US-Made HC-110 vs European-made HC-110

[Ari]

I've read many threads on this, but have yet to find a definitive answer.

I have just opened a new bottle of HC-110, the label says it was made in Germany.
I've developed some 8x10 sheets and a few rolls of 120; they look a little thin to my eye.
B&H stocks HC-110 and the label says that it's made in the USA (Rochester).

Would I be crazy for thinking that the Euro formula is different from the US version?

Thanks

[Mark Sampson]

"They look a little thin to my eye" doesn't mean much, considering the possible variables.
The only way to tell is to buy some Rochester-made HC-110 and do an A-B comparison. Does the German-made developer have a Kodak label? Are the recommended dilutions on the bottle the same? I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out.

[Ari]

Mark, I have a very regular and repeatable process.
I'm looking beyond what the bottles say with regard to dilution; I've developed two batches of film, both came out looking rather weak.
My bottle does say "Kodak Professional" and the dilutions on the back are the same as before.
I use dilution H (1:63) all the time, with every film I shoot, and the last two batches were noticeably different, despite the labels and information seemingly unchanged.
Maybe I'll have to double the amount of developer and see what happens; I don't have any US-made HC-110 here, I bought my stash in Canada, and B&H doesn't deliver their HC-110.

[adelorenzo]

I asked Kodak directly and was told that there is no difference between the new bottles and the older ones. I'm still working through some of the older stuff so haven't had any comparison myself.

https://twitter.com/adelorenzo/status/410680034169348096

[Doremus Scudder]

Kodak chemicals are now made by Tetanal in Germany instead of in the U.S. as was earlier the case. The composition should be the same AFAIK.

There used to be an HC-110 marketed in Europe only that had different dilutions than the U.S. version. It was less concentrated and had appropriately less dilution indicated for any particular dilution (e.g., dil. B). This version was never marketed in the States.

It is not impossible that the newer HC-110 is a tiny bit different than the old, but I'm sure Kodak is trying their best to keep performance consistent even though the supplier has changed. I don't think there is any HC-110 being made in the States now.

Best,

Doremus

[Ari]

Thanks, Anthony, that's good to know.
I thought at first I might have a faulty shutter, but all my shutters are working very well.
FWIW, and it probably means nothing, the colour of the Euro syrup is much lighter than my previous USA-made stuff, but I remember something about Kodak making the old formula much yellower.

[Ari]

Kodak chemicals are now made by Tetanal in Germany instead of in the U.S. as was earlier the case. The composition should be the same AFAIK.

There used to be an HC-110 marketed in Europe only that had different dilutions than the U.S. version. It was less concentrated and had appropriately less dilution indicated for any particular dilution (e.g., dil. B). This version was never marketed in the States.

It is not impossible that the newer HC-110 is a tiny bit different than the old, but I'm sure Kodak is trying their best to keep performance consistent even though the supplier has changed. I don't think there is any HC-110 being made in the States now.

Best,

Doremus

Thanks, Doremus; I know about the old Euro formula, I think it needed roughly twice the dilution of the US formula.
The stuff B&H is selling clearly has "Made in USA" on the bottle, but it may be old stock, or an old photo.

[Mark Sampson]

Didn't mean to insult you, Ari. I'm not surprised that EK is subcontracting their chemical manufacturing these days... there's not a whole lot of Kodak left at Kodak Park anymore, in fact they've re-named it 'Eastman Business Park'. I haven't used HC-110 since I worked for Kodak, and have no idea about your problems with your developer. But the formulation changed from a brown color to bright yellow in the 1980s, I think, in any case a long time ago; I'd guess that it's extremely unlikely any of that old stuff is left for sale. We would hope for consistency from Kodak, from whatever country, but it does seem some tests are in order.

[Luis-F-S]

The only way to tell is to buy some Rochester-made HC-110 and do an A-B comparison.

Is the "old" USA made HC-110 in the round bottles even available? When I was in NY this past February, all the Rochester made HC-110 expired that month! B&H pulled it off the shelf when I made them aware of the expiration. I suspect only the German made in the tall square bottles is what is now available. Right after that I ordered 1 GAL from Calumet before the Great Shut Down and it all came in as the German stuff. Still have one of the round bottles left, so when it's done, I'll see how I like the new stuff. If any Rochester is still available, kindly advise. L

[Ari]

No insult taken at all, Mark; I just wanted to point out that my non-scientific test revealed something that I've never seen before with HC-110.
You're right, more testing is in order, once I make sure cameras, lenses and light meters are all in good working order.
If Anthony's quoted reply from Kodak Alaris is accurate, then the formulae should be identical.

[Ari]

Is the "old" USA made HC-110 in the round bottles even available? When I was in NY this past February, all the Rochester made HC-110 expired that month! B&H pulled it off the shelf when I made them aware of the expiration. I suspect only the German made in the tall square bottles is what is now available. If I'm wrong, kindly advise. L

That's what I found available here in Canada, 1L German-made HC-110.

[John Olsen]

Maybe the "dilution" definition is a problem here? Twice as big of a bottle needs twice as much water to make a stock solution, doesn't it? Making 4 liters of stock at a time (I'll never exhaust that much before expiration) seems like a waste, but the end result from the final dilution seems to be consistent. Or maybe my light metering is so erratic that I don't notice a difference.

[axs810]

My bottle of HC110 that I bought from Freestyle says Kodak Alaris Operations Canada....and Made in Germany for Kodak Alaris Limited then below that it says Rochester NY for distribution in USA.

So my bottle is German made?


edit/ Ari I am experiencing a similar problem as you (getting thinner negs than expected) but I'm not entirely sure I'm using the same HC110 as I did in college. If I remember correctly the bottles were slightly different but I didn't expect the chemicals to change. I just assumed my exposure was off...

[IanG]

Kodak have changed the formula for HC110 in the past, this time it's because Champion stopped making chemistry for Kodak, they were a a major creditor in Kodak's insolvency.

If it's slightly different then it's a case of adjusting one's approach to compensate. It's not widely known but Tetenal are a much older company than Kodak and always had a good reputation for their chemistry.

Ian

[kenj8246]

...and B&H doesn't deliver their HC-110.

Kinda off-topic but I don't understand this. Didn't they used to deliver HC-110? I could swear I've purchased HC-110 from B&H before. Oh well, as long as Freestyle doesn't stop delivering, I'm OK. And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread. :)

Kenny

[Ari]

Maybe the "dilution" definition is a problem here? Twice as big of a bottle needs twice as much water to make a stock solution, doesn't it? Making 4 liters of stock at a time (I'll never exhaust that much before expiration) seems like a waste, but the end result from the final dilution seems to be consistent. Or maybe my light metering is so erratic that I don't notice a difference.

You're correct if you use HC-110 that way; I mix it 1:63 straight from the bottle, I don't make a working solution then dilute it.


My bottle of HC110 that I bought from Freestyle says Kodak Alaris Operations Canada....and Made in Germany for Kodak Alaris Limited then below that it says Rochester NY for distribution in USA.

So my bottle is German made?


edit/ Ari I am experiencing a similar problem as you (getting thinner negs than expected) but I'm not entirely sure I'm using the same HC110 as I did in college. If I remember correctly the bottles were slightly different but I didn't expect the chemicals to change. I just assumed my exposure was off...

Your bottle is made in Germany, Eric. According to several people (see adelorenzo's post) the formula hasn't changed.


Kodak have changed the formula for HC110 in the past, this time it's because Champion stopped making chemistry for Kodak, they were a a major creditor in Kodak's insolvency.

If it's slightly different then it's a case of adjusting one's approach to compensate. It's not widely known but Tetenal are a much older company than Kodak and always had a good reputation for their chemistry.

Ian

More testing required, Ian; I don't have a densitometer, I just know what my negatives have looked like for the last 10 years.


Kinda off-topic but I don't understand this. Didn't they used to deliver HC-110? I could swear I've purchased HC-110 from B&H before. Oh well, as long as Freestyle doesn't stop delivering, I'm OK. And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread. :)

Kenny

Apparently, to ship this product, they must have certification in packing and shipping hazardous materials; B&H does not have the cert, Freestyle does.
Or so I've heard.

[StoneNYC]

Kinda off-topic but I don't understand this. Didn't they used to deliver HC-110? I could swear I've purchased HC-110 from B&H before. Oh well, as long as Freestyle doesn't stop delivering, I'm OK. And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread. :)

Kenny

I believe when they switched to the 1L now made by Tentenal, the "amount" of whatever not-ok-to-ship chemical exceeded the allowable amount per-bottle, that's my understanding. So now it can't be shipped without the paperwork that B&H doesn't want to do (simplified answer to a much more complex explanation regarding planes trains and automobiles [and bridges] hah!).

The 1L stuff is less syrupy, and the initial first batch had complaints, it's all remedied now and should be fine.

[AtlantaTerry]

Someone needs to do some accurate testing, that's for sure. It wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer tried to sneak something over on their customers.

[Ari]

Update: I developed some more film, and using a different dilution, I got different results.
Using a 1:63 dilution with new HC-110 last time, my negs looked a little thin.
Today, I used a slightly stronger dilution, which worked out to be 1:47 (dilution E), and the negs came out looking quite nice, if a little denser than usual.
This meant increasing the amount of syrup from 15mL per 950mL of water, to 20mL of syrup for the same amount of water; each sheet got 4mL of syrup.
Maybe next time I'll use 17mL of syrup, I mean, 20mL represents a 33% increase in dilution.