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RSalles
22-Jan-2016, 19:06
I'm searching for uncoated lenses which have been affected with haze. Do you remember that lens you use to love to photograph with, or have acquired by a bargain price, but finally had a severe fog that make it impossible to register an image without that sea of haze between the subject and your preferred film? Yes, exactly! Sleeping for ages inside a drawer, unusable by fog... So, maybe there is some hope for a new life to that Voigtlaender, Cooke, Dallmeyer, Wray London or Emil Busch piece of glass.

But, the lens I'm talking about must fulfil some points:
- Not cracked, nor broke, not severely infested by fungus, have no elements separation at large scale, has to be uncoated (as the haze cleaning can remove the coatings), must can be disassembled (no crossing threads), if in a shutter, have to be in a shape which can be removed from the shutter.

It's a better then nothing service: I'll ask you to send me some pictures of the lens, mainly showing the optical elements affected by haze. After that I'll give you an estimate for the costs to fix it, and let you know the time I'll have to work on it. As son as the lens are in my hands I'll contact you immediately to let you know what you can expect as a cleaning service for the lens as a final result.

I'm a very responsible person, have more then 10 years fixing issues with lenses for me and for friends, mainly not AF lenses. If I arrive to the conclusion that, after a close inspection of the lens it can not be fixed by me, I'll return it to you, and you pay the shipping fees. After all, it doesn't hurt to give it a try to that wonderful glasses which you have lost hope in fixing it.

Latter I'll offer also the possibility to send some lens for coating in Russia - some lenses which can be fully disassembled, as they only accept the optical elements: the coating is made in the Zavod factory in Krasnogorsk - KMZ, near Moscow.

It would be great if a given lens could be cleaned, sent to the coating service and back to you in a mint state!

If you're interested, drop me a line in PVT and we can go ahead from that.

I'll try tomorrow to post some pictures of a lens that was given to me by a friend, have arrived with a very big amount of haze in the front and back elements, and I'm finishing the cleaning service. I'll take some shots and post here as it's the biggest lens I have worked with removing haze until now: a Dallmeyer Pentac 2.9/8".

Mods, I'm not sure if this is the right forum area for a service offer, but if it's not, please do not delete the thread, just move it to the right place, ok?

Thank you,

Renato

Oren Grad
22-Jan-2016, 20:39
Moved to Resources.

Product and service offerings should never be posted in the main discussion sections. Also, you should check with the moderators before posting anything that amounts to an advertisement.

EdSawyer
23-Jan-2016, 10:48
I have a couple pentacs with some haze, how did the one you worked on turn out? The haze seems to be on the rear element.

RSalles
23-Jan-2016, 18:52
Ed,

Conversation started with the forum mods, I'll not continue here until receive a sign from them, but I will send you a PVT message,

Cheers,

Renato

RSalles
23-Jan-2016, 19:58
Everything talked and questions answered, so, I'll continue from where I was.
I'll try tomorrow to take some pics of the last lens I'm cleaning and until where I have gone so far,

Cheers,

RSalles
25-Jan-2016, 07:32
Dallmeyer Pentac pre-cleaning - there are full resolution shots in this link: https://goo.gl/photos/PCyBhKrNSBFXk1hU8

Pre-cleaning Front:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Oru9VtHNZnC-mLVxcUdjl11Losy3kYHIYkTwl9W31JtcVfTs33rCzf9RV0dsOTZOarOAhL8OWGLxx0trdcHzn3kuw_2lApyYz0VVUUEsXLPR5BFrZaVGtKtSVvBG9VTLBoBuB_J7v1ZnOjSRLWBofDTsmHiXXq4EPeOYzRG7Ls1TWVqKzHOQ6omUAVVbOkvqe-weATUXkNVvUXVfcd0sdwZaGsD71k7JzCiRCjLamvgPCUII3P3RpT2jMbyZ-6EXBg6spj8yu4g7y2tYc3CSxj27dYUJt0Vljk0Ur11V6XDEGdgEnq22aDjXULJsZbiLj5ydhSP9T3L8Hsj-ksxuByE84ZEZ1sBOEVsfDqolmK9v4AnloI6q9wjXmfN26oj2hPdc6P6yaGaicOBsGjoJOuYwSteLOMrp9cSq_bZSqyrCJKTTvjVI68OSWMB1ZF3WlGq19EtHN3W9ewpyeWVZDXwMc_8mNWSs4KHpNTDrlaLbAhc0zFK13AHe_m-tTuvhJ3FflxYEiEubIHOLu7yFziDSQdIfTdr0jK9PXQ0pQaB_fuIp8g2IYq0MTj3avAyQ8CdE=w611-h610-no

Back:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/N47J_FvsilOB0I-6k9r6tx7aSjBOH_bjr2vMiNSXsGpLRyW7FjoSDafGW8CKiRXdo_w75zAVrVXRUEQnRNTtR5itaosPWp92-NrfRYSt7j8ItiVA5NgUgDzrBAcyJ89tZtuQvXn_iKcUoJDcS_h5Ht0xx3tHODCG8hyimStSJA-YQR_FfLiG1RiVK_RmOKc--il3JbEeinWJQ6k0yB-X5SB86Oqjkr1oM3vhH_feGA0V4XJn4E06HhU2Zsm1hogt1opgHia6Nhm47zyivjduzlJoiVe0-euW26_uhJFih-rySNQXK-vXsnGxJqBbZkfUbTeX0ajBU4l3G-tPuHfslcabWZfO-rWH5P1n-HwLWm7dsf1C0Y5Z_25gpgALtbshbQkiO4ug4N00NoqbWkMugIm7PQs2XBaq4Il9Uzo7PaE3m22v6fG9eO8C1THsayGdudI4DBjMQTwJEdP2cQAEbL_hD_4QeIBhFLbQYSiCuMhTyT_OVywuExMK5dql_d4dMoJn7qnsD8p4LfMR-LqBx4cK5PbkXAbMWNpGVKg_MC96W8Og3cGUx5xe5wQDOVpbxkpS=s610-no

What I've done so far - I intend to work few hours more to complete the job, include new painting on the barrel with a as-close-as-possible original painting.

In the next post, some pics and links of "on cleaning" part, not finished yet,

RSalles
25-Jan-2016, 07:33
Front - on cleaning:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/aJSmlShoQxLh7VZ9bUxR4HCFJd9g_3usK4ybHPQhp3TpR5CC4IUwNYP-LVjmzphZ8cEh4sSoJE3Sb0oU39ELMVC90wN4oR4FDzld_ZDygFOSUpk1SYe5ObpgvBuEJ8WcLjB_0cz_vxUdVu1ie5DBbWCZCp1z30jhnv0a9huYIE44frZA9QrDkWcBc8x012KBBovE47lIJR_K714uxDsQWWh8SOspdEWqfbQSX_ojYfVkUdY7JxIBFrZB2YYnIYBn0IYYvRNkHvgMKytWJxTO6ap6CrnUr6xBqpsNJB7AhUN1tx0j3fWJKRcKPIMcz83GuxeHVZXOkbKloH4VhAok4YQrYMCw-B-ntBt-_9Iuw-jwDYfscI1hpUM9wfx5dtdbBWA4Cwmy92hZWOuRgCX9gj0acxQGuqRx_OITA6DA3pKtu8Sp7eZ0LuVTXXlD0NJw4QJK1Oja9yeifRa1eUC_g8UL-Jgcv4ulwrcV1Mott9exKeAOjcB3u0rmOvcN4ldYmreJHuO9kzOH1uvLNVTmKmfYH7UY-MpBrJTUTS2e2pkFTvOO1JvZFv-52ZtXgtOqsfw5=s610-no


Back, on cleaning, not yet finished:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MX0RrTqt9xDoi0fHP5brLa8YtUN6r4Kr58bES_DvfPD-Hg7oX2KuBTJr2ZUnHWfAturlEX-pa9fbp6G99Vvq5ujlb4K4fBO7626e-T_YqyZ27dP314Hn5TXNFRoZpJOTo1BWlqqM_uXM-1PmZysZ6IvTCce78rJOzjfFjlAD0mvG1lfLiROScnKrl6nahf1NxSlZGl56re41_yUbG20mEgJhaW95DWfQ0FUZJgsCJfIsacyn0Ee8jmlElDL9T9zeRRmFaKxI3zocIf3mMH_AwiapO0hiwGHTrvLfQb_7jep5tGgZcTrAu8UFb6p6RMqPD9cl7ULSsp3cU0bKj6NgyYNrMfpNArnKMtWQqCazlPgiTTlEnkL9v3hXkRK4g-A_PtDao7REE1UauVp_ChmdfaPlB-C02t43lO_XNZx4lKWVKvDMUcP7kXtGi2-FECitD4N9sen9ftP-uOwAcdObElhe5etCJbSeVm531gtb7ZmqIJ6TydS7RRMSVfnIeh2tubw-mlY2r4BrK5I-B9d1kB6GH42ElhhbbkV2ozDBgHl2StuAVBv2E2eZgIoxWULMTONT=s610-no

Diagonal shot of the back element, daylight, trying to collect haze with sunlight:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_ny8dDibBH64KdDFiOaSU9HJCUmk883FjRAoZvU25jSCitOt2biZm3i603R_lSRN-TlQmTJzhI97WzWLCAFM2oZu18N712xquQZ9DhhlSNza8Civ1q4YzQ3tKg7YMGYVscXCygwLbcFXwYqN1Tu7FVxgRgD8YsTujqIc4hAef0VDzcL5SUSgVK4HGNxLtdCjeLPjJWdWSYBQJpfPWRR0UyMS14oGzfvk5Ubojf2eLVhCKQpzjhyZc-43Z5Xy-yZ6Gl-xq63_29oC0uwcoWfU1A9ADn_RQRZirDlSChrxqwH_0dVio7iPSZm6bblobuQY1lYDSpqaY0-uxtnACRsYhlxsM_qMpnguuCkVe_jD-CwiO79GN1oAy_phe8yGqIoCbk56ybX4knR2RQ3b__iXFPRQHG7uR9x9J_loGhHUyrcxe7mqgf6mSCR25iWoF4GAAsgURCuE2FpZQy-6MjgvuuobOmHqPTCHypvSd5BDP35QxfU7OO2DDj7iOWnJ8YvROKWbp-6iw2HhRc9qX3Hvu0Oawkpo1bsTwXPVfUlGHEA2LY6IRHLuspDzjbbHrqLCUFqG=s610-no

Working from the centre toward the edges, it's quit evident the amount of small scratches hidden under the haze - which I'll try to remove if not too deep.

Thanks,

Renato

EdSawyer
25-Jan-2016, 12:23
Renato -

Looks like some good progress. Presumably you are doing some sort of polishing here? I got your PM, will reply to that soon.

thanks for posting the pics,

-Ed

Steven Tribe
25-Jan-2016, 15:02
I am always positive about DIY, but I don't believe in polishing without a solid pressure plate which is the exact match of the lens curvature. The lens has to come out of the mount for serious work.

RSalles
25-Jan-2016, 15:40
Ed,

That's it, alternating compounds, working slowly, always wet, patience, as randomly as possible, that's it.

Steven,
In the mail I sent to Ed I explained how preferable is to remove the optical element from the mount, but in this case I have not arrived to do it without the risk to crack it trying, so, better to avoid. Possibly due to the type of application of this aerial lens, the optical elements were cemented on the barrel, as it was subject to constant vibration aboard, and 75 years of cemented optics requires heat, chems or brute force to be removed, or a combination of some of them, so I preferred not to do it. So, I had a choice: or to clean the lens with the glass mounted, or not to clean. I did and the lens will be at least fully usable now.

Cheers,

Renato

EdSawyer
26-Jan-2016, 10:44
Renato - thanks for sharing the details. Indeed, the rear group of the Pentac seems to be pressed into the mount. I have 3 of them (and have had more) and all are built this way. It seems like they were cemented together, and then the mount was press-formed around them somehow? Not sure. You could remove them but as you mentioned it would end up sacrificing the rear mount/group barrel.

I think Steven's concern is the profile of the lens could change with this sort of polishing, e.g. the optical characteristics of it could end up worse - it's hard to say how much of an effect there might be. It will be interesting to see before/after shots taken with it, if you had a chance to take some before polishing.

thanks again for sharing the info!

-Ed

RSalles
26-Jan-2016, 13:35
Ed,

I made a couple of pics with film, came bad IMO due to the flare. As soon as the lens is ready I'll be glad to post some pics, as what I'm seeing just on the GG made a huge difference before-after. It will take some time to finish the lens, take the shots and scan, but I'll do as time permits,

Cheers,

Renato

RSalles
17-Mar-2016, 20:49
Just to update the thread, I was waiting for some stuff to arrive from abroad to complete the work, and I'm preparing an photo expo in Europe with all the framing/mounting made by me and labo work, plus my ordinary job, so, not all that time I would have to proceed to further cleaning.

That sad, I have arrived yesterday at the point where the cleaning is considered done, with very little haze remaining in the outer perimeter of both front and rear optical elements, barely visible, BTW.
I have some pics I made at the moment when the cleaning was finished, the second hand hanging the glass is from my wife who helped me in those,

Front element:

148421

Back:

148422

Front + back mounted:

148423

There's an album with Google with more pics for whom can be interested, showing also the glass view against a strong light source, here's the link:
https://goo.gl/photos/ZKJdWHAVKNWzACsD9

I'm planning in the next week-end or ASAP to take some photos with the lens, scan and upload to the forum,

Cheers,

Renato

Peter De Smidt
17-Mar-2016, 21:31
Interesting stuff, Renato. That's for posting it.

EdSawyer
18-Mar-2016, 13:13
Looks really good! Will be interesting to see results from images shot with it before and after.

RSalles
20-Mar-2016, 11:52
Looks really good! Will be interesting to see results from images shot with it before and after.

Ed, I will as soon as the rain let me goes outdoors,

Cheers,

Renato

RSalles
25-Mar-2016, 17:52
As promised and as weather permits, some pics before/after:

Before:

f11:
148839

f8:
148840

Wide open - 2.9
148841

Also WO:
148842

More following the lens after have been cleaned,

RSalles
25-Mar-2016, 18:10
I have just 1 pic so far to show the lens rendering after cleaning, the weather is very heavy around here all the week, with some stretch windows of sunlight:

This picture is exactly as it came from the scanning procedure, I scan my negs with a full frame camera.

f4 - I tried to make a pic or two with the lens at 2.9, but as I have it mounted on my Sinar with the Sinar Copal shutter, the shutter goes only to 1/60, so wide open will certainly blow the highlights heavily. The problem could have been solved with a ND filter, but I don't have one big enough.

148843

Another picture with some "auto levels", no sharpening:
148844

The idea was to provoque some sparks and haze, if any, that's why I have pointed the camera to a very light reflective subject, trying to stress the glass surface and the lack of coating, flooding it with light - the picture was taken near a window - and make it cry :)

As the weather permits I'll try to make a portrait from my daughter or my wife, to show how the results comes in a real scenario. But with this series I think you can have an idea of the hole process the lens have traveled and how better it is when viewed side by side before/after,

Cheers,

Renato

B.S.Kumar
25-Mar-2016, 18:25
Hi Renato,

I think a more controlled series of photos would be ideal, perhaps if you have space to leave a set in place for the before and after shots. But if not, a static scene looking outside a window would also be good.

On a more technical note, what actually causes haze? Sometimes I see it as a ring around the lenses, other times the center of the lens. More often than not, the haze affects only the rear or front group, not both the groups. Why is this so?

Kumar

RSalles
25-Mar-2016, 19:28
Hi Kumar,

I agree, a more controlled shot series with before/after would be the best, but I hadn't the idea at that time that I could clean the haze in this lens, so severe was it.

About haze, I saw 2 types so far: micro scratches and "oxidation" of the optical element. I'm not sure if I can name it oxidation btw, but it seems, as it appears as an effect of environmental process, as the glass face exposed suffers the most. You can add to this moisture, fumes, humidity, pollution, etc. As I'm not a glass scientist in any way this is only a supposition I do. It can affect both sides, as in this lens, front and back glass optics. As the weather comes better I'll make more "normal" shots, promise,

Cheers,

Renato

Nodda Duma
25-Mar-2016, 19:42
Haze on optics comes from one or more of the following.

1: micro-scratches from aggressive cleaning or similar (you mentioned this)

2: glass types exposed to the elements with poor chemical and/or acid resistance. This is actual degradation of the glass itself.

3: out-gassing of volatiles from surrounding materials which then collect on the optical surfaces (common occurrence is haze on interior surface of a windshield)

4: other direct contamination of the surface such as oily fingerprints smeared across the surface.

B.S.Kumar
25-Mar-2016, 23:29
Thanks for the explanations, Renato and Nodda.

So that means when there is haze inside the front or rear group, where cleaning or contamination by the user would be unlikely, it is most probably caused by the out-gassing of volatile compounds from the surrounding materials, paint for example.

Kumar

Nodda Duma
26-Mar-2016, 02:43
Hi Kumar,

That's been my experience. In fact when designing optics I try to avoid calling out paint on the inner barrel surfaces and we use low out gassing adhesives for that very reason.

NASA has a public database of low VOC adhesives, RTVs, etc specifically for reference during design of aerospace optics and other subsystems where outgassing can cause issues.

https://outgassing.nasa.gov

B.S.Kumar
26-Mar-2016, 03:13
Hi Nodda,

Thanks for the link. I'll send you a PM, if I need more specific guidance.

Kumar

EdSawyer
26-Mar-2016, 06:31
The oxidation is actually called devitrification, which is caused by compounds in the glass leaching to the surface of it , basically. There can also be haze as a result of breakdown of the adhesives used in cemented groups.

Most outgassing related haze is easy to clean, in my experience. Devitrification or haze in cement is near impossible to fix, except in cases like this where extreme measures come into play, eg. Polishing it off, or separating and recementing.