European Union (a.k.a. the E.E.C.) - then this would be anti-competitive practice and therefore illegal as any warranty in one EU country must be honoured in another....

Just trying to be helpfull...

Cheers, Bob.

Pete Watkins
16-Mar-2005, 00:50
'cmon Bob, the EEC has enough problems worrying about straight bananas without having to sort out the problems in the US.

Dan Fromm
16-Mar-2005, 07:08
Ils sont fous, ces americains.

Ellis Vener
16-Mar-2005, 09:15
Scott,

You write:

: " i am not trying to hurt hp. i am simply choosing to not to use those products.

But at the top of this thread you also wrote:

"thanks, don.



all those lines, eh?



that's a real shame. i'm a huge linhof/rodenstock/heliopan fan. i'm really going to miss my TK45S and APO-Sironar-S lenses, though I doubt i'll notice any difference in arca/schneider/b+w products."

No offense meant here. I understand your position: I too question the commercial wisdom of HP Marketing/Marflex (etc.) in not agreeing to take on your repair work since you are willing to pay for it. This is also information that you could have found by using any internet search engine, but instead you decided to make your beef public.

So you seem to want to have your moral high ground cake and eat it too.

Have you considered that perhaps the problem is not that HP Marketing forced Linhof's parent company to agree that in exchange for the marking rights to in the USA, that perhaps Linhof (or the parent company) made this a clause in the distribution contract to protect their markets in other parts of the world like Asia or Europe, etc. . Currency values go up and down. Right now it might be cheaper for someone in France to buy a TK45s from an authorized USA dealer than from an authorized French dealer. Two years from now year, who knows (besides maybe Alan Greenspan)? My point is that contracts like this are written up and agreed to by both parties.

Paul Butzi
16-Mar-2005, 09:43
"This is also information that you could have found by using any internet search engine"

Actually, I've been trying to find decent info on this via the web search engines, and haven't really met with much success except for finding similar threads in various forums.

" but instead you decided to make your beef public."

And what, that's bad? I think you're wrong. The best thing to do in a situation like this is drag it out into the open.

If this policy is dictated by Linhof all Bob has to do to deflect the heat is state that's so publicly.

HP Marketing are free to run their business as they please. By the same token, customers are free to kvetch in public, loudly. I don't see a problem on either side. Companies choose how to run their business, customers vote with their wallet.

If a company doesn't like the fact that customers who complain can now voice their irritation to tens of thousands of potential customers - well, tough.

Ellis Vener
16-Mar-2005, 10:31
If this policy is dictated by Linhof all Bob has to do to deflect the heat is state that's so publicly.

I'm not tryingto deflect any heat from Bob or HP, but he may not be at liberty to iscuss the contract between HP & the Linhof mothership. I don't know what the story is either but I am rying to point outthat there may be another aspect that none of you seem to have considered.

"And what, that's bad? I think you're wrong.

I didn't say it was bad. I think it is healthy. But I did feel obliged to point out a certain disconnect in what Scott is doing. He says he doesn't want to hurt HP yet if he didn't wantto influence other people's thinking towards buying the products that HP Marketing imports into the USA why would he make a public stink about this, especially i forum that has had several threads and posts that are anti HP marketing? Are you saying that I am behaving badly by pointing out this inconsistency between what his words are and his apparent actions by starting this thread are?

Steve Hamley
16-Mar-2005, 12:20
Paul and Ellis both have good points, and I have noticed Bob Salomon's silence here, which could indicate some Business Sensitive information on which he cannot comment (or just good sense). Bob's been accused of all sorts of faults in the forums, but I think we can all agree that bashfulness isn't one of them...

Steve

Scott Rosenberg
16-Mar-2005, 14:02
my goodness, i certainly hope tom agrees to my plea to nix both this thread and the one about the focusing knob, as they have gone in directions I never, NEVER intended. for this, my large format friends, i am sorry.


He says he doesn't want to hurt HP yet if he didn't want to influence other people's thinking towards buying the products that HP Marketing imports into the USA why would he make a public stink about this...

ellis, not wanting to hurt a company and simply choosing not to support them are two VERY different things. i honestly don't see how you can take this thread as a desire to hurt HPM. if openly discussing a companies business practices can be construed as trying to hurt them, then maybe the company should reassess their policies.

look, i choose to purchase my power from green mountain energy because i like the fact that their power comes from less-polluting sources like wind, water, solar, biomass, geothermal, and natural gas. if i tell people this, am i trying to hurt the other power companies? how about if i tell people from where the other power companies get their power... does that mean i'm trying to hurt them? or am i simply being an advocate for green mountain? i am making the decision not to use products represented by HPM because i disagree with how they do business, and in saying so, am not trying to hurt one's business any more than when i said i buy my power from green mountain. i am choosing not to be an advocate for their wares. i am simply making others aware of my decision, just like when i told you that i use green mountain energy.

please read the original question here:
i don't want to start a huge flame-session here, i am simply looking for a complete list of brands represented by Bob and HP marketing.
i sincerely meant that and regret what this thread has grown into.

Peter Galea
16-Mar-2005, 15:14
Scott, if you really want a list of brands represented by HP Marketing click on: http://www.hpmarketingcorp.com.
Or, you could actually phone them at 1-800-735-4373, and they will pay for the call.

Peter Galea
16-Mar-2005, 15:28
I see now that Don posted the link in the second post. Sorry, I just couldn't understand why there were 40 other posts after the question was answered.

tim atherton
16-Mar-2005, 15:32
My, how disingenuous...

Scott Rosenberg
16-Mar-2005, 17:24
i surrender.

it seems that there are some among you that have decided i acted with malice, and for lack of comprehension or refusal to accept my explanation, are unwilling to change your opinions. believe what you will... i surrender.

what did Carlyle know anyway...

If a person speaks with genuine earnestness the thoughts, the emotion and the actual condition of their own heart, others will listen because we all are knit together by the tie of sympathy.

Jim Rice
16-Mar-2005, 19:25
Scott, please believe that I was not passing judgement on you. It's just that this is one of the most civil forums out here, and I tend to be faily zealous about defending that. Thankfully the moderaters agree, and a couple of my responses were in response to a contribution that was pulled, which renders them a little silly. Please accept my appologies if I have not been unclear about all of this.

Jim Rice
16-Mar-2005, 19:31
*if I have not been clear

Melchi M. Michel
16-Mar-2005, 21:34
Ellis,

I'm glad that Scott made this post. It is great information for potential buyers of the products represented by HP, regardless of whether or not you agree with their marketing practices. In making the decision to buy through a US or foreign retailer, for example, this piece of information might tip the scale toward purchasing domestically (assuming you have no problem with HP's business practices), in case any repairs should ever be necessary. Furthermore, this is not a question that would even have occurred to me to ask. As a result of this post, people who decide to buy (or not to buy) Linhof or Rodenstock products will at least know what to expect.

Ellis Vener
17-Mar-2005, 09:44
Scott,

I've been meaning to say this for a few days: you have a great website. Not just great images but it is also organized well and it is well designed to boot.

I don't think you acted with bad intent. It just seems there was a contradiction inherent in your stance -- and there are plenty of people on this and other LF oriented internet forums who are happy to cry "boycott HP Marketing!" at the slightest provocation. We never see any representative from other "big" LF companies like ILFORD, KODAK, SCHNEIDER, SINAR, NIKON, FUJINON, HORSEMAN or TOYO. occassionally Martin Voght from ARCA-SWISS will directly respond to a question about their gear, and occassionaly someone from POLAROID will answer questions -- but that is about it. Maybe the others think that if they did start to participate they'd get the same kind of shellacing y'all are all to happy to give Bob.

Jorge Gasteazoro
17-Mar-2005, 10:11
I disagree Ellis, I dont understand why making a comment about HP Marketing and their bad policies represents an attack on Bob. I might be wrong but I dont think Bob is the owner of HPM. I suspect if he was, he would do things differently given his always generous spenditure of time in this forum answering questions.

As I said before, I think he got a bad wrap about the E bay/Heliopan thing, the guy is only doing his job. But part of his job is to also listen to customers and perhaps show these comments to his bosses. Shouldn't customer input have some value to them?

I dont know why we dont see any other reps on the forum, but I suspect it has nothing to do with fear of being shellacked, most likely they just dont have the time/money/resources or simply dont care. They know we are a captive audience. Lets also remember that Linhof does not have a rep here, it is the ditribuitor that participates. Lets not think of Bob and HPM as a single undivisible entity. Bob is a great resource to this forum and we are lucky that he is as knowledgeable about Linhof as the German guys, but HPM and their policies leave a lot to be desired from the non professional customer point of view.

J. P. Mose
17-Mar-2005, 10:33
Jorge....I think you summed it up nicely!

Ellis Vener
17-Mar-2005, 11:40
Jorge, You make excellent points that I agree with. Companies need to listen to their customers. I know for a fact that all photo product reps pay more attention to certain customers comments more attentively than to others and some very good ideas they just can't do anything with because of who is upstream from them or the structure of the company.

If you want to make an impression of these people, something they can show to their boss: write a real letter - not a forum post, not an e-mail, a real letter with a stamp on it and an envelope around it, and put it in the mail. That will show them or whoever they have to get the attention of that you have taken more than the minimum effort it takes to bitch on a forum.

Jorge Gasteazoro
17-Mar-2005, 12:01
Not to be argumentative Ellis, but do you really think that a single letter from a guy in Mexico is going to make a lot of impact at HPM management? Specially if we weight the single letter against the more than 20 responses here which cannot be taken out of context. It takes just as much effort to read all the responses and come up with a coherent response, which then can be printed by the rep than it does to write a single letter and post it.

If I was a sales rep I would rather see all the opinions both pro and con in one single venue than to receive a single letter. Besides, rarely do people write to praise or offer reasons why they are doing a good job.

WHat I really see in this thread is that almost overwhelmingly most agree that HPM's policy is a bad one, yet some like you have confused this issue with it being an attack on Bob. I also have to take into account that you make your livelyhood out of photography an as such you dont have a beef with these kind of practices. The rest of us who cannot deduct the cost of a new camera from our taxes are basically screwed. From your response it is clear you have no problem with the way HPM does bussiness, expressing the contrary opinion in this forum is not "bitching" IMO.

Ellis Vener
17-Mar-2005, 18:46
Jorge,

Wel it will probably get read whereas a bunch of people talking to each other on an internet forum is more likely to be thought of as just punters ranting.

Jorge Gasteazoro
17-Mar-2005, 20:28
Wel it will probably get read whereas a bunch of people talking to each other on an internet forum is more likely to be thought of as just punters ranting.



Given that this is not the first time a discussion like this has ocurred, you are most likely right.

Scott Rosenberg
18-Mar-2005, 11:39
jim...
absolutely no need for apologies. in this faceless form of communication, it is at times difficult to asses ones sincerity, which can result in misunderstandings.

ellis...
thanks for the kind words. that is really high praise coming from some one with your experience and talent. i agree that bob gets roughed up around here quite a bit - it's really a testament to him that he continues to contribute at all! it would be nice to see more reps on the forum giving straight answers to our questions. i think that would take some of the heat off bob, as there would be an equally qualified counter-point to his HPM-centric point.

scott

Bernard Kaye
29-Mar-2007, 17:36
It is a complex commercial, money invested and legal concept, perhaps akin to grey market in say, certain German cars. It costs HP or any other distributor much money to set up a dealer network, inventory of replacement parts, computerize everything, contractually promise dealers whatever protection available against grey market folks who do not share in the sizeable investment, and advertising, follow-up, and taking responsibility to use only factory parts, paying for training repair persons: cool it! Bernie Kaye, who wants a Zeiss Universal Jewel 9 x 12cm. Folding Plate Camera.

Ted Harris
29-Mar-2007, 19:40
Bernard, you need to look at the dates ... this thread's last post was two years ago.

Sal Santamaura
30-Mar-2007, 09:39
Bernard, you need to look at the dates ... this thread's last post was two years ago.And what has changed in the last two years? In this case, I don't see anything wrong with adding to an archived thread. It beats starting a new, duplicative one!

George Kara
30-Mar-2007, 19:15
This site is heavily biased towards those reps/manufacteres that are friendly to this website. Many of you here have gone on and on slamming this company (HP)without any intervention by the powers that be.

So just remember - don't insult a company that has connections here.

I bitched about the crappy response from betterlight and got absolutley slammed by the friends, advocates, and employees of betterlight. After I was blackjacked, had my mouth sewn shut, and my shutter-finger broken, the thread was frozen shut. There was no question that I had crossed the line.

I dared to question the response from this company and was told I was spoiled, selfish and throwing my virtual weight around.

So please godfather of this site. List the companies that are clearly in and out of your favor. This thread is truly a load of crud and yet everyone who wants to cut off a piece of HP's ass is clearly encouraged.

I dont know HP and havent purchased anything from them. If you dont like their service dont buy from them.

Why is this thread in the new products category? Shouldnt this be in some unregulated space?

George