eBay and PayPal alternatives?

[kleinbatavia]

In search of that particular lens or piece of kit, I'm sure almost everyone ventures onto evil bay or has done so in the past. Now with the spin-off of payP, things have gotten worse than ever. Besides the fact that payP offers buyer, but no seller protection (blocked payments on defective or never received items that were fine and signed for on delivery, switches and returns, etc), rates have quietly been increased (again). We're now looking at the auction fee (8%) plus payP fee (3.5%) and the greedy hands on the exchange rate (a further 3.5%) on top of which the seller pays the payP commission too. This combined puts rates above those of many conventional auction houses, even if only looking at the buy side... And let's not get into customs charges, although these have nothing to do with either of the previously mentioned parties. Traveling and ordering from the EU at times, I just paid EUR 1076 for a winning bid of USD 865 (plus 36 shipping). At todays spot rate, this means a whopping equivalent of USD 1183. Including shipping this is a 32% mark-up. I knew this in advance and am still happy I won as the auction included a few lenses I really wanted. However, the difference is exorbitant! We can buy and sell on the forum, which is great, but are there any alternatives? And if not, is it not about time to have one? Interested in your views and suggestions.

[pdh]

Interestingly (interesting to me I mean;)), I recently found it was significantly cheaper for me to use my credit card via paypal for an item (quite expensive) priced in USD than to ask my (UK) bank to do an interbank transfer - PP's exchange rate was better than the bank, and PP didn't ask me to pay another £12 on top for the pleasure of my using their service.

However, that's UK banking for you of course, of which the less said the better. And don't get me started on Import Duty and VAT ...

[kleinbatavia]

I did a bank transfer to a member on the forum in USD a few months back and it was significantly cheaper than payP, the exchange rate was a heck of a lot better too... Interesting that there seem to be such discrepancies though.

[Dan Fromm]

There is no alternative to eBay. No other venue has the reach or the eyes watching.

As for payments, well, it depends on whether you're a buyer or a seller and on where you're located. As a buyer I like PayPal's and my credit card's buyer protections. As a seller, they worry me. But I've never had a buyer invoke them or try to defraud me.

Bank transfers from the US are still excruciatingly painful. Because of fixed fees they make no sense for small transactions. I recently went crazy and shopped for an aged sports car. I came back to my senses before I bought one but I got far enough to explore payment methods. A bank transfers from the US makes great sense for a 30,000 Euro, none at all for a 30 Euro item. PayPal wins for small purchases, is silly for large ones.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Before Pay Pal a buyer in Asia sent me a package of cash, registered and insured for the amount plus. Clever.
.

[DrTang]

where else are you going to find that lens ?

no more camera stores

camera shows have dried up or shrunk down to nothing


ebay is the game in town and paypal is the entrance fee


I'm happy for it...I've bought and sold stuff all over the world


if anything..shipping costs are the biggest factor

[Michael W]

A lot of record collectors are buying and selling on facebook groups now. I've also seen fb groups for selling digital cameras. There will be no fees on that except the Paypal ones as that is still likely to be the most used payment method. I have heard of rip-offs via fb via fake accounts and I assume there would not be the protection you'd get via ebay if that happened.

[koh303]

Before Pay Pal a buyer in Asia sent me a package of cash, registered and insured for the amount plus. Clever.
.

that's illegal, and highly dangerous. There is no such thing as insurance for cash money.

[koh303]

The real problem of the OP is being able to deal with honest buyers/sellers. Because the world is now smaller, and has many more people participating, the amount and frequency of problems has gone up dramatically. Paypal and Ebay charge a fee to protect you from those problems mostly as a buyer, but in many cases, as a seller too (especially if you have been selling since before 2009). If you are a casual buyer/seller, you can choose one of two options:
1. Deal only with people you trust and know, and can have an actual discourse with in case of problems
2. Pay the cost for someone else to protect you.

There are any number of Forex companies which offer free wire transfers and substantially better rates then banks or paypal.

Of course i am forgetting the third option -
3. Buy it new.

[EdSawyer]

There *are* better markets than Ebay, especially for specialized types of items. They may not have the global eyeballs but often will net higher prices when selling since it's a much more focused market as a result.

[kleinbatavia]

Good day Ed,

If you have suggestions on dedicated marketplaces for LF gear, I'm sure a number of us would be quite interested...

[Alan Klein]

I found eBay problematic and except for inexpensive items where I can absorb the loss, I'd don't deal with it if I can avoid it. I prefer my serenity over the prospective savings which is sometimes illusory.

[StoneNYC]

How can I put this in a way that won't get deleted...

I've bought things with money orders in the past and had no recourse when trying to return an item that did not arrive as described.

PayPal is much safer and the extra cost is worth the peace of mind.

[Corran]

Good day Ed,

If you have suggestions on dedicated marketplaces for LF gear, I'm sure a number of us would be quite interested...

+1


I found eBay problematic and except for inexpensive items where I can absorb the loss, I'd don't deal with it if I can avoid it. I prefer my serenity over the prospective savings which is sometimes illusory.

?
I've only had problems as a seller on eBay. Any problems with an item bought on eBay is quickly rectified with a return. If the seller doesn't offer a return that doesn't matter. If it's not as described, a return must be honored.

That said, regarding eBay and "dedicated marketplaces for LF gear," I've had many items that sold for 10-20% more on eBay after sitting here in the Classifieds unsold for a while. Larger market / more eyes on the product and all that.

[DonJ]

Traveling and ordering from the EU at times, I just paid EUR 1076 for a winning bid of USD 865 (plus 36 shipping). At todays spot rate, this means a whopping equivalent of USD 1183.

But you're not paying the eBay or PayPal fees when you buy (aside from the exchange rate fee), so why is this transaction relevant to your message?

[EdSawyer]

It all depends on the item of course. Ebay can be good for buying, unless it's something that doesn't come up often, then the price tends to be high. It is ok for selling but the fees and regulations and all the nonsense are a bit off-putting to say the least.

I am sure most of the LF marketplaces are fairly well known. I would group them by camera-related rather than LF-specific, but I usually use these:

LFPF (this forum)
apug.org
fredmiranda.com
luminous landscape
photo.net
rangefinderforum
photography-on-the.net

If you are gear-brand-specific (mostly for 35mm and small gear), there are several brand-specific ones like nikonians, pentax forum, etc.

hope that helps
-Ed

[Old-N-Feeble]

IMO, eBay and PayPal is often better than buying or selling on forums. They offer excellent protection for buyers and a modicum of protection from scammimg buyers. I never advertise things for sale on forums anymore. My eBay feedback is nearly 1100 and is 100 percent. I've never had a buyer problem on eBay that I couldn't resolve. Conversely, I have one forum buyer issue that simply will not go away.

[HMG]

In search of that particular lens or piece of kit, I'm sure almost everyone ventures onto evil bay or has done so in the past. Now with the spin-off of payP, things have gotten worse than ever. Besides the fact that payP offers buyer, but no seller protection (blocked payments on defective or never received items that were fine and signed for on delivery, switches and returns, etc), rates have quietly been increased (again). We're now looking at the auction fee (8%) plus payP fee (3.5%) and the greedy hands on the exchange rate (a further 3.5%) on top of which the seller pays the payP commission too. This combined puts rates above those of many conventional auction houses, even if only looking at the buy side... And let's not get into customs charges, although these have nothing to do with either of the previously mentioned parties. Traveling and ordering from the EU at times, I just paid EUR 1076 for a winning bid of USD 865 (plus 36 shipping). At todays spot rate, this means a whopping equivalent of USD 1183. Including shipping this is a 32% mark-up. I knew this in advance and am still happy I won as the auction included a few lenses I really wanted. However, the difference is exorbitant! We can buy and sell on the forum, which is great, but are there any alternatives? And if not, is it not about time to have one? Interested in your views and suggestions.

My numbers vary a bit from yours. I figure 14% to sell (eBay and PP combined). This includes the fees on the shipping cost. Of course it will vary a bit based on the cost of shipping relative to the total value.

I just looked at the cost to convert from USD to Euro - about 2.5% compared to the rate on xe.com. But the paypal rate is effectively a sell rate with the rate shown on xe.com is the midpoint between buy and sell (essentially the spot rate). There will always be a cost to convert currency; paypal's might be slightly on the high side, but probably less than most banks for small sums. So, unless you were experiencing fluctuating exchange rates, hard to see how you got from USD 897 to 1183.

[koh303]

My numbers vary a bit from yours. I figure 14% to sell (eBay and PP combined). This includes the fees on the shipping cost. Of course it will vary a bit based on the cost of shipping relative to the total value.

I just looked at the cost to convert from USD to Euro - about 2.5% compared to the rate on xe.com. But the paypal rate is effectively a sell rate with the rate shown on xe.com is the midpoint between buy and sell (essentially the spot rate). There will always be a cost to convert currency; paypal's might be slightly on the high side, but probably less than most banks for small sums. So, unless you were experiencing fluctuating exchange rates, hard to see how you got from USD 897 to 1183.

Add to that quantitative discounts from Ebay and Paypal, then the actual cost to sell drops to 8-9% operational cost (including the % charged on collected shipping rate). The cost of shipping is usually on the buyer or part of the overall selling price, so i am not sure that can be counted, because you will have to pay for shipping at any venue.
Add to that a minor loss for the buyer (not the seller) on exchange rate (unless he paid with the same currency already in his account in which case there is no exchange rate) and there you have it.
I too have a hard time making the jump from 897$ to 1183 Euro.

[bloodhoundbob]

I haven't used eBay in years, since the inception of PayPal. I never liked that fact that it was owned by eBay, and there was a huge scandal years ago involving eBay employees committing fraud with PayPal accounts. Although they always bragged about the security of PayPal, my account was hacked and only caught by the fraud department of my credit card company at the time. The one time I was ripped off by a seller who didn't send all the film holders I purchased from him, eBay refused to get involved to rectify the situation. That being said, I will reluctantly enlist the aid of my 90 y/o WWII friend who deals on there frequently, in order to dispose of my Deardorff. It seems any buy/ sell site can be problematic, as the "buyer" of my camera on this forum pulled a Houdini act on me. Caveat Emptor, indeed.

[DonJ]

I haven't used eBay in years, since the inception of PayPal. I never liked that fact that it was owned by eBay, and there was a huge scandal years ago involving eBay employees committing fraud with PayPal accounts.

So you stopped using ebay when Paypal was founded in 1998, or in 2002 when ebay bought Paypal? And I must have missed the huge scandal; when was that?

[Flauvius]

There are still a few old "regulars" who sold on "The Bay" in its hey day, and who now sell privately pre-owned high quality used photo gear. The trick is to follow their websites, or to simply contact them with your needs.

While not as convenient as "The Bay" used to be, these proven old "regulars" are a good source for photo gear at reasonable prices. Indeed, some of the old "regulars" still offer their gear through "The Bay" , but naturally at higher prices than they privately offer the same equipment.

Flauvius,

[bloodhoundbob]

So you stopped using ebay when Paypal was founded in 1998, or in 2002 when ebay bought Paypal? And I must have missed the huge scandal; when was that?

Sorry for the confusion. My account was hacked in 2003, so I am thinking I read the stories about employee involvement around 2003 or 2004.

[kleinbatavia]

Add to that quantitative discounts from Ebay and Paypal, then the actual cost to sell drops to 8-9% operational cost (including the % charged on collected shipping rate). The cost of shipping is usually on the buyer or part of the overall selling price, so i am not sure that can be counted, because you will have to pay for shipping at any venue.
Add to that a minor loss for the buyer (not the seller) on exchange rate (unless he paid with the same currency already in his account in which case there is no exchange rate) and there you have it.
I too have a hard time making the jump from 897$ to 1183 Euro.

Good day, the difference includes the ebay shipping charge for customs, as mentioned in the earlier post. What I'll do once I get home at the end of the week is post a few print screens for the amusement of those who somehow seem to doubt the figures. There's nothing to gain by making this up, I merely used it as an illustrative example, based on my latest experience. That said the thirty-something shipping fee was very good considering the lot included multiple lenses, a field camera and a bunch of bits and bobs. Alas, more once I'm home.

[kleinbatavia]

138277138278

Hmm, seems like I can gun this on my mobile device. See attached. Plus the paypal charges not included in these (for the difference between the amount shown and the amount mentioned). The paypal conversion rate is, just for your amusement. Not difficult to do the math to get the percentage... (and as for the import charges, vat is 21% but for eBay .21*865 = 239...)

[kleinbatavia]

Anyway, it would be nice to get away from a yes-no discussion on the figures and push the thread towards valid alternatives. That will be of more use for readers :)

[pdh]

Is That eBay global shipping ?

When I sometimes think about buying from outside the eu, I have to consider whether it will still be worthwhile if UK customs and excise hit me for import duty and VAT (all of which is levied on goods PLUS shipping), plus the collection charge from the organisation who actually deliver the goods to my door.
Adding 30% is generally a good guide for this, but it can be a bit of a lottery whether the goods are charged or not. One factor is the carrier used to send it - for instance I always get hit when the sender user dhl, but rarely if USps or say Japanpost).

EBay global shipping always seems wildly over the 30% I'd expect, but in your case it seems roughly correct

[Dan Fromm]

When I sometimes think about buying from outside the eu, I have to consider whether it will still be worthwhile if UK customs and excise hit me for import duty and VAT (all of which is levied on goods PLUS shipping), plus the collection charge from the organisation who actually deliver the goods to my door

Good thought. What matters is the cost of the item when finally delivered, not the visible purchase price.

Re other venues for high-end items, Westlicht charges 20% buyer's and seller's premiums. The seller gets 80% of the hammer price, the buyer pays 120%. But Westlicht attracts the biggest spenders. It isn't clear that eBay does.

[koh303]

But the duties and fees are charged regardless of where you buy or how you pay, arent they?

[DonJ]

Good day, the difference includes the ebay shipping charge for customs, as mentioned in the earlier post. What I'll do once I get home at the end of the week is post a few print screens for the amusement of those who somehow seem to doubt the figures. There's nothing to gain by making this up, I merely used it as an illustrative example, based on my latest experience. That said the thirty-something shipping fee was very good considering the lot included multiple lenses, a field camera and a bunch of bits and bobs. Alas, more once I'm home.

I don't think anyone doubted your figures, just your rationale for placing blame. The import charge seems to take up the bulk of the difference between your bid and bottom line; how are eBay/PayPal responsible for that? Surely you knew you'd be paying duty on the purchase.

[pdh]

Good thought. What matters is the cost of the item when finally delivered, not the visible purchase price.
.
It is really quite peculiar (to me at least) that people will bandy retail prices about in discussions (which are often about the cost of film) without ever referring to delivery costs. A box of film for £50 + £15 delivery does NOT cost less than a box of film at £60 + £5 delivery :)

Much as I complain about the VAT/Import Duty/Collection surcharge, it can still be siginificantly cheaper to buy (lets say) a used lens from the US or Japan on eBay (so long as they don;t use the evil GSP) than from a UK dealer - and not just 5% or so, I mean 40%-50% cheaper.

Anyway, I'm wandering off-topic ... will shut up

[Old-N-Feeble]

Is That eBay global shipping ?

When I sometimes think about buying from outside the eu, I have to consider whether it will still be worthwhile if UK customs and excise hit me for import duty and VAT (all of which is levied on goods PLUS shipping), plus the collection charge from the organisation who actually deliver the goods to my door.
Adding 30% is generally a good guide for this, but it can be a bit of a lottery whether the goods are charged or not. One factor is the carrier used to send it - for instance I always get hit when the sender user dhl, but rarely if USps or say Japanpost).

EBay global shipping always seems wildly over the 30% I'd expect, but in your case it seems roughly correct

I never ship via anything but USPS... and not just for that reason.

[kleinbatavia]

The only carrier who ever cleared customs without incurring a hit was TNT, for me when in the EU anyway. When in Australia, most things go through, but I generally try to buy when in HK where they simply don't charge customs, VAT, etc. Anyway, I'm keen to move on to the alternatives. As in valid alternatives with at least some exposure. I mean, I sell stuff regularly, but that does not mean I'm an interesting source as it is not on a commercial level and I only have specific gear that I used or tested. There have been a few hints to alternatives, but not many concrete suggestions. Anyone care to share one or more?

[Old-N-Feeble]

What is TNT? Is that a service I should offer as a USA seller?

[kleinbatavia]

What is TNT? Is that a service I should offer as a USA seller?

Hello Old-N-Feeble, TNT is just another (very large) courier service. I sometimes use them, they seem to have a nack of evading customs, but far from all the time. However, the times they do incur customs charges, I get an invoice sent a few weeks after the package gets here and it is generally much more reasonable that USPS and many others. Anyway, there's no telling whether you will get taxed, it seems a bit of a random procedure. Mods, I am not pushing services, just mentioning an alternative to help a fellow forum member out. You can check https://www.tnt.com/content/express/en_us/site/home.html Anyway, the safe bet is to assume you will get taxed and if you don't, buy a drink and consider yourself lucky on the particular occasion :)

[Old-N-Feeble]

Thank you, kleinbatavia. I'll research that option.

[kleinbatavia]

No worries, I'm happy with every penny we can legally keep out of the taxman's pocket!

[Old-N-Feeble]

No worries, I'm happy with every penny we can legally keep out of the taxman's pocket!

!!! :) YUP :cool: !!!

[alpenhause]

I use ProPay.com for ebay sales, their customer service is really good. ProPay customers service reps told me don't accept credit card purchases outside the USA, Why? You have no chance of winning a foreign "Chargeback", in the USA you can at east dispute a "Chargeback" by proving it was delivered and signed for.

It does not matter which credit card processor you use, if someone outside your country does a "Chargeback" YOU LOSE! If the buyer claims "Not As Described" YOU LOSE!! even if they are in the same country as you are.

Ebay is linked up with PayPal and can effect a refund to your buyer without your consent. Ebay is not able to effect a refund with ProPay without your consent, I rather like that because it discourages bad buyers from scamming you to more of an extent than they can with PayPal. ProPay runs with rules dictated by the banking industry not rules and policies of ebay and PayPal, which rule do you prefer? Crazy and scam promoting rules and policies of ebay and PayPal or standardized sane rules of the banking industry?

Sometimes people from certain countries will hit the "Buy It Now" button on my ebay auctions and then tell me "I Only Pay PayPal!!!!!!" I have a certain nasty and rude reply for these pushy scamming idiots that did not read where it says at least 3 times in my auction "NO PAYPAL ACCEPTED"

If an honest buyer outside the USA really wants what I have for sale on ebay they will have had many email conversations with me about the item and then arrange for payment other than credit cards, it is good for both of us to fully understand the item and the deal, we then are more often than not quite pleased with the transaction and their are no misunderstandings.

This bad habit of some people of not asking any questions and coming to an understanding before purchase by using a credit card and then later starting a bunch of disputes is just bad, I am just amazed at how well non credit card purchases work out so well because of detailed communication between buyer and seller occurred before the sale

[kleinbatavia]

Haha, wow, this was fun. I sold a nikon D4 on eBay the other day. New user, no feedback, address somewhere in the sticks in the UK. So I mail eBay that I have serious doubts about the intentions of this buyer. I get a reply that they have investigated, please complete the transaction and mail your camera. I decide that this is too risky and mail the bidder that the item is unfortunately lost. Low and behold, no reply. eBay in the meantime bugs me with not shipping (I never received payment and would have refunded if I had) and tells me they will charge the sales commission anyway. I decide to not reply and open a ticket to cancel the transaction. Nothing happens. Four days later, I get an "urgent' message from eBay that the bidder has been suspended and please do not ship your camera. Seriously, what sort of clowns are they? This was the last transaction (or attempt at one) for me as a seller on eBay. More so as the "customer service rep" who replied and told me to ship did so in another language than my query. I mailed in english and got a nasty first paragraph that when signing up, I had agreed to local terms and conditions, so he would not reply in English (which he did not). Since, I have not heard anything from eBay, not even an apology that they pushed me to ship to someone they were apparently investigating and have blocked. What did happen is that they credited the sales commission, which is about the only good thing. Anyway, end of rant, I'll grab a drink to celebrate I still have my camera.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Haha, wow, this was fun. I sold a nikon D4 on eBay the other day. New user, no feedback, address somewhere in the sticks in the UK. So I mail eBay that I have serious doubts about the intentions of this buyer. I get a reply that they have investigated, please complete the transaction and mail your camera. I decide that this is too risky and mail the bidder that the item is unfortunately lost. Low and behold, no reply. eBay in the meantime bugs me with not shipping (I never received payment and would have refunded if I had) and tells me they will charge the sales commission anyway. I decide to not reply and open a ticket to cancel the transaction. Nothing happens. Four days later, I get an "urgent' message from eBay that the bidder has been suspended and please do not ship your camera. Seriously, what sort of clowns are they? This was the last transaction (or attempt at one) for me as a seller on eBay. More so as the "customer service rep" who replied and told me to ship did so in another language than my query. I mailed in english and got a nasty first paragraph that when signing up, I had agreed to local terms and conditions, so he would not reply in English (which he did not). Since, I have not heard anything from eBay, not even an apology that they pushed me to ship to someone they were apparently investigating and have blocked. What did happen is that they credited the sales commission, which is about the only good thing. Anyway, end of rant, I'll grab a drink to celebrate I still have my camera.

That doesn't make sense because eBay never suggests, and definitely never demands, any items be shipped before the seller receives payment. In fact, they strongly recommend against it. Really, none of this makes any sense. Something isn't right here... :confused::rolleyes:

[DonJ]

Haha, wow, this was fun. I sold a nikon D4 on eBay the other day. New user, no feedback, address somewhere in the sticks in the UK. So I mail eBay that I have serious doubts about the intentions of this buyer. I get a reply that they have investigated, please complete the transaction and mail your camera. I decide that this is too risky and mail the bidder that the item is unfortunately lost. Low and behold, no reply. eBay in the meantime bugs me with not shipping (I never received payment and would have refunded if I had) and tells me they will charge the sales commission anyway. I decide to not reply and open a ticket to cancel the transaction. Nothing happens. Four days later, I get an "urgent' message from eBay that the bidder has been suspended and please do not ship your camera. Seriously, what sort of clowns are they? This was the last transaction (or attempt at one) for me as a seller on eBay. More so as the "customer service rep" who replied and told me to ship did so in another language than my query. I mailed in english and got a nasty first paragraph that when signing up, I had agreed to local terms and conditions, so he would not reply in English (which he did not). Since, I have not heard anything from eBay, not even an apology that they pushed me to ship to someone they were apparently investigating and have blocked. What did happen is that they credited the sales commission, which is about the only good thing. Anyway, end of rant, I'll grab a drink to celebrate I still have my camera.

Did you use the auction format? I hope not. And if you used Fixed Price, don't you have the Immediate Payment Required option?

[stiganas]

Paypal/bank transfer alternative:

transferwise.com

I bought some stuff from german ebay and I was forced to pay by bank transfer (apparently this is the usual way in Germany). After the first costly bank transfer I searched for alternative and found transferwise.

I am using the service for more than one year (almost 4K eur transfered) and very happy with it. It is a bank transfer and currency exchange with low fees and no protection. If the transaction is based on trust try it.

[StoneNYC]

You can now use the Snapchat app as well as Facebook to send money.

Not sure they would be good for most but it's another option.

[Corran]

You can now use the Snapchat app ... to send money.

Does it disappear after a few minutes?? ;)

[Shootar401]

that's illegal, and highly dangerous. There is no such thing as insurance for cash money.

Illegal how? I've sent cash and received cash many times both buying and selling.

Do some research before you spew out false information

[StoneNYC]

Illegal how? I've sent cash and received cash many times both buying and selling.

Do some research before you spew out false information

He's not spewing false info...

[Old-N-Feeble]

Proof, sir?

[Liquid Artist]

I'm not big on paypal, but deal with it for my few online transactions.

A few years ago my mom had a paypal bill on her credit-card statment.
She just gave paypal a call asking what it was about, and they told her the company name.
It turned out being a completely legitimate transaction, which my mom didn't dispute in any way. However a week later the company called my mom. Paypal used the call as an excuse to freeze that businesses account. Three months later their account was still not working.

Personally I only use a pre-paid credit card with them. That way if something happens they can't freeze my funds.

[Old-N-Feeble]

I'm not big on paypal, but deal with it for my few online transactions.

A few years ago my mom had a paypal bill on her credit-card statment.
She just gave paypal a call asking what it was about, and they told her the company name.
It turned out being a completely legitimate transaction, which my mom didn't dispute in any way. However a week later the company called my mom. Paypal used the call as an excuse to freeze that businesses account. Three months later their account was still not working.

Personally I only use a pre-paid credit card with them. That way if something happens they can't freeze my funds.

AFAIK, that's not correct. You can withdraw the funds before something happens but your balance will go negative until you resolve the issue.

[beemermark]

I used to sell on eBay and then quit because of unscrupulous buyers and eBay policies towards sellers. However recently I sold a Leica M8.2. The fees were eBay - 10.4%, PayPal 5.8%, free shipping 2.7%. For a total of 18.9%. Yu have to be careful with Paypal. They send you an email saying your item as sold, congratulations, blah, blah, blah and a little button - would you like to send the seller an invoice. Sure why not. Oh BTW that was another 2.9% and could run as high as 5.9%. expensive email.

I figure the local camera store would have given me almost as much for the camera without the worries of a buyer ripping me off.

You'll notice most items are now "but it now" at prices higher than on line camera stores like KEH.

[pdh]

I used to sell on eBay and then quit because of unscrupulous buyers and eBay policies towards sellers. However recently I sold a Leica M8.2. The fees were eBay - 10.4%, PayPal 5.8%, free shipping 2.7%. For a total of 18.9%. Yu have to be careful with Paypal. They send you an email saying your item as sold, congratulations, blah, blah, blah and a little button - would you like to send the seller an invoice. Sure why not. Oh BTW that was another 2.9% and could run as high as 5.9%. expensive email.
.

None of these fees bear much relationship to my experience..

My eBay fees are a flat 10% on the billed cost of the item (shipping included or just 10 % as well on shipping), and 3.4% for PayPal .

I've certainly never been charged for invoicing someone

I think their taking fees for shipping costs is appalling, by the by.

You want a big marketplace, you pay.

I can post fs at apug or lfpf and not have to pay eBay fees, but I probably won't get a sale for months on end in some cases

[Corran]

Hmm, speaking of which, I just sold an item for $45 on eBay and the buyer is in Canada...somehow the Global Shipping Program got added to my auction (I never allow that usually). We'll see how this goes...not my problem if this guy gets hammered with shipping.

[Old-N-Feeble]

None of these fees bear much relationship to my experience..

My eBay fees are a flat 10% on the billed cost of the item (shipping included or just 10 % as well on shipping), and 3.4% for PayPal .

I've certainly never been charged for invoicing someone

I think their taking fees for shipping costs is appalling, by the by.

You want a big marketplace, you pay.

I can post fs at apug or lfpf and not have to pay eBay fees, but I probably won't get a sale for months on end in some cases

This is my experience as well. Plus I have a subscription so my actual per transaction cost is even less. That stated, the monthly subscription fee really just balances out. What the subscription allows me to do is list hundreds of low-dollar items for free every month. Again though. it mostly just balances. As a side note, I seldom sell on forums anymore... only reply sometimes to WTB ads but I'm not sure why I bother because those seldom pan out.

[IanG]

I started selling on Ebay but found it sucks unless I pushed my prices up which I didn't want to or was selling in bulk. Ebay don't make things very clear to sellers.

I much preer buying and selling on the Forums or direct, I've 3 websites and one will soon be dedicated to LF items.

Ian

[Liquid Artist]

Hmm, speaking of which, I just sold an item for $45 on eBay and the buyer is in Canada...somehow the Global Shipping Program got added to my auction (I never allow that usually). We'll see how this goes...not my problem if this guy gets hammered with shipping.
Living in a border town gives me the option of running across the border if I decide to.
That is if Fleabay left you ship it to another address, which they don't.

For 1 item on this boards b&s section I'm trying to make 2 or 3 purchases at once and getting them sent to the US side of the line.
Then it's worth the trip. 1 item isn't worth it.

If you really want to hose someone send the item via UPS or Fed-Ex. They'll pay through the nose.
However if they refuse the package it'll hit you back.

[koh303]

Illegal how? I've sent cash and received cash many times both buying and selling.

Do some research before you spew out false information

sending paper money is prohibited by the USPS for most countries. It might be legal in the US, but is very risky.
Many people do lots of things which are illegal or not allowed in other forms, many times and not only are not caught or told, they are not even aware of it. Kind of like rolling through a stop sign.
Despite the above, some people get dead when they roll through a stop sign or gun a late yellow light, the point is that the fact you do/did it many times has no bearing on weather or not it is allowed or safe.

[koh303]

This bad habit of some people of not asking any questions and coming to an understanding before purchase by using a credit card and then later starting a bunch of disputes is just bad, I am just amazed at how well non credit card purchases work out so well because of detailed communication between buyer and seller occurred before the sale

That is indeed a price example of excellent customer service.

Offering guarantees to customers is important aspect of customer service. Starting out by saying everyone is out to get you as the reason for not allowing any kind of protection other then your good word does not inspire confidence. Credit card protections are in place for a reason.

If you had trouble with selling while buyers are covered by some protection, perhaps it is the product or service that need to be examined and not the customers choice of payment. A happy customer does not file a dispute even if he has choice, in most cases.

[John Bartley]

sending paper money is prohibited by the USPS for most countries.

It might be a good idea to do some research before spreading false information. A quick web search turns up information, from reliable sources, such as The USPS, Canada Post etc, that indicates that sending money thru' the mail is legal in most countries. Yes, there are a number of countries where is it restricted in some manner (not allowed, allowed in small amounts etc), but those countries are in the minority.

[koh303]

It might be a good idea to do some research before spreading false information. A quick web search turns up information, from reliable sources, such as The USPS, Canada Post etc, that indicates that sending money thru' the mail is legal in most countries. Yes, there are a number of countries where is it restricted in some manner (not allowed, allowed in small amounts etc), but those countries are in the minority.

i have checked this again, and it looks like in most cases you can send paper money only in insures priority mail international shipments. So, there you have it. I stand corrected.
I wonder though, how one would file a claim for lost money against the USPS. In any case it would be considerably cheaper to send that money through paypal, considering the cost of USPS insurance.

I have no stock in Paypal, and if one prefers to send cash in an envelope thats just dandy. I would not, nor would i accept that as an acceptable form of payment due to the high risk for all involved:
money is lost en route, buyer assumes seller took the money and says he never got it. Money arrives short, seller says buyer is trying to rip him off, even though buyer insists he sent the full amount.
If someone is really worried about the fees paypal charge they should send a family/friends payment which is fee free (unless you use a credit card).

The amount of times i have been hurt by sending money orders, or accepting payment in the form of cash in the mail is by far greater then when paying or paid through paypal (on or off ebay).

That is of course just my personal experience, and like with many other aspects of life which come up here often enough, many of the members are stuck sometime in the previous century when it comes to things other then photographic technique, but just because someone enjoys using a 100 year old camera it means everyone else should suffer other 100 year old practices.

Paypal is perhaps the only organization in the world (in the US especially) which justifiebly charges a "convenience fee", because they save you the hassle of going to the post office, standing in a long slow line only to have to deal with impatioent and rude reps, who also charge a fee to give you this excellent service. I am a strong USPS supporter until it comes to standing in line and using money orders. Not to mention what you have to do to cash them (again go out, stand in line etc).

It would even be cheaper/easier/faster and potentially safer (if you trust someone enough to send them cash money), to just send a wire transfer directly to their bank account. That, unlike cash, is actually traceable. I recently started using a service for international wire transfers, which offers a better rate then the banks, and does not charge a transaction fee.

[koh303]

I used to sell on eBay and then quit because of unscrupulous buyers and eBay policies towards sellers. However recently I sold a Leica M8.2. The fees were eBay - 10.4%, PayPal 5.8%, free shipping 2.7%. For a total of 18.9%. Yu have to be careful with Paypal. They send you an email saying your item as sold, congratulations, blah, blah, blah and a little button - would you like to send the seller an invoice. Sure why not. Oh BTW that was another 2.9% and could run as high as 5.9%. expensive email.

I figure the local camera store would have given me almost as much for the camera without the worries of a buyer ripping me off.

You'll notice most items are now "but it now" at prices higher than on line camera stores like KEH.

http://www.fees.ebay.com/feeweb/feecalculator

http://www.newlifeauctions.com/calc.html

This seems to tell a different story.
It seems that selling at auction does result in a fee close to 10% (including on the actual shipping cost) of the total final price.
When selling a fixed price the fee is 6% or so (in the camera/photo category), with the same as above re shipping.
If shipping internationally the shipping fee is only on the domestic shipping cost (or not at all? i get confused about that part).
If you are a TRS you get an additional 20% discount. which brings the fee down to 4.5% or so.

Paypal just announced a fee hike, which canceled all the volume discounted they offered, so they are now 2.9% and 3.9% for domestic and international respectively, across the board + 30cents per transaction.

After an item sells on Ebay you have the option to send an invoice to the buyer, in which you can add various shipping options, offer discounts etc., doing so does not affect the fee structure or cost, and if the buyer pays before you send out your invoice, it still does not affect a thing.

Offering free shipping is the sellers choice, and can be calculated into the overall desired net amount the seller wants to get. It also seems that selling at auction has some advantages and risks that should be calculated before choosing how to sell your item, considering the relative high cost of a reserve price on auctions.

[HMG]

Living in a border town gives me the option of running across the border if I decide to.
That is if Fleabay left you ship it to another address, which they don't.


Incorrect. You can set up multiple ship-to addresses in ebay. I have 3, depending on where I'll be when I expect to receive the item. One is a "hold for pickup" address at a Post Office. Perhaps you're situation is different if cross-border or using ebay's Canada site.

But if you're paying via paypal, most sellers won't ship to an "unconfirmed" address. But again, you can set up multiple confirmed addresses in paypal. I have those same 3 address in paypal.

[Old-N-Feeble]

I think this post is on topic. Regarding eBay and PayPal being a safe venue to buy/pay...

I recently purchased several items from a well-known vendor. The item descriptions on their website were incomplete and I later learned they wouldn't work for my needs. I returned them (sealed/new) per their somewhat convoluted and messy RMA process. I shipped via USPS Priority Mail with Signature Required. The warehouse signed for the package 31 July and I still don't have a full refund. There were 4 RMAs from 3 orders. They eventually refunded 1 order after many frustrating Chat Sessions with their Customer Service Agents. After getting zero help for the other 2 refunds due, I finally filed PayPal Disputes for the other two orders. Two days ago, PayPal refunded another order. There remains 1 order still not refunded because the company isn't communicating with PayPal. So, the issue with this company has been ongoing in excess of a month. I have zero faith in the company that owes me the refund but I'm hoping PayPal will resolve the problem.

My point is, with PayPal I have a way to dispute the charges unlike if I paid by money order.

[europanorama]

paypal has changed the regulation reg. low prices but high shipping costs. they will also get a provision for the latter. maybe someone can precise this or i have overread.
reg. paypal-alternative.
dont has alibaba their own system.
which one do you advise when no credit-card is available? prepaid-cards, who has that? my bank?
e.g. my bank has now bank-maestro-card. not to be confused with MAESTRO alone. the first is a combinations card. can use it on foreign countries with low fees. But not online.
what is nerving me someone(wiht two accounts) which is accumulating shipping-costs when buying multiple items. is telling he will refund just afterwards. anyone understand why this is done?

[Sirius Glass]

www.keh.com
Good return policy plus repair service if needed, not like eBay and PayPal.

[pdh]

But not much use (as a buyer) if you are not in the US, and not much use (as a seller) if you want the best achievable price for your goods.

[kleinbatavia]

Well, I just sent a paypal transfer to someone. The paypal rate for USD 225 was in excess of EUR 210! The actual spot rate would put that below USD 200. In short, paypal skimmed over 5% on the exchange rate (it was a "gift" so no costs, otherwise they would have also hit the recipient). Call me stingy, but this is simply abusive. Wish there was a valid alternative.

[pdh]

Yep I too just got nobbled as a recipient for exchange rate skim.
Ouch!

Wasn't aware that could happen.
Live and learn I suppose

[HMG]

Paypal charges for (and presumably makes a profit on) currency exchange. AFAIK, every other currency exchange business does as well. I assume you know the difference between what is typically reported as spot or mid-market rates vs. buy and sell rates.

Right now, xe.com says 1 USD is worth .886 Euro as their mid-market rate. Paypal says .864 as their conversion (buy or sell) rate. That's a 2.5% difference, not 5% as you indicated. Whether 2.5% is fair I'll leave up to you.

But paypal also charges a fee for international payments (including personal payments). Your 5% presumably reflects both fees combined.

[kleinbatavia]

No need to explain currency transactions, believe it or not, I started my career in the dealing room as a forex trader a long time ago... The mid-market as mentioned means very little as it is neither a bid or ask. They simply take the middle of the spread. As such you won't get the middle market if you buy-sell. It is no more than logical that there's a margin to paypal, I was just observing that the margin was a bit rich... Particularly once you slap on the 1% paypal fee on the international transaction (which was theoretically already covered by the spread). I still have access to the RT reuters and TMX, so I would guess my figures should be about right... What's interesting though is the willingness of people to pay the amount they pay for transaction without asking what is happening. Guess it is due to the fact that amounts are generally small and they are happy to pay a few $$$ for the convenience. The EU is extremely hesitant on new licenses for any financial institution, but considering you can run a money transfer without a banking license, there does seem to be a real possibility for a money transfer service... Even if you just brokered a direct FX deal with amazon or one of the other large e-tailers, you would stand to make significant money. That's more for the business section and probably well beyond the scope of the LFP forum though. Anyway, I just mentioned the transaction as an illustration to see if I could trigger some suggestions for alternatives, not to trigger a debate on the accuracy of the figures :) If you like to talk FX, feel free to zap me a PM. For the discussion, I will run down all the messages in this thread sometime over the weekend and list the alternatives that have been mentioned. Might be useful. Have a great day :)

[B.S.Kumar]

Ive been looking at payment gateways for a web-based business I'm starting in Japan. The transaction fees at most of them are close to Paypal charges, or slightly less. Some of them want a "Reserve" account to be maintained, in addition to the regular deposit account. But, each month's sales proceeds are transferred to my bank only at the end of the next month, effectively giving the gateway 30~60 days' use of my funds!

Kleinbatavia, if you know of a better way to receive funds, I'm all ears.

Kumar

[europanorama]

In my opinion the current business-development of yahoo with alibaba( a new company shoud be established) will lead to an ebay/paypal-alternative.
arent there prepaid cards? are these made by the banks or special company. i dont have a credit card. the special maestro-card of my bank is not working like the original one. can only use it abroad on location not online.
Direct bank-expenses would be prohibitive. 20 chf per transaction, if in EU(maybe not all countries) one could pay with SEPA-paying. Which are very low costs. if the seller agrees.

[kleinbatavia]

Good day Kumar,

I'm not familiar with payment systems in Japan as I have not worked there. However, I do know a few people in financial services over there. With regards to the best way to receive payments, there are quite significant discrepancies. For retail clients and one-off transactions, there are not so many options. As a business (with registration numbers and business accounts), there are a lot more options to receive money. They range from corporate accounts with the likes of paypal to accepting direct bank payments and accepting credit cards. Depending on where in the world you are, the fees for (incoming) credit card transactions range from acceptable (some EU and Asian countries, also depending on the type of bank account that is linked) to exorbitant (particularly the US). The real question here becomes where you want to receive your funds and where you will declare your taxes. Whilst corporate taxes are quite attractive in some EU countries, personal income taxes are very high. HK and Singapore both offer attractive climates for corporate as well as personal income taxation. I do not know about Japan. In theory, you are free to establish your company where ever you want, taxation will be subject to local legislation. The US allows US tax regimes for overseas business, but the local authorities may or may not make this difficult (you will need to prevent double taxation). Anyway, plenty to consider, if in the EU, I would possible opt for The Netherlands where you can get good rates on incoming credit card payments with corporate accounts and quite a good corporate tax regime too. Particularly if you reinvest your profits. Alas, too many options and ifs and buts for an email. Careful planning, however, will potentially save you a lot of money bottom line.


Ive been looking at payment gateways for a web-based business I'm starting in Japan. The transaction fees at most of them are close to Paypal charges, or slightly less. Some of them want a "Reserve" account to be maintained, in addition to the regular deposit account. But, each month's sales proceeds are transferred to my bank only at the end of the next month, effectively giving the gateway 30~60 days' use of my funds!

Kleinbatavia, if you know of a better way to receive funds, I'm all ears.

Kumar

[B.S.Kumar]

Thanks, Kleinbatavia.
I'm talking about Japan only. The information about other countries is not really relevant for me. Japan has a vast range of payment options - for Japanese customers. For foreign sales, which would usually be based on debit or credit cards, terms aren't very appealing. One of the large processors has promised to see if they can get me better terms. Otherwise, it's Paypal for me.

Kumar

[Drew Bedo]

Oh for the "Good Old Days" when you could look a seller/buyer in the eye and shake hands across a table at The Houston Camera Show. Not to say that this was any more secure in terms of the quality of the item, but you could handle it directly first. The seller got his money and the buyer got his item, each having made some assessment, however accurate, of the other's integrity.

But yesterday is gone and each day brings a new dawn. The exchange of cash in a transaction is disappearing. In some instances it may actually become illegal if youyou believe what is written on the internet.

Yet e-Bay/PayPal really is the only alternative for not-new items. If you are looking for something and if its out there, it will probably be on e-Bay. Trying to find anything on Craig's list is a time consuming crap-shoot. If only it was searchable on a more global scale . . . . Yet the FS/WTB forum here is where I have had the best experiences selling off the bits I have accumulated though.

[HMG]

Trying to find anything on Craig's list is a time consuming crap-shoot.

Don't tell anyone who's looking for what I want in my local CL, but CL now has a pretty decent keyword-based search alert system. It would be nice if it allowed a bit more customization, and perhaps provided a bit of text around the keyword when sending an alert, but it works well enough. Certainly as well as the 3rd party ones I used to use.