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Jac@stafford.net
19-Sep-2015, 16:40
I have a lot of expired Kodak HSIE 4x5 in the freezer. I would use it to document views In my area, penetrating the perpetual haze across our Mississippi River valley, however my attempts yield terribly fogged negatives.

My question is: does HSIE degrade in time due to whatever circumstances? Is it a cosmic radiation issue? Perhaps my darkroom where I load is at fault, or the negative carriers are IR transparent. Net wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

This is an example using 120 near IR. I want to do more in high quality 4x5 with a longer lens.

"http://digoliardi.net/alma_good_1.jpg"

Jac

Jim C.
19-Sep-2015, 16:52
I haven't shot IR film in decades and that was only in 35mm, it could be all of the above with your fogging problem ( age of film and darkroom, film holders)
your film holders with plastic dark slides may be allowing IR radiation thru, do you have ones with metal dark slides ?
It might be worth trying some shots with metal dark slide holders.

Jac@stafford.net
19-Sep-2015, 16:55
I haven't shot IR film in decades and that was only in 35mm, it could be all of the above with your fogging problem ( age of film and darkroom, film holders)
your film holders with plastic dark slides may be allowing IR radiation thru, do you have ones with metal dark slides ?
It might be worth trying some shots with metal dark slide holders.

Jim, I must look into those issues.
Let me add that I am using an entirely metal camera with no fabric bellows.

vinny
19-Sep-2015, 17:51
Yes, it takes on fog more than other films. I have a bunch as well.
Your holders are not at fault.

LabRat
19-Sep-2015, 18:47
I have heard too that IR has a VERY short shelf life... (like months...)

Another issue that has come up with the sheet film also is that it seems to "expose" fingerprints from mere (barely) touching/handling probably from heat from the fingertips... Handling wearing latex gloves helped...

You can (somewhat) "fake" IR haze penetration effects by using a very deep red filter (#29) and a film with good extended red sensitivity (Tech Pan types)

Steve K

Jac@stafford.net
19-Sep-2015, 19:27
[...] Another issue that has come up with the sheet film also is that it seems to "expose" fingerprints from mere (barely) touching/handling probably from heat from the fingertips[...]

I doubt that HSIE is sensitive into the thermal range.

vinny
19-Sep-2015, 19:30
I doubt that HSIE is sensitive into the thermal range.

HSI will show fingerprints just as other ir films. I always wear gloves when loading unloading.

John Olsen
19-Sep-2015, 19:45
I have heard too that IR has a VERY short shelf life... (like months...)
Steve K
I hope you're wrong because I just bought boxes that have been frozen for 10 and 20 years. I have previously shot HIE (35 mm) that was 7 years past expiration, some was good, some was not, who knows?
I'll heed the advice above about metal dark slides. Can't wait to give the 4x5 HIE a try!

LabRat
19-Sep-2015, 21:36
Been there, still have mental scars from shooting HSIE...

Years ago, I had seen a museum show of the work of Julius Shulman, and was VERY inspired to shoot LF IR for the dramatic effect on my commercial exteriors... I had to special order HSIE 4x5 (and wait about 8 months as it was only produced on occasion) and cost me a lot for the minimum order/larger amount...

When I finally got it, I quickly shot 2 sheets, and included it with a commercial lab processing run... The negs come back with more handprints developed into them than a jailhouse window... (I had loaded MANY 10's of thousands of sheets of film with no problems, so I assumed a bad day at the lab...)

So, I tried some more, (and processed it myself) but even with my VERY light 3 point touch on the edge of the film, I noticed my touchpoints had developed into the film!!! And one film had developed a slight swoosh in the image area where my finger must have BARELY skimmed the surface!!! I started wearing latex gloves while handling, and that helped a lot...

Shooting it was no fun, either, as I was shooting under the same light conditions over days, or that day, and lining up the negs on a lightbox, they could be thin or dense, probably due to changing IR levels... Rarely perfect density...

Unexpected issues were common, such as a white exterior wall might have a halation effect that resembled using a crappy, fogged lens... Often there was an uneven focus effect where something in the shot would look sharp, but something right next to it would not... And if there was a treeline in the shot, some leaves would be VERY underexposed, yet one tree might be bursting into a "burning bush" with that dense, grainy halation... (No fun for commercial shooting... I always wanted to ask Julius "how bad were your "bad days"...)

So I took the unexposed boxes of film, put them into x-ray bags, and hid them in the back of the freezer until the weather (and I) cooled down... So that winter, I tried some again, and noticed the negs had built up quite a base fog level during that time...

I'm not a "quitter" but I gave up on it... The stuff seemed cursed with evil gremlins... I went with deep red filters + extended red sensitivity films and got the effect I wanted without the problems... (Film IR is fun to play with, but.....)

If I had to do an extended IR project, (dare I say) I would skip the film step, and get one of those Sigma DSLR's with the removable IR filters and let the camera + it's meter do the heavy lifting, and me just look at the screen and figure out what I needed...


Steve K

Jac@stafford.net
20-Sep-2015, 09:00
Been there, still have mental scars from shooting HSIE... [...]

Shooting it was no fun, either, as I was shooting under the same light conditions over days, or that day, and lining up the negs on a lightbox, they could be thin or dense, probably due to changing IR levels... Rarely perfect density...

Steve K

I will look for an article I saved onto the archive disk. It shows how to use a Weston selenium meter to measure IR.
.

Andrew O'Neill
20-Sep-2015, 09:07
It will last much longer than months. I have a couple of boxes from 1967, yes, 1967 that have been kept frozen. They are heavily fogged, but I can still pull an image from them with very little effort. Conventional films this old will be fogged, too. I had a box that was 5 years past its expiry date that had very minimal fog, and I only kept it in the fridge. The comment about finger prints, showing up on the film, is very true. I never wear gloves. Handle the film by the edges and you will be fine. Do NOT use an acid stop bath.
Enjoy the film, you lucky #%@!!

Renato Tonelli
20-Sep-2015, 13:43
Fogging was caused by the leather bellows when I tried it (Wisner 4x5).

I have many rolls of 35mm HIE purchased in 2008 and kept in the freezer - no fogging problems so far.

John Olsen
20-Sep-2015, 16:19
Do NOT use an acid stop bath.
I had always used an acid stop bath (Kodak Indicator) with the 35mm HIE. Does the 4x5 have a different response to the stop bath? This thread is really timely for me!

Jac@stafford.net
20-Sep-2015, 17:36
Fogging was caused by the leather bellows when I tried it (Wisner 4x5).

This old camera uses a steel tube instead of an organic or composite bellows. Totally IR opaque.

139884

Randy Moe
20-Sep-2015, 18:03
This old camera uses a steel tube instead of an organic or composite bellows. Totally IR opaque.

139884

So u think I should keep the 4x5 Printex I have on loan?

Andrew O'Neill
20-Sep-2015, 18:55
I had always used an acid stop bath (Kodak Indicator) with the 35mm HIE. Does the 4x5 have a different response to the stop bath? This thread is really timely for me!

When using expired film. I get pinholes. With the fresh stuff, I used acid stop. I used a mild acid stop, 5ml per litre and discard after using.

Jac@stafford.net
21-Sep-2015, 06:40
So u think I should keep the 4x5 Printex I have on loan?

If you like the relatively narrow range of focal lengths, yes. Watch for a PM.

Jody_S
21-Sep-2015, 15:34
I will look for an article I saved onto the archive disk. It shows how to use a Weston selenium meter to measure IR.
.

An analog Pentax spotmeter is sensitive through the full range of IR that IR films capture. It has a 46mm front thread. Simply use step-up filters so you can use the same filter on the meter as you're using on your lens. I was able to get perfect exposure on an imagesetting film with extremely narrow exposure latitude. Also, the imagesetting film doesn't seem to fog easily (my rolls are <10 years old, never stored in a freezer), and doesn't mark easily with fingerprints.

Jac@stafford.net
21-Sep-2015, 17:04
I was able to get perfect exposure on an imagesetting film with extremely narrow exposure latitude. Also, the imagesetting film doesn't seem to fog easily (my rolls are <10 years old, never stored in a freezer), and doesn't mark easily with fingerprints.

Is imagesetting film IR sensitive and if it is, why?
.

Jody_S
21-Sep-2015, 17:12
Is imagesetting film IR sensitive and if it is, why?
.

I have no idea why (I thought they used lasers? There aren't any IR-range lasers that I know of). But I have 3 100' x 12" rolls of the stuff.

Andrew O'Neill
21-Sep-2015, 20:28
Jody, have you used it yet? I'd love to see your results.

EdSawyer
22-Sep-2015, 06:08
laser-based imagesetters can have a few different types of lasers, some are infrared lasers (780-820nm range), the film would have been used in one of these. Others used visible red lasers (680nm) or HeNe lasers (480nm), so not all used infrared lasers. Infrared imagesetter film is still made (Agfa, among others). It's really designed for half-tone/graphic arts type reproduction - it's not really meant for continuous-tone negs, my guess is the contrast is rather high on this type of film.

-Ed

Jody_S
22-Sep-2015, 13:25
Jody, have you used it yet? I'd love to see your results.

Yes I've used a bit, I was able to find a processing sweet spot that gave me reasonable tonal range, but it is still a very high contrast film. It is, however, extremely fine grain and capable of much better resolution than any traditional film I've used. I stopped using it a while back when I switched to X-ray, which is less trouble to load, develop, and scan. I would have to go back through my archives to find some examples, but I know I've posted a few here.