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View Full Version : Lf gov't job opening (UPDATE: it's been filled!)



vinny
7-Dec-2015, 20:54
Right up your alley.

https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/422484300

Kirk Gittings
7-Dec-2015, 21:03
I don't know the why or wherefore, but this has been posted before (maybe 10-15 years ago?) and no one was ever hired. Might have been budget issues etc. Who knows. I know some many years ago I threw my hat in the ring and later I got a letter saying the job was not going to be filled but did not specify why. I wasn't sure I wanted it even if I had gotten it but I rolled the dice. This no longer interests me at this time in my life, but it could be a good gig for someone younger if this offering is real.

Paul Cunningham
8-Dec-2015, 00:17
Looks pretty cool actually. But as far as "Large Format" is concerned, I'm not sure they are looking for a photographer but perhaps someone who can run a large format printer.

"Produces large-format photographic documentation"

StoneNYC
8-Dec-2015, 01:10
Is this a joke? Apparently only males are allowed to apply, that should be interesting when the rest of the world hears about that one! Lol.

Looks like it was written by someone who's never even seen a camera before.

djdister
8-Dec-2015, 05:38
The position is not limited to males, however if you are a male applicant born after December 31, 1959, you must certify that you have registered with the Selective Service System or are exempt from having to do so under Selective Service Law.

Also, to respond to Kirk's post, they have to advertise the position even if they end up promoting an internal candidate, and they can cancel the advertisement if none of the applicants meet the minimum standards, or are all overqualified, or if they lose funding for the position (which happens a lot). Since the current Continuing Resolution runs out in a few days and the government will be without a budget, probably not the best time to apply to any vacancy.

vinny
8-Dec-2015, 05:45
Looks pretty cool actually. But as far as "Large Format" is concerned, I'm not sure they are looking for a photographer but perhaps someone who can run a large format printer.

"Produces large-format photographic documentation"

It states later that you must be familiar with large format cameras. That's why I posted it.

goamules
8-Dec-2015, 05:50
If you read the linked questions, there are many about using LF cameras, using them in the field, developing LF film, etc. Sounds like a great job for someone.

Bob Salomon
8-Dec-2015, 06:03
It is the same job that Jet Lowe and Jack Boucher did. And for the same agency.

Old-N-Feeble
8-Dec-2015, 08:16
Just because there are specialized requirements it doesn't mean those are "true" requirements. Government is an extremely cronyistic system and they use all manor of tricks to limit who may apply and "qualify" for the position. Often times they might as well call out the person getting the job by name. I worked for the Air Force and Army for nearly a quarter century and can assure you this is how the game is played. I guess my loathing for it is why I never got past GS-09.

djdister
8-Dec-2015, 09:09
Just because there are specialized requirements it doesn't mean those are "true" requirements. Government is an extremely cronyistic system and they use all manor of tricks to limit who may apply and "qualify" for the position. Often times they might as well call out the person getting the job by name. I worked for the Air Force and Army for nearly a quarter century and can assure you this is how the game is played. I guess my loathing for it is why I never got past GS-09.

So cronyism and favoritism doesn't exist in the private sector?

Jmarmck
8-Dec-2015, 09:46
When I see specialized requirements this tells me that the person is already chosen. The advertisement is only to satisfy the rules of government hiring.

Paul Metcalf
8-Dec-2015, 09:53
I remember attending a Jack Boucher presentation a lot of years ago at a View Camera Conference about the required methods and procedures for documenting historic government buildings. It had to be large format (because you had to use rise/fall and swings to completely avoid any distortion), and it had to be black and white (don't remember if there was a particular film requirement) developed in "their" lab, and the prints had to be contact prints on silver chloride paper only (of which at the time had been and was Kodak Azo). Don't remember if there was a size requirement. I imagine those "rules" are pretty much all gone now with the <near> termination of silver chloride paper and full advent of "born-digital." I would take the job, but could only do about 20% of what they list, and I would not reside in Washington DC but rather in my humble abode in Idaho, from which the attached view the other morning from my west facing windows, LOL.
143232

Old-N-Feeble
8-Dec-2015, 10:11
So cronyism and favoritism doesn't exist in the private sector?

Of course it does but it's not "supposed" to be a part of government. If it's proven, it's actionable by law. The problem is "proving" it.

goamules
8-Dec-2015, 10:20
Conspiracy theories aside, almost all government jobs are now posted through USAjobs. Someone has to write the job description, and they run the gambit from very brief and meaningless, to excessively detailed. And the Gov often doesn't allow a hiring manager to even see the applicants, until the "go between" agency reviews, vets, and sends them THEIR choices. I place people on jobs for half my career, as a technical recruiter. Many a time I've been told "I cannot look at your person's resume, you must apply online." The nameless, faceless, unqualified person in HR or these "applicant management" vendors is a much bigger catastrophe for job seekers, than the proverbial "good ole boy" network of old. In the old days, you applied to the person that actually LISTED the job, and talked your way into an interview. Today, robotic HR people try to match up keywords to job descriptions that they have been given - knowing nothing about the actual job. If there is a gap, they don't know enough to ask the applicant. They just round file the resume. Great people get passed by. Happens hundreds of times a day all over America, as we try to have a "fair" hiring system.

Corran
8-Dec-2015, 10:21
I applied. This kind of work really appeals to me and I've already done quite a bit of historical and local documentary work. While I don't necessarily have all of those KSA skills, most of them I do or at least have basic knowledge of.

Regarding the requirements, this is typical of gov't work in my experience. The job I have now has a two-page list of required duties/knowledge, but when I leave (soon), they will settle for pretty much anyone that satisfies a few of those things. The "standards" look like language someone invented to describe the work, but whether or not it's really applicable is questionable. Whether or not they have an internal candidate setup is really independent of the job requirements. I've seen it happen with lots of jobs. I was technically a "known" candidate for my job now (I knew the hiring manager and most of my coworkers) but I was also far and away the most qualified candidate.

My main question here was where the work would be done and with what equipment.

Well, we'll see what happens. Would be a cool opportunity.

goamules
8-Dec-2015, 10:29
Good luck! Work it from all angles, as you know.

Old-N-Feeble
8-Dec-2015, 10:38
Conspiracy theories aside, almost all government jobs are now posted through USAjobs. Someone has to write the job description, and they run the gambit from very brief and meaningless, to excessively detailed. And the Gov often doesn't allow a hiring manager to even see the applicants, until the "go between" agency reviews, vets, and sends them THEIR choices. I place people on jobs for half my career, as a technical recruiter. Many a time I've been told "I cannot look at your person's resume, you must apply online." The nameless, faceless, unqualified person in HR or these "applicant management" vendors is a much bigger catastrophe for job seekers, than the proverbial "good ole boy" network of old. In the old days, you applied to the person that actually LISTED the job, and talked your way into an interview. Today, robotic HR people try to match up keywords to job descriptions that they have been given - knowing nothing about the actual job. If there is a gap, they don't know enough to ask the applicant. They just round file the resume. Great people get passed by. Happens hundreds of times a day all over America, as we try to have a "fair" hiring system.

Yes... the hiring officials are sent a list of "qualified applicants". If their preferred person isn't on the list, they have the option of closing the position opening and trying again with modified requirements. If the person is on the list, they can simply choose the one they want even if they're near the bottom of the list.

Conspiracy theory? Nope... just the way the system works.

goamules
8-Dec-2015, 10:44
No, that's the way the system used to work. Today, as I explained, the hiring manager has no say. He is handed a few resumes out of the hundreds of applicants (for my kind of jobs) from HR or the Hiring Management company, usually an outside vendor. All he can say to those he receives is Yes/No. He doesn't get to ask to review all those that agency rejected. I try to had deliver my highly qualified candidates every day, for dozens of large companies. 99% of the time you are blocked by the HR system I described. Allowing the hiring manager find an excellent candidate himself is going the way of ticker tapes. It's all bureaucracy now, the kind that gives us all these problems like missing terrorists, by the way. PC, even if it hurts business and the country.

Corran
8-Dec-2015, 10:49
I know here our Social Equity department. culls the applicants down so as to include a representative number of minorities and women, regardless of the applicant's level of education or experience, before the hiring department even sees the list. This makes sense superficially, but since the SE dept. doesn't know anything about art, music, etc., or even cares about the minimum requirements, it makes no sense to push through minorities that have, say, only a high school diploma but are applying for a faculty position (this has happened).

Old-N-Feeble
8-Dec-2015, 10:55
No, that's the way the system used to work. Today, as I explained, the hiring manager has no say. He is handed a few resumes out of the hundreds of applicants (for my kind of jobs) from HR or the Hiring Management company, usually an outside vendor. All he can say to those he receives is Yes/No. He doesn't get to ask to review all those that agency rejected. I try to had deliver my highly qualified candidates every day, for dozens of large companies. 99% of the time you are blocked by the HR system I described. Allowing the hiring manager find an excellent candidate himself is going the way of ticker tapes. It's all bureaucracy now, the kind that gives us all these problems like missing terrorists, by the way. PC, even if it hurts business and the country.

You missed my point. Yes, the hiring officials are given a list of qualified applicants. They can close the job offer if their preferred person isn't on the list. They can try again later with or without modifying the requirements. They can repeat the process until the person they want is on the list. Then they select that person from the list. Despite what you think, there is little change from the way it always was.

djdister
8-Dec-2015, 11:12
Yes... the hiring officials are sent a list of "qualified applicants". If their preferred person isn't on the list, they have the option of closing the position opening and trying again with modified requirements. If the person is on the list, they can simply choose the one they want even if they're near the bottom of the list.

Conspiracy theory? Nope... just the way the system works.

And here's the flip side of it. As a government manager, I recently interviewed a candidate for a position because his resume listed all the right stuff, had the right buzz words and everything. When asked to explain what was described on his resume, he was at a complete loss - and it became obvious that he cut and pasted his "experiences" from some online resume generator. So I follow all of the arcane OPM rules and guidelines and in the end applicants can lie their heads off - and we have to sift through all of that. That is one reason we go for "known quantities" -- but its true, you have to get through the somewhat anonymous, automated resume scrubbing processes before it gets to the actual hiring managers.

Old-N-Feeble
8-Dec-2015, 11:45
And here's the flip side of it. As a government manager, I recently interviewed a candidate for a position because his resume listed all the right stuff, had the right buzz words and everything. When asked to explain what was described on his resume, he was at a complete loss - and it became obvious that he cut and pasted his "experiences" from some online resume generator. So I follow all of the arcane OPM rules and guidelines and in the end applicants can lie their heads off - and we have to sift through all of that. That is one reason we go for "known quantities" -- but its true, you have to get through the somewhat anonymous, automated resume scrubbing processes before it gets to the actual hiring managers.

That's precisely correct. But the flip-side to the flip-side is the new employee goes through an evaluation process. If he/she can't do the job as advertised and outlined in the Job Description then management can easily and quickly fire him/her. Of course, that takes a little time and effort on the part of management. The faults of the new employee must be provable and actionable. If the applicant truly did lie and can't perform the assigned duties the firing process is fairly quick and simple. So, yes there's a flip-side but that last flip-side is relatively speedily and easily managed.

djdister
8-Dec-2015, 11:50
...If he/she can't do the job as advertised and outlined in the Job Description then management can easily and quickly fire him/her. Of course, that takes a little time and effort on the part of management...

We can get rid of someone relatively quickly within a 12 month Probationary status window, after that, there is nothing quick or easy about firing a government employee, speaking from direct experience. Best not to hire bad folks in the first place, since it likely took 6-10 months to get to the candidate interview process.

Old-N-Feeble
8-Dec-2015, 11:53
Don't forget about the initial 30 day evaluation period. No offense intended but if management can't evaluate the abilities of an employee within 30 days, let alone 12 months, then management is incompetent and should also be re-evaluated. If the employee proved himself capable and willing to perform his assigned duties, within the confines of his Position Description, but then becomes a slacker after the 12 month trial then that's a different issue. And yes, it becomes more difficult to terminate him. But... that's still a very big part of management's job. If management can't or won't perform their duties with integrity and efficiency then they're not doing their jobs either. IMO, it's a big friggin' mess. BTW, the likelihood of an employee deciding to intentionally fail after 12 months on the job is relatively rare. It takes years of being treated like crap to finally become so jaded.

djdister
8-Dec-2015, 12:10
Don't forget about the initial 30 day evaluation period. No offense intended but if management can't evaluate the abilities of an employee within 30 days, let alone 12 months, then management is incompetent and should also be re-evaluated. If the employee proved himself capable and willing to perform his assigned duties, within the confines of his Position Description, but then becomes a slacker after the 12 month trial then that's a different issue. And yes, it becomes more difficult to terminate him. But... that's still a very big part of management's job. If management can't or won't perform their duties with integrity and efficiency then they're not doing their jobs either. IMO, it's a big friggin' mess. BTW, the likelihood of an employee deciding to intentionally fail after 12 months on the job is relatively rare. It takes years of being treated like crap to finally become so jaded.

I get your points. As for me, I can't afford to take a huge pay cut for this position, but someone younger on this forum might want it. I have no insight or ties into the DOI/NPS, so can't help anyone with pointers, other than to follow the application process in USAJOBs to the letter.

Old-N-Feeble
8-Dec-2015, 12:12
^^^ That's all anyone can do... try his/her best and keep hoping. :)

scheinfluger_77
8-Dec-2015, 12:13
Looks like an awesome retirement gig to me. :cool:

redrockcoulee
8-Dec-2015, 12:15
On the Canadian government now it is so hard to get to the point that you can list a position to get candidates and that if you close it without hiring if there are suitable candidates the most likely result is that you lose the position permamently meaning that no one will ever fill it or at least not for a decade or two.


No, that's the way the system used to work. Today, as I explained, the hiring manager has no say. He is handed a few resumes out of the hundreds of applicants (for my kind of jobs) from HR or the Hiring Management company, usually an outside vendor. All he can say to those he receives is Yes/No. He doesn't get to ask to review all those that agency rejected. I try to had deliver my highly qualified candidates every day, for dozens of large companies. 99% of the time you are blocked by the HR system I described. Allowing the hiring manager find an excellent candidate himself is going the way of ticker tapes. It's all bureaucracy now, the kind that gives us all these problems like missing terrorists, by the way. PC, even if it hurts business and the country.

Old-N-Feeble
8-Dec-2015, 12:19
On the Canadian government now it is so hard to get to the point that you can list a position to get candidates and that if you close it without hiring if there are suitable candidates the most likely result is that you lose the position permamently meaning that no one will ever fill it or at least not for a decade or two.

That's probably a logical way to preclude at least some of the cronyism abuses of the system. I tip my hat to Canada.:)

DrTang
8-Dec-2015, 14:20
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/422484300

jbenedict
8-Dec-2015, 14:42
Here's another listing for the job of "Nuevo Ansel Adams":

http://petapixel.com/2015/12/08/ansel-adams-job-opening-in-us-govt-pays-100000-per-year/

Oren Grad
8-Dec-2015, 14:55
Threads merged.

Kirk Gittings
8-Dec-2015, 15:10
Here's another listing for the job of "Nuevo Ansel Adams":

http://petapixel.com/2015/12/08/ansel-adams-job-opening-in-us-govt-pays-100000-per-year/

Jeez "Ansel Adams Job Opening"-give me a break. This is getting out of hand. It's not like being anointed the new Ansel Adams. Please. I don't remember Jet Lowe or Jack Boucher who worked there for decades and did sterling work every receiving such kudos.

Having known some of the staffers there, I also know it is not nearly as romantic as people are spinning this. It's a job in a big bureaucracy with many rewarding moments and a lot of drudgery-like any job. Having done quite a few of these HABS/HAER/HALS photographic projects as a freelancer, I know many if not most of them are pretty humble. HABS/HAER/HALS staff grabs the better jobs themselves I know but still......

I used to do them because a) it was a way to give something back to the historic architecture I loved [or at least documenting such-as a lot of what I did was to record it just before it was to be torn down] or b) it was a way to get access to interesting buildings etc. that might also provide me some subject matter for personal images Jet Lowe and Jack Boucher. They were fun and rewarding.

Sal Santamaura
8-Dec-2015, 15:53
Looks pretty cool actually. But as far as "Large Format" is concerned, I'm not sure they are looking for a photographer but perhaps someone who can run a large format printer.

"Produces large-format photographic documentation"


It states later that you must be familiar with large format cameras. That's why I posted it.Here are the current photography guidelines:


http://www.nps.gov/hdp/standards/PhotoGuidelines.pdf

Gotta be large format film (4x5, 5x7 or 8x10, with 5x7 preferred), but digital prints are now OK.

StoneNYC
8-Dec-2015, 17:16
I suspect this is to promote the parks and nostalgia and to get more people to visit the parks. I suspect the photographer will benefit from it, but it's really just to get people talking.

Corran
8-Dec-2015, 17:25
I suspect the photographer will benefit from it

Well, starting pay of $64,000 is a benefit I would gladly accept. Even if it is DC!

Sal Santamaura
8-Dec-2015, 18:05
I suspect this is to promote the parks and nostalgia and to get more people to visit the parks. I suspect the photographer will benefit from it, but it's really just to get people talking.Your suspicions are unfounded. This job and the office it's part of produce documentation for the Library of Congress. The motivation of today's public to visit parks won't be increased by black and white 5x7s filed away for posterity.

David Lindquist
8-Dec-2015, 18:24
I suppose the "Nuevo Ansel Adams" thing, as far fetched as it is, was inevitable. An entirely different sort of position and resulting work.

I was very fortunate to meet and talk to Jet Lowe at the 1996 Society for Industrial Archeology annual meeting. Got my copy of his book Industrial Eye signed too. Pretty cool.
David

Kirk Gittings
8-Dec-2015, 18:29
I suspect this is to promote the parks and nostalgia and to get more people to visit the parks. I suspect the photographer will benefit from it, but it's really just to get people talking.

Not at all. They are just replacing retired personnel that have been doing this necessary documentation job largely unsung for decades. All the hype about Ansel Adams did not come from the Parks Service but by lame clueless internet sites hyping a government job listing, trying to create some traffic.

StoneNYC
8-Dec-2015, 18:51
Not at all. They are just replacing retired personnel that have been doing this necessary documentation job largely unsung for decades. All the hype about Ansel Adams did not come from the Parks Service but by lame clueless internet sites hyping a government job listing, trying to create some traffic.

Got it!

Too bad they won't give me the job... :/

I wonder if being an Eagle Scout can count as my 1 year in service, I know it counts if I joined the military... Lol!

Will Whitaker
8-Dec-2015, 18:56
After 25 years of civil service, the last thing I would want to do is to merge my hobby, my means of "escape" with yet another job working for the government! A fate worse than death, if you ask me. But you didn't.

Old-N-Feeble
8-Dec-2015, 19:01
^^^ You and me both, brother.

Jac@stafford.net
8-Dec-2015, 19:43
My experience while working for a state is that we were required to advertise positions that were open, regardless of possible closing of the same. Very frustrating bullsh*t.

Old-N-Feeble
8-Dec-2015, 19:57
My experience while working for a state is that we were required to advertise positions that were open, regardless of possible closing of the same. Very frustrating bullsh*t.

You mean you had to advertise an opening even if management wasn't looking to fill the position and it was to be abolished??

neil poulsen
8-Dec-2015, 23:22
Very interesting. A friend just contacted me and called my attention to this Washington DC job for a Large Format Photographer. Includes HABS/HAER/HALS work. Job open Dec. 1st - Dec. 15th.

Too bad it's not located in Forest Grove, Oregon. ;)

Here's the link . . .

https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/422484300

480sparky
8-Dec-2015, 23:32
Very interesting. A friend just contacted me and called my attention to this Washington DC job for a Large Format Photographer. Includes HABS/HAER/HALS work. Job open Dec. 1st - Dec. 15th.

Too bad it's not located in Forest Grove, Oregon. ;)

Here's the link . . .

https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/422484300

Yer a bit late for the party.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?127065-Lf-gov-t-job-opening&p=1293170#post1293170

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Threads merged.

Ian Gordon Bilson
9-Dec-2015, 02:05
Anyone heard of the "Peter Principle"?
The theory that any individual is likely to be promoted,on the basis of proved performance,to a level just above the level at which they are most competent.With the result being,they will be incompetent,finally.
Explains a lot about life in a first world economy.

sperdynamite
9-Dec-2015, 08:11
I'm applying. I think I'm qualified to say the least and I've been looking for an excuse to leave Brooklyn. I would like to think there are a lot of qualified applicants but how many 30 somethings are there with extensive LF and film processing experience? Probably more than I think. I know its a long shot but you gotta be in it to win it as they say. I don't have any romantic notions about the job, but I think it's actually something I would enjoy.

Bob Salomon
9-Dec-2015, 08:28
I'm applying. I think I'm qualified to say the least and I've been looking for an excuse to leave Brooklyn. I would like to think there are a lot of qualified applicants but how many 30 somethings are there with extensive LF and film processing experience? Probably more than I think. I know its a long shot but you gotta be in it to win it as they say. I don't have any romantic notions about the job, but I think it's actually something I would enjoy.
Where does it say that you have to be in your 30s?

djdister
9-Dec-2015, 08:49
I'm applying. I think I'm qualified to say the least and I've been looking for an excuse to leave Brooklyn. I would like to think there are a lot of qualified applicants but how many 30 somethings are there with extensive LF and film processing experience? Probably more than I think. I know its a long shot but you gotta be in it to win it as they say. I don't have any romantic notions about the job, but I think it's actually something I would enjoy.

I encourage anyone interested to apply. Some reminders about the application process in USAJOBS:

Make sure your resume clearly explains your education and experience, to include addressing all of the KSAs and the specialized experience required. Your resume should be a Word or PDF document.
Your resume should directly reference the specialized experience - i.e. photography related to historical, architectural, scientific or engineering subject matter. There has to be some level of word matches, otherwise your resume will get tossed.
Don't use any fancy looking resume formats, because they will get trashed in the USAJOBS document processing and will look like crap. No images, boxes or graphical doodads should be on your resume.
Make sure you answer all questions in the Assessment questionnaire and successfully submit/attach it with your application for the job.
Attach the DD-214 and any Veteran's pref or disability docs -- if they apply to you.

Good luck!

sperdynamite
9-Dec-2015, 09:02
I encourage anyone interested to apply. Some reminders about the application process in USAJOBS:

Make sure your resume clearly explains your education and experience, to include addressing all of the KSAs and the specialized experience required. Your resume should be a Word or PDF document.
Your resume should directly reference the specialized experience - i.e. photography related to historical, architectural, scientific or engineering subject matter. There has to be some level of word matches, otherwise your resume will get tossed.
Don't use any fancy looking resume formats, because they will get trashed in the USAJOBS document processing and will look like crap. No images, boxes or graphical doodads should be on your resume.
Make sure you answer all questions in the Assessment questionnaire and successfully submit/attach it with your application for the job.
Attach the DD-214 and any Veteran's pref or disability docs -- if they apply to you.

Good luck!

Should I be as specific as something like, "as for KSA-1..." Or should I just have the relevant keywords in my cover letter. I wrote a cover letter which sort of tells my story and why I'm qualified but if you're saying I should be more direct I can do that too. As for the questionaire, I need to put that into my word processor and answer the questions there, and then upload it as an attachment? I assumed they would have a web application of some kind to answer them after I filled out my resume.

djdister
9-Dec-2015, 09:10
Should I be as specific as something like, "as for KSA-1..." Or should I just have the relevant keywords in my cover letter. I wrote a cover letter which sort of tells my story and why I'm qualified but if you're saying I should be more direct I can do that too. As for the questionaire, I need to put that into my word processor and answer the questions there, and then upload it as an attachment? I assumed they would have a web application of some kind to answer them after I filled out my resume.

Okay, more points. The cover letter means nothing. The application process does not ask for a cover letter, so it will get you nothing. In your resume, you don't have to cite each KSA separately, but the knowledge described in the KSA (and relevant keywords) had better be in your resume, and answered positively in the assessment questionnaire. The assessment questionnaire gets filled out online as part of the application process. You will get directed to that process when you apply through USAJOBS (I think another website runs the questionnaire process). Don't bother answering the questionnaire in a separate document - the web form questionnaire will ask you to select from 4 or 5 answers to each question - option 1 is something like "never heard of that" to option 5 being something like "I'm considered an expert in this field and teach others."

Randy Moe
9-Dec-2015, 09:20
A number of friends told me to apply. I don't know where they found the job posting.

I am certain I am not qualified nor physically capable, but I love my friends. :)

Corran
9-Dec-2015, 09:26
I wrote a cover letter too. I know it wasn't required or asked for but it makes me feel more engaged with whoever might read it. The KSA stuff seems to be asking if you are literally doing the job they are hiring for, which simply doesn't exist anywhere else I think? Whatever, I put in the app, couldn't hurt and if it's thrown out at the very beginning due to some BS algorithm so be it. Ranking candidates on a numerical scale based on a questionnaire like that is silly.

A lot of my work, especially with my mill project last year, is exactly what they are looking at doing I think.

sperdynamite
9-Dec-2015, 09:54
Okay, more points. The cover letter means nothing. The application process does not ask for a cover letter, so it will get you nothing. In your resume, you don't have to cite each KSA separately, but the knowledge described in the KSA (and relevant keywords) had better be in your resume, and answered positively in the assessment questionnaire. The assessment questionnaire gets filled out online as part of the application process. You will get directed to that process when you apply through USAJOBS (I think another website runs the questionnaire process). Don't bother answering the questionnaire in a separate document - the web form questionnaire will ask you to select from 4 or 5 answers to each question - option 1 is something like "never heard of that" to option 5 being something like "I'm considered an expert in this field and teach others."

Interesting. Thanks so much for your help with this. I will try not to get my hopes up but it's encouraging to see a real job asking me to do what I actually went to college to do.

sperdynamite
9-Dec-2015, 09:56
I wrote a cover letter too. I know it wasn't required or asked for but it makes me feel more engaged with whoever might read it. The KSA stuff seems to be asking if you are literally doing the job they are hiring for, which simply doesn't exist anywhere else I think? Whatever, I put in the app, couldn't hurt and if it's thrown out at the very beginning due to some BS algorithm so be it. Ranking candidates on a numerical scale based on a questionnaire like that is silly.

A lot of my work, especially with my mill project last year, is exactly what they are looking at doing I think.

I know! I feel like with the way they ask questions it has me answering like I have no experience but they can't really expect to hire someone who has done this exact job for years and years. Plus anyone who's working as a commercial architectural photogrpaher, if successful, will probably want to continue doing just that. Especially since they're almost certainly shooting digital these days.

Wayne
9-Dec-2015, 11:51
A cover letter won't hurt, it just won't help get your keywords noted if they are absent elsewhere and that's what moves or doesn't move your resume to the hiring manager. Those have to be in the resume.

You should be able to modify your resume up to the closing date.




I wrote a cover letter too. I know it wasn't required or asked for but it makes me feel more engaged with whoever might read it. The KSA stuff seems to be asking if you are literally doing the job they are hiring for, which simply doesn't exist anywhere else I think? Whatever, I put in the app, couldn't hurt and if it's thrown out at the very beginning due to some BS algorithm so be it. Ranking candidates on a numerical scale based on a questionnaire like that is silly.

A lot of my work, especially with my mill project last year, is exactly what they are looking at doing I think.

Kodachrome25
9-Dec-2015, 12:04
Looks like an awesome retirement gig to me. :cool:

Or a young person with fresh vision who could really benefit from breaking in.

goamules
9-Dec-2015, 12:06
Anyone heard of the "Peter Principle"?
The theory that any individual is likely to be promoted,on the basis of proved performance,to a level just above the level at which they are most competent.With the result being,they will be incompetent,finally.
Explains a lot about life in a first world economy.

What principle applies to the competence in a 2nd or 3rd world economy, where there is very little invented, manufactured, or serviced? Here are a few I know of: "Manana Land", "Hang Loose."

Kodachrome25
9-Dec-2015, 12:11
I'm applying. I think I'm qualified to say the least and I've been looking for an excuse to leave Brooklyn. I would like to think there are a lot of qualified applicants but how many 30 somethings are there with extensive LF and film processing experience? Probably more than I think. I know its a long shot but you gotta be in it to win it as they say. I don't have any romantic notions about the job, but I think it's actually something I would enjoy.

This work requires competent silver gelatin printing too, as per elsewhere but verified:

"I work as an architectural historian in this office. We need a skilled architectural photographer who shoots 45 or 57 black and white large format. They need to do archivally stable wet processing in our photo lab. The starting salary is no where near $100,000 – that is just the end range of the GS salary schedule (i.e. maybe after 20 years…). See http://www.nps.gov/hdp/index.htm"

I still say go for it, I mentor and encourage young photographers and want to see them have opportunities in these tough times for photographers.

As for the older guys, well..how about you just continue to enjoy your hobby and let a young person get a break?

Jac@stafford.net
9-Dec-2015, 12:15
I know! I feel like with the way they ask questions it has me answering like I have no experience but they can't really expect to hire someone who has done this exact job for years and years.

You would be surprised. It is also possible they wrote the job description for a candidate they already know.

Randy Moe
9-Dec-2015, 12:41
You would be surprised. It is also possible they wrote the job description for a candidate they already know.

That would not surprise me one bit.

My last employer did that all the time.

HR is the enemy!

Corran
9-Dec-2015, 13:08
As for the older guys, well..how about you just continue to enjoy your hobby and let a young person get a break?

Yeah...
When I graduated with my undergrad degrees, in the middle of the recession, there were no jobs in my field available in the state - dozens of retired folks had come back at 49% to the open positions, making a young, fresh-out-of-college guy unemployable. Age discrimination is also a huge problem.

I know of one older (50-60+) person who has applied for this position, a Vet, worked in photography for the army or something, so obviously in the context of this job, he has a huge advantage, regardless of skills. Obviously us younger guys have no chance comparatively, since none of us has had "official" LF experience, since that kind of job has been mostly extinct. Until now, anyway.

Old-N-Feeble
9-Dec-2015, 13:21
You would be surprised. It is also possible they wrote the job description for a candidate they already know.

Nah... ya' think???? LOL!! :D

sperdynamite
9-Dec-2015, 13:56
Yeah...
When I graduated with my undergrad degrees, in the middle of the recession, there were no jobs in my field available in the state - dozens of retired folks had come back at 49% to the open positions, making a young, fresh-out-of-college guy unemployable. Age discrimination is also a huge problem.

I know of one older (50-60+) person who has applied for this position, a Vet, worked in photography for the army or something, so obviously in the context of this job, he has a huge advantage, regardless of skills. Obviously us younger guys have no chance comparatively, since none of us has had "official" LF experience, since that kind of job has been mostly extinct. Until now, anyway.

Yeah I graduated in 2007 and then everything took a nose dive off the fall that was already happening because of digital. It think photography is now listed on a few sites as one of the worst majors, which I really can't disagree with, though I don't have specific regrets.

I hope they don't give this job to somebody with one foot in retirement because it sure would seem like a good idea to keep knowledge of these techniques out there instead of having them just go with the previous generation(s). There is a lotta negative talk in this thread, but whatever I guess that's just a constant online. I'm realistically hopeful!

Joe O'Hara
9-Dec-2015, 13:59
Looks like the Department of the Interior has an opening for a LF photographer in the HABS program:

https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/422484300

Maybe one of you youngsters would like to give it a go. Better move fast, it closes on December 15th.

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Thread merged.

Jac@stafford.net
9-Dec-2015, 14:47
Yeah I think photography is now listed on a few sites as one of the worst majors

Yeah, it's right down next to professional spelling editors.

Randy Moe
9-Dec-2015, 14:53
Ageist commentary. Politics?

Consider this young guys, Bryan.

I was forced out of work at age 57 in 2007, automotive recession. No chance of getting hired for anything.

I am now 65 and retired, but my mother is alive at 95 and I may very well have to reenter 'work' to survive another 30 or more years.

We early retirees seem to have many skills young people never learned in a multitude of fields.

I am getting more requests to volunteer my skill set...

I am very busy.

Corran
9-Dec-2015, 15:19
Randy, I have a very good friend who is closing in on 70. He works 60 hours a week at his business. He tells me I'll likely be the one to find him dead at his workbench, which makes me really sad. However, he does it because he loves it, not (completely) due to needing the money.

Having to work to live when anyone is supposed to be "retired," or worse somewhat incapable of most work, is a terrible thing to contemplate. I'm afraid the scope of this discussion, as you mention, is likely too politically charged to even begin talking about.

With regard to my comments - I do think there are many older folks who keep working well past retirement age not because they have to, but because they want to. That's fine, but this certainly creates a problem for younger professionals trying to enter the workforce. Another good friend of mine finally "retired" from teaching (she still works part time) because she was actually losing money by working. She was past 70. It's the first open spot in that area in over 30 years. That's unsustainable.

Kodachrome25
9-Dec-2015, 16:08
The main thrust of me wanting to see a younger person get this is because I mentor young people, I know what they are up against in professional photography. They ask me how do they break in like I did and I tell them I have not a clue because I did some 30 years ago.

I don't plan on retiring, or at least that is the plan. I will be 50 in a year and a half and at least for now, I can pretty much edge my competition out, just too established, too forward thinking, and keep on cranking out fresh work like nobody's business. So I feel like I have to give back a bit. I am going to travel with one of my students to Cuba in May for the entire month. He is 22, has great vision, wants to do work that would not compete with but be complementary of what I want to do down there.

Lots of retirement aged folks out there who shoot LF as a hobby who chose to be a dentist, engineer, hardware store owner, etc are going to perhaps apply to this in order to do something in their retirement years.

More power to them but I am rooting for the young guy this time around...the guy like me who at age 17 was figuring out how to "Break in".

Wayne
9-Dec-2015, 17:21
Highly unlikely that too many retirees are going to want to move to DC to work full-time. May the most qualified person get the job regardless of age...



The main thrust of me wanting to see a younger person get this is because I mentor young people, I know what they are up against in professional photography. They ask me how do they break in like I did and I tell them I have not a clue because I did some 30 years ago.

I don't plan on retiring, or at least that is the plan. I will be 50 in a year and a half and at least for now, I can pretty much edge my competition out, just too established, too forward thinking, and keep on cranking out fresh work like nobody's business. So I feel like I have to give back a bit. I am going to travel with one of my students to Cuba in May for the entire month. He is 22, has great vision, wants to do work that would not compete with but be complementary of what I want to do down there.

Lots of retirement aged folks out there who shoot LF as a hobby who chose to be a dentist, engineer, hardware store owner, etc are going to perhaps apply to this in order to do something in their retirement years.

More power to them but I am rooting for the young guy this time around...the guy like me who at age 17 was figuring out how to "Break in".

Old-N-Feeble
9-Dec-2015, 17:45
Highly unlikely that too many retirees are going to want to move to DC to work full-time. May the most qualified person get the job regardless of age...

No offense but... ha ha ha ha ha... (big breath)... ha ha ha ha ha!! :D

Maybe if the young applicant is one or more of the hiring officials' close friend or lover.

Daniel Stone
9-Dec-2015, 17:56
I applied. I'm 27, and desperately need a valid, paying reason to leave LA...

Kodachrome25
9-Dec-2015, 18:04
I applied. I'm 27, and desperately need a valid, paying reason to leave LA...

Interesting, that was exactly the age I left L.A. I had $500 in my pocket after a divorce, a little bit of credit card debt and a staff position at a newspaper lined up. Life started after L.A., I never looked back....

Good luck in your app!

goamules
9-Dec-2015, 18:16
One thing I'll tell you, this one job is all over the internet now. I think it will be funny when their applications go from 1 or 2 a week, to 50, to 500 in a day! It's probably officially the Last LF Film Photography Job In The World. Other forums have people debating digital vs film, and trying to figure out why the client can be so stupid as to require film.

Corran
9-Dec-2015, 18:20
Other forums have people debating digital vs film, and trying to figure out why the client can be so stupid as to require film.

I've seen that. Pretty nauseating.

I imagine they'll have at least a thousand applicants. Probably more.

O-n-F, enough negativity please.

Old-N-Feeble
9-Dec-2015, 18:35
I've seen that. Pretty nauseating.

I imagine they'll have at least a thousand applicants. Probably more.

O-n-F, enough negativity please.

Perhaps you should apply to be a moderator, mister policeman.;) I speak only the truth as I've experienced it for a quarter century of so-called 'government service'.:)

The smiley-faces negate the negativity.;)

Truth is often the bitterest pill to swallow.

Corran
9-Dec-2015, 19:23
Luckily, your truth is not the universal truth...

:rolleyes:

djdister
9-Dec-2015, 20:07
So let me relate some more thoughts based on 25 years (and going) of federal service.

1. The job is not "wired" for one person. If it was, they would probably only have advertised it for 5-7 days, instead of for 2 full weeks.
2. Unless the selected person has prior federal service, the top salary to start as a GS-12, step 1 is $76,378 per year. If you don't qualify as a GS-12, then starting salary as a GS-11, step 1 will be $63,722.
3. As noted before, your resume had better state the same level of experience that you claim on the assessment questionnaire. They state this in the assessment questionnaire "THE RESUME OR APPLICATION MATERIALS YOU SUBMIT FOR THIS ANNOUNCEMENT MUST SUPPORT THE ANSWER YOU CLAIM UNDER THIS AND OTHER QUESTIONS. IF NOT, YOU WILL BE FOUND NOT QUALIFIED OR YOUR SCORE WILL BE LOWERED."
4. In order to make the "Best Qualified" list, all of your answers on the questionnaire will have to be at least a 'D' or better yet, 'E' ("I am regarded as expert in performing this task...").
5. This statement in the vacancy announcement will really separate out those who may be considered: "Within these categories, applicants referred to the selecting official that are eligible for Veteran's Preference will receive selection priority over Non-Veterans." Veteran's preference for competitive government hiring is in law. For more information see: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/veterans-services/vet-guide/
6. If there are a lot of applicants who meet the standard of either "Well Qualified" or "Best Qualified," they can choose to only forward the "Best Qualified" applicants to the hiring official for consideration.

ImSoNegative
9-Dec-2015, 20:14
I don't know the why or wherefore, but this has been posted before (maybe 10-15 years ago?) and no one was ever hired. Might have been budget issues etc. Who knows. I know some many years ago I threw my hat in the ring and later I got a letter saying the job was not going to be filled but did not specify why. I wasn't sure I wanted it even if I had gotten it but I rolled the dice. This no longer interests me at this time in my life, but it could be a good gig for someone younger if this offering is real.

I remember that several years ago, I wondered who got it. I didn't apply but never really heard anything else about it

Wayne
9-Dec-2015, 20:24
No offense but... ha ha ha ha ha... (big breath)... ha ha ha ha ha!! :D

Maybe if the young applicant is one or more of the hiring officials' close friend or lover.

I'm not quite sure which part you are laughing at...a younger person is less likely to have the necessary experience, but age discrimination (against young or old) is no laughing matter. Or are you laughing because you are certain the appointee is pre-determined? A lot can go wrong to throw a wrench into those scenarios.

Old-N-Feeble
9-Dec-2015, 20:26
Luckily, your truth is not the universal truth...

:rolleyes:

Nope, not 'universal truth'... just a quarter century of direct observations.

Corran
9-Dec-2015, 20:33
Look, I know you think you have the "inside scoop" but I think you are being extremely negative and also you are most likely wrong about someone already being picked for this position, considering the position. That's all I'm saying. It's not a foregone conclusion.

BTW I was in on a hiring committee that had an inside candidate applying for the job and one person in the committee actually flat out said they needed to be given the position, regardless of experience or anything. After reviewing and discussing all applicants ultimately an outside candidate was chosen due to the skills they possessed and even the member who was all-in for the inside candidate agreed.

Edit: Sorry Oren. I'm done.

Oren Grad
9-Dec-2015, 20:34
Nope, not 'universal truth'... just a quarter century of direct observations.

You've made your point. Please do not belabor it further.

David Lindquist
9-Dec-2015, 22:29
So let me relate some more thoughts based on 25 years (and going) of federal service.

1. The job is not "wired" for one person. If it was, they would probably only have advertised it for 5-7 days, instead of for 2 full weeks.
2. Unless the selected person has prior federal service, the top salary to start as a GS-12, step 1 is $76,378 per year. If you don't qualify as a GS-12, then starting salary as a GS-11, step 1 will be $63,722.
3. As noted before, your resume had better state the same level of experience that you claim on the assessment questionnaire. They state this in the assessment questionnaire "THE RESUME OR APPLICATION MATERIALS YOU SUBMIT FOR THIS ANNOUNCEMENT MUST SUPPORT THE ANSWER YOU CLAIM UNDER THIS AND OTHER QUESTIONS. IF NOT, YOU WILL BE FOUND NOT QUALIFIED OR YOUR SCORE WILL BE LOWERED."
4. In order to make the "Best Qualified" list, all of your answers on the questionnaire will have to be at least a 'D' or better yet, 'E' ("I am regarded as expert in performing this task...").
5. This statement in the vacancy announcement will really separate out those who may be considered: "Within these categories, applicants referred to the selecting official that are eligible for Veteran's Preference will receive selection priority over Non-Veterans." Veteran's preference for competitive government hiring is in law. For more information see: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/veterans-services/vet-guide/
6. If there are a lot of applicants who meet the standard of either "Well Qualified" or "Best Qualified," they can choose to only forward the "Best Qualified" applicants to the hiring official for consideration.

At this point in my life (i'm 72) I'm not applying but thank you so much for your positive attitude and helpful information based on 25 years of experience in federal service.
David

Kirk Gittings
10-Dec-2015, 09:47
This work requires competent silver gelatin printing too, as per elsewhere but verified:

"I work as an architectural historian in this office. We need a skilled architectural photographer who shoots 45 or 57 black and white large format. They need to do archivally stable wet processing in our photo lab. The starting salary is no where near $100,000 – that is just the end range of the GS salary schedule (i.e. maybe after 20 years…). See http://www.nps.gov/hdp/index.htm"

I still say go for it, I mentor and encourage young photographers and want to see them have opportunities in these tough times for photographers.

As for the older guys, well..how about you just continue to enjoy your hobby and let a young person get a break?

Wayne
10-Dec-2015, 10:36
As for the older guys, well..how about you just continue to enjoy your hobby and let a young person get a break?


I understand wanting to help out younger people. I try to help out young people too, in photography and in my line of work, both of which are under appreciated, withering/dying fields. But I sincerely hope the hiring manager doesn't feel the same way because it IS age discrimination. Maybe the sentiment should be changed to "I hope you older guys who don't really need the money let a young person get a break", because there are plenty of 50+ people who still need to work and will need to work for a long time and shouldn't feel have to guilty about it. People like me. But I'm not applying. Fortunately I don't quite have the KSAs and I think living in DC would be a worse fate than death. :)

tonyowen
10-Dec-2015, 15:00
I’ve lived and worked in both Canada and the UK and am in my seventies so I can relate to many of the points made in the 87 postings of this thread.

Over the past couple of decades, the problems of selection, hiring, and firing have become monumental; especially with legal wolves waiting for the slightest cause to demand ‘justice and compensation’ irrespective of the merits of the decision to - select for interview, to hire, or to fire.

Regarding what should or should not be included in any CV presented for the post. I wonder if many of the posties (??) have come across the latest fad of redaction of all CVs. This means the selection person/committee/board have only a vanilla CV to consider and do not have any insight as to the ‘hidden merits’ of those applying for the job.

For the applicant, the UK is identical with the States, in that rarely does the application get to deal directly with the potential employer. So most applications are pre-judged by those whose knowledge is incompatible with what is needed for the position, and biased towards their own prejudices.

Unfortunately, age does have the certain benefits over youth, especially if the ‘job’ does not require a natural familiarity with new and evolving technologies for which the opposite is true.

I do not have US citizenship so I cannot apply for the position. However, I thought it might be of interest to know that the frustrations with (first world) governments are not unique to the USA.

Regards
Tony

Vaughn
10-Dec-2015, 15:08
I have had many friends and former students sending me this job annoucement. I have no interest at all. I have twenty good years left (hopefully) to make art. I am not going to use that time to make documents for the gov't.

Randy Moe
10-Dec-2015, 15:53
I have had many friends and former students sending me this job annoucement. I have no interest at all. I have twenty good years left (hopefully) to make art. I am not going to use that time to make documents for the gov't.

+1!

Wayne
10-Dec-2015, 16:16
It has apparently gone viral. I was thinking you must have better friends than I do but finally a call came in to tell me about this job...


A number of friends told me to apply. I don't know where they found the job posting.

I am certain I am not qualified nor physically capable, but I love my friends. :)

goamules
11-Dec-2015, 11:15
I just saw on the news that the Internet has frozen in DC, because of so many applications to The Last LF Film Job in the World. At first they thought it was a denial of service attack...

Kirk Gittings
11-Dec-2015, 11:17
I have had many friends and former students sending me this job annoucement. I have no interest at all. I have twenty good years left (hopefully) to make art. I am not going to use that time to make documents for the gov't.

Rock on

goamules
15-Dec-2015, 15:18
Good gosh: http://www.slrlounge.com/national-park-service-hiring-job-held-ansel-adams/ Complete with an Adams picture of a beautiful mountain range. Um....don't think so.

But I did hear this Last LF Photography Job in the World is going to be a topic in tonight's debate!

Wayne
15-Dec-2015, 16:17
Pretty sure Ansel Adams couldn't get that job...

Drew Wiley
15-Dec-2015, 16:37
Sounds more like a curatorial nightmare where you spend more time behind a desk than actually out shooting. Read the fine print, "Among other things, you will also need to ... " AA made most of his money as a competent commercial photographer. Even he wouldn't get suckered into something like that. Reminds me of when I was young and everybody wanted either a Forest Service or Fish and Game job so they could have an outdoor career. The relatively few that did land jobs
with those agencies ended up behind a desk in some big city the rest of their career. But that is hardly the last large format career the Govt is going to pay for.
It's gonna pay for mine in a few more months! ... or at least part of it. Heck, I've been payin' them for half a century. Now it's my turn for a little of that back!
And the nice thing is that can't even tell me what I'm supposed to photograph.

Mark Sawyer
15-Dec-2015, 19:09
Either that, or Ansel would have gotten the job, and no one would have ever heard from him again...

Anyone ever heard of George Grant?

schafphoto
7-Jan-2016, 18:09
The job is available to the best qualified candidate who has experience doing HABS/HAER/HALS photography... I just heard from the head of HDP that approximately 4000 resumes were received in the two weeks the job posting was open. Thanks to Social Media sites advertising the job as Be the new Ansel for $100K they will have a fair amount of resumes from people who had never heard of Heritage Documentation Programs or HABS/HAER/HALS before they saw it on PetaPixel.

The job entails the duties of Jack Boucher or Jet Lowe as staff photographers for the HABS, HAER, HALS program. Jet recently retired and there was no staff photographer for a while while the sequester and other budget issues happened at the National Park Service's Heritage Documentation Programs office. Well see who gets the job, it will probably be a $70,000 architectural photography gig requiring about 150 days on location a year, and allowing for periodic raises and advancement and Govt. bennies and insurance. Use the 5x7 or 4x5 camera NPS equipment or your own camera and then hand-process all your own film. Then scanning the film and print the standard mount cards on an ink-jet printer. ( the wet-fiber contact-prints are used less and less) And youd have to live in the DC Metro area, one of the most expensive areas in the country and move there in an election year.

But dont get me wrong, it would be a dream job for anyone who loves history, architecture, location photography and urban exploration. But it would also be a job... a government job where doing things and spending money require sign-offs and requisition forms and sometimes never materialize. I do a lot of this type of work in California (Freelance) and its a great combination of art, documentation and history.

Both Jack Boucher and Jet Lowe did beautiful books of their work in their long tenures with the HABS, HAER, HALS programs. There are some articles in View Camera Magazine about the job: Jack Boucher 50 Years of Service, July/August 2008 p22

And if you want to learn more about the job and perhaps do a little bit of HABS/HAER/HALS work as a donation to the Library of Congress you can start by familiarizing yourselves with the program ( http://www.nps.gov/hdp/ ) and download the latest NPS Large Format photography specifications here: http://www.nps.gov/hdp/standards/PhotoGuidelines.pdf

Then next time the HABS/HAER/HALS job opening comes up, or if they hire a second staff photographer (like in the 2000s when there were always two or three), youll have an edge on all those photographers that have never photographed, processed, prepared, printed and transmitted a HABS/HAER/HALS package to the NPS. The program has been around since 1933, and since every state lawmaker has Historic Resources in his district it keeps getting funded. It has documented the rehabilitation of the Statue of Liberty, the Golden Gate Bridge, the Beginnings of the Space Race and Space Shuttle program and colonial architecture and adobe structures that would have been lost to history 70 years ago. All photos done by NPS staff photographers and all photographs donated to the collection must be placed into the Public Domain and be copyright free for all to use.

All the film artifacts are stored at Fort Meade in Maryland in specially built temperature and humidity controlled rooms where the silver-on-polyester film should have a life expectancy of 500 years (LE500). The contact-prints are available in the Prints & Photographs Reading Room of the Library of Congress for anyone to see. Scans of all documentations in the HABS/HAER/HALS collections are searchable and available for high-resolution download from the LoC here: http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/hh/ (search your state and town to see if any of the historic properties in your area have been recorded).

Its an amazing program, and an amazing job. Congratulations to the lucky photographer who gets it.

Kirk Gittings
7-Jan-2016, 18:20
Great, realistic, informed summation. It cuts through all the hype. Good for you.

djdister
7-Jan-2016, 19:52
4000 resumes? That's a bunch. That means they will probably be pretty strict in separating the "Best Qualified" (Category Group 1) applicants from everyone else. They would generally start by only selecting those who answered at the Expert level on all of the KSA questions (this step may be done by human resources generalists). Next they will apply ranking based on who meets the Specialized Experience criteria, which should be done by people who actually understand the job series specialty. As the announcement said "applicants referred to the selecting official that are eligible for Veteran's Preference will receive selection priority over Non-Veterans." I would guess the hiring manager will try to get a list of less than 100 of the Best Qualified individuals to even consider for interviews. Even 100 is too many, so they can also use education and/or experience levels to narrow down which ones are referred to the selecting official. If I were the hiring official, I'd narrow the list to interview down to about 20. I would also guess that they will cull the Best Qualified applicants down to those who have done exactly the type of work they are looking for.

In my federal job, I've hired a number of folks from the GS-11 to GS-14 level, so I do have some knowledge of how the process works.

Anyway, as I said in an earlier post, good luck!

papercam
19-Jan-2016, 19:57
I feel badly for the poor people that had to read resumes from people who hadn't the foggiest notion what "HABS" meant. I wonder how many out of the 4000+ were actually qualified for the position.

Wayne
19-Jan-2016, 20:32
I doubt they read them, just scanned them for keywords

Mark Sawyer
19-Jan-2016, 20:58
I feel badly for the poor people that had to read resumes from people who hadn't the foggiest notion what "HABS" meant...

"Uh, yeah man, I was like, in and out of re-hab a bunch, dude. I got lots of experience in the 'habs..."

papercam
20-Jan-2016, 05:23
That's a lot of scanning !
( Probably the KSA questions helped. )
Mark Sawyer, THAT is funny 8D

goamules
20-Jan-2016, 05:56
I am a headhunter for trainers and training developers. When I post an ad, I am extremely clear on what the required skills are, so no one wastes time. For example, I may say you need a degree in something, industry experience in something else, or live in a certain city. It never fails, I get lots of resumes from people that are not remotely qualified. But I have to contact many, because a person who looks good but otherwise their resume says they live in Chicago, may have just moved to Dallas. When I ask, they always reply, "um...no...I don't live in Dallas, but I'd be willing to move there if they paid me for the move..." Even if my ad says "no move included, local candidates only." This week I'm looking for a Java Trainer with Telecomm experience. I've gotten school teacher resumes with no Java. Java programmers with no training experience. And lots that have the first two, but no Telecom.

I think many listen to the old advice that "you should just send your resume anyway...you never know...they might be looking for something else....they'll keep you on file for the next one..." It really bogs down a systematic, focused search, which is what my company does. And that's why clients pay headhunters, by the way. If the Photo job had used one, they could have weeded through all the non-qualified, and just submitted the top 5 or 10 people, pre-interviewed, and looking quite good. Clients want to assume you have every bit of the qualifications. Then they just want to see if the personalities and work styles match.

Corran
20-Jan-2016, 09:51
Depends on the job. In my sector, I have seen numerous jobs where the required skills were quite varied, and the "perfect" candidate likely was very rare or worse wouldn't be going for that job due to the salary. There's also been "hidden" qualifications, as I've found. I had two big interviews last year. One I thought was a shoe-in but didn't work out, which was fine as I didn't like the person who would be my boss. The other, at the interview they asked me a ton of questions that had nothing to do with what they advertised. I was not at all qualified for what they asked for (and it certainly wasn't in my resume). It was a strange experience. Friends have told me similar stories, about necessary skills getting really diversified in some jobs in an effort to make one position do two positions of work. This is in higher ed though. I assume IT is very different.

goamules
22-Jan-2016, 14:51
I see that effect a lot, clients wanting to merge two or three career fields into one person. I always try to coach them. It's like a dual purpose motorcycle, yes it works in the dirt, and on the street, but not very good at either!

I'll often have a client that says they want an Instructional Designer (our main focus). ID's use the knowledge of a subject matter expert to prepare training materials, that will be deployed over IT systems (if not lecture based). But these clients ask me to find an ID with a Master's degree (ok, pretty senior), but that can also program the training in XYZ program (a programmer), and can set up their Learning Management System (IT). Oh, and they need to be experts at Molecular Biophysics or Space Launch or some such (a SME). Sorry, but a person that is good at one of those fields is not going to even WANT to do the others! Another analogy is an operating room, where you have a surgeon, anesthetist, nurses, and equipment techs. None can do the other person's job. But for training, they want it all. I always explain they want a team, not one man show. But that's more expensive, and there is their real agenda.

Sorry....too much off topic, I'll stop.

Randy Moe
22-Jan-2016, 22:59
I always got a kick out my job description which was 2 pages single spaced. They would add to it during review. I stopped asking them who could replace me, right before they went to self review. I guess I was there so long I lost touch with modern human resource management. Glad to be out of that game.

bgh
23-Jan-2016, 05:16
It seems like NPS should be pretty close to having filled the position. Does anyone know who was hired? I work in this field, and a few friends had suggested that I apply (which I declined, I think wisely), and am curious. I'll see what I can find.

Bruce

Wayne
23-Jan-2016, 06:41
Government doesn't work that fast. I doubt they are anywhere close to filling it yet. They might be close to interviews

nlambrecht
3-Feb-2016, 08:44
This interview was posted on NPR last week and updated today, at the end it states that they will not decide until late spring or summer:

http://www.npr.org/2016/01/27/464603555/national-park-service-launches-search-for-next-ansel-adams

goamules
3-Feb-2016, 11:05
And I thought the President had the most important job in America. This LF Park Service job will be the most remembered opening of the decade. And may never be filled....or some smart consultant will talk to them about an easier, cheaper way to fulfill the goal. The continual postings on all photography sites reminds me of those ads in the back of Popular Science in the 1970s: "US Gov Jeeps for $20!" Everyone liked the premise, but no one ever got the jeep.

Drew Wiley
3-Feb-2016, 12:05
People did buy military Jeeps pickled in big drums of oil, cleaned off everything, reassembled them, used em for years in my neighborhood. They were a lot better built than Jeeps today and popular with gold miners and ranchers. Of course, you had to make your own seats etc.

goamules
3-Feb-2016, 12:37
OK, bad analogy. How about Sea Monkeys?

Nodda Duma
3-Feb-2016, 13:59
Kids got some sea monkeys for Christmas last year and I actually saw them grow

photonsoup
3-Feb-2016, 18:09
OK, bad analogy. How about Sea Monkeys?

I raised lots of sea monkeys from eggs. It was quite fun. Then I found out that they grew wild in The Great Salt Lake, we would get mom to take us a couple times a year to net 10 or 12 pounds, rinse off the salt and freeze them. Best tropical fish food in our world.

(They are brine shrimp, and the SL variety are much larger than the San Franciso Bay brand you could buy at the pet store)

Wayne
3-Feb-2016, 22:50
I loved my Sea Monkeys but would have settled for a jeep.

Mark Sawyer
4-Feb-2016, 11:35
So you guys are saying a Sea Monkey in a Jeep got the NPS photographer's job?

Corran
20-Apr-2016, 12:54
I received an email here today about this job. It said that while I was "qualified for the position," I was not "among the most highly qualified candidates." Not surprising at all as a person my age simply is unable to have had some of the experience they asked for in the questionnaire, and I certainly was not going to lie on that. If others did, that may get found out. Accordingly, the email stated that if more candidates were needed, I may be referred at a later time.

Anybody else?

goamules
20-Apr-2016, 14:53
Standard HR Happy Words. They won't tell you that they had 8,000 applicants, or that they decided not to fill it, or any other thing. It's basically a form letter. Usually a post card, those are cheaper for them.

Bob Salomon
20-Apr-2016, 15:11
Standard HR Happy Words. They won't tell you that they had 8,000 applicants, or that they decided not to fill it, or any other thing. It's basically a form letter. Usually a post card, those are cheaper for them.

How would a post card be cheaper then email? First they have to buy the card, or print it. Then they have to address it, then they need postage, and someone has to compose what they can simply email.

Greg Davis
20-Apr-2016, 15:24
I received an email here today about this job. It said that while I was "qualified for the position," I was not "among the most highly qualified candidates." Not surprising at all as a person my age simply is unable to have had some of the experience they asked for in the questionnaire, and I certainly was not going to lie on that. If others did, that may get found out. Accordingly, the email stated that if more candidates were needed, I may be referred at a later time.

Anybody else?

I received the same.

Wayne
20-Apr-2016, 16:45
I don't think the part about being referred at a later time are standard federal happy words, but since you weren't selected for an interview I wouldn't hold my breath. Those people who were interviewed are all ahead of you.

jnanian
20-Apr-2016, 16:49
4500+ applicants for 1 position ...

Jac@stafford.net
20-Apr-2016, 17:58
4500+ applicants for 1 position ...

In my experience that is not an unusual ratio. It was typical when I was hiring. You might be amazed by the number of entirely unqualified applications submitted, at least 20% with absolutely no relevance, most of the rest unfocused.

Light Guru
20-Apr-2016, 21:43
How would a post card be cheaper then email? First they have to buy the card, or print it. Then they have to address it, then they need postage, and someone has to compose what they can simply email.

Its the government, they like spending money when they can do things easier and less expensive another way.

goamules
21-Apr-2016, 06:16
My daughter is graduating now with an Environmental Science degree, and lots of field experience. She went to a USFS "hiring event" the other day for entry level field work. It was run very badly. There were 150 people there, and they had them fill out forms right then (instead of offering the forms on the website announcement), then had you take them to a table and get in line for "interviews". My daughter and others drove 5 hour round trips to get there, by the way. They couldn't tell her even IF she'd be interviewed that day, "we might not get to you til tomorrow." Though the website said you'd get interviewed the day you got there, and didn't list any degree requirements.

So she was supposed to sit in the hotel lobby with the others, just waiting for hours, for someone to come into the room and call their name. She was on the phone with me a lot. I asked, "what if you are in the bathroom and you miss hearing your name?" She didn't know...they weren't putting up lists of when your interview time was or anything. Finally, she was told to go home (2.5 hours) and come back Sunday. Then, on the phone someone else called her and said, "the USFS doesn't actively seek Environmental Science degrees....so we won't be interviewing you." and GET THIS "...we encourage you to keep pursuing your career in the National Forest Service..." Um....but you said you don't take her degree right?! Those are "happy words", and they're usually said.

Now my daughter is convinced the USFS and US Park Service are not for her. This after several wonderful seasonal jobs with the Park Service and related. The government can be a very beurocratic, non communicative enterprise. If you get in....you are a lucky rarity that can tolerate all the dumb stuff to navigate to the truth. Unfortunately, she's too young to know that and keep trying....so they lose a very good resource. And get some pot smoking flunkie with a "forest approved" degree. Oh, and this was to do interpretation stuff for tourists at parks. Env Sci? Nah! We don't need that!

The other method, the USAjobs website, is a farce. You can apply to hundreds of openings that you are qualified for, and never hear back. She is so frustrated after 2 years of trying to no avail, she's going to look at the civilian careers. The USAjobs site just allowed the thousands of non-qual people to apply to every opening. (I post job ads on monster, and get lots of totally unqualified applicants). But it all boils down to humans looking at keywords for matches to their requirements. I believe they probably use offshore people to do this. So your American daughter is being filtered out by an Indian recruiter for an American Gov job. Great eh?

goamules
21-Apr-2016, 06:27
I do recruiting for Training Development professionals. We do it the opposite, traditional way. I network, talk to candidates, pre-vet them, look at work samples, discuss their work style....and only THEN submit them to my client that has a job opening. For every job opening I get, I may submit only 2 or 3 resumes, usually 1-2 get interviews, and 1 get's hired. You have a 50/50 chance or at worse a 33% chance of getting a job when I submit you. But companies are all going to these "Supplier Management Companies" that are basically offshore HR departments, for ALL their jobs, from custodian to secretary to engineer. Now many of my clients have to use them, and can no longer accept a resume from an individual, or from me, a specialty recruiter. The days of you beating the street, talking to hiring managers at the coffee shop, getting jobs through your conversations are over. It's all about being "fair" to thousands of less ambitious people that can click a job posting website. Companies are paying MORE money for another layer of HR, but in an outside vendor doing what they could do themselves. It's a crazy world......

Randy Moe
21-Apr-2016, 07:31
My 44 year old daughter teaches 4th grade. She recently told me she wishes she had pursued Fine Art instead, as she is very unhappy with administrative bureaucracy. She loves children, her 2 teenagers are well behaved imps. We don't talk career for them as I have no idea what to advise.

Just now the radio said USA unemployment is at a 4 decade low.

Perhaps my point is, pursue your dream.

Jobs always found me. I was never fired. My reviews nearly perfect. Then 2008 broke my spirit.

Art...seldom pays...

Corran
21-Apr-2016, 09:31
A short stint in high school education was all I needed to ascertain that it wasn't where I wanted to be...both due to administration and students (oh, and parents).

The times change, hiring practices change. I don't think direct face-to-face interaction before even applying for a job works in a national search. Unless you want only local candidates.

Kirk Gittings
21-Apr-2016, 09:35
So who got it? Who is the new, bonafied, govt sanctioned Ansel Adams? :)

Randy Moe
21-Apr-2016, 10:00
So who got it? Who is the new, bonafied, govt sanctioned Ansel Adams? :)

We will find out, probably later...

johnmsanderson
21-Apr-2016, 10:10
I got the same email.

Sal Santamaura
21-Apr-2016, 16:58
...her 2 teenagers are well behaved imps. We don't talk career for them as I have no idea what to advise...When discussing that subject with young people, I advise that I've found only two really good choices. Lottery winner or retiree. :)

Kirk Gittings
21-Apr-2016, 19:09
I advise them that it's a different world than when I got started in. They will have to invent their own goals and path to get there.......just as I had to do in my time.

don12x20
27-Apr-2016, 14:54
Lets not forget that the job may already have someone that they (government) desire to have in the position, but they have to advertise and "interview" candidates. I sit on a local Board for a local Friends of "x" organization for a government operaton. I watched the government side hold onto a person they wanted for a position but still have to advertise and interview - this was last year. And just last night the same thing came up when the government leader was describing their staffing plans to the Friends Board of a new position - they already had the perfect candidate (a contractor) but needed to "advertise" and "interview" -- its the law....

by the way, in both cases, the person they had preselected was really perfect for the position.

So possibly this is also happening for this job? We'll never know....

goamules
28-Apr-2016, 07:25
I find most hiring managers want the best person for the job. Internal candidates are often seen as the best choice, because many of the unknown factors are accounted for, compared to a untried resource. The person's work ethic, personality style, experience with current customers, understanding of the particular vernacular all go into account, with a known person.

Regardless of the job description, which are usually pretty poor representations of the actual job, the deciders have their own internal priorities, that may not be stated. If the job is to photograph historic monuments, what STYLE do they want? Documentary, or for Marketing/Tourism? Do they want a visionary person to transform the project, or a worker bee that won't step on toes? Do they want a hiker than can carry his equipment, or someone that can schmooze the site leads to make sure they get the best access for the shots? LOTS goes into finding out what the person wants. And the job posting won't list any of that.

Posting a random ad, that is then linked to by dozens of photography sites, tweeted, Facebooked, and all did a disservice to the search. Instead of quietly doing a "pull" search, talking to the best people already known, then expanding the search slightly to find someone available, they got THOUSANDS of random resumes with probably hundreds that were not 10% qualified. They did a "push" search, with the internet pushing all those resumes at them. That's why USAjobs (used for all Gov jobs now) only opens a job for usually one week now - they want just a manageable, few, resumes to think about. They post it, make you apply through their klunky online system, then they close it a few days later. It's a game for job seekers They don't CARE about getting quality candidates. They care about not overwhelming their HR people that typically have NO background in the field being hired.

djdister
28-Apr-2016, 08:50
I find most hiring managers want the best person for the job. Internal candidates are often seen as the best choice, because many of the unknown factors are accounted for, compared to a untried resource. The person's work ethic, personality style, experience with current customers, understanding of the particular vernacular all go into account, with a known person.
.... snip .....
They post it, make you apply through their klunky online system, then they close it a few days later. It's a game for job seekers They don't CARE about getting quality candidates. They care about not overwhelming their HR people that typically have NO background in the field being hired.

As a government hiring manager, I agree with your first point and disagree with parts of your last point. I do care about getting quality candidates. I am required by OPM regulations to go through the USAJOBS process. I can choose how long I want the vacancy posted, and if I have some good folks in mind already I will suggest they apply when it is published. The HR people don't need a background in the field being hired, that's what me and my Subject Matter Expert are for in weeding out the unqualified candidates and getting a manageable number of folks to interview. Obviously its not the best process in the world, but its what we have, and we are required to use it by law.

goamules
28-Apr-2016, 11:44
You're right, the processes have background reasons and have to be followed.

Here is an example though. This week I'm searching for two ESL trainers, for adult learners. I am contracted by the HR dept of a client to find some, they are having trouble. I need lots of details, but cannot get any because they don't want me to talk to the hiring manager. That is more where I'm coming from. In the past, a Hiring Manager did a lot to decide who he would get to work for him. Over time, it's become filtered by layers of bureaucracy. So like you say, even if you know someone perfect for the job, you cannot talk to them until they apply through the HR channels. What happens if the HR person filters him out, and doesn't pass their resume on to you to "consider?" How do you know their "vetting" is well done, if they know nothing about your career field? As an example, would you want unqualified people to select surgeons or Aerospace engineers? They do all the time. The person that needs the position filled has to wait, and hope, the HR people give him some good resumes, and don't throw away some other good ones. You are at the mercy of people that try to fill different positions daily, custodians, secretaries, managers, machinists, pilots.....HOW can an HR Generalists be expected to find good people, not knowing the jargon, then the background substitutes for that jargon, then the relevant related experience, etc? They .....cannot.

Oren Grad
2-Aug-2016, 13:27
And the winner is Jarob Ortiz:

http://archive.jsonline.com/entertainment/arts/national-park-service-picks-milwaukee-native-as-its-new-photographer-b99764716z1-388295361.html

Tip o' the hat to Mike Plews, by way of Mike Johnston:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2016/08/jarob-ortizs-dream-job.html

Here's his site:

http://www.jarobortiz.com/

Peter De Smidt
2-Aug-2016, 13:46
Good for him!

jnanian
2-Aug-2016, 13:52
Good for him!

+1 !

Kirk Gittings
2-Aug-2016, 13:59
Absolutely great for him. Wow if I had gotten a job with this kind of press, I would bury myself in the job at this point and try and get out of the limelight. Nothing worse than trying to do quality work with a spotlight on you.

Randy Moe
2-Aug-2016, 14:05
I like his Gary Indiana images.

Looks like they actually got the right person.

Chance2
2-Aug-2016, 14:44
Quite an opportunity. Wish him well.

scheinfluger_77
2-Aug-2016, 18:24
I'm not familiar with this person or ever seen his work before but after looking at his website I agree with Randy, they got the right person. There isn't a hair out of place in any of his compositions, that's impressive.

bob carnie
3-Aug-2016, 06:20
I think that Drew should have gotten this job, we would then get real proof that Bigfoot exists. Bummer

Drew Wiley
3-Aug-2016, 09:38
I like the job description of "fussy, old-fashioned, cumbersome cameras". I never knew there was any other kind. But I'd hardly classify it as a dream job. One
would be restricted to cranking out stereotypical scenic fare. I'd chafe under that straightjacket.

Drew Wiley
3-Aug-2016, 09:43
Bob - the History Channel already did a whole series of Bigfoot Proof segments. The had actual pictures of him sneaking around the tufa towers at Mono Lake, just a few yards from a popular parking lot, in fact. Then they had his prints all around the boat dock at June Lake - another really remote widerness spot visited only
by tens of thousands of people a year. Then they claimed he lives on whitebark pine nuts in inaccessible Lundy Canyon (another very popular spot with a paved
road halfway up it). So there is only one logical scientific conclusion left to explain why daytime sightings of Bigfoot are so rare - he spends his day in the June
Lake ski resort bar!

bob carnie
3-Aug-2016, 09:59
Drew I have never seen a posted picture of you.. just sayin

Drew Wiley
3-Aug-2016, 10:19
I'm clean shaven at the moment, with a full head of hair and little gray. By the end of the month I'll look more like a half-bleached porcupine, and probably smell
worse than Bigfoot. Reminds me of what a friend commented when the snow stopped long enough to peek out of our tents and see two young guys postholing down a pass after three weeks out, "They've ceased to be human and have become marmots".

Randy Moe
3-Aug-2016, 10:19
Drew I have never seen a posted picture of you.. just sayin

I have seen his foot prints. 1970 Pismo Beach Dunes had giant footprints, at least 24 x12", but I was alone and no camera.

They looked like huge plywood shoe soles, perhaps made by advanced european wood finishing tools. :)

Drew Wiley
3-Aug-2016, 13:39
Not me. Not Pismo. We used to drive through the fossil beds around Avenal, chip around a bit, and end up at Pismo to get away from the heat when I was a little kid. But 1970 was several years after my own Bigfoot hoax episode. John K. would be the likely culprit!

Wayne
3-Aug-2016, 15:44
There isn't a hair out of place in any of his compositions, that's impressive.

True but they left me quite empty. He's technically skilled though, and that was a big part of what they wanted. Congratulations and good luck to him.

Jac@stafford.net
3-Aug-2016, 16:03
I just received an e-mail from someone who said the only reason the candidate won was due to 'veterans preference'. Really?
.

Mark Sawyer
3-Aug-2016, 16:53
I have seen his foot prints. 1970 Pismo Beach Dunes had giant footprints, at least 24 x12", but I was alone and no camera.

They looked like huge plywood shoe soles, perhaps made by advanced european wood finishing tools. :)

Ah, ULF! (Ultra-Large Footprints...)

crispin cliff
20-Sep-2016, 19:11
Hi,
It is informative post.I need this that you mentioned above.Is this a joke??
Thanks..