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bigdog
2-Sep-2015, 14:46
I have not done commercial work since the film only era.

Currently, I am doing a project that is documentary, and I am doing the work pro bono for a non-profit. However, it has been well received and I have been able to sell quite a number of prints outside of the non-profit which is getting the work for their archives. We're also working on a book as a fund raiser.

Now I have been contacted by a regional magazine that is doing an article on the organization. When the director was contacted about sending a photographer, he told the mag that there were already pictures he could use, i.e. mine! So, the editor contacted me to purchase (digital) images for publication. Well, that's fine, but I have no idea how to price such things.

Prints, I can deal with, and I have a price list, obviously. But giving a digital file to a publication, or to another org for their website (I've been contacted about that, too, but they never followed up when I mentioned they would not be free.)

Is there a convention here? A percentage based on what prints go for? A standard rate for publication? A web guide?

I'm clueless.

(And I didn't dare ask this on apug!) :p


A link to the work and the project: http://silverdarkroom.net/?page_id=279

Randy Moe
2-Sep-2015, 15:03
This has been asked before.

Definity a problem in these days of everyone's an image maker.

Perhaps a bargaining session would work. Perhaps not. Americans are not used to give and take bargaining.

hoffner
2-Sep-2015, 15:17
Don't know if it is relevant to your case and situation but when stock agencies digitalized all my slide pictures, now selling them digitally, nothing has changed on their prices.

bigdog
2-Sep-2015, 16:11
Don't know if it is relevant to your case and situation but when stock agencies digitalized all my slide pictures, now selling them digitally, nothing has changed on their prices.

Follow up.

Most of the websites I have found fall into one of two categories. The first are wanting to sell a photographer a software package for determining costs. This is based on the cost-of-goods-sold (COGS) model of pricing. The second types are offering free advice, but also based on COGS.

I finally found a site that said forget COGS, and use opportunity cost as a basis. For those unfamiliar with the terms, opportunity cost is what you may give up by doing something or selling something a different way.

Each situation is, of course, different, but in simplist terms, if I am giving a single file (as in this case) for one time publication, then the opportunity cost to me is the income from the print I would have sold them pre-digital. The price of the digital file is equal to the price of the equivalent print. (as also in Hoffner's post above)

Iím going with that. I have no need or desire to negotiate. And since I've already published a price list for prints, the price for an 8x10 will be the price.

Thanks. That was short. :)

John Olsen
2-Sep-2015, 18:15
Magazines are notorious cheapskates. They draw a salary, but photos should be free, essentially. I'm glad that you're standing up for yourself. When I last quoted a (low) price to a magazine, they didn't even reply. (My image was uniquely what they had to have for their article.) Some people just aren't good customers.

Iluvmyviewcam
3-Sep-2015, 05:24
It is not a big deal. Just be clear they are not buying the image rights and are using them for the article. Charge $1000 to $10,000. There is no set fee.

Kirk Gittings
3-Sep-2015, 06:51
No, there is no set fee but charging $1000+ for a stock image to a regional magazine will guarantee only two things-no sale today and no requests in the future.

Magazines are not as profitable as they were-particularly local and regional ones. One regional here owned by people I know paid me $2200 a day in 2007. Now they pay $600 and I know they are struggling even paying that.

Jac@stafford.net
3-Sep-2015, 06:54
I have no specific recommendation largely because I am out of touch in today's economy, but you might enjoy the articles in a 1999 ASMP Bulletin, in particular scroll down to David L. Brill's article, THE POWER OF NO! It gets to yes! (http://www.asmp.org/pdfs/bulletins/1999/mar99.pdf) The rest of the March 1999 issue is very good, too.


One stinger in the article, "The art director asks how much this picture is. It always surprises me. This must be what a lady feels when she is suddenly asked to go to bed by an acquaintance." -- David L. Brill

The rest of the articles are excellent and include the prediction of a new economy due to the Internet, for better or worse.

David, you have a niche collection in your photographs. That's a good thing! I wish you the best of luck.
.

bdkphoto
3-Sep-2015, 07:06
Pricing out work for publication is a straightforward process. You will need to know the circulation of the publication, the size and amount of photos that they want to run, and whether they plan to have a web presence with the story along with the printed magazine. You can also ask what their normal rates are for assignments ( what it would cost the magazine to send a photographer to shoot the story ). With that information you can get an idea of price range for suppling stock images. You can register at Getty images website and find similar images -- plug in your info and find a price that Getty would charge if the magazine sourced the images from them. All this will give you a ballpark range for pricing. You will need to craft language for the usage. IE: one time North American print reproduction for the article, non exclusive, additional charges for web use if they want that - a time period for that. There should be some helpful info on usage terms and language at ASMP.org or APA.

bdkphoto
3-Sep-2015, 07:13
I have no specific recommendation largely because I am out of touch in today's economy, but you might enjoy the articles in a 1999 ASMP Bulletin, in particular scroll down to David L. Brill's article, THE POWER OF NO! It gets to yes! (http://www.asmp.org/pdfs/bulletins/1999/mar99.pdf) The rest of the March 1999 issue is very good, too.



David, you have a niche collection in your photographs. That's a good thing! I wish you the best of luck.
.

I wouldn't bother with the 1999 article, there better info on the website with current language and ideas for the web use if there is any. The limiting factor is what they pay for assignments - if it costs them $500 to send someone to do the story they will not be paying you more to use your work... you will need to have that discussion with the editors.

Jac@stafford.net
3-Sep-2015, 07:20
I wouldn't bother with the 1999 article, there better info on the website with current language and ideas for the web use if there is any.

Your loss. The historical value is there, not concerning today's rates, but to show how we got to where we are, and in some markets it our fault.

bdkphoto
3-Sep-2015, 07:21
Follow up.

Most of the websites I have found fall into one of two categories. The first are wanting to sell a photographer a software package for determining costs. This is based on the cost-of-goods-sold (COGS) model of pricing. The second types are offering free advice, but also based on COGS.

I finally found a site that said forget COGS, and use opportunity cost as a basis. For those unfamiliar with the terms, opportunity cost is what you may give up by doing something or selling something a different way.

Each situation is, of course, different, but in simplist terms, if I am giving a single file (as in this case) for one time publication, then the opportunity cost to me is the income from the print I would have sold them pre-digital. The price of the digital file is equal to the price of the equivalent print. (as also in Hoffner's post above)

Iím going with that. I have no need or desire to negotiate. And since I've already published a price list for prints, the price for an 8x10 will be the price.

Thanks. That was short. :)

Pricing for publication has nothing to do with prices for 8x10 (or any size) prints. It's based on circulation, size and placement in the magazine, time, geography, web use, and exclusivity.

bdkphoto
3-Sep-2015, 07:31
Your loss. The historical value is there, not concerning today's rates, but to show how we got to where we are, and in some markets it our fault.

I've served on the Board of Directors of ASMP for a long time. The current Business Bible and the webinar series has the most relevant info on language, pricing and negotiating - and it was written by the smartest people in the room that I know and respect, and it reflects today's economy. The OP is off the mark with basing use for a magazine on a price for a print....

hoffner
3-Sep-2015, 07:38
It is not a big deal. Just be clear they are not buying the image rights and are using them for the article. Charge $1000 to $10,000. There is no set fee.

You clearly don't sell pictures to magazines. Asking up to $10. 000 is dreaming. I'm glad if I get everything from $60-$300 for pictures in books, magazines etc.

Jac@stafford.net
3-Sep-2015, 08:23
I've served on the Board of Directors of ASMP for a long time. The current Business Bible and the webinar series has the most relevant info on language, pricing and negotiating

You are right, of course. The ASMP Guide to New Markets in Photography in particular is very good.

Greg Miller
3-Sep-2015, 14:18
What Bruce said.

Another option is to purchase FotoQuote Pro (http://www.cradocfotosoftware.com/fotoQuote-Pro/stock-photography.html). To use it you will need to know all the distribution information that Bruce mentions above. Circulation, region, size,...

All of this is just a starting point. Every magazine seems to have a different budget. So a (a little) and negotiate down if you have to. If it is a magazine you are interested in, and you hace to lower your price due to their budget, negotiate in other non-monetary things, like a free 10 year subscription, or favor you for upcoming assignment work.

DrTang
4-Sep-2015, 07:37
150 bucks one time editorial use, and you get a 'photo by' and maybe a mention w/ your website in the article

bigdog
4-Sep-2015, 09:28
Pricing out work for publication is a straightforward process. You will need to know the circulation of the publication, the size and amount of photos that they want to run, and whether they plan to have a web presence with the story along with the printed magazine. You can also ask what their normal rates are for assignments ( what it would cost the magazine to send a photographer to shoot the story ).

This is essentially what I did.

Met with the editor yesterday and showed him the portfolio. He said he wanted pictures. He said normally he would hire a local free-lancer but he wanted my photos instead. The essence of the following conversation:

Me: How much would you pay the free-lancer?
Editor: $X
Me: And what would you get for that?
Editor: 6 images
Me: Mine are .5x each (the figure I had already decided on before meeting him)
Editor: I'll take 3!

Bottom line: I'm getting 150% of what he would have paid me (or anyone else) the shoot the job, and I have negligible work to do. He admitted he had a budget, but X is what the local market allowed him to get away with.

No it's not 4 or 5 figures, but come on ... :confused:


150 bucks one time editorial use, and you get a 'photo by' and maybe a mention w/ your website in the article

I'll get photo credit. The article is written, and it's about the non-profit I'm doing the work for. Everybody's happy.


David, you have a niche collection in your photographs. That's a good thing! I wish you the best of luck.

Thank you!

hoffner
4-Sep-2015, 09:49
It seems to me the editor was honest with you and you can be reasonably happy. End of the story.

Kirk Gittings
4-Sep-2015, 11:11
This is essentially what I did.

Met with the editor yesterday and showed him the portfolio. He said he wanted pictures. He said normally he would hire a local free-lancer but he wanted my photos instead. The essence of the following conversation:

Me: How much would you pay the free-lancer?
Editor: $X
Me: And what would you get for that?
Editor: 6 images
Me: Mine are .5x each (the figure I had already decided on before meeting him)
Editor: I'll take 3!

Bottom line: I'm getting 150% of what he would have paid me (or anyone else) the shoot the job, and I have negligible work to do. He admitted he had a budget, but X is what the local market allowed him to get away with.

No it's not 4 or 5 figures, but come on ... :confused:



I'll get photo credit. The article is written, and it's about the non-profit I'm doing the work for. Everybody's happy.



Thank you!

You handled it well. Good for you.

HMG
5-Sep-2015, 06:55
And the editor avoided the hassle and risk of hiring a freelancer. And knew, in advance, what he was getting. Win-win (except for the freelancer he/she would have hired).