help needed editing sky separately from the ground

[jasonso]

Hello all! I am having a recurring problem when editing my pictures so I think my technique must be wrong or what I want is just not possible. I've uploaded a contrived example for you to see the problem.
What I want to achieve, is to play with the levels of the sky (adding contrast, etc) and also do the same for the ground separately.
The problem is that I always end up with an ugly light border around the horizon, as you can see clearly on the right of this image - and all along if you zoom in.

The way I currently do it is like this:
- create two duplicate layers of the original image and give them both an empty layer mask - one for sky, one for the ground
- then using the magic wand/fuzzy select tool I select the sky outlining the horizon
- then, in the ground layer mask I fill the sky selection with black so all manipulation only affects the ground
- then I invert the selection and in the sky layer mask I fill the (now) ground selection with black so all manipulation only affects the sky
- after that I do all the lightening/darkening on the sky/ground

If anyone has any tips or ideas out there I'd really appreciate it. Oh btw I use gimp but I don't think doing the same thing in PS would be any different

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3799/19201334345_d427c34f83_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/vfKRJH)DSC_1696_fix (https://flic.kr/p/vfKRJH) by Jason S (https://www.flickr.com/photos/129117053@N02/), on Flickr

[Ari]

Try Lightroom; you can select specific areas to work on, without the need for masks or layers.

I hope you don't mind, but I took your photo, put it into LR, and in about one minute, did more or less what you said you wanted.

The result here is quick and crude, but it's just to show what can be possible. I just quickly dodged the entire area of trees and grass, added some contrast and boosted the highlights.

You can easily do the same for the sky, or just the grass, or even just one cow. :)

[Lenny Eiger]

If anyone has any tips or ideas out there I'd really appreciate it. Oh btw I use gimp but I don't think doing the same thing in PS would be any different

Some of you technique is right,....

I do this all the time. This is a normal problem to have. PhotoShop handles it well.

First of all, don't duplicate data layers. Just create an adjustment layer. To do this, one selects the part of the image they want to modify, then creates a curve adjustment layer. The selection will already be there as the mask...

I would not use the magic wand, certainly not a lasso or marquee for any of this. I use two methods primarily, the first is select by color range. That's the easiest. The other is to select by choosing one of the channels that outlines your edge very clearly. One loads in the channel as a selection, goes into quick mask, then loads up a curves dialog to enhance the channels separation. Don't worry about anything but the edge. Exit Quick Mask, save as an adjustment layer. There are a pile of extra techniques for this, Calculations to merge layers, etc.

Once one has that, one clicks on the mask to modify it to perfection. This is best done with a Wacom tablet and the brush tool. One loads the selection by command-click, then goes into quick mask and paints over the image. Exit and save the selection when done. One can also load up the black/white option of the mask and paint directly on that, its great for getting rid of the part of the sky at the top that didn't get selected, etc. One can use the lasso there and fill... as long as you say away from the edge. One can also use the brush, of course.

Once there is a sky mask (or the bottom part) you can invert the mask itself. You can also make multiple masks and add and subtract them to each other. Adjustment layers add little to the image, so you can do as much as you need to.

This is basic PhotoShop technique, it's essential...

Lenny

[Peter De Smidt]

There are lots of good tutorials on masking out there, many of them free. For example:http://phlearn.com/amazing-trick-for-refining-masks-in-photoshop
Here's another one: http://phlearn.com/forget-color-correction-lets-talk-color-selection


If you're willing to pay for a very complete course:
http://farbspiel-photo.com/product/mask-like-pro

[jasonso]

Thanks for the ideas guys. Lenny, thanks for the detailed method, theres a lot in there that I don't understand yet so I'm going to do some reading up and experimenting and might be back with more questions!
Peter, I'll check out those links too

[Preston]

I would not use the magic wand, certainly not a lasso or marquee for any of this. I use two methods primarily, the first is select by color range.

The Magic Wand is notorious for creating halos around objects, especially around leaves or other small details, and they are almost impossible to remove. The select by Color Range is my preferred method, too.

If you have a later version Photo Shop that has the "Refine Edge" option for masks or selections, that will be really helpful. It's a little confusing at first, but there are lots of tutorials on it.

--P

[Bill McMannis]

Try Lightroom; you can select specific areas to work on, without the need for masks or layers.

I hope you don't mind, but I took your photo, put it into LR, and in about one minute, did more or less what you said you wanted.

The result here is quick and crude, but it's just to show what can be possible. I just quickly dodged the entire area of trees and grass, added some contrast and boosted the highlights.

You can easily do the same for the sky, or just the grass, or even just one cow. :)
Nice job on the LR edit. Another quick technique is the graduated filter in LR is ideal for this sort of thing. It is also available in PS within the Camera Raw filter.

[Ari]

Nice job on the LR edit. Another quick technique is the graduated filter in LR is ideal for this sort of thing. It is also available in PS within the Camera Raw filter.

Thanks, Bill; it was quick and dirty, but hopefully the point was made.
I really like graduated filter tool in LR as well; in fact, I now use PS only for spotting and re-sizing, then I move on to LR for the image control.

[Henry Ambrose]

Old school:

Select the sky, feather a few pixels, save that selection, copy and paste in a new layer. Use the eraser tool set to a weak value and smallish brush size. Hide the background layer. Carefully slide the eraser along the horizon line on the sky copy layer, then click to show the background. Back on the sky copy layer set opacity as you like. Having saved the selection, you can use that for isolating the background for work there or further work on the sky.

[john borrelli]

I wish I was a better photoshopper. The comments above are from people who know what they are doing whereas my comments are from someone who does not.

The first thing I tried to do was be meticulous with the initial selection. This usually meant getting in there with the lasso tool and zooming in so that your selection is as precise as possible. It is a tedious thing.

I do use Lightroom for lightening and darkening areas of my landscape images and there seems to be less problems in lightroom than in photoshop and you don't need a lasso tool. What i did when I used photoshop and got jaggeddy results around the selections in those thin pixel-size border areas between light and dark areas was to use the Photoshop cloning tool. I magnified the area as high as possible and then selected a light leaf fragment to cover up a leaf area that was now too dark, a light bit of sky to cover a corrected area that looks too dark, etc. It was often just lightening a part of the selection that came out too dark and darkening the part of the selection that looked too light. I would decrease the sizes of the cloning tool until the changes were so small when you view the image at the actual image size you can not see the corrections. Reducing opacity of the cloning tool can also help to smooth the contrasty lines as well.

[Peter De Smidt]

The color selection methods, if the landscape horizon and the sky are different colors, is the best way to go. If you're going to do everything manually, then if there are sharp lines, such as a mountain or roof edge, use the pen tool. If there's fuzziness on the horizon, and color tools don't work, then use an appropriate paint brush in Quick Mask mode. Quick Mask mode is very good for refining a mask that you made with other methods. Please don't use the lasso or magic wand tools. It is difficult to be precise with those tools.

Also, don't use the eraser tool. Instead, use a layer mask and paint in black where you don't want the layer to show through. You can always redo it, which you can't always do with the eraser tool.

[Alan Klein]

Have you tried to control the exposure issue when you shoot these kind of shots using a graduated neutral density filter?

[Lenny Eiger]

Old school:
Select the sky, feather a few pixels, save that selection, copy and paste in a new layer.

This is old school, and I would not recommend it anymore. There is no reason to copy a layer, or part of a layer, unless you are using a layer blending mechanism to do your change (or something llike a high pass filter). It unnecessary, and makes the file larger. Adjustment layers are far superior, they are a great way of working. Masking allows for all that control people speak about...

[Daniel Stone]

There are many experienced retouchers out there who probably wouldn't mind little $10-20(just guessing based on my own experience) jobs like this from time to time to put some quick cash in their pockets.

I decided to go this route since I decided I didn't want to sit my life in front of a screen, I'd rather be shooting :)

But knowing what I want, and being able to clearly convey that to a retoucher who listens well and can "learn" what you like will make things go much smoother/faster in the long run. Again, just quoting what has worked well for me.

-Dan

[andy]

i like to do this sort of masking using alpha channels. It's a little tricky to describe, so I made a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAJDZQLMVlA&feature=youtu.be

essentially, you copy the channel with the best separation (often the blue) duplicate it, make a curve adjustment to make it stark black and white, clean up the black and white with the brush, load it as a selection, make a new layer mask, and voila. You can then feather the mask if you need.

It's a really quick and simple way to mask complex objects.

[Lenny Eiger]

i like to do this sort of masking using alpha channels.

essentially, you copy the channel with the best separation (often the blue) duplicate it, make a curve adjustment to make it stark black and white, clean up the black and white with the brush, load it as a selection, make a new layer mask, and voila. You can then feather the mask if you need.

This is what one did when it was first invented... however, its even easier now. All you have to do is command-click (on mac) on the channel you want in the channels palette and it will select the channel. Then just create an adjustment layer (curves, maybe) and there you are.... done.

If you click on the RGB channel, presto - luminosity mask.. same for Grayscale...

Lenny

[andy]

Lenny, that's right, but doesn't that build a mask using the values of that layer? I usually do that to make a overall mask to adjust luminosity, but if I'm trying to isolate a section pulling the curve on the duplicate channel gives a hard black and white.

[Lenny Eiger]

Lenny, that's right, but doesn't that build a mask using the values of that layer? I usually do that to make a overall mask to adjust luminosity, but if I'm trying to isolate a section pulling the curve on the duplicate channel gives a hard black and white.

Yes, but you can do the same thing by selecting the mask, either in quick mask, or in the "black and white" mode, (not sure what the correct name is, its when you option click on the mask and you get the black/white interface) and running a curve on that... If I am understanding what you mean...

[andy]

Yes, but you can do the same thing by selecting the mask, either in quick mask, or in the "black and white" mode, (not sure what the correct name is, its when you option click on the mask and you get the black/white interface) and running a curve on that... If I am understanding what you mean...

totally--that's a good trick!

[Lenny Eiger]

totally--that's a good trick!

Here's another... If you are having trouble getting the right separation from a single channel, and you think a mix of the green and blue will do the trick, you can use this little-known feature called "Calculations" to combine two or three channels into a single additional alpha channel. Then mask from there. There are a lot of options, including some blending modes, adding the inverse of a channel, etc. I don't use it much but if you love your channel masking its pretty cool....

My favorite trick, however, is adding and subtracting masks from each other. Once you have selected a sky, then you can create a new adjustment layer with nothing masked, then remove the first mask you made with a command-option-click. Not such a big deal for one selection, as you could just invert it, but when you have two - five areas you want to treat differently, the ability to add and subtract is terrific. (Add is command-shift-click.) If you can't get every part of the sky with one Select by Color Range, or channel selection, then you can make two different selections, and add them together... it's a huge time saver...

Lenny

[Peter De Smidt]

Like Lenny, I add and subtract masks regularly. Be careful, though, there is often a small band that gets left out of either mask, even when you don't feather the masks. This might not be apparent in some cases, but in my work, which deals mostly with the interiors of Gulfstream jets, it is. It's always a good idea to check for "cracks" between masks by going into quick mask mode at 100%. Paint over any missing areas.

[appletree]

Try Lightroom; you can select specific areas to work on, without the need for masks or layers.

I hope you don't mind, but I took your photo, put it into LR, and in about one minute, did more or less what you said you wanted.

The result here is quick and crude, but it's just to show what can be possible. I just quickly dodged the entire area of trees and grass, added some contrast and boosted the highlights.

You can easily do the same for the sky, or just the grass, or even just one cow. :)

Woah, TIL. Had no idea I could select/edit "develop" settings for specific sections of a photo in LR.