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ghostcount
17-Sep-2015, 21:03
http://www.yourcentralvalley.com/news/exclusive-second-billy-the-kid-photo-found-in-fresno
(http://www.yourcentralvalley.com/news/exclusive-second-billy-the-kid-photo-found-in-fresno)
"A Clovis collector says he's the owner of an 1878 tintype with the legendary outlaw Billy The Kid in it - playing croquet."

On October 18, National Geographic will air a 2 hour documentary on the discovery and scientifically "suggest" the identities of the individuals on the image. So far, it has been suggested as,

(From a corrected view left to right)
Doc Scurlock
Big Jim French
Paulita Maxwell
Billy Bonney
Tom O'Folliard
Sallie Chisum
Maria Herrera (holding Doc Scurlock's first born Josiah Scurlock, Jr.)
Various children belonging to the Herrera family
Antonia Scurlock - Doc's wife and Manuela Bowdre's sister (standing next to horse)
Manuela Bowdre
Charlie Bowdre

Will Dunniway helped authenticate the tintype.

Drew Wiley
21-Sep-2015, 08:50
Everybody in Clovis looks like that.

ic-racer
21-Sep-2015, 15:03
who hopes to turn his two dollar purchase into a multi-million dollar payday.

It is not Billy in the photograph, based on that.

goamules
21-Sep-2015, 16:34
I'll watch the show for several reasons. One, I'm friends with Will Dunniway, the wetplate expert in the show. Two, I lived in NM and have read a lot of Billy the Kid histories. I'll make an educated decision after I see all the evidence. As all people should.

Alan Klein
21-Sep-2015, 21:53
Garrett: Any relation to Pat Garrett who I think killed Billy or Jesse James??

goamules
22-Sep-2015, 10:44
No relation. Though I lived in Las Cruces, NM and Pat Garrett was killed in the arroyo across the road from my house.

Alan Gales
22-Sep-2015, 14:59
There was a fellow on American Pickers recently that had a picture of someone he claimed to be Billy the Kid.

Mike and Frank had no interest in buying it.

goamules
22-Sep-2015, 15:51
There are hundreds or thousands of guns attributed to Bonnie and Clyde, Jesse James, Billy the Kid, Pat Garrett, Wild Bill Hickock too. But none ever have any provenance. Let's see what National Geographic digs up in their show on this tintype. They usually don't play around like The History Channel's farces, that at the end always say "we'll never know for sure...thanks for wasting an hour of your time!" Nat Geo affiliates with true research and archeology, though I'm sure someone can bring up some missteps.

Bob Salomon
22-Sep-2015, 15:53
According to what I saw on the news he found it in a now closed antique store. Had it checked by a local "expert". Wonder why it hasn't been examined by the Smitsonian or Christies or another major auction house?

goamules
22-Sep-2015, 19:17
Because it was in a shoebox full of other tintypes in a backwater antique store until recently. Neither the Smithsonian nor Christies are experts at Western history, or photo forensics. Question: how are all the other people in the photo identified? Because if you have more than one person in a photo that is ID'd, and they were known associates, it starts to tighten up the case strongly.

All the other Billy photos over the years, debunked, have been one individual. I don't know where the OP got his info IDing all the others, but I recognize at least two names that were Kid associates and friends.

How do we verify any photo? A tintype of Edgar Alan Poe was recently found, for example. Recognition of the face, and/or provenance.

Drew Wiley
23-Sep-2015, 12:19
Now NG is getting involved, and claiming all the other people in the image can be recognized as known associates of Billy the Kid. I stopped briefly at the edge of
Fresno the other day to pick up a burger on my way back from the mtns. The real estate and people still look the same. For all I know, Billy founded the town.
The only improvement is that they now have a couple of In N' Out franchises along Hwy 99. Billy probably ate at Jack N' th Box (seems like a greasy guy).

ghostcount
23-Sep-2015, 12:54
... I don't know where the OP got his info IDing all the others, but I recognize at least two names that were Kid associates and friends.

From Will D. - he has a spot on the documentary regarding the production of the tin.

No matter what the provenance challenge maybe, it's an interesting documentary on how they went about it. It also involved correlating information from Sallie's known diary placing the people in the image.

goamules
23-Sep-2015, 13:01
Yeah, I knew Will was involved. Sounds like if they have some written diary corroboration, it's getting pretty good.

goamules
24-Sep-2015, 08:24
My wife is into genealogy and looks at a lot of old photographs. She also has an amazing, almost uncanny recognition ability. I could tell stories, but for example we'd be on a motorcycle trip way down in Mexico. I'd stop for gas, and then we could talk, she riding on back. I'd say something like, I wonder if we'll see that little town called Tepic that I heard about?" She'd reply, "oh yes, I saw a billboard for Beer about 100 miles back, it said something about getting it in Tepic, 110 miles. We should be there in about 10 miles." Sure enough, we'd take off and there would be the little village of 100 people. She does that a LOT.

When I showed her this tintype, I said, "you like old pictures, have you seen this one?" That's all I said, she didn't know about the new show, the find, the hypothesis. Nothing. I said, look, they're playing Crochette or something. She looked at all the people in the photo, pointed to the subject of interest, and said:

"That looks like Billy the Kid."

I asked why, she said, "the way he's standing, he looks just like that picture of him."

True story - that just happened 5 min ago.

BrianShaw
24-Sep-2015, 08:33
My wife has the same uncanny ability, Garrett. We call it her "face thing". She can recognize faces seen for only a brief glimpse a long time ago... and can recognize faces in photos that she has never seen before too... like identifying childhood pictures of people she has only known as adults, or adult pictures of people she has only known as a child.

bob carnie
24-Sep-2015, 09:33
Not to take this thread off course.. but some of the most interesting photos are ones where - someone looks completely out of place- like transporting back in time and getting caught in a public
group photo and really being out of place.

I wish I had reference to post, maybe some here have samples.. I think it would make a great thread.



My wife has the same uncanny ability, Garrett. We call it her "face thing". She can recognize faces seen for only a brief glimpse a long time ago... and can recognize faces in photos that she has never seen before too... like identifying childhood pictures of people she has only known as adults, or adult pictures of people she has only known as a child.

Stepmccarty
27-Sep-2015, 16:49
The "Billy" in this newly found photo looks like the Kid to me. I have found Sallie Chisum's personal collection of photographs, almost all tintypes. I traced the origin of the photographs to Walter Pitzer Chisum's family who live not far from where I found the collection. Walter Pitzer was the elder of Sallie's two younger brothers. The collection is large, nearly 60 tintypes. Sallie gathered photographs of she and her family including her husband, children Fred and John, her sister, Mary Branch, her parents, famous uncle and a few cousins. She also collected images of her lady friends, including Lily Casey and Eliza Jane Hestor. She gathered tintypes of Billy the Kid and most of the Regulators....I am missing Fred Waite, but have the others. Most photos are portraits, and very clear. Sheriff Brady and Dan Dedrick are standing, others are seated. The collection includes a wonderful photo of Alex McSween, finally a good clear photo of the man, also old man Gauss! Billy was good looking, which locks of wavy, almost curly brown hair. His lips were harrow but full and closed over obviously bucked front teeth. It is an altogether fabulous collection! About half of the photographs include their original mat.

Bob Salomon
27-Sep-2015, 16:54
The "Billy" in this newly found photo looks like the Kid to me. I have found Sallie Chisum's personal collection of photographs, almost all tintypes. I traced the origin of the photographs to Walter Pitzer Chisum's family who live not far from where I found the collection. Walter Pitzer was the elder of Sallie's two younger brothers. The collection is large, nearly 60 tintypes. Sallie gathered photographs of she and her family including her husband, children Fred and John, her sister, Mary Branch, her parents, famous uncle and a few cousins. She also collected images of her lady friends, including Lily Casey and Eliza Jane Hestor. She gathered tintypes of Billy the Kid and most of the Regulators....I am missing Fred Waite, but have the others. Most photos are portraits, and very clear. Sheriff Brady and Dan Dedrick are standing, others are seated. The collection includes a wonderful photo of Alex McSween, finally a good clear photo of the man, also old man Gauss! Billy was good looking, which locks of wavy, almost curly brown hair. His lips were harrow but full and closed over obviously bucked front teeth. It is an altogether fabulous collection! About half of the photographs include their original mat.

But is this really enough authentication for a 7 figure auction?

Stepmccarty
27-Sep-2015, 17:03
As an aside, what happens to you if you happen to run across such a collection, as I have, is not what one might expect. The experts and other interested people are extremely skeptical! No one beats a path to your door. I have owned this collection since 2006. Holding them in my hand is amazing, because I know that the people depicted probably held that very same photograph....a little sheet of polished iron often encased in a small hard paper mat. Billy is indeed good looking, Frank Coe is not. Sallie is very blond with a narrow, down turned mouth. John S. Chisum is smiling, but a bit out of focus! Dirty Dave Rudabaugh is dower and Billy Wilson pathetic. John Middleton has a huge brushy black mustache and deep, dark eyes with a shock of wavy what looks like black wavy hair. He looks as if he is about to break into a smile. His eyes are laughing. Dick Brewer is a large, handsome man. In Sallie's tintype of her, Lily Casey is a pretty as she ever was, maybe 16 years of age. Phoebe Brown Coe is charming, the tintype nearly like new.

Stepmccarty
27-Sep-2015, 17:15
I'll tell you something about getting a photo "authenticated" Bob. First, no one wants to do it. If they are wrong, they are at risk of future legal action. Computer analysis, that seems should be a slam dunk, is not. For it to work the angles and lighting must be perfect. Provenance is very important. When I found Sallie Chisum's family and they said they used to own the collection, and then sold it in a yard sale, I thought my quest for authentication was done. Not so. I have two problems. One is that the potential value of the collection colors people's opinion of it, money can draw frauds like flies to honey. Furthermore, the collection is considered too good to be true. My collection is exactly what historians have been searching for since that evening in July, 1881. How could I stumble across it in a little antique store? Well, that is exactly what happened.

Stepmccarty
27-Sep-2015, 17:23
Sallie Chisum's diaries are fascinating. Someone needs to transcribe them so they can be published. They are not complete, some parts are missing. They are difficult to read and she sometimes loses track of her dates, but her diaries smack of authenticity. She mentions when she met Billy Bonney and the man she married. Sallie Lucy Chisum was no wilting violet. She was a hard charger and she did not take the failures of her family and marriage easily. When knocked down she always came back swinging. Her life was easily as interesting as was the short and violent life of Willliam Henry McCarty. Sallie lived to be 76, Billy may not have made it to 22.

Bob Salomon
27-Sep-2015, 17:23
I'll tell you something about getting a photo "authenticated" Bob. First, no one wants to do it. If they are wrong, they are at risk of future legal action. Computer analysis, that seems should be a slam dunk, is not. For it to work the angles and lighting must be perfect. Provenance is very important. When I found Sallie Chisum's family and they said they used to own the collection, and then sold it in a yard sale, I thought my quest for authentication was done. Not so. I have two problems. One is that the potential value of the collection colors people's opinion of it, money can draw frauds like flies to honey. Furthermore, the collection is considered too good to be true. My collection is exactly what historians have been searching for since that evening in July, 1881. How could I stumble across it in a little antique store? Well, that is exactly what happened.

It seems like Swann Auctions has a previous history of auctioning an authenticated Kid photo. Have you talked to them?

Stepmccarty
27-Sep-2015, 17:30
No, Bob, I have not spoken with the Swann Auctions. I did however, talk with a few auction houses some years ago. No one registered much interest and most likely for the reasons I outlined in my post. I own tintypes of Billy, Dirty Dave, and Billy Wilson, probably taken when they were jailed in Las Vegas NMT jail. All three men wear ban new suits and hats. Billy and Dave are inside their cells. Wilson was allowed to walk outside to mingle with the deputies. He was photographed sitting in a folding chair in the alley. It is a matter of record that the men's hand cuffs were removed so that they could change into their new suits, provide by Mike Cosgrove. In Wilson's case his cuffs are on a table next to him.

goamules
27-Sep-2015, 17:31
Hey Stepmccarty, thanks for joining our forum and the discussion! I for one appreciate your reasoned discussion, and wish you the best in all of this. And everyone needs to stop worrying about "the money." It's The History, everyone! If, and it's a small if, we find out this really is the frontier or New Mexico, even if NOT Billy, it's an amazing look at our formative years as a cross-continental nation. Women with babies, men on favorite horses, working, playing together, in an area where any week someone could get killed by Indians, or an outlaw. Little law, a month's ride from the populated East. Fascinating, any way you look at it.

Bill_1856
27-Sep-2015, 17:39
There are hundreds or thousands of guns attributed to Bonnie and Clyde, Jesse James, Billy the Kid, Pat Garrett, Wild Bill Hickock too. But none ever have any provenance. Let's see what National Geographic digs up in their show on this tintype. They usually don't play around like The History Channel's farces, that at the end always say "we'll never know for sure...thanks for wasting an hour of your time!" Nat Geo affiliates with true research and archeology, though I'm sure someone can bring up some missteps.

National Geographic -- now fair and balanced!

Old-N-Feeble
27-Sep-2015, 18:29
I hope it's not a photo of a costume party during that time period. :D

Stepmccarty
27-Sep-2015, 19:00
I hope it's not a photo of a costume party during that time period. :D

I am going to see if I can post a picture here. If it works this is one of the tintypes I found within Sallie's collection. It shows the kid, taken I'd guess in April of 1878 at the South Springs Ranch. If you match this photo with the famous Upham photo you will note that they look alike. This is what Billy looked like when he was dancing with Sallie Chisum at the "bailes" on John Chisum's ranch.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/HaroldEMcCarty1846_zps99b0adbf.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/HaroldEMcCarty1846_zps99b0adbf.jpg.html)

There are a couple of interesting things about this tintype. Billy is obviously closing his lips over his buck teeth. One see his unruly curly/wavy hair and clear blue eyes. He has very little beard and while not a beauty, he is rather good looking in a childish sort of way.

Stepmccarty
27-Sep-2015, 19:08
We have all seen that picture of a youthful Tom Folliard. Here one sees him about as he looked when Pat Garrett killed the poor fellow. Here we see Tom peering out from the shadows, which I think is appropriate. Tom died hard. Sad, but at least now we have a good idea what he actually looked like.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/Newgroupingofcollection054.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/Newgroupingofcollection054.jpg.html)

Stepmccarty
28-Sep-2015, 08:40
When I called the Smithsonian and spoke the the "expert" on old photographs she explained to me that the known image, the Upham picture, is so poor that another cannot be matched to it. They had no interest in working on my photos. I got a little more interest from the Buffalo Bill Museum in Cody, but not much and none from the Autry either. I tried the Getty too, no interest. Getting photos authenticated is more difficult than one might think. I have not only one, but 60! Very little interest.

Old-N-Feeble
28-Sep-2015, 08:52
Call NASA!! :D

Stepmccarty
28-Sep-2015, 08:55
If anyone is reading this, they might be interested in seeing a picture of Sallie Chisum that she kept for most of her life. Here is Sallie probably taken soon after her arrival in New Mexico Territory. Sallie is probably 19 or 20.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Chisum%20Family/Newgroupingofcollection073.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Chisum%20Family/Newgroupingofcollection073.jpg.html)

Stepmccarty
28-Sep-2015, 09:03
Here is Sallie posted with her husband, George William Robert. He was called "Bill". He was a Dane, but was raised in Pritz, Germany. His father was a clerk in a bank there and held that position for 45 years! Sallie and Bill had three children. The first, Reinhardt died either in childbirth or soon thereafter. The other two survived and lived will into mid-20 Century. They were John E. and Fred T. Robert. John was dark like his father and Fred favored his mother. The attached photo is a detail of a 5x7 tintype. Focus could be better.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Chisum%20Family/Newgroupingofcollection078.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Chisum%20Family/Newgroupingofcollection078.jpg.html)

Stepmccarty
28-Sep-2015, 09:11
Here is cute little Fred T. Robert, Sallie's youngest. He was born in 1884. This photo was taken during the Robert family trip to Germany to see Bill Robert's recently widowed mother Agnes Henningsel who was still living in Pritz, Germany. Bill Robert's father's name was John E. Robert Sr.. Sallie's family including her two boys visited Germany in 1886 and '87...maybe '88. The couple eventually divorced after ten years of marriage. Sallie blamed, at least in part, her husband for the family's loss of her beloved South Springs Ranch. She grew to despise him.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Chisum%20Family/LittleFredandothers004.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Chisum%20Family/LittleFredandothers004.jpg.html)

Stepmccarty
28-Sep-2015, 09:31
If anyone out there wants to see a photograph of a specific character involved in the Lincoln County War and the saga of Billy the Kid, just ask and I'll be happy to provide it for you. I have most of the major players and several of the "bad guys". As the reader can see, these tintype photographs are portraits and most are extremely clear. Here I'll attach a photo of John Middleton. He was a major player in the LCW. He was popular. He survived the War, many of Billy's pals did not. Look at this gent's smiling eyes! Sallie owned this picture. I had no idea who he was until I did a lot of study and read physical descriptions. Among other things, Middleton was described as having a huge dark mustache.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/BirdsandnewBillypicks07021.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/BirdsandnewBillypicks07021.jpg.html)

I found two tintypes of Middleton.

Stepmccarty
28-Sep-2015, 09:45
All of the Regulators were young men. It was the style of the time to oil and tease one's hair. We see this in the photos of Middleton and the Kid. As one views these photographs of the Regulators the tragedy of the tale comes to the fore. These were nice looking and well turned out young men! Sad. Here is a tintype of Richard "Dick" Brewer. He was John Tunstall's part time foreman and his neighbor. Brewer probably hired Billy Bonney who was not known as Billy the Kid until a few months before his death. I did not find a picture of Pat Garrett. Sallie knew him, but if she collected his photograph it did not make it to the antique shop where I found the others. Here is Dick Brewer the popular first leader of the Regulators. This was probably taken soon before his death. Here was see him, probably, at 28. He was shot by Andrew "Buckshot" Roberts and killed, one of the first to suffer such a fate.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/Newgroupingofcollection036.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/Newgroupingofcollection036.jpg.html)

Nodda Duma
28-Sep-2015, 10:57
This is very fascinating. Thank you for sharing and good luck with the authentication!

Steven Tribe
28-Sep-2015, 13:37
A wonderful set of tin types.

You mention both Roberts being a Dane and the family visit to Germany in the 80's. This IS possible as part of Southern Jutland became part of the German confederation after the war of 1864, but many people considered themselves as Danish. Half the country was returned to Denmark in 1920 (post WW 1 conditions) but even to-day there is a a very active Danish minority south of the border. Robert(s) is not exactly a Danish surname and perhaps Henningsel is really Henningsen which is a very Danish name.

Stepmccarty
28-Sep-2015, 20:06
This is very fascinating. Thank you for sharing and good luck with the authentication!

To tell you the truth, I am not that interested in getting an official authentication of the tintypes. It has been a nearly 10 year quest and I am sick and tired of all of the rejections. However, I enjoy owning the photos and have had fun reading about and studying the Lincoln County War. I have traveled to Lincoln several times and met some fascinating folks. Most agree that my collection is authentic. I have met several members of the living Chisum family, some of whom owned the collection and recall when their family decided to sell them. They had forgotten the identities of the people depicted. When I ran across the collection in the Glenroe Antique store in Bend, Oregon I recognized many of them. I had already read the books and my wife and I had been to Lincoln and studied the known images. Family legend has it that my side of the McCarty clan are related to the kid. Maybe, maybe not, but when I found his photograph I said, "This is a McCarty".

Stepmccarty
28-Sep-2015, 20:24
A wonderful set of tin types.

You mention both Roberts being a Dane and the family visit to Germany in the 80's. This IS possible as part of Southern Jutland became part of the German confederation after the war of 1864, but many people considered themselves as Danish. Half the country was returned to Denmark in 1920 (post WW 1 conditions) but even to-day there is a a very active Danish minority south of the border. Robert(s) is not exactly a Danish surname and perhaps Henningsel is really Henningsen which is a very Danish name.

I photographed the address on the large post card that shows the Robert family and a dozen of the Chisum staff, but I did not move it to photobook so that I can send it to you. Robert's mother's name may have been Henningsen. Robert eventually divorced Sallie and purchased a share of the XIII ranch which became the XIT ranch located in SW Kansas and NW Oklahoma, not far from Plains, KS. He eventually purchased the entire ranch after his partner died. When he arrived in SW Kansas and the XIII ranch, in about 1890, he brought with him 3000 head of Chisum bred short horned cattle. These were Chisum bred cattle. Cattlemen were trying to improve the old Longhorn steers and replace them with fatter and more docile critters. One sees few Longhorns today, bred only for their historical significance. http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Chisum%20Family/LittleFredandothers019-1.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Chisum%20Family/LittleFredandothers019-1.jpg.html)

Here is William Robert. Sallie kept this photo for the balance of her life. She must have thought he was the cat's meow. He was a handsome devil.

Stepmccarty
28-Sep-2015, 21:23
Trying to think what readers might find interesting. I don't know what the average citizen knows about Billy the Kid or the Lincoln County War. I mean, who cares? Billy the Kid's name is well known, but facts about him are not. In Sallie's time Billy was famous and she collected tintype photographs of him and his Regulator pals. None of these photographs were known until I found them. One of the most important men in the Lincoln County War was a man named Alexander A. McSween. Up until now there has been only one badly retouched photogrhttp://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/HaroldEMcCarty018_zpse602d491.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/HaroldEMcCarty018_zpse602d491.jpg.html)aph of him taken maybe a decade before his untimeliy death. Here is the tintype of him that Sallie collected. I found it on the floor.

Stepmccarty
28-Sep-2015, 21:36
Some of the men involved in the Lincoln County War were genuinely evil. One of them was James J. Dolan. The man who took the pictures of Billy the Kid and his Regulator pals also photographed some of the House Ring. One of them was the ring leader J.J. Dolan. Innocent in appearance. he was far from it. This is an unknown photograph, a tintype of James J. Dolan. http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Dolan%20Men/BTKandGWMorganpics046.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Dolan%20Men/BTKandGWMorganpics046.jpg.html)

Stepmccarty
28-Sep-2015, 21:57
Those who study the Lincoln County War know the names of the Regulators who joined into to avenge the murder of their former boss a young 24 year old Englishmen named John H. Tunstall. The men under the leadership of Dick Brewer, Tunstall's foreman, swore a blood oath to avenge Tunstall's murder. Over the decades only a few photographs of the Regulators have emerged. Sallie Chisum collected photographs of them that I found. Here is Henry Brown. One of the hardest nosed of all of the hard nosed regulators. Note how young he was. He eventually tried to go straight. He became a town marshall, and got married. Then he gathered a few fellows and tried to rob a bank in a neighboring town. He was captured and shot when trying to escape.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/Newgroupingofcollection012.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/Newgroupingofcollection012.jpg.html)

Now, you may say that this man does not match other photographs of him, but here he has just started growing his mustache. This photo matches the image of him standing next to Fred Waite. This is indeed Henry Brown, one of the most dedicated Regulators.