Anyone use the B&W King 5x7 (or 4x5) developing reel & tank (Nikor-like)?

[Megapixel]

Has anyone tried the B&W King (http://www.bw-king.com/) developing reel & tank system? It appears similar in design to the Nikkor 4x5 reel & tank (which some like, others do not). Unlike the Nikkor, one B&W King model will take 5x7 film, up to 6 at a time. The construction differs from the Nikkor in that the spiral reel ends are cast stainless, so it does not have the numerous welds that the Nikkor required to manufacture.

B&W King web site (http://www.bw-king.com/)
Demo on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqikgrXq-9c).

They are also sold on eBay.

Thank you.

[Tin Can]

Never heard of it.

Looks good at first blush.

Need a road test.

[Bob Mann]

I have the 5x7, reel has little wheels on the bottom and there is a handle so you can spin the reel. Nikkor tank does not have this. Construction is good, but top does leak a little when inverting on mine. There are not many daylight tanks for 5x7 other than a Jobo. Results are fine, loading is no problem for me - but I use IR goggles - might be a problem working in the dark.

[jose angel]

Doesn`t the central "core" arc part touch the sheets while loading/unloading? All my developing devices are designed to avoid parts in possible contact with the image area.

[Bob Mann]

Doesn`t the central "core" arc part touch the sheets while loading/unloading? All my developing devices are designed to avoid parts in possible contact with the image area.

No, you load this like the 4x5 Nikkor tank. Sheets should be flat so they glide into top and bottom slots. If you are worried about touching, you could use every other slot. The spin agitation puts less stress on the sheets so they should not touch during processing.

[jose angel]

Thanks Bob.

[David Aimone]

Do you invert when developing, or just use the internal rotation?


I have the 5x7, reel has little wheels on the bottom and there is a handle so you can spin the reel. Nikkor tank does not have this. Construction is good, but top does leak a little when inverting on mine. There are not many daylight tanks for 5x7 other than a Jobo. Results are fine, loading is no problem for me - but I use IR goggles - might be a problem working in the dark.

[Bob Mann]

Do you invert when developing, or just use the internal rotation?

I do not invert the tank, rotation works OK.

[Stephen Thomason]

The system looks interesting. I'm going to follow this thread and will be interested in others' experiences.

[scheinfluger_77]

That looks kind of neat, a road test is indeed called for. At ~$200 for a 5x7 set it's not ...too horrible...

Bob Mann what do you use for goggles and where are the found (besides ebay of course)? I have almost 0 knowledge about them.

[Bob Mann]

Eu
That looks kind of neat, a road test is indeed called for. At ~$200 for a 5x7 set it's not ...too horrible...

Bob Mann what do you use for goggles and where are the found (besides ebay of course)? I have almost 0 knowledge about them.

I use the ATN Viper goggles, a Google search should show venders other than EBay. I use them to load sheet film holders, to watch sheet film develop in dip tanks, even been using them for watching roll film develop in tanks with the lid off. Search this forum for a number of threads on using them.

[Duolab123]

I have the 5x7, reel has little wheels on the bottom and there is a handle so you can spin the reel. Nikkor tank does not have this. Construction is good, but top does leak a little when inverting on mine. There are not many daylight tanks for 5x7 other than a Jobo. Results are fine, loading is no problem for me - but I use IR goggles - might be a problem working in the dark.

Three cheers for the IR googles! Kodak and the rest have used for years. I'm using some toy set that I bungee to my head. Amazing! I have a Nikor sheer tank and the CL81 8x10 reel. There a piece of cake with the goggles, damned scary without.

[Duolab123]

142955
You look pretty dumb but these work. Jakks Pacific Spy Net IR goggles. Two sets of LEDs one full IR the other near IR. I taped over the NIR LEDS so I wouldn't accidentally activate. The IR LEDS have had absolutely no effect on any film I've tried. Obviously no Ilford or Maco IR. Now I have installed a IR flood on the wall 20 bucks off of eBay.
I covered the IR LEDS on the binoculars because it is so bright it blinds you, silver halide emulsions are bright white by IR. I can hold a Hewes reel in my hand and read "British Made" in total darkness. I paid about 75 bucks for the binoculars on Amazon. I use a bungee to hold them to my face. You watch what's going on via a small color led tv screen built into the goggles, I need glasses to read but I have a pair that fits inside.
I'm totally sold on this,I use them as insurance I don't do something stupid, with the cost of 8 x10 film I'm not taking any chances. And I actually prefer the Jobo 2509n reels now as they are a piece of cake to load when you can see.
For 75 bucks don't expect the moon. Single lens means no depth perception at all, manual focus wheel for plastic lens, in hot weather my glasses fog up, very narrow field of view. But you can see exactly what you NEED to see to insure reels, holders, and hangers are loade exactly as intended.
Mike.

[EdSawyer]

Clever, good ingenuity. Bob is right re: Materials differences but you should be able to notice that before it becomes an issue.

As a somewhat related side note: Someone in China is remaking the Nikor 4x5 sheet film tanks now, although they only do 10 instead of 12 sheets, and are not adjustable like the Nikor tanks. Also they are basically as expensive so no real value there... but it is interesting someone in china ripped off that design and remade it.

Ed

[Light Guru]

As a somewhat related side note: Someone in China is remaking the Nikor 4x5 sheet film tanks now, although they only do 10 instead of 12 sheets, and are not adjustable like the Nikor tanks. Also they are basically as expensive so no real value there... but it is interesting someone in china ripped off that design and remade it.

Do you have any more information about this? weblink etc?

[R.K]

Those Chinese tanks available on EBAY. The sellers name bw-king. It is not a copy of old Nikkor tank. Instead it is a much better designed and developed tank. They have web site too http://bw-king.com/. I have one and very happy with it. It expensive but probably the old Nikkor on the EBAY will cost the same but will be used and no warranty that it will be easily to load it in the darkness. I have two old Nikkor's too, so I can compare.

[EdSawyer]

R.K. mentions the correct info re: the copy of the Nikor tank. What's better about the design? I dont' see much, other than maybe the top plate allowing more flow possibly? (but is that even an issue with the Nikor?) Good luck on that warranty with China, btw. is this tank really any easier to load, other than the fact it takes 10 sheets instead of 12?

This part of their website is both amusing and ironic, given this is a straight-up copy of the Nikor tank, basically:

"The design of the product as well as the logo of B&W KING owns intellectual property rights, ratified by Chinese National Industrial and Commercial Bureau and China's State Intellectual Property Office."

[R.K]

R.K. mentions the correct info re: the copy of the Nikor tank. What's better about the design? I dont' see much, other than maybe the top plate allowing more flow possibly? (but is that even an issue with the Nikor?) Good luck on that warranty with China, btw. is this tank really any easier to load, other than the fact it takes 10 sheets instead of 12?

This part of their website is both amusing and ironic, given this is a straight-up copy of the Nikor tank, basically:

"The design of the product as well as the logo of B&W KING owns intellectual property rights, ratified by Chinese National Industrial and Commercial Bureau and China's State Intellectual Property Office."

Ed. New tank made much stronger that the old Nikkor. The metal parts thicker, welding much better, nice metal guides for the film. You don't need the spring part to hold the film in place. It is no difference how film oriented when loaded in the tank. In the Nikkor tank if you not correctly orient the emulsion side of the film while loading, your negative will be ruined because it touching the middle metal guide. In the new tank film don't touch nothing in the middle and supported only for the edges.

[David Aimone]

143927

First batch of 5x7's through this tank. Two came out like this. It's my fault though, I didn't push the film in far enough I think, and two sheets came completely out of the reel during agitation. Two others partially sticking out but fine, the last two stayed in. Next time I will make sure they are all completely behind the reel's bars when loading.

The second thing is the tank does leak, even a little when agitating standing up after replacing liquid during development. Just a bit. I can live with it!

The GOOD news is that the four good images came out really nice. Good, even development with no problems. You can see those here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ioglass/albums/72157662147903390).

[Stephen Thomason]

The King tank does look very nice. $180.00 for the 4x5. That may be a little pricey, but, considering the price of blood pressure meds and anti-depressants which are necessary before loading my Jobo reels, with the guide by the way, the King tank might look even more attractive!

Sometimes the Jobo will load almost by itself, and other times I am tempted to turn on the lights to see what the problem is.

[bw-king]

Good photographer friend.
I am a B&W KING of the designer Liu.
Very glad to be here and everybody discussion B&W KING developing tank.Problems and solutions.
This product is the time I spent eight years of design, I also am a photographer, and users.Photography is without borders, I hope more photographers use it, enjoy it.
thank you

[Leszek Vogt]

Is there a way to stop the leaking ? Aside from ebay, is there a distributor in US or on this continent ? Thanks.

Les

[bw-king]

Is there a way to stop the leaking ? Aside from ebay, is there a distributor in US or on this continent ? Thanks.

Les
Dear Leszek Vogt:
I don't know you speak of leakage, leakage liquid or leakage light?At the same time operating problems?
1, because the jar is stainless steel, vertical operation not leakage.
If long time placed horizontally, can cover is fit, likely to leak.But this is the wrong operation.
2, the jar of interlayer is can adjust height with screws.To control the speed of the pumping liquid from the top.If interlayer height is too high, you're in a very bright light operation, the need to reduce interlayer height, avoid the from the roof.(modified method introduce another)
3, at present, from China to the United States and other European countries, in the EBAY is one of the most economic.Freight only 25 to $28.
If the normal ems express delivery, need $70 to $80, it's terrible.
I couldn't speak English, computer translation, may be inaccurate, forgive me
thank you

[bw-king]

Is there a way to stop the leaking ? Aside from ebay, is there a distributor in US or on this continent ? Thanks.

Les

B&W KING now no agent distributors in the United States.
thank you

[Rael]

142955
You look pretty dumb but these work. Jakks Pacific Spy Net IR goggles. Two sets of LEDs one full IR the other near IR. I taped over the NIR LEDS so I wouldn't accidentally activate. The IR LEDS have had absolutely no effect on any film I've tried. Obviously no Ilford or Maco IR. Now I have installed a IR flood on the wall 20 bucks off of eBay. .

Can you post a link of which IR flood you bought? I bought one with about 50 leds, and within a week, more than 3/4 of them were out. I read that an unregulated wall wart, even of the right voltage and amperage, could do that.

[Oren Grad]

Discussions from two threads merged here.

[mdarnton]

Regarding leaking with SS tanks. It's been my experience through the years that SS tanks with SS lids ALWAYS leak, even the best ones. I keep a roll of electrical tape in my darkroom, and always wrap one turn around the lid/tank joint when processing, and that does the trick.

[Sal Santamaura]

To glean more information about leakage and materials' actual performance in the subject tank system, see Bob's current F/S ad for his sample:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?127404-FS-5x7-Developing-tank-Like-the-4x5-Nikor-made-in-China

[Bob Mann]

Regarding leaking with SS tanks. It's been my experience through the years that SS tanks with SS lids ALWAYS leak, even the best ones. I keep a roll of electrical tape in my darkroom, and always wrap one turn around the lid/tank joint when processing, and that does the trick.

That was my experience with the 5x7 B&W King tank. Tape makes a lot of sense, instead of tape I just did not invert the tank, the spinner makes stationary processing easy and results in no leakage. The few times I did invert it I used a few sheets of paper towel over the top. Because of the size of 5x7 film and the volume of fluid I would avoid inversion as it might dislodge the sheets of film in the reel.

[R.K]

Just check today my King 4x5 on leaks. My don't leaking. Just a drop of liquid came out from the tank when I invert it and hold for a few seconds in that position. Maybe 5x7 leaking because it bigger than 4x5.

[Duolab123]

Can you post a link of which IR flood you bought? I bought one with about 50 leds, and within a week, more than 3/4 of them were out. I read that an unregulated wall wart, even of the right voltage and amperage, could do that.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/164Feet-4LED-Infrared-Night-vision-IR-Light-illuminator-lamp-W-US-Power-supply-/171843235335?hash=item2802a7ae07:g:4kMAAOSwT6pVk1aV

This is where I got my light has 4 leds 18.95, I have nothing to do with this guy, Mine seems to work OK . This kind of stuff is all over ebay. Good Luck

[Oren Grad]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/164Feet-4LED-Infrared-Night-vision-IR-Light-illuminator-lamp-W-US-Power-supply-/171843235335?hash=item2802a7ae07:g:4kMAAOSwT6pVk1aV

This is where I got my light has 4 leds 18.95, I have nothing to do with this guy, Mine seems to work OK . This kind of stuff is all over ebay. Good Luck

Please describe it - model number, any other identifying information, name of seller - so that others might have a chance to find it when that listing scrolls off.

[Duolab123]

Please describe it - model number, any other identifying information, name of seller - so that others might have a chance to find it when that listing scrolls off.

It looks to me to be a simple commodity item produced in the PRC. Any IR source for security cameras should work, this technology has made my 59 yr. Old fingers a lot more sure when loading film, especially sheet film reels 2509n and CL81. I just love the technology, I sit down and take my time and everything comes out perfectly using the IR GOGGLES.

[David Aimone]

Developed nicely on the second batch, but the blackened metal light damper at the top of mine is rusting a bit after two uses as well. That's a bit worrisome...

[bw-king]

Developed nicely on the second batch, but the blackened metal light damper at the top of mine is rusting a bit after two uses as well. That's a bit worrisome...

Dear David
For your question, I consulted the developing tank manufacturers.
1, B&W King development of all parts of the tank to take stainless steel processing. The sandwich pot cover, and the shell is also used as the material of stainless steel.
2, the tank cover is to take the "QPQ" process (Polish - Quench - Quench), change the appearance of stainless steel "black", in order to reduce the development of the tank into the light, to ensure the development of film.
I think: at present, after the use of the "traces" is not rust, it should be the agent in the QPQ coating left traces. This trace can be wiped gently, not firmly.
The structure of the developing pot cover is multilayer, and the rotating parts are multilayer, and the liquid medicine is easy to be retained.
Therefore, to avoid residual liquid and "QPQ" after the treatment of stainless steel produce "traces", I suggest that in each use of the development tank, should be soaked in water washing, and with a hot air dryer after the preservation.
I'm using this product, and I'm dealing with it.
This "trace" on the film is affected, I have not received the relevant information.
The above reply, I wonder if you can lift your concerns.

B&W King development tank this product is not large, design and production related to mechanical processing, materials, casting, chemical and other aspects of knowledge. These for me a person speaking, there are many difficulties, but also have a lot of do not understand.
I hope more photographer friends, there are experts in the field, the B&W King developing tank design, performance are discussed, and Suggestions are put forward
(I can't speak English, the above is a computer translation, I do not know whether it is accurate, please forgive me)
Thank you

[Stephen Thomason]

bw-king: Excellent explanations. Your developing tank looks very nice. I will be purchasing one. Thank you for participating in the forum.

[mdarnton]

A tidbit: Stainless steel can rust if it is put in contact with regular steel at some point, and under some other conditions:
http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/Rust.pdf
Extrapolating from this, it would seem, for instance, that cleaning your SS equipment with steel wool would the the worst of bad ideas.

[David Aimone]

Thanks! I used some Q-tips to clean the rust colored stain off gently. I hope to get a lot of use out of this tank!


Dear David
For your question, I consulted the developing tank manufacturers.
1, B&W King development of all parts of the tank to take stainless steel processing. The sandwich pot cover, and the shell is also used as the material of stainless steel.
2, the tank cover is to take the "QPQ" process (Polish - Quench - Quench), change the appearance of stainless steel "black", in order to reduce the development of the tank into the light, to ensure the development of film.
I think: at present, after the use of the "traces" is not rust, it should be the agent in the QPQ coating left traces. This trace can be wiped gently, not firmly.
The structure of the developing pot cover is multilayer, and the rotating parts are multilayer, and the liquid medicine is easy to be retained.
Therefore, to avoid residual liquid and "QPQ" after the treatment of stainless steel produce "traces", I suggest that in each use of the development tank, should be soaked in water washing, and with a hot air dryer after the preservation.
I'm using this product, and I'm dealing with it.
This "trace" on the film is affected, I have not received the relevant information.
The above reply, I wonder if you can lift your concerns.

B&W King development tank this product is not large, design and production related to mechanical processing, materials, casting, chemical and other aspects of knowledge. These for me a person speaking, there are many difficulties, but also have a lot of do not understand.
I hope more photographer friends, there are experts in the field, the B&W King developing tank design, performance are discussed, and Suggestions are put forward
(I can't speak English, the above is a computer translation, I do not know whether it is accurate, please forgive me)
Thank you

[Duolab123]

A tidbit: Stainless steel can rust if it is put in contact with regular steel at some point, and under some other conditions:
http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/Rust.pdf
Extrapolating from this, it would seem, for instance, that cleaning your SS equipment with steel wool would the the worst of bad ideas.

Steel wool will destroy the finest stainless steel. Absolutely the worst possible thing to do. SS should be cleaned with Bon-Ami this is the old Kodak standby, nothing but a little soap and natural feldspar. 99 percent of the time nothing more than warm water and drying with a soft towel is required. 300 series SS has high 18 % Chromium content this forms a protective CrO coating. Free iron from any kind of ordinary ferrous metal will disrupt this and cause corrosion. Never leave these beautiful tanks in contact with ordinary iron,it will cause pitting of the stainless. Also AVOID ALL CHLORINE LIKE COMET, 304 and 316 SS shouldn't rust if you avoid iron and chlorides. To passivate the surface Nikor would recommend in extreme cases using a nitric acid bath, today many people are using citric acid. This will rejuvenate the chrome oxide surface.

[bw-king]

Thank lot of teachers to provide stainless steel materials and use of information.
B&W KING why choose stainless steel raw materials, because, I want to a photographer with a permanent use products.
A successful product, need a good design, good material, good processing.But more in need of a good method of use and use environment.
Although I used for a long time to develop this product, but with the requirement of a successful product, B&W KING still has a long way to go.
Hope the teacher, experts give more good advice.

I wish the teacher and friend, happy New Year!

[AAP]

I purchased one. Fantastic. Actually wrote a review on my blog and am in the process of a more detailed "usage" post; https://allaspectsphotography.wordpress.com I am extremely pleased with it. I purchased via eBay. Price was steep but I'd just acquired a 5x7 and it through me for a loop in my 4x5 world. Shipping, quality and performance are excellent. I develop in PMK Pyro and was a bit concerned but just followed the directions and my "standard" process. I did not invert rather I just did two full rotations every 15 seconds. Perfect results. No issues. The only tip I'd put out is that when you do load your sheets, make sure they are pushed beyond the vertical bar and snap in behind it. Otherwise, when you spin, a sheet can just slip right out (happened to me) and it'll end up pasting itself against the side of the tank...you can imagine the outcome. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this.

[AAP]

bw-king: Excellent explanations. Your developing tank looks very nice. I will be purchasing one. Thank you for participating in the forum.

Stephen, I just caught this thread and posted. I can totally recommend this. The quality is exceptional and I've put it to use without a hitch. It really feels like something that will last and that's rare in my opinion.

[John Layton]

I am so intrigued by this! This could make sheet film logistics so much simpler/more efficient, while still allowing me a range of choices for agitation scenarios (stand, semi-stand, minimal, constant, or whatever).

Noting the above reference to relatively frequent (once per 15sec) agitation cycles...my biggest concern would be the efficacy of this tank for minimal agitation (5x7 sheets in Pyrocat HD)...with a further question regarding the possibility that, during the initial wetting period at the beginning of a given run, and/or during periods of rest in between agitation cycles, and/or during the agitation cycles, there might be a chance that what looks like a mid-section support bar in each film channel might leave some kind of mark on the base(s) of the film(s). Any comments? Thanks!

[David Aimone]

I've only put a couple of batches through this tank but have not seen any marks from the support bars. But the runs have been with a lot of agitation, actually slow consistent agitation for pyrocat-mc. Next batch I will try 70m of stand development in Caffenol-CL.


I am so intrigued by this! This could make sheet film logistics so much simpler/more efficient, while still allowing me a range of choices for agitation scenarios (stand, semi-stand, minimal, constant, or whatever).

Noting the above reference to relatively frequent (once per 15sec) agitation cycles...my biggest concern would be the efficacy of this tank for minimal agitation (5x7 sheets in Pyrocat HD)...with a further question regarding the possibility that, during the initial wetting period at the beginning of a given run, and/or during periods of rest in between agitation cycles, and/or during the agitation cycles, there might be a chance that what looks like a mid-section support bar in each film channel might leave some kind of mark on the base(s) of the film(s). Any comments? Thanks!

[David Aimone]

I will strongly confirm your tip on making sure the film is in all the way (see previous post #19 with samples).

All in all, I think this is a pretty good product filling a huge void in 5x7 processing.


I purchased one. Fantastic. Actually wrote a review on my blog and am in the process of a more detailed "usage" post; https://allaspectsphotography.wordpress.com I am extremely pleased with it. I purchased via eBay. Price was steep but I'd just acquired a 5x7 and it through me for a loop in my 4x5 world. Shipping, quality and performance are excellent. I develop in PMK Pyro and was a bit concerned but just followed the directions and my "standard" process. I did not invert rather I just did two full rotations every 15 seconds. Perfect results. No issues. The only tip I'd put out is that when you do load your sheets, make sure they are pushed beyond the vertical bar and snap in behind it. Otherwise, when you spin, a sheet can just slip right out (happened to me) and it'll end up pasting itself against the side of the tank...you can imagine the outcome. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this.

[AAP]

I am so intrigued by this! This could make sheet film logistics so much simpler/more efficient, while still allowing me a range of choices for agitation scenarios (stand, semi-stand, minimal, constant, or whatever).

Noting the above reference to relatively frequent (once per 15sec) agitation cycles...my biggest concern would be the efficacy of this tank for minimal agitation (5x7 sheets in Pyrocat HD)...with a further question regarding the possibility that, during the initial wetting period at the beginning of a given run, and/or during periods of rest in between agitation cycles, and/or during the agitation cycles, there might be a chance that what looks like a mid-section support bar in each film channel might leave some kind of mark on the base(s) of the film(s). Any comments? Thanks!

You load emulsion side facing in and if there's contact, it's on the other side from what I can see. Even snapping behind the vertical bars the contact is on the back. That said, while I use PMK exclusively, I've seen zero indication of any ill effects due to the mid section guides. I've put upwards of 12 sheets through now, without issue.

[bw-king]

B&W KING 4x5' Format Stainless Steel Film Developing Tank

BWG01 For 4x5 Inches specifications of film,It will hold up to 10 sheets at a time .
height: 170 mm
diameter: Ø110mm
capacity: 1050ml
weight: 1280 g

144910

144911

[bw-king]

B&W KING 5X7' Format Stainless Steel Film Developing Tank tank series

BWG06 For 5x7 Inches specifications of film,It will hold up to 6 sheets at a time
height: 195 mm
diameter: Ø110 mm
capacity: 1350 ml
weight: 1320 g

144912

144913

[Alan9940]

Anybody else think it a little odd that the bw-king.com website domain expired a few days ago? Based on this thread, I was starting to warmup to the idea of this tank, but not if the manufacturer is going away! I looked on eBay, too, and only 2 4x5 tanks available. Maybe stock is running low? Maybe cost of the website was just to expensive based on minimal sales? Thoughts?

[AAP]

Anybody else think it a little odd that the bw-king.com website domain expired a few days ago? Based on this thread, I was starting to warmup to the idea of this tank, but not if the manufacturer is going away! I looked on eBay, too, and only 2 4x5 tanks available. Maybe stock is running low? Maybe cost of the website was just to expensive based on minimal sales? Thoughts?

Well, the website was really challenging on many counts. So, perhaps they've pulled it down to revamp? I sure hope that they're not having difficulties.

[LotusEsp]

The domain is still active. As it was registered 05-jan-2013 I would imagine the hosting was also setup at this date, which may simply mean that last week it was up for renewal and for some reason it wasnt processed.

Looks like the domain host has stopped serving that site. If you were a business revamping your site, you dont delete everything, you put a holding page up so that customers can contact you.

Could well be an admin oversight - happens all the time

[John Layton]

Hoping everything is OK. This looks like a GREAT product, and I intend to make a purchase in the near future.

[bw-king]

Well, the website was really challenging on many counts. So, perhaps they've pulled it down to revamp? I sure hope that they're not having difficulties.

... ...Looks like the domain host has stopped serving that site. If you were a business revamping your site, you dont delete everything, you put a holding page up so that customers can contact you.
Could well be an admin oversight - happens all the time

Anybody else think it a little odd that the bw-king.com website domain expired a few days ago? ... ...

B&W KING website has returned to normal.Thank you for LotusEsp, Alan9940, AAP enthusiastic attention.

http://www.bw-king.com/index.htm

[Alan9940]

Just curious... Has anyone in the USA bought a 4x5 tank directly from bw-king.com? It seems that with current exchange rates that buying direct may be a little cheaper than going the eBay route, but navigating that TaoBao website is impossible for me. If anyone bought direct, what is the procedure?

Thanks!

[R.K]

I bought on EBAY, but I send him an offer and he agreed on the price $170.

[bw-king]

Just curious... Has anyone in the USA bought a 4x5 tank directly from bw-king.com? It seems that with current exchange rates that buying direct may be a little cheaper than going the eBay route, but navigating that TaoBao website is impossible for me. If anyone bought direct, what is the procedure?Thanks!

Dear Alan9940

B&W KING is currently sold outside of China, the reasons for the use of eBay, it is his delivery costs are low.
If the DHL (China mailed to the United States, Canada) $540 RMB =80$,UPS $440 RMB=65 $,MES $475 RMB=72$.
But eBay is only $25, and the transportation time is about 10--15 days. And China Post has a network sales link procedures and paypal guarantee. So, is still a good choice.

B&W KING is a large format photography equipment, the purpose is to let more photographers use it. It is because of the unique performance with other large format does not have the developing tank. Stainless steel material that allows a photographer to permanently own it. As long as I B&W KING to ensure product quality, he is more of the country's photographer recognized and accepted, it is just a matter of time.

I also want to use more ways to sell, but I was a photographer, there is no professional sales knowledge and channels, it is to slowly learn, improve, I will work hard.Hope you have a more positive advice and help.

Thank you

[AAP]

Well, I for one am just glad to know you're back up and running and that there are no problems. As I'd previously noted the quality of the B&W King product is exceptional and innovative. I could not be happier with my 5x7 tank.

[John Layton]

Print sales are a bit slow right now...but when this changes, I'll order the 5x7 setup - can't wait!

[Alan9940]

John L - noticed your location is Newbury, VT. I lived in East Montpelier for 18 years before moving out to the desert southwest. Even though I've been here for nearly 16 years, I still miss that beautiful state!

Liu (bw-king) - Just placed my order for a 4x5 tank. Looking forward to seeing how it performs.

[John Layton]

Alan - yes, I agree with your assessment re: Vermont - but right now I'm missing the desert southwest! Where are you located?

[Alan9940]

John L - I'm in the Phoenix area. One thing I definitely don't miss about Vermont is those minus temps I see in Montpelier in the weather app. I worked in Burlington for 5 years and I'll never forget coming out of work at about 5PM and it was -65 including wind chill! Coldest I ever felt. The gas in the fuel line of my car FROZE and it wouldn't start!! We see 105 - 110 degrees out here on a regular basis during the summer months, but I either stay in the A/C and/or jump in the pool and I'm fairly comfortable. During the winter months in VT, when it was -20 to -40 we just couldn't stay warm! Don't miss that even a little bit!! :)

[AAP]

That was my experience with the 5x7 B&W King tank. Tape makes a lot of sense, instead of tape I just did not invert the tank, the spinner makes stationary processing easy and results in no leakage. The few times I did invert it I used a few sheets of paper towel over the top. Because of the size of 5x7 film and the volume of fluid I would avoid inversion as it might dislodge the sheets of film in the reel.

I agree with Bob here. I just don't invert. Of course I develop only with PMK Pyro, so I love a nice gentle couple spins every 15 seconds versus inversions. I've had zero issues and absolutely predictable results.

[bw-king]

Liu (bw-king) - Just placed my order for a 4x5 tank. Looking forward to seeing how it performs.

Dear Alan
I have been in the January 17, the 4 x5 developing tank delivery China post.If all goes well, you can be in ten days or so can receive B&W KING.
Under the bright light, to use scrap film, for installation and removal of practice several times.It should be easy to control.
I hope you will like it.More hope you experience with feedback.
thank you

[Alan9940]

Just received my B&W King 4x5 tank. It was packed well for shipment and the unit itself seems of high quality. I practiced loading a couple sheets of film into the reel, in the dark, and it loads easily. I found that if you hold the film on each edge as you feed it into the reel it goes smoother than pushing from the short side with one hand. I've never developed LF film using any kind of spiral rotation method so I'm very interested to see if I have any development issues. Based on various posts throughout this thread, I'm not expecting any problems.

[pierre506]

Just received my B&W King 4x5 tank. It was packed well for shipment and the unit itself seems of high quality. I practiced loading a couple sheets of film into the reel, in the dark, and it loads easily. I found that if you hold the film on each edge as you feed it into the reel it goes smoother than pushing from the short side with one hand. I've never developed LF film using any kind of spiral rotation method so I'm very interested to see if I have any development issues. Based on various posts throughout this thread, I'm not expecting any problems.
Good news and hoping to see the developing results soon~

[Alan9940]

Hello All,

Just ran my first few sheets using the B&W King 4x5 tank...to speak honestly, I'm not very encouraged!

The film was FP4+ exposed at EI100 developed in Clayton F76+ at 68F 1:9 dilution. I developed for 5 1/2 mins (per Clayton and MDC recommendations) and used spiral agitation for the first 20 secs, followed by 5 secs every 30 secs thereafter. All "spin cycles" were done turning the lid for x secs in a clockwise direction followed by counter-clockwise for x secs; for example, on the 5 sec cycle I spun it about 2.5 secs one direction, then 2.5 secs the other.

The attached is a Zone VI exposure of a white card (mount board) in sunlight under a cloudless sky. I realize this is somewhat of an extreme stress test of any developing system, but looking at the attached you'll see quite uneven development. I've performed this same test over the years with differing development systems so I know what to look for and what to expect. In addition to the overall uneven density, you should see increased density running along the middle of the negative which, to my mind, shows increased agitation around the central spiral channels leading to increased development in this area. Not good!

Any ideas? Maybe I was spinning the reel too aggressively? I'm really hoping current users of this tank and/or BW King can provide some insight.

Thank you.

145785

[Sal Santamaura]

That's about what I expected the results to look like.


...Any ideas?...Yes, obtain a Jobo 3006 drum and, if you can't also pick up a processor, spin it by hand on a roller base. In four decades of trying various approaches to processing 4x5 sheet film at home, that's the only method I've found which provides extremely even results.

[Alan9940]

That's about what I expected the results to look like.

Yes, obtain a Jobo 3006 drum and, if you can't also pick up a processor, spin it by hand on a roller base. In four decades of trying various approaches to processing 4x5 sheet film at home, that's the only method I've found which provides extremely even results.

Hello Sal,

Yep, already own a CPP-2 and a 3006 drum. Why did I buy the B&W King tank? I was hoping it would enable me to pursue some optional development techniques such a minimal and/or semi-stand agitation using Pyrocat-HD. I didn't start there because I wanted to see what "normal development" using familiar developers and processes (other than the "spin agitation"...never done that before) would yield.

Thanks!

[Sal Santamaura]

...Why did I buy the B&W King tank? I was hoping it would enable me to pursue some optional development techniques such a minimal and/or semi-stand agitation using Pyrocat-HD...I think if you search here you'll find threads discussing use of Jobo Expert drums for those techniques with that developer.

[John Layton]

Alan - a couple of questions: Did you pre-soak prior to development? Have you tried the tank with Pyrocat?

Perhaps the 5.5 min was a bit short for this tank...especially if with no presoak?

Would a (gentle) dip/dunk/spin scenario work better...especially in combo with a presoak and longer development time?

Just thinking out loud. This tank seems too compelling in terms of the potentially great logistics/economy/control it could offer to simply dismiss out of hand based on your specific test.

[Alan9940]

Alan - a couple of questions: Did you pre-soak prior to development? Have you tried the tank with Pyrocat?

Perhaps the 5.5 min was a bit short for this tank...especially if with no presoak?

Would a (gentle) dip/dunk/spin scenario work better...especially in combo with a presoak and longer development time?

Just thinking out loud. This tank seems too compelling in terms of the potentially great logistics/economy/control it could offer to simply dismiss out of hand based on your specific test.

Hello John,

2 min pre-soak; same as I've done for many, many years of tank development for 35mm & 120. Actually, Pyrocat-HD is going to be my next test run. But, I didn't buy this tank with the thought that I'd be restricted to certain processes. I bought it with the idea that it would allow me to complete various development scenarios that I literally can't do with my Jobo. I agree that it's a very compelling idea, but if actual results don't hold up then it's basically a tin can. :) Your suggested dip/dunk/spin scenario might work better, but I want this to be a daylight system. If I'm going to have to process in the darkroom, I may as well use other techniques.

Thanks for the thoughts!

[bw-king]

Dear Alan
See you try B&W KING's sample, I talk about my analysis.
Any kind of developing equipment has its own operating method, B&W KING is the same, you need an understanding of the process.
I think that you have encountered the problem of film development, is because of the rotation method of the problem, a slight adjustment can be resolved.
In accordance with the data you provide, you are developing a continuous rotating tank core. The rotating time of the tank is too long or intense, may be the cause of the problem.

Developing and stirring method of B&W KING:
1, the rotation of the core to take a slow, interval rotation method, to avoid rapid, continuous rotation.
2, the operator can also take the traditional flip, shake and a short period of time of the tank cross rolling development method.
3, black and white film development standard rotation mode time:
Turn two circles (below) /10 seconds, interval 50 seconds (above).

Sorry more than rotating way important content, is missing in the English instruction manual.I am very sorry.I will complement as soon as possible to modify the instruction content.

This picture below 5 x7 gradations of color black and white film, is I use this way of mixing enhancement effect.Is able to meet the requirements of our photography from the intuitive.
My analysis, wants to discuss.
Thank you for your support for B&W KING.
I couldn't speak English, that is computer translation, there is likely to be wrong, please forgive me
Your friend
liu junjie

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[Alan9940]

Hello All,

Well...sorry to report that my second run using the B&W King 4x5 tank is not noticeably better than the first. See attached. Following Liu's suggestions and any other info I could find regarding using this tank, I performed slow rotations for 10 secs out of every minute. First rotation cycle was clockwise, second counter-clockwise, third back clockwise, etc. I will try inversion agitation next, but I'm not hopeful. I will also do a minimal agitation run with Pyrocat-HD which is primarily the reason I bought this tank.

Overall, though, I cannot express how disappointed I am. I had really high hopes and really, really wanted it to work out, but... Too bad there isn't a return policy.

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[bw-king]

Dear Alan
I am a B&W KING designer.But I first is the user of this product, I am also a photographer.
I am serious analysis before and after you posted on the two film.I think, in the middle of the second rotation trace is much better than the first one.But the rotate speed and time is long, need to reduce the time of the rotation and intensity.
The best turn turns to reduce 1/2.
Also can try turning upside down developing tank (once per minute), there is no the trace of turbulence in the middle.
Because each person's technique is different, according to my advice, you will flush out film is satisfactory to you.
In addition, don't know your overall flushing time, uneven film as a whole, the right reason.
Each product has its own operation method, need a master process, B&W KING and so on.I in use, also have failure process, but the slow rotation, only 10 seconds per minute while on a business trip (no more than twice), still 50 seconds.Not seen after the failure of the uneven development.
B&W KING is designed for photographers use, therefore, responsible for the quality of the product, to each photographer to teach the correct method of use, is my promise.
Is our photographer counterparts, but also has met the friends, I value every user's opinion, is willing to further discussion.
Your friend
liu junjie

[AAP]

Hello All,

Well...sorry to report that my second run using the B&W King 4x5 tank is not noticeably better than the first. See attached. Following Liu's suggestions and any other info I could find regarding using this tank, I performed slow rotations for 10 secs out of every minute. First rotation cycle was clockwise, second counter-clockwise, third back clockwise, etc. I will try inversion agitation next, but I'm not hopeful. I will also do a minimal agitation run with Pyrocat-HD which is primarily the reason I bought this tank.

Overall, though, I cannot express how disappointed I am. I had really high hopes and really, really wanted it to work out, but... Too bad there isn't a return policy.

145894

I'll chime in as I've reported back favorably. Now, I'm developing 5x7 and using the exact same approach I use in Paterson tanks with 35, 120 and 4x5. As for film I'm shooting both FP4 and Ortho Litho (Don't ask!). I'm developing with PMK Pyro. As for rotations, I am following my every 15 seconds regime. Rotation speed I've worked to keep moderate/slow and very even. I've not run any formal tests but per my eyes, my negs are perfect; well as perfect as they can be given my exposures. What I've loved is that I've not had to alter my fundamental process at all and I'm achieving equally satisfactory results. Again, this is per my eyes and aims. The only nuances I've noted already are the fluid volume differences from the Paterson and the need to make sure the negs are locked in behind the vertical bars. Other than these I've found this tank works extremely well with my 5x7 processing. No issues.

[scheinfluger_77]

Suggestion:

Let's see the card you are photographing. The mottling is not identical but there is the same vertical strip in the center of the negatives.

[Alan9940]

Yay...success!!

I had always planned to do a test run with a pyro developer and, per AAP's post, I had some WD2D+ around which has similar agitation cycles as PMK. However, I added a bit of a wrinkle. ;) Per the WD2D+ instructions, agitate for the first 30 secs, followed by 15 secs agitation each 30 sec interval thereafter. For each agitation cycle following the first, I rotated the lid slowly and as smoothly as I could for about 12 secs, then I tipped the tank N/S/E/W and gave it a bit of a twist for the last 3 secs. The negs are hanging to dry, but my initial review of the Zone VI exposure reveals a quite smooth and even gray tone across the entire negative. If I stare, I think I can detect a very slight increase in density as a stripe the length of the middle (perhaps increased agitation around the middle spirals?), but it's so minimal that I doubt it would be any issue when printing a normal neg.

I am VERY encouraged at this point! Thank you all for listening and all suggestions made. Since I bought the B&W King 4x5 tank specifically for various pyro development scenarios, I am quite pleased with these results today.

scheinfluger_77: The card I use (actually a piece of mattboard) is very clean with no marks anywhere to be found. I suspect what we're seeing with the strip in the center of the neg is increased agitation around the central spirals of the reel. Following today's results, I believe I can eliminate that once I really nail the agitation routine.

One remaining question: Occasionally, when rotating the lid it seems to get "stuck" and becomes difficult to turn...anybody else have this issue? What was the resolution, if any.

Thank you.

[AAP]

Yay...success!!

I had always planned to do a test run with a pyro developer and, per AAP's post, I had some WD2D+ around which has similar agitation cycles as PMK. However, I added a bit of a wrinkle. ;) Per the WD2D+ instructions, agitate for the first 30 secs, followed by 15 secs agitation each 30 sec interval thereafter. For each agitation cycle following the first, I rotated the lid slowly and as smoothly as I could for about 12 secs, then I tipped the tank N/S/E/W and gave it a bit of a twist for the last 3 secs. The negs are hanging to dry, but my initial review of the Zone VI exposure reveals a quite smooth and even gray tone across the entire negative. If I stare, I think I can detect a very slight increase in density as a stripe the length of the middle (perhaps increased agitation around the middle spirals?), but it's so minimal that I doubt it would be any issue when printing a normal neg.

I am VERY encouraged at this point! Thank you all for listening and all suggestions made. Since I bought the B&W King 4x5 tank specifically for various pyro development scenarios, I am quite pleased with these results today.

scheinfluger_77: The card I use (actually a piece of mattboard) is very clean with no marks anywhere to be found. I suspect what we're seeing with the strip in the center of the neg is increased agitation around the central spirals of the reel. Following today's results, I believe I can eliminate that once I really nail the agitation routine.

One remaining question: Occasionally, when rotating the lid it seems to get "stuck" and becomes difficult to turn...anybody else have this issue? What was the resolution, if any.

Thank you.



Yep! I just go in the opposite direction a couple times. I've just assumed it due to mechanical binding which over time I'd expect to round off, smooth out.

[R.K]

Dear AAP, the cap when rotated may get stuck occasionally in the gap between the tank lid and the little intermediate tube-washer what stays under it. So when you rotating the cap, don't push on it with your hands. In opposite hold cap in you hands and let it likely fly above that tube-washer and nothing will stuck any more.

[bw-king]

Dear photographer friend
Spring Festival in China, I send you a good blessing.
Thank you for the attention and support of B&W KING.
Your friends
Liu Junjie

[bw-king]

I hope to communicate more use B&W KING photographer, use their experience.

[bw-man]

I use the LUCKY 5 x7 film portrait, use B&W KING 5 x7 developing tank, d - 23 flushing for 20 minutes.
Developing mixing methods: 3 minutes between developing tank a upside down
Fixing mixing methods: 3 minutes between 2 turns
This experience, can share with all of the photographers.
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153536

[Michael Clark]

Nice Portraits , the little girl is cute.

[Alan9940]

Yes, nice portraits and clean, even develop looking negatives.

For those of us who own a B&W King tank (I have 4x5), I think it would be helpful if you passed along any more recent information regarding "best practices" when using your tank. For example, I have never had any success with twisting the reel; best success I've had is inversion agitation. But, even with inversion I wouldn't call the negatives perfectly even in development.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I have what I think is a King. It does 18 - 24 4x5 sheets at a time, roller agitation. I'm too chicken to use it.

[Alan9940]

I have what I think is a King. It does 18 - 24 4x5 sheets at a time, roller agitation. I'm too chicken to use it.

The B&W King 4x5 tank holds 10 sheets of film. Not sure what you mean by "roller agitation", but the King tank has small rollers on the bottom of the film reel that allow the user to twist/twirl the reels using the cap of the tank.

[Bob Salomon]

I have what I think is a King. It does 18 - 24 4x5 sheets at a time, roller agitation. I'm too chicken to use it.

Are you talking about the King Concept processor that was made in the USA and is electrically operated or the Chinese manually operated tank that the OP is asking about?

[Shula]

For those of us who own a B&W King tank (I have 4x5), I think it would be helpful if you passed along any more recent information regarding "best practices" when using your tank. For example, I have never had any success with twisting the reel; best success I've had is inversion agitation. But, even with inversion I wouldn't call the negatives perfectly even in development.

I'm new to LF. Received my Wista SP a couple days ago. Based on the previous messages in this thread, I was about to to order the 4x5 BW King. However, I am now reluctant to do so. I don't have frequent enough access to a dark room to "waste" it processing film, so need something like the BW King to process the film in daylight. I would like to second Alan's request for "best practices."

Thanks

[Alan9940]

I'm new to LF. Received my Wista SP a couple days ago. Based on the previous messages in this thread, I was about to to order the 4x5 BW King. However, I am now reluctant to do so. I don't have frequent enough access to a dark room to "waste" it processing film, so need something like the BW King to process the film in daylight. I would like to second Alan's request for "best practices."

Thanks

IMHO, I wouldn't recommend the B&W King tank to a new user of LF. Don't get me wrong it's a fine tank, but only years of experience with various processing methods for LF film will enable you to ferret out proper technique for the B&W King tank. Perhaps if there was more universally understandable support or more users of the King tank, my opinions would be different. But, it is what it is...

If you don't have access to a darkroom or any room that would serve the purpose, you may want to look at the new SP-445 tank. It's only now beginning to ship to Kickstarter supporters, but should be generally available soon. It will enable you to process up to 4 sheets of 4x5 in daylight. No idea, yet, of its capability to provide even development, but such information should be readily available soon.

Good luck!

[Shula]

IMHO, I wouldn't recommend the B&W King tank to a new user of LF.

If you don't have access to a darkroom or any room that would serve the purpose, you may want to look at the new SP-445 tank. . . No idea, yet, of its capability to provide even development, but such information should be readily available soon.

Good luck!

I don't understand why you suggest the new sp-445 over the BW King since you write that you don't know whether the sp-445 will provide even development.

By the way, although I am new to LF, I have many years developing medium format film. In fact, that's why I was attracted to the BW King since it appears to be similar to the reels and tanks I use for my 120 film.

[Alan9940]

I don't understand why you suggest the new sp-445 over the BW King since you write that you don't know whether the sp-445 will provide even development.

By the way, although I am new to LF, I have many years developing medium format film. In fact, that's why I was attracted to the BW King since it appears to be similar to the reels and tanks I use for my 120 film.

I was simply suggesting the SP-445 tank as an alternative to the B&W King. The developer of SP-445 is a photographer and has posted various trial development runs that reveal even development, but I never believe "facts" until I see it for myself. I was a Kickstarter backer on this project so I've got one on the way; then, we'll see. Personally, I haven't had much luck with the B&W King tank. But, it does hold 10 sheets of film vs 4 for the SP-445. As always, YMMV.

[bw-man]

... ...
By the way, although I am new to LF, I have many years developing medium format film. In fact, that's why I was attracted to the BW King since it appears to be similar to the reels and tanks I use for my 120 film.
Shula
Every developing tank has its special operation method.Like to drive the British and American cars, the operation will be different, but the basic principle, by the way, will soon be able to master.B&W KING is the same situation.Its installation film and remove the film has its own way, but is very simple, to grasp easily.You are a darkroom experience old photographer, without any problems.
Few people, no photography foundation, one step into the ranks of large format photography.Which it will be very tired.Because basic knowledge need to learn too much,......

[David Aimone]

An update on the use of my 5x7 tank. It seems to function well, but I have to figure out an alternative for my Pyrocat-MC constant rotation routine:

1. I'm finding some markings/patterns from top to bottom in the middle of the film, about where the middle supporting bar is. This wasn't as pronounced when I used intermittent agitation, but I like the results better with constant agitation.

2. The tank is rotating fine enough, but I think I'm getting repetitive motion soreness using it. The little cap and ring to me are not useable, so I wear gloves and turn the strip of metal in the fill port.

Suggestions?

Also, a suggestion for something to attach to that metal in the fill port to make rotation easier on the hand/wrist? Thought of trying a vise-grip but looking for a more elegant solution.

[Alan9940]

An update on the use of my 5x7 tank. It seems to function well, but I have to figure out an alternative for my Pyrocat-MC constant rotation routine:

1. I'm finding some markings/patterns from top to bottom in the middle of the film, about where the middle supporting bar is. This wasn't as pronounced when I used intermittent agitation, but I like the results better with constant agitation.


I'm assuming by your comment below that your constant agitation routine is to spin the reel? How fast/slow are you spinning it? I finally settled on inversion agitation with this tank, but back when I was first experimenting with spinning the reel I found I was spinning too fast. Slowing the rotation and moving as smoothly as possible (IMO not easy with the cap) helped minimize the marks you describe, but I was never able to completely eliminate them. Hence the switch to inversion agitation, though that method also generates very slight higher density around the center bars.



2. The tank is rotating fine enough, but I think I'm getting repetitive motion soreness using it. The little cap and ring to me are not useable, so I wear gloves and turn the strip of metal in the fill port.


Yep, I did the same thing because I found using the cap too "jerky." Personally, I really like your idea of a small vise-grip...I may try that! As I was typing this I thought... I wonder if the spinning rod from a Paterson System 4 tank would work; might have to modify slightly to fit over the metal tab in the B&W tank.

If you arrive at something that works that provides perfectly even development, I'd be most interested to hear of your solution.

Good luck!

[Megapixel]

My suggestion (which I have not yet tried) is make a larger "knob" out of PVC plumbing pipe. The PVC plastic is relatively easy to saw and you can use PVC cement to glue various pieces together. Use PVC pipe small enough to just fit inside the top hole and cut two slotted notches in one end that fit onto the baffle in the hole (see drawing #1, lower half). This might be all you need to make.

A more complex knob could use seveal short lengths of larger diameter PVC pipe to increase the diameter of the upper tube (see drawing #1, upper half). You could then also put a PVC reduction diameter fitting to create a cone shaped cover larger in diameter than the hole (see drawing #2). The cone would rest on the tank top, helping to block light and preventing pushing down on the baffle when you turn the knob.

Jim

An update on the use of my 5x7 tank. It seems to function well, but I have to figure out an alternative for my Pyrocat-MC constant rotation routine:

<snip>

2. The tank is rotating fine enough, but I think I'm getting repetitive motion soreness using it. The little cap and ring to me are not useable, so I wear gloves and turn the strip of metal in the fill port.

Suggestions?

Also, a suggestion for something to attach to that metal in the fill port to make rotation easier on the hand/wrist? Thought of trying a vise-grip but looking for a more elegant solution.

[David Aimone]

The vise grip idea is attractive to me because it really gives you leverage and the ability to turn it slowly but smoothly with little effort. I'm going to go out and buy a small one and try it.

The idea with the slotted pvc is also good, but I'd want to put a slot on both ends and some kind of cross bar across the top for additional leverage and control. But I'm wondering if it would not hold well, as would obviously not be a problem with vise grips.

[bw-man]

I'm assuming by your comment below that your constant agitation routine is to spin the reel? How fast/slow are you spinning it? I finally settled on inversion agitation with this tank, but back when I was first experimenting with spinning the reel I found I was spinning too fast. Slowing the rotation and moving as smoothly as possible (IMO not easy with the cap) helped minimize the marks you describe, but I was never able to completely eliminate them. Hence the switch to inversion agitation, though that method also generates very slight higher density around the center bars.
If you arrive at something that works that provides perfectly even development, I'd be most interested to hear of your solution.
Good luck!

I also use B&W KING.We use communication experience.
1, the film in the middle of the uneven development of stripes, also has appeared in my operation.The main reason is that the rotation speed.When I operate, Slowly turned the tank (it 's rotation feature) one turns every one minute. Problem solved.The film image is uniform.
2, upside down and shake the traditional development method applies B&W KING.Once every 2 minutes upside down.The effect is very good
B&W KING is a manual operation, and the enhancement operation time is different also, it is difficult to give a fixed quantitative method.We can only through the test, find out suitable operation method.
This 5 x7 film, is I developed 13 minutes, rotating once every 2 minutes.
Girl's 5 x7 film, enhancement of 17 minutes, once every 3 minutes upside down.
I couldn't speak English, that is computer translation, there is likely to be wrong, please forgive me

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154259

[bw-man]

Yep, I did the same thing because I found using the cap too "jerky." Personally, I really like your idea of a small vise-grip...I may try that! As I was typing this I thought... I wonder if the spinning rod from a Paterson System 4 tank would work; might have to modify slightly to fit over the metal tab in the B&W tank.


B&W KING of developing tank lid can be adjusted.If some rotation problem (loose or card), simply adjust the tank two screws.
Reference images.

154261

[Jockos]

The 25th is pay day for most people in Sweden - me included - which led me to rush onto eBay on my morning break to spend some of those hard earned :-

To my utter despair, the BW-King store was EMPTY!!!

Not a single tank in sight.

What cruel gods govern this world, and why do they hate me??

[cherdlu]

does the 5x7 tank also work for 4x5? or do i need to buy separate tanks? (ouch)

[David Aimone]

does the 5x7 tank also work for 4x5? or do i need to buy separate tanks? (ouch)

Yes, it would work for 4x5" sheets, but you will use a LOT of developer, ~1300ml or more for 6 sheets of 4x5. If I have four or five sheets of 5x7, I'll often fill the empty slots with 4x5".

[David Aimone]

BW-Man, question: I have bee using the 5x7 tank with great results after some trial and error, but I am having one small issue. The back of the sheets are not washing perfectly where the supporting metal band runs down the center, resulting in a faint dark streak down the middle of the negative. Otherwise, development is very good and quite even on the emulsion side.

What do you suggest to eliminate this streak? For reference, I'm using mostly Pyrocat-MC (in glycol) with Arista EDU400 (Fomapan) and pre-washing in the tank.

[Alan9940]

David,

I had that faint dark streak in my 4x5 negs and contributed it to my agitation technique. I use inversion agitation with my BW King 4x5 tank and, once I settled on a very gentle twist along with a gentle inversion the streak disappeared. I, too, use Pyrocat developers. Hope this helps.

[David Aimone]

I use the built in rotation. It's too leaky for inversion from my experience. Maybe I should just try inversion when prewashing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alan9940]

I use the built in rotation. It's too leaky for inversion from my experience. Maybe I should just try inversion when prewashing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep, I started with using rotation, but found that I got uneven development; tried rotating slower/faster, but nothing worked for me. I tape the seam all around with electrical tape...never noticed any leaking. And, with pyro developers you'd notice a leak! ;) That said, however, I don't have any experience with the 5x7 tank.

[David Aimone]

Do you tape around the top as well each time you fill/empty?


Yep, I started with using rotation, but found that I got uneven development; tried rotating slower/faster, but nothing worked for me. I tape the seam all around with electrical tape...never noticed any leaking. And, with pyro developers you'd notice a leak! ;) That said, however, I don't have any experience with the 5x7 tank.

[Alan9940]

Do you tape around the top as well each time you fill/empty?

No, and I've not noticed any leaking from the lid. As these tanks are rather large and heavy when filled I place my palm on the lid to act as a rotation point when I invert. Therefore, I have one hand gripping the bottom and the palm of my other hand "holding" the top/lid. Then, I invert and give a little twist; I do this one direction then the other each agitation cycle. Once you get used to doing this sequence in a gentle way, the dark streak across the middle of the neg will become a non-issue. It will take a bit of practice, though.

Good luck!

[David Aimone]

Interesting, if the faint dark streaks are on the non-emulsion side of the film (since that's where the offending bar is), wouldn't a good pre-wash using your method be sufficient for eliminating those marks (not helping uneven development)? I do notice some blueish anti-halation evidence still on the negatives (mostly along the edges and the in the water dripping when hung) after going through the development with the tank due to the contact that the negative has with the holder. I don't get that from my 4x5 JOBO reels...


No, and I've not noticed any leaking from the lid. As these tanks are rather large and heavy when filled I place my palm on the lid to act as a rotation point when I invert. Therefore, I have one hand gripping the bottom and the palm of my other hand "holding" the top/lid. Then, I invert and give a little twist; I do this one direction then the other each agitation cycle. Once you get used to doing this sequence in a gentle way, the dark streak across the middle of the neg will become a non-issue. It will take a bit of practice, though.

Good luck!

[Alan9940]

David,

I do use a pre-wash for all films (including Ilford, though they don't recommend it) regardless of processing style--tanks or Jobo. Back when I had the 'streak issue' with the B&W tank, it was a single thin streak of what looked like more density on the neg along where the bar is. No amount of pre-wash, hypo clear, or final wash would remove it. I know it sounds odd to talk about increased density when the bar is on the base side of the negative, but the solution was to modify my agitation technique; nothing changed in my processing steps. To my mind, if it was leftover anti-halation coating it should have come off with the hypo clear and/or final wash, right?

[bw-man]

BW-Man, question: I have bee using the 5x7 tank with great results after some trial and error, but I am having one small issue. The back of the sheets are not washing perfectly where the supporting metal band runs down the center, resulting in a faint dark streak down the middle of the negative. Otherwise, development is very good and quite even on the emulsion side.

What do you suggest to eliminate this streak? For reference, I'm using mostly Pyrocat-MC (in glycol) with Arista EDU400 (Fomapan) and pre-washing in the tank.

Dear David Aimone
Your question, I have recently took 5x7, using Chinese lucky film, B&W KING 5 x7 developing tank flushing.
1, D-23 developer, 20 minutes, 2 turns, suspended for 2 minutes, upside down, suspended for 3 minutes, upside down, suspend 3 minutes.....(End).
2, F-5 stop bath , 10 minutes, upside down again.
I the above operation, film washing did not appear uneven, also did not appear the problem you encountered.
We are manual operation, the development of the film have their own habits and methods.Will encounter all sorts of problems, also is very normal.Need us to question myself to grope for, this also is the charm of black and white photography.
I can't speak English very well, this is the computer translation, I do not know whether accurate.
Response time is a bit late, please forgive me.
Thank you all for photographers to B&W KING's trust and support!

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[bw-man]

Developed nicely on the second batch, but the blackened metal light damper at the top of mine is rusting a bit after two uses as well. That's a bit worrisome...

A tidbit: Stainless steel can rust if it is put in contact with regular steel at some point, and under some other conditions:
http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/Rust.pdf
Extrapolating from this, it would seem, for instance, that cleaning your SS equipment with steel wool would the the worst of bad ideas.

Hello,Photographer friend
Recently, B&W KING developing tank roof sandwich parts process change, cancel the QPQ (Quench, Polish, Quench) double black process, adopts the single Teflon coating process (Polytetrafluoroetylene), improve the corrosion resistance of developing tank black dark layer, to avoid the QPQ problem with traces of the solution to produce chemical reaction.
This problem is solved thoroughly, and the quality and performance of B&W KING stainless steel developer can be improved again.
For a friend who has purchased a B&W KING developer, I will contact the email.
There is the QPQ problem of interlayer, to Chinese domestic friends, mail replacement parts. Friends outside China, mail Teflon complete development tank.(freight only).
Ensure that each user can safely use; Live up to everyone's expectations of B&W KING.
I can't speak English, this is computer translation. Probably not accurate, please understand.

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[Rael]

I used mine for the first time last weekend, and I also noticed the slight rusting when I broke it out this week. I'm not sure from the translation if a replacement part is available for purchase or warranty exchange or something else?

[Alan9940]

I've used mine for about a year and have no rust in the top. But, I use a hair dryer to thoroughly dry the inside top after each use. I, too, cannot tell from the PM received if we prior buyers are supposed to get the new part. Hopefully, B&W King will clarify.

[David Aimone]

I guess we'll find out at some point. My tank is useable, and I have started rotating and inverting by sealing it with electrical tape during developing through fixing... More even development alternating rotation and inversion.

[bw-man]

I've used mine for about a year and have no rust in the top. But, I use a hair dryer to thoroughly dry the inside top after each use. I, too, cannot tell from the PM received if we prior buyers are supposed to get the new part. Hopefully, B&W King will clarify.


I used mine for the first time last weekend, and I also noticed the slight rusting when I broke it out this week. I'm not sure from the translation if a replacement part is available for purchase or warranty exchange or something else?

Dear photographer friend
The update of B&W KING developing tank Teflon parts has recently begun.
For photographers who have QPQ problems, please contact the email box: manager@bw-king.com, tell yourself the number of using the developing tank (bottom laser number), purchase date, mailing address, recipient, telephone.1. Update the parts for the sandwich, wafer and dial 3 QPQ.The replaced QPQ parts do not need to be mailed to China.
2. The update fee for Teflon parts is a symbolic $1.You only need to bear the cost of transportation.A complete stainless steel developer can be obtained, (not including film mounting rack).
3. The photographer of B&W KING through eBay network can directly transfer the transportation cost of the country to the country through PayPal.
I hope that every photographer friend who USES B&W KING will use this product update to use a more perfect developer.Please understand QPQ problem and processing method.

I can't speak English, this is the computer translation, may have wrong, please understand.

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[Rael]

I guess we'll find out at some point. My tank is useable, and I have started rotating and inverting by sealing it with electrical tape during developing through fixing... More even development alternating rotation and inversion.

Unrelated question -- when you load your film, do you push it beyond the bar? I didn't, and rotating it the wrong way caused the film to pull itself partway out. Pushing it beyond the bar keeps it in place, but it's not easy to pull out of there after you develop....

[David Aimone]

You do have to push it in beyond the bar, I've found. If not, it may slip out. Removing it isn't as hard as it seems. I wet my hands with the photo-flo type solution that the film went through, with the film opening slot facing me horizontally gently use my thumbs to press down on the leading edge of the film (should be non-emulsion side if loaded correctly) and nudge forward past the bar. Not too hard with a few tries and haven't damaged any film yet.


Unrelated question -- when you load your film, do you push it beyond the bar? I didn't, and rotating it the wrong way caused the film to pull itself partway out. Pushing it beyond the bar keeps it in place, but it's not easy to pull out of there after you develop....

[Alan9940]

I release mine similar to David. I hold the reel with one hand on each end with the slot facing horizontally away from me. Then, I use both thumbs to gently push down on the edge of the film and slowly nudge it out. It does take patience because just the smallest edge of the film will cause it to hang. Once it has cleared the bar, I pull the film slowly out. I'm almost always wearing nitrile gloves when doing this because I develop with pyro film developers. Never damaged a single sheet of film, yet.

[David Aimone]

A personal update on using my 5x7 B&W King tank. I'm now getting perfect development with the following modification. After loading the tank, I use electrical tape to seal the top onto the bottom of the tank. When agitating, I alternate between internal rotation and inverting the tank by holding the little cap tightly on top. The electrical tape prevents leakage around the tank.

I was getting a faint vertical streak on my negatives where the non-emulsion side rested against the metal bar in the middle of the negative. The combination of rotation and inversion seems to have solved this issue and produces nice and evenly developed negatives. Since others have not had this problem, I am assuming it was due to either the film or the developer I'm using, or that the fixer wasn't clearing completely. I don't know, but this seems to have solved the problem nicely.

:)

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4390/36565352912_ac546a9097_b.jpg

[Alan9940]

David,

Thanks for the tip regarding inversion/rotation agitation. I, too, have always used electrical tape around the tank can and lid because I've only done inversion agitation with the B&W King tank. However, I do occasionally get a single very faint vertical line on the neg along where the center bar sits. I will definitely try your technique next time!

[roboticspro]

For anyone using these tanks having rotation problems (hanging-up when you change from CW to CCW), check to see if the bottom rollers on the reels are all touching evenly on a smooth surface. I needed to bend the support arms for the rollers very slightly (up or down) to prevent the reel from "rocking" to one side. Now both of the sets I purchased turn very smoothly. The first batch of twenty negatives (4x5) are as perfect, from a development point, as I can see. I am very pleased with this product and Liu's correspondence with me on some questions I had for him.

[travelight]

Hi David,

I've just started using a B&W King 5x7 tank, and I'm getting very uneven development. I'm using xTol 1:1 with Tri-x 320, which gives me a 9 minute development time (from Kodak's data sheet). Could you tell me how long a development time are you using, and if you don't mind the frequency of rotations and inversions. Also are you doing any additional agitation for the first minute?

I'm hoping that better technique will give me better results, the labs here in Melbourne charge $15 a sheet - which makes processing my own very attractive - so long as I can get decent results.

Thanks, David


A personal update on using my 5x7 B&W King tank. I'm now getting perfect development with the following modification. After loading the tank, I use electrical tape to seal the top onto the bottom of the tank. When agitating, I alternate between internal rotation and inverting the tank by holding the little cap tightly on top. The electrical tape prevents leakage around the tank.

I was getting a faint vertical streak on my negatives where the non-emulsion side rested against the metal bar in the middle of the negative. The combination of rotation and inversion seems to have solved this issue and produces nice and evenly developed negatives. Since others have not had this problem, I am assuming it was due to either the film or the developer I'm using, or that the fixer wasn't clearing completely. I don't know, but this seems to have solved the problem nicely.

:)

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4390/36565352912_ac546a9097_b.jpg

[David Aimone]

I'm using Pyrocat MC 1+2+100 on this Arista (Fomapan) 400 for about 14 minutes (11 minutes for Arista 100). Agitate full first minute, but fairly gentle, slow inversions to start then setting it down and rotations. Then 10 seconds every minute, gentle inversions every 2 seconds or so for one cycle, rotations the next cycle, back and forth. It might be overkill to alternate inversions and rotations but it seems to work better for me than either of the two alone. And with Pyrocat, the inversions and rotations seem to like gentle and not too fast, so a cycle about every two seconds per inversion or rotation. The image of mine posted was with this newest approach.

Hope that helps. 4x5 I do with these films continuous in a Jobo on a motor base-- 11 and 8:30 for 400 and 100 ISO.


Hi David,

I've just started using a B&W King 5x7 tank, and I'm getting very uneven development. I'm using xTol 1:1 with Tri-x 320, which gives me a 9 minute development time (from Kodak's data sheet). Could you tell me how long a development time are you using, and if you don't mind the frequency of rotations and inversions. Also are you doing any additional agitation for the first minute?

I'm hoping that better technique will give me better results, the labs here in Melbourne charge $15 a sheet - which makes processing my own very attractive - so long as I can get decent results.

Thanks, David

[MichaelPRyan]

I am sadly seeing rust developing in places on mine. I didn't start using it until after the 1st of this year. Not a tremendous amount of use. I'm bummed as it is a really well built item. Extremely well made. I have emailed the owner and am awaiting his response. I have two other places rusting as well but cant seem to post more than one photo.

[MichaelPRyan]

I just received a response from the BW Man and he will make this right. I admire his honesty. He will send me a new reel. He said it was not cleaned of the casting residue properly and this causes rust. It is all stainless steel its just the residue thats making the rust. I still believe in this product big time. It is really built like a tank.

[David Aimone]

Great! I've not had that problem, and mine's had quite a bit of use, so hopefully your replacement will do the trick!

[duff photographer]

I am sadly seeing rust developing in places on mine. I didn't start using it until after the 1st of this year. Not a tremendous amount of use. I'm bummed as it is a really well built item. Extremely well made. I have emailed the owner and am awaiting his response. I have two other places rusting as well but cant seem to post more than one photo.


I just received a response from the BW Man and he will make this right. I admire his honesty. He will send me a new reel. He said it was not cleaned of the casting residue properly and this causes rust. It is all stainless steel its just the residue thats making the rust. I still believe in this product big time. It is really built like a tank.

If the problem happens again then a short soak in a warm solution of citric acid will get rid of the rust with little to no effect on the reel itself (granules can be obtained from the usual places and will also descale your kettle and is more environmentally friendly, and cheaper, than the usual descalers).

[bw-man]

I am sadly seeing rust developing in places on mine. I didn't start using it until after the 1st of this year. Not a tremendous amount of use. I'm bummed as it is a really well built item. Extremely well made. I have emailed the owner and am awaiting his response. I have two other places rusting as well but cant seem to post more than one photo.
Dear MichaelPRyan
I received your letter and saw your picture.Apologize for the problem with B&W KING.
1. Please believe that all the parts of B&W KING are made of 304 stainless steel. My contract to the manufacturer is clear.
2. The upper and lower parts of the film mounting rack can only be used for precision casting because of the complex shape.It is very likely that the rust marks are caused by the insufficient cleaning of the casting residue.
3. In the processing of B&W KING, the welding and casting process will produce rust marks.This is normal.In the end, it will be treated with strong acid to ensure the brightness of stainless steel products.
4. The rust mark shown in your photo should be the reason for the final acid washing not in place.
Because the whole B&W KING product is supervised or handled by myself, I will tell you the whole process, please don't worry too much.
Solution:
1. Please use a high concentration of acetic acid (fixative liquid raw material) or stainless steel passivation cleaning solution to soak, the rust will soon disappear.This is my way of dealing with this problem.
2.Please tell me the address of your order B&W KING on ebay. I will send you a new product as soon as possible.Solve your problem thoroughly.
I'm a retired photographer. B&W KING is my own product. It took eight years to develop the product. Each B&W KING process is done by myself.I will strengthen the inspection of the product, less similar mistakes.
B&W KING is a new brand and new product. I promise to be responsible and satisfactory to every photographer who USES B&W KING.
Again, I apologize for the problem.
I can't speak English, this is a computer translation, there is probably a mistake, please understand.
Best regards

[MichaelPRyan]

BW Man,

I never once doubted your integrity or honesty or anything like that. I was simply concerned with the rust that was appearing. I don’t have any background in metals so I didn’t know why rust would appear when it was stainsless steel. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again it is extremely well made and very robust. It’s a pleasure to see such a product anymore. I will try using some acid and see what happens. thanks again for your response.

Thank you for your concern
Dear MichaelPRyan
I received your letter and saw your picture.Apologize for the problem with B&W KING.
1. Please believe that all the parts of B&W KING are made of 304 stainless steel. My contract to the manufacturer is clear.
2. The upper and lower parts of the film mounting rack can only be used for precision casting because of the complex shape.It is very likely that the rust marks are caused by the insufficient cleaning of the casting residue.
3. In the processing of B&W KING, the welding and casting process will produce rust marks.This is normal.In the end, it will be treated with strong acid to ensure the brightness of stainless steel products.
4. The rust mark shown in your photo should be the reason for the final acid washing not in place.
Because the whole B&W KING product is supervised or handled by myself, I will tell you the whole process, please don't worry too much.
Solution:
1. Please use a high concentration of acetic acid (fixative liquid raw material) or stainless steel passivation cleaning solution to soak, the rust will soon disappear.This is my way of dealing with this problem.
2.Please tell me the address of your order B&W KING on ebay. I will send you a new product as soon as possible.Solve your problem thoroughly.
I'm a retired photographer. B&W KING is my own product. It took eight years to develop the product. Each B&W KING process is done by myself.I will strengthen the inspection of the product, less similar mistakes.
B&W KING is a new brand and new product. I promise to be responsible and satisfactory to every photographer who USES B&W KING.
Again, I apologize for the problem.
I can't speak English, this is a computer translation, there is probably a mistake, please understand.
Best regards

[MichaelPRyan]

Well I'm actually quite astounded that bw-man has sent me a new reel AND tank! I have not seen customer service like this in a very long time. It is rare. I actually received it a while back and was out of town so I didn't realize it was even here. If anyone is interested in his product I wouldn't hesitate for one minute with the purchase. I'm so glad there are people like this in the photo community. Refreshing.

[David Aimone]

Yes, great customer service and product. I have a development protocol that solved the under-processed stripe across the middle of the negative. I think this issue was partially caused by my use of Pyrocat-MC in glycol, which probably has a different consistency than most developers. But I'm happy, and with the purchase of a second 5x7" reel, I will have two fully functional tanks.

Thank you bw-man!

David


Well I'm actually quite astounded that bw-man has sent me a new reel AND tank! I have not seen customer service like this in a very long time. It is rare. I actually received it a while back and was out of town so I didn't realize it was even here. If anyone is interested in his product I wouldn't hesitate for one minute with the purchase. I'm so glad there are people like this in the photo community. Refreshing.

[cp_photo]

Can the 5x7 tank be used for developing 4x5 as well?

[David Aimone]

Yes, I believe I've done this. Since 5x7's are loaded in length wise, the width of the slot in the reel is 5". Therefore, you can load a 4x5 sheet in width-wise.


Can the 5x7 tank be used for developing 4x5 as well?

[cp_photo]

Thanks that is an important detail, as it means the tank is more useful to me. I intend to get one when I expand into 5x7 soon.
Yes, I believe I've done this. Since 5x7's are loaded in length wise, the width of the slot in the reel is 5". Therefore, you can load a 4x5 sheet in width-wise.

[David Aimone]

The only downside is you'll be using 1.35 liters of developer for six 4x5's.


Thanks that is an important detail, as it means the tank is more useful to me. I intend to get one when I expand into 5x7 soon.

[David Aimone]

Two things to report on the 5x7 B-W King tank:

First, I think the streaks that I was getting down the middle of the images at times was mostly due to using Pyrocat MC in glycol. This developer and this tank are touch and go. I have used it now with Rodinal and Caffenol a number of times and no streaks whatsoever.

Second, because of the perceived rust issue on the original tops, B-W Man was nice enough to send us all new tanks/tops. So I had two tanks and one reel. I ordered a 5x7 reel alone from him to make two complete sets and lo and behold, an entire tank system arrives. Now I have 3 tanks/tops and two reels. Great customer service, but how does he stay in business?

Thank you B-W King!

[bw-man]

Two things to report on the 5x7 B-W King tank:

First, I think the streaks that I was getting down the middle of the images at times was mostly due to using Pyrocat MC in glycol. This developer and this tank are touch and go. I have used it now with Rodinal and Caffenol a number of times and no streaks whatsoever.

Second, because of the perceived rust issue on the original tops, B-W Man was nice enough to send us all new tanks/tops. So I had two tanks and one reel. I ordered a 5x7 reel alone from him to make two complete sets and lo and behold, an entire tank system arrives. Now I have 3 tanks/tops and two reels. Great customer service, but how does he stay in business?

Thank you B-W King!

Dear David Aimone
Thank you for your comments on B&W KING.
I am a photographer, not a very qualified salesman.
In developing the film, I found that many development tanks have different advantages and disadvantages.Then came the idea of designing a development tank for your own use.The birth of B&W KING was designed for my own use first. It can be welcomed by photographers from various countries and its success is an honor to me. I pay more attention to it.I have no higher requirement for sales and profit.Ensuring B&W KING's performance and service is the first priority.
B&W KING has had many design changes and process changes in the production process.The lid of the can is sprayed with Teflon to overcome the problem that QPQ is prone to rust.Every user of B&W KING requests an upgrade, and I am obligated to do so.Because the diameter of each developing canister varies slightly, different canisters may leak with different canisters.I decided to use the symbolic price of one dollar to mail a set of perfect development canisters, each photographer's use of the flawless B&W KING.This is for the B&W KING brand, because I am also a B&W KING photographer.
Some photographers buy B&W KING again, or even film mounts alone.This is the high evaluation and affirmation of B&W KING.Due to the precision of the film mounting frame, to prevent the transportation from colliding deformation, I used stainless steel cans as the packaging.These tanks are likely to have small scratches and deformations, but can be well filled with liquid.
I hope more photographers can know, use and love B&W KING.
thank you

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[Bernice Loui]

Difficulty and known problem with teflon coated metal surfaces that rub, the teflon coating will wear and over time disappear due to friction and abrasion. It is very difficult to hold tolerances required for a fluid seal for drawn and stamped metal parts. If the fit is too loose, the tank will leak, if the fit is too tight there will be difficult putting the parts together. To achieve a functional fit there must be some give in both of the parts involved to allow for tolerances and elasticity of the metal parts. Material thickness of the parts can make a very significant difference in the parts ability to be elastic enough yet springy enough to achieve a good fluid seal and allow for production tolerances.

Alternative would be to make the lid from a proper type of plastic. This is what Kindermann did in their developing tanks and they do not leak, hold up just fine over decades of servie, do not tent when dropped as metal parts will, and solves the problem of metal part tolerances and sealing.


Bernice

[David Aimone]

The tank in fact does leak. But it's meant to be used with rotation, not inversion.

HOWEVER, I use it with both rotation and inversion. A simple piece of electrical tape around the seal does the trick beautifully. Easy.


Difficulty and known problem with teflon coated metal surfaces that rub, the teflon coating will wear and over time disappear due to friction and abrasion. It is very difficult to hold tolerances required for a fluid seal for drawn and stamped metal parts. If the fit is too loose, the tank will leak, if the fit is too tight there will be difficult putting the parts together. To achieve a functional fit there must be some give in both of the parts involved to allow for tolerances and elasticity of the metal parts. Material thickness of the parts can make a very significant difference in the parts ability to be elastic enough yet springy enough to achieve a good fluid seal and allow for production tolerances.

Alternative would be to make the lid from a proper type of plastic. This is what Kindermann did in their developing tanks and they do not leak, hold up just fine over decades of servie, do not tent when dropped as metal parts will, and solves the problem of metal part tolerances and sealing.


Bernice

[Bernice Loui]

Not saying this tank leaks by any means. The information is intended to note the difficulties and problems with making a tank like this with minimal to no leaks, it is no small task. There are many technical aspects combined with the realities of production that makes stuff like this more difficult to produce than it may appear.


Bernice


The tank in fact does leak. But it's meant to be used with rotation, not inversion.

HOWEVER, I use it with both rotation and inversion. A simple piece of electrical tape around the seal does the trick beautifully. Easy.

[Tin Can]

I use Nikor tanks for 2x3 sheet film with the Nikor waffle type insert. These are the same tanks used for roll film. Not much, if any leaking. My hands stay dry,

Last week for my first time I used a VGC Nikor 4X5 tank with the multiformat spiral, like a B&W King, This tank appears as new. It leaks a bit, but not enough to say it lost critical liquid volume. I was inverting 5sec every minute for 20 minutes. Using Rodinol 1/100.

Next time I will wear gloves.

[MichaelPRyan]

Can the 5x7 tank be used for developing 4x5 as well?

Yes I do it all the time. No problem at all.

[MichaelPRyan]

He is a man with much integrity isn't he? Wow. If only more people ran their business as he does. I'm just so happy with mine.
Two things to report on the 5x7 B-W King tank:

First, I think the streaks that I was getting down the middle of the images at times was mostly due to using Pyrocat MC in glycol. This developer and this tank are touch and go. I have used it now with Rodinal and Caffenol a number of times and no streaks whatsoever.

Second, because of the perceived rust issue on the original tops, B-W Man was nice enough to send us all new tanks/tops. So I had two tanks and one reel. I ordered a 5x7 reel alone from him to make two complete sets and lo and behold, an entire tank system arrives. Now I have 3 tanks/tops and two reels. Great customer service, but how does he stay in business?

Thank you B-W King!

[Alan9940]

He is a man with much integrity isn't he? Wow. If only more people ran their business as he does. I'm just so happy with mine.

+1

[Bernice Loui]

Majority of the Nikkor, Honeywell stainless steel tanks leak specially at the filler cap. IMO, really not much of a problem. Wear gloves and be prepared for the drips and leaks that will and does happen. The Kinderman tanks with plastic lids do not leak. They do leak if the plastic cap is worn out.

Fact that one can get a 5x7 SST film tank is really great.


Bernice

[bw-man]

Can the 5x7 tank be used for developing 4x5 as well?


Yes, I believe I've done this. Since 5x7's are loaded in length wise, the width of the slot in the reel is 5". Therefore, you can load a 4x5 sheet in width-wise.

As the designer of B&W KING, it's great to see the photographers discussing
the use of B&W KING.
For "Can the 5x7 tank be used for developing 4x5 as well?"Question, I make
the following points:
1. B&W KING's 4X5 and 5X7 film holder have the same diameter,
110mm.Height difference 4X5 film frame 125mm, 5X7 film frame 145mm.4X5
and 5X7 film holder, can use 5X7 development tank together.
2. 5X7 film holder. It is not recommended to install 4X5 film.
Although some photographers use it this way, I, as B&W KING designer, do not
advocate it.
Because, B&W KING according to the brand film width specifications such as
ilford.A lot of brand film width is strict, but film length has bigger error.If the
length of the 4X5 film is different from the width of the 5X7 film, a 4X5 film may
fall off during installation.
My recommendation, the most reliable way, is that 4X5 and 5X7 use a special
model film holder.
It is normal for everyone to have a different understanding and use of the
same product.
Being able to develop satisfactory film is a good way.
My advice is just one way to use it.
Any big picture photographer has a strict choice of photographic supplies.I
believe that B&W KING will be recognized, accepted and satisfied by the big
picture photographers in more countries.
I can't speak English. This is a computer translator.There are likely to be
mistakes, please forgive me.
thank

183469

[EdSawyer]

Keep up the good work!

[bw-man]

Recently, production of the B&W KING 13x18cm stainless steel development tank has been completed.
13x18cm film mount, 3mm higher than 5X7.Special 13X18cm film, not suitable for 5 "X7" film development.

Model: BWG - 08
Size:13x18cm Load 6 once a time films
Height: 195 mm
Diameter: 110 mm
Capacity: 1350 ml
Weight: 1350 g
Material: stainless steel

So far, B&W KING has three models: 4X5, 5X7 and 13X18cm.The plan of product design has been completed. In the future, I will focus on expanding the market and providing good product services.
Thanks for your attention and support.

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[Tim V]

Maybe a stupid question, but can you adapt this design for 8x10" film? If yes and there's good results with pyro I'd buy in a second!

[Tim V]

In addition to above: is the reason there’s no 8x10 tank because of the time it would take to fill? I see the only real option for a daylight tank for me is a Jobo Expert 3005 drum on manual roller base, but man they’re expensive...

[bw-man]

Maybe a stupid question, but can you adapt this design for 8x10" film? If yes and there's good results with pyro I'd buy in a second!


In addition to above: is the reason there’s no 8x10 tank because of the time it would take to fill? I see the only real option for a daylight tank for me is a Jobo Expert 3005 drum on manual roller base, but man they’re expensive...

Dear Tim V
Thanks for your attention to B&W KING.
B&W KING development tank design started in 2012, from 4X5, 5X7, to 13X18cm.Success, failure, success.It's a long way.
8X10 has also been studied and samples made.But there are difficulties:
1. B&W KING is a one-handed method to install film.8X10 film is very large, one hand operation is prone to vibration, film scratches.
2. B&W KING adopts a liquid-filled development mode.The 8X10 development tank reaches a height of 25cm.The stainless steel tank is filled with liquid and weighs more than 3kg.Manual operation is difficult.(I don't like lightweight materials like plastic.)
Of course, there are also technical difficulties in production and other problems that can not be overcome.So the 8X10 can design was abandoned.
Any equipment, technology, will be subject to the restrictions of conditions, sometimes is insurmountable.
Dare to challenge new things, and at the same time dare to admit failure, but also must have the will.
At present, B&W KING4X5, 5X7 and 13X18cm have achieved success in product design and are recognized, accepted and welcomed by photographers from more and more countries.I'm happy.
It is a great pleasure to talk with you. The encouragement of many photographers is to give me the confidence to do well in B&W KING.I thank you.
I can't speak English, this is a computer translation, probably not accurate, please forgive me.
Sincere greetings
Junjie liu

http://www.bw-king.com/

[Ironage]

I am having the problem with the band as well. Should the film be loaded emulsion facing out, or in? This was using the rotator for agitation, next time I will invert the tank.

190592

[Alan9940]

Emulsion should face center of reel. I’ve only ever done inversion with this tank and it took some trial-n-error or eliminate the band. I found a slow, smooth inversion worked best.

[Francois Croizet]

Dear Junjie liu

I am trying to contact you via mail (www.bw-king.com) to get infos about you developping tank.

But it seems that your adress is not working. Do you have any other option to mail you directly ?

With best greards

Francois

[Alan9940]

Francois,

Maybe try contacting him via eBay? I just checked US-based eBay and he is still selling his tanks.

[David Aimone]

Emulsion side inward, definitely. What developer are you using? And is this 5x7?


I am having the problem with the band as well. Should the film be loaded emulsion facing out, or in? This was using the rotator for agitation, next time I will invert the tank.

190592

[bw-man]

I am having the problem with the band as well. Should the film be loaded emulsion facing out, or in? This was using the rotator for agitation, next time I will invert the tank.


Dear Ironage
The problem with your photo is that it takes too long to turn the tank core during development.The rotation time is controlled at one turn per minute and there should be no problem with uneven development.
The picture below, which I took recently with a 5x7 camera, was developed with d-76 and diluted 1:1 for 16 minutes.B&W development tank, turn once a minute, the results should be satisfactory.
Everyone has different habits.I hope my experience will help you.
I haven't come to this forum for a long time. Sorry for the late reply.

198958

Old man in rural China, le kai 5X7 film, July 2019

[LabRat]

I need to do a test of a Nikor 4X5 tank soon, and would like to know what others have standardized as an agitation method???

I will test developing of 8 sheets of Foma 100, in DK-50, and would like to test the starting point for the extended development... And what inverted agitation method and how often???

I know this has been covered, but this thread has become long and confusing, and discussions about different sizes and makes of tanks have been making my head spin...

Thanks for a clear and concise summary!!!

Happy new year,

Steve K

[Alan9940]

Steve,

I use the B&W King 4x5 tank and have never even seen a Nikkor 4x5 tank, but, based on pics of the Nikkor reel, etc, I'm thinking they're very similar. I do normal inversion agitation or stand development with the B&W King tank. However, due to the central band around the B&W reel (and associated issues as reported in this thread) I tend to agitate slowly and as smoothly as possible. Therefore, following an initial 30 secs of agitation I'll generally do only 2 inversions each minute thereafter. The initial agitation is, maybe, 8 inversions total. I simply adjust time, as needed, to compensate for the "decreased" agitation and have never had uneven development. Agitation methods for the Nikkor tank could be totally different, of course, so...YMMV. But, I hope something I've said here helps.

[David Aimone]

I also think this is somewhat dependent on the film and the developer. I just started using the 8x10 tank by 20th Century camera. These are different, probably plastic parts made by a 3D printer, but I have similar streaks on the back but only when using some films and developers, like the BW King. With those developers and films, inserting solved the problem.

However, since the middle bar on BOTH of these tanks are along the backside of the film, I am wondering if this is not uneven development, but a failure to completely remove the anti-halation layer on the back and/or incomplete fixing of silver on the back of the sheet. Next time I run some unimportant negatives through either, I'm going to invert the pre wash but nothing else. If I have streaks still on the back, I will fix them further in fresh fixer to see if they disappear.

Does that make any sense? If it was uneven development, why would it be right along the middle bar when that middle bar is not on the emulsion side???


Steve,

I use the B&W King 4x5 tank and have never even seen a Nikkor 4x5 tank, but, based on pics of the Nikkor reel, etc, I'm thinking they're very similar. I do normal inversion agitation or stand development with the B&W King tank. However, due to the central band around the B&W reel (and associated issues as reported in this thread) I tend to agitate slowly and as smoothly as possible. Therefore, following an initial 30 secs of agitation I'll generally do only 2 inversions each minute thereafter. The initial agitation is, maybe, 8 inversions total. I simply adjust time, as needed, to compensate for the "decreased" agitation and have never had uneven development. Agitation methods for the Nikkor tank could be totally different, of course, so...YMMV. But, I hope something I've said here helps.

[LabRat]

Steve,

I use the B&W King 4x5 tank and have never even seen a Nikkor 4x5 tank, but, based on pics of the Nikkor reel, etc, I'm thinking they're very similar. I do normal inversion agitation or stand development with the B&W King tank. However, due to the central band around the B&W reel (and associated issues as reported in this thread) I tend to agitate slowly and as smoothly as possible. Therefore, following an initial 30 secs of agitation I'll generally do only 2 inversions each minute thereafter. The initial agitation is, maybe, 8 inversions total. I simply adjust time, as needed, to compensate for the "decreased" agitation and have never had uneven development. Agitation methods for the Nikkor tank could be totally different, of course, so...YMMV. But, I hope something I've said here helps.

Thanks Alan, but could you describe you agitation a little more???

So are you agitating twice per minute by slowly turning over the tank in your hands, or is it held in front of you and turning over in a long arc??? And does it take 1 or 2 seconds to invert or longer??? When do you rap the tank to dislodge air???

Have you had issues due to pre-soaking or washing, and how many 4x5 sheets do you normally do per run, and does the # ever change???

I expect the Nikor to behave close to the BW Man system, just maybe slight different dev time... Also, I have read long ago to add about 20% dev time as a starting point for tests... Does it come out about to that for you???

Thanks again,

Steve K

[Alan9940]

Thanks Alan, but could you describe you agitation a little more???

So are you agitating twice per minute by slowly turning over the tank in your hands, or is it held in front of you and turning over in a long arc??? And does it take 1 or 2 seconds to invert or longer??? When do you rap the tank to dislodge air???

Have you had issues due to pre-soaking or washing, and how many 4x5 sheets do you normally do per run, and does the # ever change???

I expect the Nikor to behave close to the BW Man system, just maybe slight different dev time... Also, I have read long ago to add about 20% dev time as a starting point for tests... Does it come out about to that for you???

Thanks again,

Steve K

I agitate the B&W tank like I would any other hand tank, albeit more slowly and deliberately. Here's the agitation sequence:

1) Pick tank up
2) With one hand on top and one on the bottom (I find it necessary to use two hands, in this case, because the full tank is a bit heavy) and the tank out in front of me, I invert it and as I do I twist the tank in a circular motion about 180 degrees.
3) As I'm setting the tank back down to rest, I rap the side of it with my palm or knuckles.

This sequence takes me about 4 secs for one cycle. Therefore, initial agitation for 30 secs comes to about 8 inversions, followed by 10 secs of agitation (2 inversions) every minute thereafter. I don't tend to do short development times so agitating every 30 secs is not necessary, IMO. I hope this makes sense.

I pre-soak all film (yes, even Ilford) and I've never noticed any issues from doing this. I think my B&W reel holds a max of 10 sheets, but I've never run it that full. I tend to process 4 - 8 sheets at a time because that's about what I'll shoot in a days outing. The number of sheets does change, of course, but I always run the tank full; even if processing only a single sheet. Actually, I do the same with my Jobo film drums in that I never use the minimum amount of chemistry. Chemicals are cheap and I want to make sure I've got sufficient chemistry to do the job.

Sorry, I've never heard the 20% more dev time recommendation. All the film I use (only a few different brands really) is tested using a densitometer. I strive for 0.10 over fb+f for Zone I and 1.25 - 1.35 for Zone VIII, then make slight adjustments from there, if I feel it's necessary. I've used Fred Picker's Proper Proof method for 40 years so it's very easy to see if anything changes and/or to quickly pick up on errors I may make in the field.

[Tin Can]

I do the Nikor tank the same way, slow and careful inversions, I have no idea about spinning the reel

And yes emulsion in

But I have clumsy fingers and only put 6 sheets in it, hopefully every other slot

Takes time to adjust the thing for 1/4 plate film

I practiced loading a lot with old exposed film

Works fine!