View Full Version : Restoring brass on a Sanderson Tropical
Rover90
19-Oct-2015, 09:20
Hello everyone,
Well I've just taken my first step into the world of large format. I was walking through a street market in Bath a few weeks ago and spotted a pile of wood, brass, and leather on a stall. It was a half-plate Sanderson Tropical, and if a camera could weep... it looked very sorry for itself! Much to the delight of my wife, I took it home and began researching to find out more about it. One thing I discovered was that the more I learnt, the less I knew. I feel sure I'm going to have a number of questions throughout this project, so if I may, I'm going to begin by asking you for advice about the brasswork.
The fittings on this camera are solid brass rather than plated. Having removed the front struts I cleaned off the old brown shellac coating with methylated spirits, and gave it a good polish with Brasso (I'm in the UK, so I don't know whether that tradename has travelled far?) My question is this: having cleaned the struts, how would you recommend I finish them?
I bought a bottle of 'white polish' for the woodwork - this seems to be a more modern shellac-based French polish, so would that be appropriate? I have also seen references to Renaissance wax or tung oil. I'm not sure about the former. It's great for use in museums where objects are left on display, but I like to use my cameras even if only occasionally. I know lacquer is also a possibility, but I'm looking for durability without a thick coating that will impede the movement of the struts and the other bits I have yet to clean. What would you guys use for a camera that is nearly 110 years old?
Finally, and in the spirit of give and take - have you ever cleaned brass only to be left with dark blotches that your polish won't remove? I'm told these stains are a type of corrosion that results from the proportions of zinc and copper in the alloy. The somewhat unexpected way to remove them is tomato ketchup..! Clean the item with your chosen metal polish (Brasso or whatever) and apply ketchup liberally to the stains. Leave it for a few hours and you will find it goes a horrible dirty green - this does not sit well with the 'normal' tomato smell that remains! Wash it off, dry thoroughly, and give it another polish. You will be amazed at the result - and if you're anything like me, a bit concerned about what ketchup does to your insides next time you have a bag of chips!!!
Thanks in advance for your help.
Roger
At least the brass wasn't thin plated with half of it gone, and the base metal...
The stains will buff out, and as soon as possible after cleaning, carefully wipe down with acetone (wearing gloves to not leave fingerprints) and spray with a gloss clear coat, or thin some shellac and rub down with a thin cloth a very thin layer on the bare (removed) parts... Expect a little (slight) oxidation in the weeks/months to come, but consider it a natural aging process...
For the wood, first find a non visible area, and dab a tiny spot with denatured alcohol, and if it melts, the finish was shellac...
To finish, look up "french polishing" with shellac... It can be applied over an existing finish (as it is done on old guitars), but the finish does not like to get too wet, or alcohol applied to it... But can usually be fixed and if all goes wrong, removed or thinned with a strong alcohol...
I don't have a pix of it handy, but I'm re-starting a restoration of an old French field camera that had been covered for many years with white house paint heavily applied to the camera and bellows, used as a prop for advertising in a photographer's shop window... (I had seen it as a young child, and many years later ended up with it...) Underneath the paint was beautiful cherrywood and brass fittings (that were crusty black)... But with a lot of cleaning and giving the brass a clear coat many years ago, the wood and metal are still in good condition, so yes, there is a finish under there, somewhere...
Good luck!!!
Steve K
Drew Wiley
19-Oct-2015, 12:02
Shellac is the method for restoration authenticity. But an automotive clearcoat product like Raindance would be more durable. The problem with waxes and related polymer clearcoats is that you don't want to get them onto anything other than the metal hardware. Once on wood itself, you'd have to strip the wax to apply a true oil finish, though many old time camera finishes were oil/was mixtures. Be careful with these - oily rags from applying such products are infamous for spontaneous combustion. Dunk them in water immediately after use. Polishing brass is easy enough. For small parts use a Dremel felt points and pads at REDUCED SPEED. Otherwise, the mere thought of shiny brass makes me want to barf. In my 20's I spent endless hours polishing brass during renovations of Victorian mansions. Then in my 30's I sold millions of dollars worth of brass hardware annually for similar projects. Thankfully, my own wooden view cameras have either titanium or aircraft aluminum hardware, and my wooden tripod have bronze and stainless.
Congrats on the find, I wish I had such luck !
Those dark stains in the as you ascertained are deep corrosion of the copper component of the brass
I've used nylon abrasive wheels to buff them out, Dremel sells them in sets of a fine and coarse wheels.
Then hand polish it all back to whatever the OEM surface finish was like with a metal polish like Flitz.
You can lacquer the brass if you thin it out and spray it on, shellac may be too warm a tone for the brass.
I've usually left the brass bare after polishing, I have 1908 kodak 2d that I left as is after cleaning
and polishing and the brass looks great 3 years later.
I would carefully check the wood for the type of finish that was used, some used lacquer, some shellac.
Clean the wood with a damp cloth to see how the finish is, if the finish looks to be in good shape then
follow with a good cleaning with VM&P Naptha, which shouldn't affect either shellac or lacquer.
To ascertain if it's lacquer or shellac, use a cotton swab with some denatured alcohol and swab a inconspicuous
area, alcohol will dissolve shellac, but not a lacquer finish. If the alcohol does nothing them it's probably a
lacquer finish, I would check with some lacquer thinner just to be sure.
With shellac as Labrat mentions can be refinished over the old, on my 2d which used shellac I basically
polished it with a rag dampened with alcohol, it re activated the original shellac and didn't add any thickness.
Laquer could be done the same way but it's tricky.
Good luck and post pictures of the camera !
Steven Tribe
19-Oct-2015, 12:30
Brass finishing varies a lot. Some were plain shellac, later sometimes a burnished brown finish (especialy french walnut cameras) or varying thicknesses of nickel plating.
Wood finishing was a bit more complicated than it looks, as mahogany, walnut and teak have many surface dimples and holes which makes for a dilemma as to whether a mirror finish is required or not. Some fill out these holes before using shellac. I use many (more than 10) layers of modern spray lacquer. All fitments are removed beforehand, of course.
Your biggest problem will be the bellows, unless you have been very, very lucky!
Rover90
19-Oct-2015, 12:46
Steve and Drew,
Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. The existing finish is definitely shellac - I carried out the test on a seriously mutilated lens panel! At least it wasn't coated in white paint... Even however many years ago it was when your camera got the 'treatment', Steve, you have to wonder what was going through the mind of the person who did it?! I have to admit that since I work for museums, I do seem to possess some kind of 'originality gene' so I think I'm probably sold on the idea of French polish (which does seem to be what the white polish I mentioned is, and it does say on the bottle that it goes clear on drying) Drew, like I said, I am new to the LF game, but I'm interested to hear that you have wooden cameras with titanium and/or aircraft ally hardware? Such magic would not have been an option in 1908!
Thanks again, guys.
Roger
Jac@stafford.net
19-Oct-2015, 12:54
I have to admit that since I work for museums,
Ah, excellent, then you are probably aware of the US government documents regarding restoration standards and techniques. (None that I know of mention Brasso, however. :))
I would like to know how to get the dark, almost golden-brownish color of brass. Tried banana oil, but all I got out of it was fruit salad.
Rover90
19-Oct-2015, 12:57
That's interesting, Jim. So you cleaned and polished the brass, and then left it bare to just tarnish naturally? Whilst the brass on my camera is looking much better for being cleaned and polished, I'm aware that if I lacquer it (or whatever) to preserve the shine it is going to look a bit glitzy. Once I've figured how to post pics I'll post some of it in its as found condition.
All the best
Roger
I have three different colour shellac and use the most appropriate to keep the original colour, I prefer to make my own French polish as it seems to work better than the commercial varieties here in the UK.
It doesn't help that some manufacturers coloured their french polish, used a gesso base or stained the wood first. shellac for brass work and lenses often contained Tumeric and Dragons Blood (a red resin plant pigment) - I've found Ikjet pigments work just as well.
Ian
Rover90
19-Oct-2015, 13:05
you are probably aware of the US government documents regarding restoration standards and techniques
Hi Jac,
No, I'm not - but here in the UK the Museums Association sets such standards. However, I imagine that it's the same in the USA in that museums take the conservation approach rather than restoration. I want to use my camera, so although originality is important to me, it has to be practical too!
Cheers
Roger
Yo Roger,
With the "whiteout" job on my camera, I'm not surprised... Here in the states, we have had an excess of stuff for a long time, and a lot of "junk" that had done it's job long ago... So we had a lot of stuff left over from the wars, use/abuse, etc... (A lot of inventions from the "analog" days came from things made from junk from "behind the barn", as this was the material that one had at hand...) Look at something like Hot Rods... (Old cars spliced together...) So not surprising to find something that cost almost nothing then, and since it was theirs, they had the "right" to do ANYTHING with it!!! Sad, when done badly, but it would happen all the time... But back then, (mostly) no one wanted old stuff much, but now is cherished (and $$$$$$$!!!!)
Look up the "french polish" as it is not in a bottle, but a process to make an applicator and apply a VERY thin coating of shellac to a surface...
Have fun!!!
Steve K
Rover90
19-Oct-2015, 14:54
Hi Steve,
Aha... Now that makes sense... We do have stuff in bottles marketed as French polish or similar, so I must admit that I thought of it more as the product rather than the process. It also refinforces IanG's comment about making up his own in three different colours - so thanks to both for that idea!
StevenTribe commented that the bellows would be my biggest challenge. DON'T MENTION BELLOWS to me..!!! I made an embarrassing cock-up whilst removing them... They weren't great to start with - they're not quite that good now :p Ah well, I learnt a lot that day!
I'm posting four pics of it in its 'as found' state after a wipe down...
Roger
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Drew Wiley
19-Oct-2015, 15:46
Shellac on brass is intended to be very thin. But "French Polish" really refers to slowly building up multiple coats of it, swabbed on one after another, with abrasive polishing in between. Traditionally they use pumice and rottenstone in paraffin oil. Now you buy some commercial polish or do like me - fine Scotchbrite pads. Shellac flakes can be obtained in various degrees of amber. It's all based on how much the flakes were bleached first. In paint or hobby stores you generally only get the option of clear or amber (orange) shellac. Some of it contains wax to slow drying. Best to mix your own if you can. I cheated a couple week ago and used penetrating marine epoxy with a tad of true can rust mixed into it - I wanted the "look" on a particular piece (to match my weathered tripod), but the performance of a modern permanent waterproofing. There are all kinds of tricks.
That's interesting, Jim. So you cleaned and polished the brass, and then left it bare to just tarnish naturally? Whilst the brass on my camera is looking much better for being cleaned and polished, I'm aware that if I lacquer it (or whatever) to preserve the shine it is going to look a bit glitzy. Once I've figured how to post pics I'll post some of it in its as found condition.
All the best
Roger
That's pretty much what I did, it looks pretty decent considering I didn't clear coat the brass three years
ago, sweaty fingers do leave marks ! ;)
I do remember that I used a product called Eagle One Never Dull after I cleaned the brass as a final
polish, it's a coarse cotton wadding to with petroleum distillates for polishing metals.
That may be why it looks as good as it does compared to my other 2d's that didn't use Never Dull on.
Your camera looks like a gem in the rough, you might want to try soaking some of the brass
hardware in lacquer thinner to strip off any coating that may be on there to see what the original finish
was like, it looks like the Brasso didn't quite reach the brass in some ot your pictures.
This a just taken picture of my 2d's brass -
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goamules
19-Oct-2015, 18:53
Here's a Sanderson Tropical I had for a while, in "semi patina" condition. Nice little camera, I wish I'd kept.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5248/5246282607_6109e61c94_b.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5201/5246282429_885a896774_b.jpg
Roger, if it was mine I'd be looking for another lens panel and original lens as the one on the camera has been modified to take the presumably Dallmeyer (Packard) shutter. You do see these lens boards and lens & shutters for sale reasonably often.
Ian
Pete Watkins
20-Oct-2015, 00:57
The brass on your camera would have originally "hot lacquered". The grained or polished brass would have been warmed up and given a coat of shellac based lacquer. Various coloured lacquers were still available in the 1960's. the workshop where I worked favoured Hot Gold lacquer from a shop named Gedges in (I think) St. Johns Street in Clerkenwell. If the brass was too hot the lacquer boiled on contact and the brass was quickly dunked into some meths, cleaned up and it all started again.
Pete.
Rover90
20-Oct-2015, 14:33
Thanks again to you all for more interesting comments: IanG - Yes, you're right. A Packard-Ideal shutter had been installed (badly!) I have removed it, and the lens panel is restorable. However, if I can find a suitable replacement whilst I'm working on the rest of the camera, then that's the way to go. It didn't come with a lens anyway, so I'm after a Unicum or Koilos shutter with a lens. Peter Watkins - I've tried to track down Gedges, but unfortunately after trading since 1958 they have now gone. Drew Wiley also seems to favour home-brewed lacquer, so I think I'll dig up a few recipes and start experimenting! Then again, JimC's camera looks good without any coating on the brass... Incidentally Jim, the more I look at my camera, the more I think I was lucky. It is a gem - but it hasn't been well treated. You can see the state of the lens panel and some broken/missing brass bits, but you can't see a couple of splits in the wood, etc. By the way, the pics I uploaded were taken before I did anything to it, bar a wipe down to clear some of the thick dust. The dark marks on the brass are the 'corrosion' I spoke of in my original post, and it's difficult to remove. I mentioned Brasso - it's just a tradename. I've no idea how good it is in the great scheme of things (!) but it has a job shifting those marks. That's where the tomato ketchup trick comes in!! I've got a busy week ahead, but I'll take some more pics of the brass as soon as I can to show you. Lastly, thanks to goamules for posting the photos of your old camera. It looks like it was a really nice one - and complete with the Adam's viewfinder and Taylor, Taylor & Hobson spirit level. Mine does at least have the level - but it's all bubble and no spirit, if you get my drift?! These were made to special order for Sanderson's, so whereas I've seen the viewfinders on eBay, I imagine these might be a challenge? Then again, it must be possible to refill them..? That's a question for another thread though..!
Cheers
Roger
Also, let me add a little something a little OT about this operation you are embarking on...
I suggest going about this restoration step by step, as you are making a user camera, try to make it work first, before making it too pretty, or you will be "babying" /fussing with it too much in the field, where if you had a "beater" type camera, you would spend much less time coddling it and more time pounding out shots without worrying about it at all... (If it's for solely for display, that's different!!!)
Another thing is to beware of is "over-restoration", as the camera has earned it's scars over the years, and if you clean it up too much, it will start looking "NEW" (but sometimes knock-off fake), so allow some "character" of the ages to live on...
Re-mounting the Packard shutter nicely is a big+++, so you can use odd barrel lenses + Petzvals, etc, for low money + fun...
Make a lot of extra lens boards so you can try whatever lenses you find... Save the board the came with the camera for display, but for test boards that you can make on your kitchen table (that work VERY well), follow these instructions (for the process) I posted on this page (#6), using your lens board sizes;
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?124106-Lens-board-dimensions-for-4x5-quot-R-B-Super-D-Graflex
There's no law that you can't use modern or classic lenses on it... (Old photographers often adapted their gear due to changing needs or gear they got their hands on over the years... Yours has hints of that!!!)
And take careful measurements of your bellows ASAP (before they fall apart), as you should buy or make another set before you use this camera, because fixing bellows this old quickly becomes a frustrating game of "wack-a-mole"... Search this site for many comments/reviews of current bellows suppliers... (Not a lot of money, sometimes!!!)
It will be a worthwhile journey... You will learn a lot, and the camera will love you for it!!!!!!
Steve K
Pete Watkins
20-Oct-2015, 23:39
This might help:-
Hot Lacquer
½ oz of Annatto
½ oz of Saffron
2 oz of Turmeric
6 oz of Seed-Lac / Shellac in coarse powder form
2 Pints of alcohol (metholated spirits)
Mix the first three ingredients in the alcohol and leave for several days shaking daily.
Strain into a bottle containing the Seed-Lac / Shellac and shake until the shellac is dissolved.
Extra colouring can be obtained with the addition of:-
More Saffron
Gamboge
Dragons Blood
Aniline
Pete.
This might help:-
Hot Lacquer
½ oz of Annatto
½ oz of Saffron
2 oz of Turmeric
6 oz of Seed-Lac / Shellac in coarse powder form
2 Pints of alcohol (metholated spirits)
Mix the first three ingredients in the alcohol and leave for several days shaking daily.
Strain into a bottle containing the Seed-Lac / Shellac and shake until the shellac is dissolved.
Extra colouring can be obtained with the addition of:-
More Saffron
Gamboge
Dragons Blood
Aniline
Pete.
Interesting recipe, using spices as coloring, hard core wood working stores would probably have aniline dyes
that could be substituted. Some lens boards that I made from mahogany I just used blond dewaxed shellac flakes
they look pretty good without staining. What is the process since you don't mention any heating ?
goamules
21-Oct-2015, 11:43
The one expensive ingredient that stood out to me was the Saffron. 1/2 OZ would be between $30-$80.
barnacle
21-Oct-2015, 13:22
And the rest - Tesco supermarket here flog saffron at £2.50 for half a gram... so seventy quid.
I have a Sanderson Junior from the turn of the last century which has never been touched except to use; the external covering is black leather with black-painted brass fittings. The internal brass is lacquered, I think; there's no dulling even on things like the the reflex viewfinder. Amazingly, the spirit level (it's important to keep your spirits level) still has a bubble. The woodwork appears to be brass, again in very good condition. I'm not sure whether it's a polish or varnish, though.
Neil
The one expensive ingredient that stood out to me was the Saffron. 1/2 OZ would be between $30-$80.
Depends where you buy your Saffron it's very cheap in Turkey. Actually Tumeric and Saffron are used to colour foods as well as give flavour.
I use the pigment inks for my Epson printer to colour french polish, you need very little, however I'll try Pete's recipe at some stage as O know he worked in the trade in his youth.
Interesting recipe, using spices as coloring, hard core wood working stores would probably have aniline dyes
that could be substituted. Some lens boards that I made from mahogany I just used blond dewaxed shellac flakes
they look pretty good without staining. What is the process since you don't mention any heating ?
Pete did mention warming the brass work earlier in the thread. The purer the alcohol the quicker it dries, I use meths here in the UK and look for bottles where the purple dye has faded, I leave bottles in sunlight for months to get the sun to bleach out the dye or filter through charcoal. In Turkey the chemists (drug-store) sold me 100% Ethanol and that's great for french polish but for hot lacquering would dry too fast.
Ian
Rover90
21-Oct-2015, 17:19
Wow! Every time I log on to this site there are more posts! Thank you to you all for your comments (and recipes) as they really are appreciated. I will single out SteveK (LabRat) here for his sound advice. Yes Steve, you're absolutely right. I've been diving into this like I'm trying to produce a new camera - which was never what I originally intended. I'll back-pedal a bit, and get it working. It needs a thorough clean as much as anything - it feels 'sticky' when you touch it (yuch!) and one of the locking catches on the swing front had jammed up, and its lever had snapped off. I'll get a local hobbyist to machine a replacement. Couple that with the fact that whoever fitted the shutter drilled holes for the rubber tube and flash synch wires through not only the lens board, but the bottom of the front standard (is that right? The frame that the lens board fits in) as well! So no movement whatsoever! It seems there's still plenty of work for me to do, but thanks for helping me to focus (pun not intended...)
Roger
Pete Watkins
22-Oct-2015, 02:01
I did make and use that lacquer formula years ago. The spices are just for colour so I might not have used much saffron (if any at those prices). Heating the brass before applying the lacquer makes the stuff stick to the brass, it lasts for years if applied well. I saw a clock that had been in Eastleigh Locomotive Works for 50 years and the lacquer was perfect.
Brass can get a green stuff on it, it's called Verdigrease (probably spelt wrongly), this is best killed off by putting the brass parts into an OLD saucepan containing hot water that has had soft soap and ammonia stirred into it. It will stink! Leave the brass overnight then either scrub it with pumice powder using a bristle brush (getting the powder wet is not a problem) or let the brass dry and scrub it with emery powder mixed with thinnish (multigrade) oil. Wash the brass in gasoline / petrol if you use the emery and oil method and allow it to dry before applying lacquer. This is, needless to say, a horrible messy process. The brass can be polished or grained before lacquering. A grained effect can easily be obtained using a nylon scouring pad.
Pete.
Jac@stafford.net
22-Oct-2015, 07:59
I have used a vibratory polisher for years and found it excellent because it gets into the small, tight areas such as the knurled part of knobs. For seriously caked tarnish, the ammonia bath mentioned by Pete Watkins is a good approach. Vinegar works, too. But not both together!
goamules
22-Oct-2015, 10:46
I'll agree that old lacquer was put on very well. I have a couple of 1863 Dallmeyers with original varnish, just as shiny and perfect as the day they were made. Interestingly, other makers, like the American radial drive companies, had much thinner or less robust varnish. You'll hardly ever find original varnish on those.
Drew Wiley
22-Oct-2015, 11:26
Odd day for it, cause I've been selling some industrial scale polishing equip this morning, and it always involves a lot of questions about this n' that first, because
there are so many possibilities, both material-wise and the best way to do it. With some of these older brass knobs etc, one has to differentiate between shellacs,
true old-school lacquers or varnishes, and nitrocellulose lacquers which started showing up early 20th C and are inherently fragile.
Pete Watkins
22-Oct-2015, 11:42
Garret, we knew what we were doin' over 'ere ;-))
Drew Wiley
22-Oct-2015, 12:30
Gosh - just try bootlegging some of those old world finishes into this state, past our air quality laws and fire codes. The only flammable carcinogenic stuff that gets away with that is women's nail polish! The finest lacquer I have ever seen was "French-polished" in maybe two hundred coats over a marble end-table top
once belonging to Louis XIV. It is flawless and uncracked to this day, and about a quarter inch thick! The ingredients: pure baltic amber dissolved in poppyseed
oil. At the time I saw that piece, maybe late 70's, I calculated the cost of the varnish would be around $50,000 dollars per gallon. Today it would be far more.
I'm not afraid to let that trade secret out of the bag, cause I figure there will be no takers unless you basically own Europe too, along with an antique camera.
goamules
22-Oct-2015, 13:26
I imagine there are other worlds to contact, when thinking about brass varnishing. Such as brass instrument restorers. They probably have modern techniques and materials, but even if not, their finishes sure are robust on Saxophones and Trumpets.
Drew Wiley
22-Oct-2015, 13:58
I deal with instrument makers too, including an extremely successful local mfg of stringed (non-electric) varieties. They're just like surfboard makers - each has
a different opinion of how best to do it, and if two of them are here at the same time, there might be a fistfight. The Chinese glyph for war is two women in the
same kitchen. Ours might be two different pyro formulators in the same darkroom. Wood and metal finishers are no different.
Thanks for the shout-out!!!
Taking another look a your pix, wanted to know, do you have the back/GG holder for it???
With your "sticky" finish, probably old nicotine covering it (as smoking was a big pastime for photographers over the ages)... DON'T wipe it with anything water based (as it will haze the shellac)... Test wiping some hidden spot with Ronsonol lighter fluid with a very little on a lint-free cloth... Don't rub, just wipe lightly...
The level can be refilled with denatured alcohol by drilling a pinhole somewhere underneath, then slowly filling it using a hypodermic syringe with the alcohol until filled, then sucking out a little with the syringe, until a good size bubble is obtained, then the pinhole is sealed with a dab of epoxy... (Remove level assy from camera before this operation!!!)
You can fit hardwood plugs (or headed bolts) into unused holes and apply a drop of stain or India ink (for black) or pegs with little handles for the air hose holes... (Make or try a old music repair/supply store for old looking hardware...)
Keep on trucking!!!
Steve K
Ian Gordon Bilson
22-Oct-2015, 20:43
Regarding Renaissance Wax - great product. Also protects unglassed fibre based prints on display.
Rover90
23-Oct-2015, 15:34
Steve,
Having removed the level assembly from the baseboard (!) I will try the repair technique you suggest. I'm interpreting denatured alcohol as methylated spirits, which is normally dyed purple - not ideal! I do have a small amount of industrial meths, which is un-dyed. That could be changed if I knew the original colour - probably yellow or green - but do you think it might be better to use the purple meths and regard it as a further step in the old girl's history? Thanks for the tip anyway. Funny, but I never thought that one day I'd be discussing with people across the world about how to put the bubble back in a spirit level!!!
As for the back... the second of my four pix shows what I've got. Marked Thornton Pickard and with two metal corner brackets - the rusted remains of one can be seen to the right. It's 8" square, with the opening for the focussing screen being 6.5" square. I also have four double dark slides, each measuring 6.25"x4.5", and a small piece of teak roughly 5"x3.5" with a bevelled front edge. This is what the bellows should rack back on into the body of the camera. The tongues along each side and part of the bevel have broken... Like I said, I've got plenty of work!
All the best
Roger
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