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David Karp
14-Sep-2015, 09:40
Came across this today. Thought it was interesting. From the press release:

"HARMAN technology, manufacturers of the famous ILFORD Photo range of Monochrome Photographic products, have been purchased by Pemberstone Ventures Ltd for an undisclosed amount."

Full press release: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/pressroom/article.asp?n=211

diversey
14-Sep-2015, 09:58
Is this good or bad? Can anybody with investing experience explain it to us?

gemsinger
14-Sep-2015, 10:01
My advice, stock up on Ilford film.

bob carnie
14-Sep-2015, 10:18
My gut tells me wait three years then stock up the moment the price is about to jump..

I have been worried about this for a very long time, the five guys running it were old school, now the reins may change.


My advice, stock up on Ilford film.

David Karp
14-Sep-2015, 10:21
Article in the British Journal of Photography: http://www.bjp-online.com/2015/09/harman-ilford-film-purchased-pemberstone

From the article:

"Whiles Pemberstone’s plans for the storied photographic company remain to be seen, their comments suggest that the famous brand will continue to endure for the time being."

Some investment firms buy with the eye to eventually taking a company apart and selling it by bits or selling off valuable assets and dumping the rest. I guess in this case it depends on what there is of Harman that could be sold off by bits or if there is anything valuable to sell separate from the company as a whole. If I recall correctly from the discussions during the Ilford bankruptcy era, they rent the factory, or at least the land. It looks like Pemberton has a variety of companies in its portfolio. Hard to find what the firm's history is on what happens to its purchases from a quick web search.

David Karp
14-Sep-2015, 10:29
Funny thing, I purchased a bunch of 100 sheet boxes of 4x5 Arista 400 from Freestyle when Ilford went into bankruptcy and froze them. (This was repackaged HP5+.) A friend from Texas once sent me a box of HP5+ as well. I just finished off my stash this summer. As a result, I have never purchased a sheet of 4x5 from Harman! I have purchased 5x7 and 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 film from them though.

Jac@stafford.net
14-Sep-2015, 10:38
I don't like the looks of the company. It incorporated under its current name within the past three years, and while the top Director seems stable under one appointment to Bdo LLP (but no longer), the rest of his activity is only about two years old and largely within related companies most at the same address; his next under (an accountant) has hopped through appointments like crazy. They don't have much cash, but supposedly has assets greater than liabilities.

JChrome
14-Sep-2015, 10:45
Is this good or bad? Can anybody with investing experience explain it to us?

Impossible to tell.

I think we'll probably be fine though. The only doom and gloom scenario is if the new owners dumped all of the assets into the market to break it up and sell it. But who wants to buy film manufacturing equipment?

More likely is the PE firm thinks that Ilford is a good investment and that they can run it better and make more money. Usually these firms will cut out less profitable products and focus on the main ones that actually make money.

I don't think it's a great thing for us unless they want to introduce more products into the market, which they will if there's money to be made. But I doubt it.

Randy Moe
14-Sep-2015, 10:50
This is the end... (https://youtu.be/JSUIQgEVDM4)

Richard Strauss (https://youtu.be/3rzDXNQxjHs)

David Karp
14-Sep-2015, 11:03
Pemberstone is involved in Real Estate too.

Of couse, we are all just speculating. One track that investment companies sometimes follow is to do what JChrome said. It may depend on what they paid for the company. If the investor thinks that money can be made without lots of investment, we may see Harman continue as is for as long as it is profitable to do so, without any new product development or other "unnecessary" costs. This might not be a bad thing, as the Ilford black and white products are very good.

Or it could be the end.

All we can do is buy Harman product.

AuditorOne
14-Sep-2015, 11:05
Well, it is kind of hard to say how this will affect Ilford and their film business at this point. If you read the official notice on the Ilford site they still insist that they are still fully committed to all aspects of the monochrome film and paper business.

The only thing you can say for certain is that the people who did own the business a week ago do not own it now. It is possible that Ilford needed more capital to grow their business and Pemberstone was the best way to get that capital and additional business support. It is also possible that Pemberstone made a very good offer to the employee group who had purchased Ilford and they decided it was time to cash in on their investment.

The goal of all good businesses is to make money and that is a good thing. Pemberstone is a private investment group whose stated purpose is to provide support in order to earn a return on their investments. In my humble opinion, that means that as long as Ilford remains profitable, and provides adequate return on their investment, then Pembroke will likely be happy. However, if it turns out that Ilford is more profitable to them by breaking up the business and reselling it, then that is what they will do. Since they are a private firm it is not clear what their normal process with purchased corporate business is. Based merely on their current holdings it seems that they purchase good, profitable businesses and then hold them. But I really don't have enough information about the company to know for certain.

Personally I hope that the film business remains profitable for Ilford...and Pemberstone.

Pierre 2
14-Sep-2015, 12:48
Hum... Film business in photography application may not be growing but "non-photography" film business may see a growing market for various applications such as battery manufacturing, solar cell etc... Experience of Harman Technology could prove to be quite valuable in this "more modern" perspective.

HMG
14-Sep-2015, 14:06
These companies typically make money by selling off assets, increasing ROI, "flipping" the company, or going public. In any case, they may not want to be long-term owners.

In the first case, there's probably not much they could do as Harman is overwhelmingly analog film and paper. AFAIK, the only exception is their high-end ink jet paper. They might feel that the production capability and intellectual property could be sold to another film firm (Foma? Lucky?), but doubtful. But maybe license some of their film technology (for example, prior "non + versions of FP4 and HP5).

In the second case, options could run the gamut:

reducing costs through operational efficiency (lay-offs) or cutting back R&D
increasing utilization by producing other companies film
increasing prices


One thing these firms generally do not do is pour more money into their investment. As to this news, while not necessarily bad, it probably is.

Sal Santamaura
14-Sep-2015, 15:28
In a bit of coincidentally timed good news, Adox announced today that it has purchased its own coating line and no longer needs to rely on Inoviscoat to make film/paper:


http://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-acquires-ilfords-medium-scale-coating-line/

JChrome
14-Sep-2015, 17:08
In the second case, options could run the gamut:

reducing costs through operational efficiency (lay-offs) or cutting back R&D
increasing utilization by producing other companies film
increasing prices




I don't think Harmann has much of a budget for R&D. When was the last time they came out with a new film?

But the other items sound likely.

koh303
14-Sep-2015, 17:21
My gut tells me wait three years then stock up the moment the price is about to jump..

I have been worried about this for a very long time, the five guys running it were old school, now the reins may change.

As my last post was deleted, i will re comment on this with different wording in hopes this one is not liable to get struck down.

The photo industry is littered with "old school" type people. They are for the most part inflexible, arrogant and ignorant. Phasing them out with people who are more aware of google cannot be a bad thing, the sooner the better.

Younger blood has little or no chance to start up or grow in the current environment, unless they behave exactly like the above mentioned and completely ignore the information highway (how dated is that term...). This is sad because it ultimately leads to demise of many a company who knew it all better since forever, because "trust me son, i have been in this business for more then 35 years" type of rhetoric.

in a minorly related way, this is also true about the higher education world, especially as it is related to photography departments.

Diversity cannot be a bad thing in either of these highly homogeneous fields.

jp
14-Sep-2015, 17:25
In a bit of coincidentally timed good news, Adox announced today that it has purchased its own coating line and no longer needs to rely on Inoviscoat to make film/paper:


http://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-acquires-ilfords-medium-scale-coating-line/

An Ilford coating line none the less!

I'd anticipate a blend of "operational efficiency", producing other products, and adjusting prices. They may think they can charge as much as Kodak for LF film, let's hope not.

Oren Grad
14-Sep-2015, 17:34
An Ilford coating line none the less!

The other Ilford, it would appear - the Adox item says Marly, Switzerland, not Mobberley.

Randy Moe
14-Sep-2015, 18:02
As my last post was deleted, i will re comment on this with different wording in hopes this one is not liable to get struck down.

The photo industry is littered with "old school" type people. They are for the most part inflexible, arrogant and ignorant. Phasing them out with people who are more aware of google cannot be a bad thing, the sooner the better.

Younger blood has little or no chance to start up or grow in the current environment, unless they behave exactly like the above mentioned and completely ignore the information highway (how dated is that term...). This is sad because it ultimately leads to demise of many a company who knew it all better since forever, because "trust me son, i have been in this business for more then 35 years" type of rhetoric.

in a minorly related way, this is also true about the higher education world, especially as it is related to photography departments.

Diversity cannot be a bad thing in either of these highly homogeneous fields.

The only people who are fully immersed in Internet technology are just getting out of High School, everybody else is playing catchup and never will.

These HS grads will show us all new tricks in the next 40 years.

Things will get interesting.

Roger Cole
14-Sep-2015, 21:28
An Ilford coating line none the less!

I'd anticipate a blend of "operational efficiency", producing other products, and adjusting prices. They may think they can charge as much as Kodak for LF film, let's hope not.

If they think that they will be wrong, at lest for me.

LabRat
14-Sep-2015, 21:52
The news might not be entirely bad... At least one good sign the company is healthy, is that it is being sold, (which means that the books have been balanced, and an attractive investment) rather than filing for bankruptcy (or re-organization)... Or a complete shut-down...

Granted, ours is a niche market, but without a lot of high growth potential... But with a lot of big businesses these days, they have been expanding into smaller markets and have lowered their expectations, relying on smaller income streams (but a lot of them)...

Let's wait and see what happens... (Not that we have much choice...)

Steve K

John Kasaian
14-Sep-2015, 23:27
We'll just have to wait and see.
Ilford makes a lot of classic, as well as unique products which I enjoy using.

IanG
15-Sep-2015, 00:45
The other Ilford, it would appear - the Adox item says Marly, Switzerland, not Mobberley.

Yes the old Tellko factory bought by Ciba who later also bought Ilford. so it's from the Cibachrome/Ilfochrome and Galerie Inkjet coating plant.

The Ilford site at Mobberly is just too large for them nowwhich brings high overheads. When it was modernised in the 1980's there was plenty of room for expansion, ground space space allocated for a new colour coating building they had planned to start making C41 & E6 films and started selling re-badged Sakura films here in the UK, I still have a roll of 35mm Ilfochrome E6 film somewhere..

Harman (Ilford) have been planning for sometime to reduce their footprint, this will significantly reduce their business rates (which are high in the UK)and heating costs and allow greater profitability.

Ian

Michael E
15-Sep-2015, 05:20
In the last years, it all came down to adapting to a shrinking market. Ilford is a big player in that small market. If they manage to produce efficiently on a small scale, they can be successful in the long run. Kodak struggled with that, Ilford might have more experience - b/w has become a niche market long ago. Let's hope Ilford and their products will stay with us for a long time. Let's not forget that the only way to keep them in business is buying their products. Lamenting about the loss has never kept a company afloat.

Curt
15-Sep-2015, 13:30
Suggestion: FP4 in all sizes from Minox to 20x24 sheet film. One paper, MGFB Classic in 8x10 to 20x24. End of list.

John Kasaian
15-Sep-2015, 13:57
Not for me! Add HP-5+, Ortho Plus, Galerie graded, and Postcard paper to that list!

Andrew O'Neill
15-Sep-2015, 14:05
In 2005, I panicked and stocked up my freezer on HP5+ (I've worked my way through about half of that supply). I'm not going to panic this time. Hopefully we won't see a huge increase in film price like we have seen with Kodak/Alaris.

Len Middleton
15-Sep-2015, 15:01
Interesting that no one mentioned the annual ULF special offering.

I certainly hope that has been profitable for them...

Sal Santamaura
15-Sep-2015, 16:38
Interesting that no one mentioned the annual ULF special offering.

I certainly hope that has been profitable for them...Repeated reports have claimed that, at best, it's been break-even. Done as an accommodation to customers. I'll be very interested to see if the new "private equity" owners think that's a good idea.

David Karp
15-Sep-2015, 16:50
I sure hope so. Or I will have to start cutting down 8x10 to WP!

Andrew O'Neill
15-Sep-2015, 21:22
Posted over at Apug by Harman Technology:

Statement from Harman Technology Ltd

Apologies for joining the discussion so late, yesterday was a little hectic...

I just wanted to post a something on here as I know Simon is a regular contributor and many will be expecting a response. Firstly I have to tell you that Simon exited the business when it was sold. Simon may well continue to be an APUG contributor in a personal capacity however I don't know that for sure.

Many of you have already read the press release about the sale of the business. I don't really have anything more to add on that front, other that to say it's definitely business as usual. This is an exciting time for all involved in the business, I've worked for Harman / Ilford for 28 years and this is yet another chapter in our story !

Harman will continue to support APUG and my Technical services team (David, Sue and Myself) will monitor and contribute to APUG. I have set up a "Harman Tech Service" APUG member which we will share between us.

Our primary technical support will continue to be via the "Contact Us" section of the Ilford Photo website.

Neil

Neil Hibbs

Len Middleton
16-Sep-2015, 03:11
I sure hope so. Or I will have to start cutting down 8x10 to WP!

David,

I have the opposite problem in that some people get some 8x20 film and want to cut it in half to get 8x10.

Just have to watch and see...

Len

AuditorOne
16-Sep-2015, 10:35
Speaking of ULF runs, my film from the most recent order should be arriving shortly. :)

Andrew O'Neill
17-Sep-2015, 21:32
https://youtu.be/vhW77dN94S0

ADOX ACQUIRES ILFORDīS MEDIUM SCALE COATING LINE

Randy Moe
17-Sep-2015, 22:48
Yep, a factory.

My father's ideal vacation was touring every major factory from the Mississippi east with family starting in the 50's. I was inside each factory right with him. Then he built better new factories in the 60's/70's. I spent my working life in 2 Fortune 500 factory test laboratories. Couldn't join him in the business because of nepotism clauses.

So it goes.

IanG
18-Sep-2015, 01:08
https://youtu.be/vhW77dN94S0

ADOX ACQUIRES ILFORDīS MEDIUM SCALE COATING LINE


An entirely separate company based in Marly, Switzerland, formerly the Tellko factory and bought by Ciba who much later also bought Ilford in the UK. Although the Marly factory also used the Ilford name it made different products the Ciba/Ilfochrome range and Galerie Inkjet papers. The two companies worked together in terms of research and mareting until 2005 when Ilford in the UK was bought by its directors and became Harman Technology after a short spell in voluntary administration as a protective measure.

Ilford Imaging in Switzerland changed hands once or twice but ultimately with the collapse of the E6 market there was no demand for Ilfochrome (Cibachrome).

Adox are leasing part of the Marly site and this coating machine will operate where it was assembled. It's only 52cm coating width and wasn't the largest coating line at Marly but it will give Adox greater flexibility as production runs can be smaller and more economic than at present.

Ian

Drew Bedo
18-Sep-2015, 05:11
Is there a forum here that discusses cooking photosensitive emulsions at home?

Michael R
18-Sep-2015, 14:31
Not specifically, but there is a lot of info (and some discussions) about emulsion making/coating on APUG, much of it courtesy of former Kodak emulsion engineer Ron Mowrey. He's also written an excellent book (and is working on another) and sometimes gives courses at GEH. Denise Ross is another active resource. Actually your question is timely since she has just released her book (announced here and on APUG).

Randy Moe
18-Sep-2015, 17:18
Is there a forum here that discusses cooking photosensitive emulsions at home?

no, but have you gone to the source? http://www.thelightfarm.com/

Drew Wiley
21-Sep-2015, 09:52
Buyouts always scare the hell out of me, especially if new people pulling the strings are bean counters, business school types, or not even vetted from the same kind of industry. But only time will tell.

Jac@stafford.net
21-Sep-2015, 11:41
Buyouts always scare the hell out of me, especially if new people pulling the strings are bean counters

And that's what the Directors are in this case.

Drew Wiley
21-Sep-2015, 16:09
If bean-counters invested in a hot dog stand, the first thing they'd do is cut the budget for mustard and relish in order to reduce overhead. Buns would go next; after that, they'd try to sell the hot dogs raw over the internet. It's all about efficiency. And what they seem to do so very well is bankrupt businesses with profound efficiency. There are exceptions. I hope this is one of them.

dsphotog
21-Sep-2015, 22:00
I didn't even know it was for sale, maybe if we all chip in.....

sanking
22-Sep-2015, 09:12
I see that Simon is out. Would he be the mustard and relish, or the bun?

Sandy




If bean-counters invested in a hot dog stand, the first thing they'd do is cut the budget for mustard and relish in order to reduce overhead. Buns would go next; after that, they'd try to sell the hot dogs raw over the internet. It's all about efficiency. And what they seem to do so very well is bankrupt businesses with profound efficiency. There are exceptions. I hope this is one of them.

HMG
22-Sep-2015, 10:06
If bean-counters invested in a hot dog stand, the first thing they'd do is cut the budget for mustard and relish in order to reduce overhead. Buns would go next; after that, they'd try to sell the hot dogs raw over the internet. It's all about efficiency. And what they seem to do so very well is bankrupt businesses with profound efficiency. There are exceptions. I hope this is one of them.


But they would take some of those savings and spend it on "branding".

Tobias Key
22-Sep-2015, 10:38
There was a planning application for the Ilford site 18 months ago

http://www.knutsfordguardian.co.uk/news/10935755.Plans_for_375_homes_on_Ilford_s_site_in_Mobberley_submitted_to_council/

375 homes at Ģ300,000 (and possibly more) is a big chunk of cash. My fear is new people will see the land as worth more than the factory and sneakily decide to build more houses instead of a new factory, and get a nice big pay out. Knowing how the UK is obsessed with making a quick buck out of property I might bet on it.

Sal Santamaura
22-Sep-2015, 11:37
...My fear is new people will see the land as worth more than the factory and sneakily decide to build more houses instead of a new factory, and get a nice big pay out. Knowing how the UK is obsessed with making a quick buck out of property I might bet on it.The (rejected, but under appeal) planning application was by the site's owner, LPC Living, not HARMAN. HARMAN is a tenant with ten years remaining on its 20-year lease.

If the central government decides in favor of development when it rules on that appeal next year, LPC Living will pay all HARMAN's "right-sized" facility construction and relocation costs. That has been part of the planning application to Cheshire East Council since initial submission last year. Should the appeal be denied next year, there's nothing to prevent HARMAN's new owners from continuing to operate the company for another (then) nine years.

Unless everyone stops buying Ilford film, paper and chemicals.

IanG
22-Sep-2015, 13:47
The truth is some of Ilfords directors were near or past retirement age and had borrowed to buy the company which had been in voluntary administration, a protective measure to avoid potentially going bankrupt.

The current (and newish) Managing Director was the Operations Director at the time of the buy-out so the guy at the top is not a bean counter, and it's the same finance director as 10 years ago. That's a very positive, also the company that's bought them is not London based and most likely better suited to being in tune with Ilford / Harman's long time future.

Sal's on the ball with the local issues regarding planning etc, I'd add though that if the housing development isn't passed then the site could be redeveloped for more intensive industrial use and Pemberstone's operate in that market.

The Directors who've left were the ex MD and then sales and marketing but Ilford/Harman have a very good supply chain, retailers get next day deliveries in the UK, I can't speak for other countries.

We, and by that I mean members here, need companies like Ilford, but they need new customers and it's a symbiotic relationship. If we want film and paper we need to be part of introducing younger people to analog photography.

Ian

plaubel
15-Oct-2015, 13:50
Adox announced today that it has purchased its own coating line

Between the lines, I only can read: he boughts a coating line.
The main part, for cooking and heating, is missing.

For me, it looks like another advertising gag like " I produce film", or "let's make some Poly Warmtone Paper".

Sal Santamaura
15-Oct-2015, 14:10
Between the lines, I only can read: he boughts a coating line.
The main part, for cooking and heating, is missing...Mirko never said the emulsion would be made in Marly. In fact, he detailed the practicalities of moving from kettles to coater and back to Germany here:


http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1953788466


...For me, it looks like another advertising gag like " I produce film", or "let's make some Poly Warmtone Paper".First, ADOX has (via Inoviscoat) produced and sold film. Second, it never promised revived Polywarmtone by a specific date. Why the negative attitude? Are you affiliated with or do you champion one of ADOX's competitors?

plaubel
19-Oct-2015, 00:39
Why the negative attitude?

I am still "waiting" for the announced "products" of Adox, that's it.
And I would describe myself as critical or sceptical, not as negative.



Ritchie

Sal Santamaura
19-Oct-2015, 07:58
I am still "waiting" for the announced "products" of Adox...Why put quotation marks around those words? Quite a few new Adox products have been announced and then produced/sold. Use of quotation marks, at least in American English, implies you don't actually believe that the words apply, which is an unjustified implication.


...And I would describe myself as critical or sceptical, not as negative...Your quotation mark implication is most clearly negative.

Why not respond to the specific comments I included in post #50 rather than perpetuate negativity?

plaubel
19-Oct-2015, 18:24
quotation marks, at least in American English, implies you don't actually believe that the words apply.

Then I've done right, but thanks for the lesson.

""Why not respond to the specific comments I included in post #50 rather than perpetuate negativity?""


Sal,
I just wrote my little opinion, and instead keeping some tolerance, or maybe ignorance, I feel stamped as a stupid student from your "first,second, here is a lesson" style, and it seems to me, that you tried to give my words a special drive.

I know this style from other forums, especially here in germany,
and for me , this is no base for a good discussion.
But after asking me twice, I have to answer now, right?


I live in germany, nearby Berlin.
One can say, here I am a neighbour of Adox GmbH. Same district.
Some Kilometers only, I can hear the birds whisteling...

On the other side, I am interested in developments of photographic companies, so I have done some research last years.
This is easy in germany, because if you own a "GmbH", it is your duty by law to present your bilance each year.
You can go to the responsible court, or you can use this side for doing a research : https://www.bundesanzeiger.de/ebanzwww/wexsservlet

By reading and understanding of all bilances ( no problem at all, I have had my own ( non photogr.)GmbH some years ago), you can learn a lot about development, financial worth, behaviour, attitude and more of the companies you are interested in. Some information from left and right,here and there, and an image is completed.
Impex is a "GmbH", so I have had an intensive look at this stuff. This research took some ours..
The owner's official words didn't agree with this sites, so yes, I generally use to be critical.
There is no need to explain more in this thread, I am not interested in blaming Adox here.

It is right, that I got a lot of informations about the history of Ilford Mobberly and the highly High Tech company Ciba (Geigy!) Marly, this really excellent machine, her name and her function and also, how to run coating machines, and how to cook emulsion and how much you have to cook, if you are interested in good quality.
I do learn every day more and more, about historical and todays situations.

For sure, giving me an announcement plus one picture of half a machine, with three people looking at this machine, this will leave me sceptically.

I don't cared about Adox/Impex the last year or so, thistime I am not interested, but if I am right, they own this other machines, which produce nothing, and people like Ferrania tell year over year, that they will produce film, so call it negative or not, but I believe this all later, maybe, but not thistime.

I am not interested in championing anyone.
Sal, have you ever read something like this out of my hand here??
Why do you took party so intensively?

I am just interested in products ( and cameras and lenses) which I can afford and enjoy as a photographing customer, and in good informations, you can say in truth.

Adox doesn't produce anything, not film, not paper, not Rodinal .
Par example, Innoviscoat, Tetenal, do this producing job.
Adox sells film and some more to you, and I guess, this is ok.

And now, they bought some machine parts, nothing else.
Maybe I'm wrong, but this is my truth.

You don't agree with me, Sal, so based on some facts -

what is your truth?

Sal Santamaura
20-Oct-2015, 10:09
...I just wrote my little opinion, and instead keeping some tolerance, or maybe ignorance, I feel stamped as a stupid student from your "first,second, here is a lesson" style, and it seems to me, that you tried to give my words a special drive...You misinterpreted my posts. I persisted in questioning you because there was a possibility that, with English not being your first language, you might not have understood the subtleties involved. You apparently did understand them, which I greatly admire. If only my sub-kindergarten Deutsch were one tenth as good. :)


...On the other side, I am interested in developments of photographic companies, so I have done some research last years...Impex is a "GmbH", so I have had an intensive look at this stuff. This research took some ours..
The owner's official words didn't agree with this sites, so yes, I generally use to be critical.
There is no need to explain more in this thread, I am not interested in blaming Adox here...I have read all Mirko's posts at APUG with interest. As I read all of HARMAN technology Ltd.'s posts. It seems to me that, where HARMAN's previous spokesperson Simon Galley was completely honest in what he posted, many times he would ignore questions/comments that, if honestly responded to, would have revealed just how small the market for Ilford-branded silver halide products was during the last decade of his (and the other parters') ownership. In contrast, Mirko's posts are more open about the money involved with this analog photo business today. He seems not to promise things (like Polywarmtone) on any specific deadline or at a particular price point. I see that as controlling customer expectations.


...It is right, that I got a lot of informations about...Marly, this really excellent machine, her name and her function and also, how to run coating machines, and how to cook emulsion and how much you have to cook, if you are interested in good quality....For sure, giving me an announcement plus one picture of half a machine, with three people looking at this machine, this will leave me sceptically.

I don't cared about Adox/Impex the last year or so, thistime I am not interested, but if I am right, they own this other machines, which produce nothing, and people like Ferrania tell year over year, that they will produce film, so call it negative or not, but I believe this all later, maybe, but not thistime...'If all goes well' conditions Mirko's estimate of when actual product will be coated at Marly. He has also explained on APUG why Pan 400 is not viable at today's market prices.


...have you ever read something like this out of my hand here?? Why do you took party so intensively?...Your posts are reminiscent of others, both here and at APUG, that constantly questioned the viability and motives of HARMAN. In the age of digital photography, when potential new silver gelatin product users learn much of what they know via Internet forums, I considered it important to question those negative posts so readers didn't accept them as fact. HARMAN has given us ten years of excellent products after the bankruptcy and, with luck, will continue doing so for at least another ten years. Adox has given us five years of MCC paper after Agfaphoto also went bankrupt. I'd like to see continued availability of MCC paper too, with its market not degraded as a result of new users being influenced by negative Internet forum posts.


...I am just interested in products ( and cameras and lenses) which I can afford and enjoy as a photographing customer, and in good informations, you can say in truth...That's my only interest too. I have no connection with the photographic industry except as a customer. The only exception was one year working part time in a camera shop during college more than 43 years ago. :)


...Adox doesn't produce anything, not film, not paper, not Rodinal.
Par example, Innoviscoat, Tetenal, do this producing job.
Adox sells film and some more to you, and I guess, this is ok...This is another case where the subtlety of language is important.

I am a retired engineer from a non-photographic industry. I've always greatly disliked outsourcing and been a huge fan of vertical integration. However, the world doesn't agree with me, and hasn't for some time. To "produce" a product no longer means owning/controlling the means of manufacture. Adox, in currently accepted use of the word, does indeed "produce" MCC paper and Rodinal developer. Outsourcing the actual manufacture of those products is the only way they can exist given market prices and, most likely, available capital resources.


...And now, they bought some machine parts, nothing else.
Maybe I'm wrong, but this is my truth...what is your truth?My "truths" are these:


Adox did indeed purchase the coating line in Marly
Adox has stated an intention to use that coating line for making paper and some film
Adox has not promised it would offer products from the Marly line by any specific date
Adox has stated it would need to move emulsion from Germany to Marly for coating and coated master rolls back to Germany for finishing
Negative posts questioning the veracity of Adox without evidence that it's lying can only hurt the chances it will succeed and continue making Adox-branded products available.

Duolab123
3-Nov-2015, 21:42
The other Ilford, it would appear - the Adox item says Marly, Switzerland, not Mobberley.

I think this was the line that Ciba Geigy used to develop Cibachrome

Duolab123
3-Nov-2015, 21:51
Not for me! Add HP-5+, Ortho Plus, Galerie graded, and Postcard paper to that list!

Real post card paper, 3 7/16 x 5 1/2 , Fiber base with a proper back print, I would buy it but I'm sure it would be a financial disaster! I've a friend with a letter press who back prints his cards with old Azo and Kruxo backs.

Duolab123
3-Nov-2015, 22:42
The truth is some of Ilfords directors were near or past retirement age and had borrowed to buy the company which had been in voluntary administration, a protective measure to avoid potentially going bankrupt.

The current (and newish) Managing Director was the Operations Director at the time of the buy-out so the guy at the top is not a bean counter, and it's the same finance director as 10 years ago. That's a very positive, also the company that's bought them is not London based and most likely better suited to being in tune with Ilford / Harman's long time future.

Sal's on the ball with the local issues regarding planning etc, I'd add though that if the housing development isn't passed then the site could be redeveloped for more intensive industrial use and Pemberstone's operate in that market.

The Directors who've left were the ex MD and then sales and marketing but Ilford/Harman have a very good supply chain, retailers get next day deliveries in the UK, I can't speak for other countries.

We, and by that I mean members here, need companies like Ilford, but they need new customers and it's a symbiotic relationship. If we want film and paper we need to be part of introducing younger people to analog photography.

Ian

My take is this deal is a win win for everyone. Clearly the site will be developed. On the other hand I see no reason why Ilford cannot stand tall as a brand, put some old injection molding machines back to work and make a simple snapshot camera. Put "British Made" on it and call it the Excaliber or the Winston Churchill !! . And sell into the future of imaging not a bunch of old guys worried if they will still be able to buy "full plate" sheet film. It's the amateur market that made all of this possible. Get some kids at least developing film again and maybe making proof sheets in their closet. Do some joint promotions with, Paterson and Jobo. Get the it's all going down the tubes mentality out of the mindset of film.

I can almost guarantee you all that those of us typing away every night are, customers that Ilford wants to retain, desparately. But only by embracing and fostering a youthful vigorous passionate creative cultural trend will we all win. Lomography has shown what can be done. Form joint ventures. Sell slide film.
There's so many young folk out there that haven't had the thrill of pulling a roll of film off the reel. Fixer running down their arms because they can't wait.
To see what they got. I see this working out ok, yes I'm still ticked that I can't buy kodachrome, etc. But it will be fine.
Mike

Drew Wiley
6-Nov-2015, 13:50
"British made" labeling? Does that mean it will tone better in tea? I hope not.

Duolab123
6-Nov-2015, 18:16
"British made" labeling? Does that mean it will tone better in tea? I hope not.

It means in Hewes case the finest SS reel (spiral) in the world and Paterson,the finest plastic reel, it is the easiest for beginners, and old folks. My goodness if the kids will buy Chinese stuff from Lomo, what a trip it would be to sell a kid a Paterson tank and some chemistry 3 rolls of film and a thermometer for 40 bucks. I will say this Lomo has the right idea on making a cheap plastic camera, 25 years ago this is what the ordinary person in the PRC had, worked fine, just like Brownies worked fine over here. It's a totally new experience for kids under 20 , A great adventure into the counter culture!

If you wan't to save the high end stuff you need VOLUME. The way to do that is to sell to the young enthusiastic masses.

Save the tea for after your session, or better yet a nice Guinness Stout

BEST REGARDS!

Roger Cole
7-Nov-2015, 08:02
"British made" labeling? Does that mean it will tone better in tea? I hope not.

Means you have to adjust the carburetor every month or so to keep it running. ;)

I mean this as a good natured joke of course. I love Ilford products and they've always been top notch.

Bob Salomon
7-Nov-2015, 08:32
M
It means in Hewes case the finest SS reel (spiral) in the world and Paterson,the finest plastic reel, it is the easiest for beginners, and old folks. My goodness if the kids will buy Chinese stuff from Lomo, what a trip it would be to sell a kid a Paterson tank and some chemistry 3 rolls of film and a thermometer for 40 bucks. I will say this Lomo has the right idea on making a cheap plastic camera, 25 years ago this is what the ordinary person in the PRC had, worked fine, just like Brownies worked fine over here. It's a totally new experience for kids under 20 , A great adventure into the counter culture!

If you wan't to save the high end stuff you need VOLUME. The way to do that is to sell to the young enthusiastic masses.

Save the tea for after your session, or better yet a nice Guinness Stout

BEST REGARDS!

Obviously you do not have very much experience with all the 35mm and 120/220 plastic reels. The Combination, center loading reels was so easy to load that it could be done with one hand! In fact, it was so easy to load properly that it was used in rehabilitation clinics for developing film by people with only one functional arm! Ever try to load a Patterson or a stainless steel or an old Kodak one handed? And the combination reel could just as easily load two rolls, back to back, for black and white processing.
No it wasn't British, it was originally German, then became Sweedish, then became American. Unfortunately it was discontinued as the tools wore out. These were also the plastic reels used by Phototherm.

Duolab123
7-Nov-2015, 19:07
M

Obviously you do not have very much experience with all the 35mm and 120/220 plastic reels. The Combination, center loading reels was so easy to load that it could be done with one hand! In fact, it was so easy to load properly that it was used in rehabilitation clinics for developing film by people with only one functional arm! Ever try to load a Patterson or a stainless steel or an old Kodak one handed? And the combination reel could just as easily load two rolls, back to back, for black and white processing.
No it wasn't British, it was originally German, then became Sweedish, then became American. Unfortunately it was discontinued as the tools wore out. These were also the plastic reels used by Phototherm.

You are correct, I have not handled every plastic film reel in the world. Still have a Elkay tank my Dad used all his life, must have worked as he left me a lot of his work. I grew up with Paterson starting when they first were allowed in the states after the patent restrictions expired (c. 1970?). I had a beautiful Honeywell Nikor Professional tank, I could load it OK, but I never once had a bad frame with the Paterson reels even when I was doing E-3 Ektachrome in 9th grade, did the reversal exposure right on the reel.

I'm not overly impressed with Jobo reels, but that is all that I use, now that I have 3 Jobo Processors. Don't go into the dark without a pair of scissors to nip the corners or you may never get the film on the reel. Once you get used to the fact that they don't ratchet like a nice clean Paterson reel It's easy.

I'm not familiar with the "Combination" please elaborate. I'm always looking for a new gadget! The local shop that just sold off his last 3 Phototherms used Hewes "Jobo core reels"

The main point I was trying to make is that I hope that Ilford's new owners get with some of the rest of the survivors and try to expand the market for this stuff.

Now I have to start an internet search for this ultimate reel you are talking about

Peace Dudes!

Bob Salomon
7-Nov-2015, 23:47
Cv
You are correct, I have not handled every plastic film reel in the world. Still have a Elkay tank my Dad used all his life, must have worked as he left me a lot of his work. I grew up with Paterson starting when they first were allowed in the states after the patent restrictions expired (c. 1970?). I had a beautiful Honeywell Nikor Professional tank, I could load it OK, but I never once had a bad frame with the Paterson reels even when I was doing E-3 Ektachrome in 9th grade, did the reversal exposure right on the reel.


I'm not overly impressed with Jobo reels, but that is all that I use, now that I have 3 Jobo Processors. Don't go into the dark without a pair of scissors to nip the corners or you may never get the film on the reel. Once you get used to the fact that they don't ratchet like a nice clean Paterson reel It's easy.

I'm not familiar with the "Combination" please elaborate. I'm always looking for a new gadget! The local shop that just sold off his last 3 Phototherms used Hewes "Jobo core reels"

The main point I was trying to make is that I hope that Ilford's new owners get with some of the rest of the survivors and try to expand the market for this stuff.

Now I have to start an internet search for this ultimate reel you are talking about

Peace Dudes!

CombiPlan reels. Combination seems to have been my spell checker. Also fallen Combina reels.

Jac@stafford.net
9-Nov-2015, 15:27
Means you have to adjust the carburetor every month or so to keep it running.m.

And don't forget to level the dash pots!

dsphotog
9-Nov-2015, 21:22
And don't forget to level the dash pots!

...and if/when a British car gets you home celebrate the occasion with a nice, refreshing, warm beer!
The Brits drink warm beer, because Lucas makes the refrigerators.

steveo
10-Nov-2015, 04:58
Warm tasty beer or alcoholic tap water lightly chilled... Toughy....


;)

dsphotog
10-Nov-2015, 09:10
I think we agree, Scotch is perfect at any temperature!

Kirk Gittings
10-Nov-2015, 15:56
You know the thought of warm beer when I am in the US sounds awful, but when I am in England it seems perfect. When I travel outside the US I attempt to be open to new culinary experiences and let go of my routine expectations. I'm looking for new, even radically different experiences-otherwise I would just as well stay home.

Peter De Smidt
10-Nov-2015, 16:38
If by "warm" people mean the low to mid 50s Fahrenheit... Drinking a UK ale colder than that lessens the malty flavors, which puts the flavor out of balance. Have you ever tried a really cold Guinness? Yuck!

Jac@stafford.net
10-Nov-2015, 17:29
[...]Have you ever tried a really cold Guinness? Yuck!

Isn't that illegal or something? I read, but cannot confirm, that US imported Guinness has a higher alcohol content than the native version. I can't tell because I learned Guinness in England in 1965. The years have skewed my vision, but not enough to tell. Four pints is the max. Oh, and I walk, do not drive.
.

Andrew O'Neill
10-Nov-2015, 18:40
And you should always drink sake warm... from a wee thimble.

Kirk Gittings
10-Nov-2015, 19:43
That is what I used to believe, but my Japanese friends have taught me different. They say their are different kinds for cold, for warm and hot and the finest Sake is drunk chilled. Though I like it warmed too. From WP:

"In Japan, sake is served chilled (reishu 冷酒), at room temperature (jōon 常温), or heated (atsukan 熱燗), depending on the preference of the drinker, the quality of the sake, and the season. Typically, hot sake is a winter drink, and high-grade sake is not drunk hot, because the flavors and aromas will be lost. This masking of flavor is the reason that low-quality and old sake is often served hot. There are gradations of temperature both for chilling and heating, about every 5 degrees, with hot sake generally served around 50 °C (122 °F), and chilled sake around 10 °C (50 °F), like white wine. Hot sake that has cooled (kanzamashi 燗冷まし) may be reheated."

dsphotog
10-Nov-2015, 19:45
Maybe Harmon/Ilford should diversify and import fine beverages and photo materials.

LabRat
11-Nov-2015, 07:15
Maybe Harmon/Ilford should diversify and import fine beverages and photo materials.

One can hope that they don't try that DeLorean scheme to raise capital... Ugh...

Steve K

dsphotog
11-Nov-2015, 09:32
One can hope that they don't try that DeLorean scheme to raise capital... Ugh...

Steve K

....And I thought that fluffy white powder was ID-11 developer.

Oren Grad
11-Nov-2015, 09:41
Looks like we've run out of useful things to say about Harman. Fans of brewed beverages are welcome to continue their discussion in the Lounge.