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onnect17
17-Sep-2015, 05:50
After receiving more than one "automated" email message from Paypal and the bank behind the card (Synchrony, I think) in response to a claim, I believe the service is not as reliable as I was expecting. The amount in question was small, only a couple of hundrend dollars, considering the 10k+ I used to "move" every year, with some transactions in the 2k-3k range. I still think the service is convenient so for small amounts ($50 or less, I guess).

The post is just a word of caution so other buyers/sellers be aware the level of protection you may expect is not there.

Oren Grad
17-Sep-2015, 06:10
It's not clear from your post what actually happened: what was the nature of the (attempted) transaction, what was the nature of your claim, what did the automated messages say, whose card are you talking about, what exactly has the outcome been so far?

onnect17
17-Sep-2015, 08:44
The nature was a payment, via Paypal, done with Paypal Extras MasterCard, to a seller located in California. Not a member of the forum, AFAIK. After speaking on the phone to some "Maria" in India several times and explaining the issue, still they are asking me to return the item before filling a claim. I never got the item. Not worth the time anymore.

Here's is a copy of the letter.

139742

djdister
17-Sep-2015, 09:54
Yikes, what is Paypal Extras MasterCard? It sounds like yet another way to extract extra fees and interest out of the already bloated Paypal transaction. If this was a transaction handled under the normal rules of Paypal, you should have filed a claim that said you never received the item, and a letter like the previous should not have shown up. Shoulda, coulda, woulda...

HMG
17-Sep-2015, 11:09
I don't know the other demands on your time, but dropping this rewards a possibly dishonest seller (for all we know, he/she sent it and it's lost in the mail) and rewards incompetent customer service on the part of paypal. I assume you tried just disputing the charge via the credit card.

onnect17
17-Sep-2015, 11:14
The PP rewards card is just another credit card, with near 2% cash back in PP transactions and 10k credit line. I do not know the interest because I do not keep a balance in any card. I used it exclusively for purchases online where PP was accepted. Then PP automatically deducted it from it. Never used it as a mastercard directly.

Followed the established procedure (claim, dispute, etc.) and more than once I received the same letter, like nobody in PP even bothered reading all the info entered in the system. I am not even questioning the sellers honesty, it's PP handling of the issue. So far a bigger waste of time than money.

Old-N-Feeble
17-Sep-2015, 12:28
The nature was a payment, via Paypal, done with Paypal Extras MasterCard, to a seller located in California. Not a member of the forum, AFAIK. After speaking on the phone to some "Maria" in India several times and explaining the issue, still they are asking me to return the item before filling a claim. I never got the item. Not worth the time anymore.

Here's is a copy of the letter.

139742

I had a similar issue with a Chinese-based company very recently. Even though I had the tracking number with SIGNED delivery to one of their USA warehouses, PayPal couldn't confirm the item was returned because the seller's registered PayPal address is in China... despite the fact they ship to USA from USA warehouses. I finally got my refund but it was a friggin' mess.

B.S.Kumar
18-Sep-2015, 09:44
Interestingly, this bank uses a P.O. Box address...

Kumar

DonJ
18-Sep-2015, 10:13
The nature was a payment, via Paypal, done with Paypal Extras MasterCard, to a seller located in California. Not a member of the forum, AFAIK. After speaking on the phone to some "Maria" in India several times and explaining the issue, still they are asking me to return the item before filling a claim. I never got the item. Not worth the time anymore.

Here's is a copy of the letter.

139742

Seems clear from the letter that your problem is with the issuer of the card (i.e. Synchrony Bank), not with PayPal. And if you never got the item, the procedure would have been to file a "Not received" case directly with PayPal, not with your credit card issuer. I can assure you that they wouldn't be sending you letters telling you to send the nonexistent item back.

But if a few hundred dollars is "not worth the time anymore", you don't really care about that, right?

pdh
18-Sep-2015, 10:13
a few minutes googling suggests synchrony is legit company (as much as any bank these days is legit, I mean) and frequently uses PO Box numbers for contact by ordinary mail.

onnect17
18-Sep-2015, 13:47
Seems clear from the letter that your problem is with the issuer of the card (i.e. Synchrony Bank), not with PayPal. And if you never got the item, the procedure would have been to file a "Not received" case directly with PayPal, not with your credit card issuer. I can assure you that they wouldn't be sending you letters telling you to send the nonexistent item back.

But if a few hundred dollars is "not worth the time anymore", you don't really care about that, right?

PP only uses the bank to follow financial regulations. Regarding support is pretty much the same venue. Even to access the card online statements you will need to log in in paypal. And yes, I got the same "canned" letters/emails from PP.

The only part I am NOT considering a waste of time is alerting the members of the forum to be cautious. The amount related to this transaction in particular was small, so in some strange way I feel lucky. In my case, I closed the account, but that is totally a personal decision.

Randy Moe
18-Sep-2015, 14:08
Your experience is not my experience.

onnect17
18-Sep-2015, 14:33
I am glad to know that and I hope it never happen to anybody, specially to the forum members. It was also my experience for many years. I moved around 50-60k through in the past 10 years without an issue until now. Still I think the service is effective for small transactions, where the convenience outweighs the risk.

Jac@stafford.net
18-Sep-2015, 16:44
When I sell I post that Chinese buyers should works through a broker. There is such a clearing facility for Chinese clients, and it has a USA address near an airport. The agency pays top-buck, and when the deal is made, it is done. They presume any risk. It's a heavy hitter. Another is in Ohio, a middle-middle-man thing. Works for me.
.

koh303
18-Sep-2015, 17:19
You bought something, did not like it and want to send it back for a refund, and you are upset that your credit card provider is forcing you to send it back before they give you a charge back? In most cases there is an imediate conditional credit. One of the conditions, is that you provide proof that you sent, or tried to send something back.

Oren Grad
18-Sep-2015, 17:27
You bought something, did not like it and want to send it back for a refund, and you are upset that your credit card provider is forcing you to send it back before they give you a charge back? In most cases there is an imediate conditional credit. One of the conditions, is that you provide proof that you sent, or tried to send something back.

His problem, clearly stated earlier in the thread, is that he never received the item.

onnect17
18-Sep-2015, 18:03
Correct. That's the whole point. I never received the item and is more than well documented in PP system through multiples phone calls and emails.

B.S.Kumar
18-Sep-2015, 18:06
a few minutes googling suggests synchrony is legit company (as much as any bank these days is legit, I mean) and frequently uses PO Box numbers for contact by ordinary mail.

I didn't mean to say they weren't legitimate. It seems ironic that they themselves use a PO Box, while asking customers to use physical addresses.

Kumar

koh303
18-Sep-2015, 18:23
Seems clear from the letter that your problem is with the issuer of the card (i.e. Synchrony Bank), not with PayPal. And if you never got the item, the procedure would have been to file a "Not received" case directly with PayPal, not with your credit card issuer. I can assure you that they wouldn't be sending you letters telling you to send the nonexistent item back.

But if a few hundred dollars is "not worth the time anymore", you don't really care about that, right?

I am not sure why the OP has not done exactly that.
Did the OP purchase the item through paypal or other buying platform and used his paypal mastercard as form as payment? If so, why not file a claim on that platform? A chargeback claim would be relevant if that did not work.

onnect17
18-Sep-2015, 20:03
I am not sure why the OP has not done exactly that.
Did the OP purchase the item through paypal or other buying platform and used his paypal mastercard as form as payment? If so, why not file a claim on that platform? A chargeback claim would be relevant if that did not work.

It was done and all I received was the same "canned" letters revealing they did not even bother reading the claim documentation. Again, to me is more important to let the forum know to be cautious than the $200 bucks itself. I can not even pay parking in Logan for a week with that amount. PP and the bank were making more than that every year with my business.

HMG
18-Sep-2015, 20:27
It was done and all I received was the same "canned" letters revealing they did not even bother reading the claim documentation. Again, to me is more important to let the forum know to be cautious than the $200 bucks itself. I can not even pay parking in Logan for a week with that amount. PP and the bank were making more than that every year with my business.

Which is appreciated.

koh303
18-Sep-2015, 23:17
It was done and all I received was the same "canned" letters revealing they did not even bother reading the claim documentation. Again, to me is more important to let the forum know to be cautious than the $200 bucks itself. I can not even pay parking in Logan for a week with that amount. PP and the bank were making more than that every year with my business.

you filed a INR (item not received) with paypal and they ignored it?
Did the tracking show it was delivered?
Did you buy this on Ebay?

Neither Ebay nor paypal send out letter for this type of issue, so i am not sure we are all talking about the same thing.

onnect17
19-Sep-2015, 07:19
you filed a INR (item not received) with paypal and they ignored it?
Did the tracking show it was delivered?
Did you buy this on Ebay?

Neither Ebay nor paypal send out letter for this type of issue, so i am not sure we are all talking about the same thing.


I am sure what I am talking about. I do not know if you do.

eBay has nothing to do with this, even if PP mentioned some kind of listing. And yes, I received multiple times the same "canned" response, after explaining in every occasion I never got the item. Just replace the word ==SOMEONE== with different names. Here's the content:



After this dispute was escalated, we reviewed the information you and the seller provided.

To be eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection, the item you receive must be significantly not as described. We found that the seller's listing accurately described the item.

Significantly not as described items include the following:

• A completely different item.
Example: You purchased a book and received a DVD or an empty box.
• An item's condition is not described accurately.
Example: The listing said the item was new but the item was used.
• An item that is described as authentic, but is not authentic.
• An item that is missing major parts or features.
• An item that was damaged during shipment.

If an item is materially similar to the seller's description, we do not consider it to be significantly not as described.

Here are some examples:

• The item has a defect but the defect was accurately described by the seller.
• The item was properly described, but you didn't want the item after you received it.
• The item was properly described, but the item did not meet your expectations.
• The item has minor scratches, but the item was listed as being in used condition.

Although this claim is closed, we encourage you to communicate with the seller to resolve the problem. To learn more about PayPal Purchase Protection, click 'Legal Agreements' at the bottom of any PayPal page, and then click 'PayPal User Agreement.'

Thank you for your patience and cooperation.

Sincerely,
==SOMEONE==
Protection Services

neil poulsen
19-Sep-2015, 08:15
What I find interesting, is that Symphony is requesting that you return the item with tracking and delivery confirmation; yet, it appears that this was not done by the seller. (Else, the seller would have sent copies of the delivery confirmation.) Either that, or the seller is trying to bluster through a lost shipment.

It sounds like part of the problem may be that Symphony doesn't adhere to the same seller requirements as PayPal. After a lengthy conversation with PayPal some time ago, PayPal would require seeing a signature from the buyer to back up a seller in such a case.

Frankly, because of the nature of shipping, being able to obtain a signature, etc., I stay away from non-European and non-USA transactions.

I appreciate your warning.

koh303
19-Sep-2015, 11:31
Looks like you filed a SNAD dispute instead of an INR. If thats the case, that really is your fault, not theirs.
Have you filed a INR in the first place, it would have been the sellers burden to prove you actually got the order by use of a tracking number, signature confirmation etc. If there was none, they would have refunded you on the spot.
If you filed a SNAD for a an INR, you loose, as simple as that.

onnect17
19-Sep-2015, 12:32
So it's now my fault, right?

I called PP support and explained the situation and followed their recommendations. I spoke to several reps and if what you are saying is correct, why any of them fixed the ticket on the spot?

I am very glad to hear you are very confident in the service. Good for you. Perhaps you own a business and rely heavily as a seller on their service. Who knows. In any case this warning is intended to casual users here in the forum.

AuditorOne
19-Sep-2015, 14:57
Are you guys being paid by Paypal to frustrate people who try to provide a heads up on this forum?

This gentleman has been very calm and straightforward and still everyone tells him it is his fault.

Obviously I will be sure to keep my mouth shut the next time I run into questionable activity by the great and honorable Paypal. :)

HMG
19-Sep-2015, 15:04
Looks like you filed a SNAD dispute instead of an INR. If thats the case, that really is your fault, not theirs.
Have you filed a INR in the first place, it would have been the sellers burden to prove you actually got the order by use of a tracking number, signature confirmation etc. If there was none, they would have refunded you on the spot.
If you filed a SNAD for a an INR, you loose, as simple as that.

So you get one - and only one - shot at resolution? Even IF (and I don't know whether he did or did not) the OP initiated the wrong claim at first, he's followed up multiple time with their customer service and is in a vendor induced infinite loop.

Oren Grad
19-Sep-2015, 15:55
The report was made in good faith and has now been discussed thoroughly.

Thank you, onnect17.