VDS 8X10 camera first impressions

[koh303]

Just got the very first VDS 8X10 camera from Hungary. This is a precision made, finely hand crafted camera, with sharp looks and interesting features. The key point evident everywhere around this camera is the though put in to reduce weight. It is LIGHT - weighing at 3.35KG, this not even the "ultralight" model (which is made of all American Walnut and aluminum vs Stainless Steel hardware here).
This is truely a mix of old and new worlds, with fince wood working and thoughful design, along with very neat and efficient hardware and fixtures of modern composite materials.

The wood finish is a smooth matt oiled finish with no coating which makes the camera feel almost alive. Despite its feather weight, the camera feels solid, and rigid when closed, and especially when fully set up. Bellows is made of high tech fabric (dust/water/tear proof) and lined with fine leather. The bellows is interchangble, though we have not yet seen a bag bellows option for this camera - we cannot imagine there is something VDS cannot do, so do not rule that out as a future option. The hand strap is hand stiched and lazer engraved, and looks and works great.

All hardware is polished stainless steel, with some aluminum lock nuts (though most are SS). All nuts sit on nylon washers which are coupled with SS washers to provide a very tight lock with out the need for a lot of force. The locking nut's cut is very coarse and offers excellent grip.

The basic design offers an almost full range of movements:
Front - Rise/Fall, Shift, Swing, Tilt (on and off axis), all in generous amounts.
Rear - Tilt, swing. Swong and negative tilt are fairly limited, but that is most likely due to an attempt to keep the rear as rigid as can be with this type of setup. The camera takes standard Sinar/Horseman boards, or you can order custom VDS wooden boards to fit the camera.
Folding/Unfolding the camera works much like most reverese closing field cameras (deardorff/tachihara) and latches closed with a small swinging clasp. The focus rack is similar to that found on Nagaoka/Ikeda cameras, with two axles racking the same frame. Both Must be unlocked to rack the focus. The camera offers 22+ inches of max draw and under 3 inches minimum (with bed frame racked all the way in).
Ground glass is a basic glass unit, that could optionally be upgraded to a Polycryilic lazer etched unit. The basic GG offers good brightness and no markings.

Pairing this with ultra light wooden 8X10 film holders seems only natural, and the wood on wood feel is smooth and nice.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/12299352_854182491367255_5717253847929011764_n.jpg?oh=c1318cdfb78e949e5807c4cc3a6f7e96&oe=56AFF61C
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t31.0-8/s960x960/12265920_854182554700582_3329397322099986802_o.jpg

More photos and details here:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.854182344700603.1073741855.276274625824714&type=3

[StoneNYC]

How does the stiffness compare to a Chamonix or Gibilini or Canham? Interesting design. Have you tried the front standard with a heavy lens?

[koh303]

How does the stiffness compare to a Chamonix or Gibilini or Canham? Interesting design. Have you tried the front standard with a heavy lens?

It is as rigid and stable as both. The weak part of the Gibellini is the front standard assembly, which might have been redesigned in the new version, and yet fares very nicely with even super heavy lenses. This camera fares well with a 300mm F5.6 at infinity, and fares better then a Deardorff V8 at full extension (no bed/frame bow). I will need to compare side by side with a Chamonix to answer that with regards to full extension. If i ever get another Chamonix 8X10, ill try to do a coca cola test.

But really it compares by costing less then 1/2 of a Gibellini and 1/2 (or less) of a Chamonix.

When do you use full extension with super heavy lenses out of the studio? I guess thats a theoretical question.

[Ari]

Interesting, I'd never heard of the VDS prior to this, and interesting what you say about the Gibellini's front standard.
I have a new "N" series 8x10 on order, I expect it here before Xmas, and I've been told quite the opposite by a few owners, as well as the owner of the company; they swore up and down that the Gibellini was as steady as a monorail. That's what convinced me to buy one. The new version (N) is expected to be even stronger and lighter.
In any case, I'd be happy to post a detailed review once I get it; congratulations on your new purchase.

[koh303]

Interesting, I'd never heard of the VDS prior to this, and interesting what you say about the Gibellini's front standard.
I have a new "N" series 8x10 on order, I expect it here before Xmas, and I've been told quite the opposite by a few owners, as well as the owner of the company; they swore up and down that the Gibellini was as steady as a monorail. That's what convinced me to buy one. The new version (N) is expected to be even stronger and lighter.
In any case, I'd be happy to post a detailed review once I get it; congratulations on your new purchase.

There is nothing wrong with the Gibellini, as i noted, it is very stable. That said, the front standard rails (vertical posts) are not inter connected with an axle, allowing for lateral sway when loosened. I just looked at the new design proposal/rendering on the site for the N model. While the above has not changed, it looks like the struts are now fully matched and not set on washers (as with the original), and i believe that will eliminate most of this problem and sure up the front quite a bit.
Still - its a premium thing, at a premium price, and you really pay for what you get. One cannot expect a modestly priced product to compete with one of the most expensive ones, its not meant to. Does it make it less capable? I dont think so.

[Jim Graves]

Do you have a link to their website ... when I try searching VDS camera hungary ... I come up empty. Thanks

[lecarp]

From reading your facebook page I gather this is basically an advertisement for something you will be selling at Catlabs.

[StoneNYC]

It is as rigid and stable as both. The weak part of the Gibellini is the front standard assembly, which might have been redesigned in the new version, and yet fares very nicely with even super heavy lenses. This camera fares well with a 300mm F5.6 at infinity, and fares better then a Deardorff V8 at full extension (no bed/frame bow). I will need to compare side by side with a Chamonix to answer that with regards to full extension. If i ever get another Chamonix 8X10, ill try to do a coca cola test.

But really it compares by costing less then 1/2 of a Gibellini and 1/2 (or less) of a Chamonix.

When do you use full extension with super heavy lenses out of the studio? I guess thats a theoretical question.

Thanks for that, interesting. Well the longest/heaviest lens I own is the 24" RD Artar in barrel with a Sinar Copal shutter, although I mostly use the 600 C which isn't that heavy, but I do regularly use it with movements on my Chamonix so proper balance and vibration are a concern for me, I'm always open to considering a better design if it gives less camera shake/vibration, etc. It's interesting because by looking at the camera the first thought I had in my mind was that the front standard looked very thin and possibly prone to vibration issues, so it's good to hear that actually the front standard is very strong and sturdy, like anything looks can be deceiving. I never used a Gibilini before so I can't say for sure about that, those new aluminum deigns are impressive, but does take away that "nostalgic" feel that the wooden designs give you. Although ultimately it's the image that counts.


From reading your facebook page I gather this is basically an advertisement for something you will be selling at Catlabs.

Yea of course, I suppose this thread could be moved to the "announcements" area but either way it's useful to see a new design, the svedorsky (or however you spell it) was also recently posted so it's neat to compare these two lower priced models.

It's nice to see affordable models in 8x10 coming out.

I'm curious if intrepid will come out with an 8x10 design, that could be great for schools who want a low cost option. But this VDS design seems nice and a good price point.

[Cor]

So are there now 2 "companies" manufacturing LF cameras in Hungary or is this VDS the same as Argentum ?

Best,

Cor

[Drew Bedo]

Did I miss a link to a mfg page?

I only saw the pics showing it folded and at ~12" extension. Is there an extension rail?

And the big question: How much?

[Michael R]

Drew - based on what I can find on the Catlabs site it looks to be $2,200 for the camera. That's a pretty impressive price point for 8x10.

While it's nice to see there's enough demand out there to warrant new camera entrants, I have to be honest and say I wish some of these would really offer something new or "better" from a design perspective. Looking at the various offerings, it really doesn't seem like there's much innovation or improvement besides the obsession with weight. A few newer materials used sparingly here and there, but mostly the same old same old.

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...] it really doesn't seem like there's much innovation or improvement besides the obsession with weight.

Isn't that enough? Defeating the increasing strength of gravity is a virtuous endeavor. Maybe that is something only us oldies can appreciate.

[Michael R]

I suppose. Fair point.

I'd just like to see someone really "raise the bar" rather than just oscillating within the old confines (weight vs rigidity) without anything groundbreaking. Just my two cents.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I wonder how one could raise the bar with these types of cameras, other than weight, as mentioned, without sacrificing movements, rigidity, etc.

[Michael R]

I have a few ideas. Also I wish some of the shortcomings (shortcomings in my opinion I guess) of traditional designs would be looked at, rather than just figuring out how to make the same camera a little lighter (and more rickety). There should probably be more field testing too. It seems like a camera is released and it's supposed to be the best, and then lo and behold either months or a few years later there's a revised version with "improvements" (ie fixes).

Then again you can never get agreement on camera characteristics, so these are only my opinions.

[pdh]

I'd just like to see someone really "raise the bar" rather than just oscillating within the old confines.

One of the confines that the newer makers (these folk, svedovsky) seem to be addressing is cost of entry to 10x8.

Making truly innovative big cameras in the 21st century would I expect also mean rather a big retail price, given the relatively small market.

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...]There should probably be more field testing too.

Agreed. I had the enlightening experience of learning how our composites material engineers went about things. Rather than simply casting a new product in a traditional design, entirely new thoughts must be considered. Look for example at CF tripods. Largely the same old but in new materials. Certainly a weight savings, but I wonder.

A project taken on by one chap was surprising. He went about to create violin bows in carbon fiber thinking the dimensional stability was a primary virtue. It was one virtue but the bows turned out to be too light! Balance in the hand, inertial qualities were things only a master violinist could evaluate. All is well now thanks to lots of feedback and his responsiveness.

Being facetious: what we need is a view camera that is light when carried, but heavy on the tripod. That's the same dream of women's shoes that are larger on the inside than the outside.

[John Layton]

Layton L-45A:146952146953146954146955

[koh303]

There is a link just under the photos to more photos.
Google VDS camera and you will most likely find all the answers in the second and third results.

[Taija71A]

Did I miss a link to a mfg page?

Actually, perhaps... "Yes and No."
--
http://vdscamera.com/
VDS Camera Homepage

(Please visit a few days later!)

[koh303]

Layton L-45A:146952146953146954146955

a blast from the past - is this directly related to this thread?

[John Layton]

Relates directly...yes - to each entry above mine on the 2nd page of this thread. Perhaps not to the OP's question...but more in response to the questions and suggestions about the possibilities of creating something new and innovative, "raising the bar," etc.

[koh303]

Relates directly...yes - to each entry above mine on the 2nd page of this thread. Perhaps not to the OP's question...but more in response to the questions and suggestions about the possibilities of creating something new and innovative, "raising the bar," etc.

is this camera currently being made or offered for sale? Where? What is the price?
What is innovating about it not found in any other camera?
If not being sold, then this is a theoretical comment.

[John Layton]

There's nothing theoretical about the L-45A. It exists. Its patented. This and the previous model have received industry awards (American Photographer's "Editor's Choice" Awards and Photo Plus Expo "Vision" Award). Nice Writeup in View Camera. Serious attention, with signed agreements, from both Linhof and Sinar (ultimately could not fit into either's "DNA" - so had to back out).

Very long, exhausting story about why its not currently on the market, but for now, I'm just trying to add to the general discussion about the possibility of something that's just a bit different than other offerings, by using my design as an example. So sorry if I have offended you in any way.

[koh303]

Very long, exhausting story about why its not currently on the market
Actually it seems its a very short one, i am not offended, but i do not see any innovation here, unless you can point them out, let alone, in something that never got made.
Many concept cars have very innovative aspects that never make it to market because of "reasons", none of which matters when you go to buy one and find none of those innovations are available.

[Laura_Campbell]

There's nothing theoretical about the L-45A. It exists. Its patented. This and the previous model have received industry awards (American Photographer's "Editor's Choice" Awards and Photo Plus Expo "Vision" Award). Nice Writeup in View Camera. Serious attention, with signed agreements, from both Linhof and Sinar (ultimately could not fit into either's "DNA" - so had to back out).

Very long, exhausting story about why its not currently on the market, but for now, I'm just trying to add to the general discussion about the possibility of something that's just a bit different than other offerings, by using my design as an example. So sorry if I have offended you in any way.

That's sad to hear. What about crowdfunding? I'm an optimist. I've seen others raise funds for new cameras. Have you considered a crowdfunding option?

[Andrew Plume]

Yes, I have the edition of VC where it was reviewed, very rigid and beautiful, from memory the price was a lot higher than what was around at the time, even though the rigidity was I'm sure far superior

andrew

[europanorama]

Drew - based on what I can find on the Catlabs site it looks to be $2,200 for the camera. That's a pretty impressive price point for 8x10.

While it's nice to see there's enough demand out there to warrant new camera entrants, I have to be honest and say I wish some of these would really offer something new or "better" from a design perspective. Looking at the various offerings, it really doesn't seem like there's much innovation or improvement besides the obsession with weight. A few newer materials used sparingly here and there, but mostly the same old same old.
price is almost identical to argentum II. it looks like its argentum inside. but i have no details. dont know difference to argentum. AII is custom-made. aka for catlabs.
look at the prices. 1990 euros only body. 2500 usd with lens and holders at catlabs. = good price.
vds-website still offline.

[Vaughn]

Very beautiful camera, John.

There have been a very large amount of innovation in design and in the use of new materials with view cameras. The Horseman "L" standards were a departure from the norm. Designing field cameras to easily and safely fold must be an interesting puzzle to work on! But form needs to follow function, so there is a limit I suppose on what can be achieved in a field camera.

I particularily like my simple Gowland PocketView (I just carried it around for 6 days backpacking). No bell or whistles. But weighs 2.5 pounds with the 150mm/5.6 on it. It does 'fold up', but certainly not into a safe shell-like configuration. And turning the camera on its side for horizontals is not everyone's cup of tea -- and there's no back shift or rise/fall on mine. But if weight and space in the pack were no issue, I would have taken the 8x10!

I'll be curious to see the VDS 5x7 if there is one.

[Oren Grad]

I'll be curious to see the VDS 5x7 if there is one.

There is an album showing the 5x7 model on the builder's Facebook site:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1724119384498957.1073741829.1724033857840843&type=3

[koh303]

There is an album showing the 5x7 model on the builder's Facebook site:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1724119384498957.1073741829.1724033857840843&type=3

That model is not longer available, though there is a VDS 5X7 that is.

[Ken Sinclair]

There seems to be no mention of the bellows 'draw' on the 8x10. I am able to mount.... and use.... a 480mm Rodenstock lens on my old and much experienced Burke and James 'woodie'.

OK... I'm getting older and 'greyer'... and should now be looking for something a little less 'mass' to humph around.

Ken

[Just Me]

I know this thread is a little old, but I just got a VDS camera and have found the bellows to be way too thin so that a flashlight put inside it in my darkroom can easily be seen through the cloth. This would not likely show up as obvious flare or light leak on the film, but as slight fog. Anyone else notice this or did I just get a bad one?