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Sal Santamaura
2-Jun-2015, 10:03
I've consistently opposed the inclusion of a For Sale/Wanted category in this forum since before it was added. I haven't found The Lounge as objectionable, especially since it's been policed for forum rule enforcement. However, this thread


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?122695-Annie-tell-me-it-ain-t-so!

is a turning point.

Either The Lounge should go or the forum's list of prohibited subjects, whether posts address them overtly or via innuendo, needs to be expanded.

BrianShaw
2-Jun-2015, 10:09
I think you are being too sensitive Sal. The thread seemed quite under control until your post (and, presumably, your request to have it closed). What, exactly, was your "prohibited subject" concern: the innuendo about forgiveness? This is probably the first time I ever noticed you doing something that appears to me to be rather irrational (mostly starting this thread to supplement what you already posted in the "offensive" thread.

p.s. no hard feelings in any way on my part. :)

appletree
2-Jun-2015, 10:39
While I strive to be respectful of rules (both in life and on the web), I think we should be mindful of those who post in respectful and healthy discussions. Is posting anything that is against one's own personal beliefs frowned upon? If so, how are we to have discussions? Slippery slope when we start defining the line for forum members on the fly. Then again, I have no issue with you, part of the community, bringing to attention the line. As it's probably not the site's intention to only have the line defined by one side alone.

And if the moderators feel anyone is violating the rules, attacking members, harming the forum/community, then they have been put in place to manage and handle that as they see fit.

The specific thread you post seems like the original poster, was in "awe" (my own words) at the role Annie Leibovitz had in the photos he linked. It is related to photography and seems in the appropriate part of the forum. And with anything on the internet, we have the ability and right to enter or leave a thread or website at our own volition. Lots fo links I, personally, avoid on the web, for I don't care to get involved or go down a particular path.
Caveat: it seems as if a moderator had already taken action in that thread, thus, perhaps was wiser to just lock it rather than negative/hateful/attacking comments ensue. I do not have any knowledge of what a moderator had previous issues with though.

Sal Santamaura
2-Jun-2015, 10:43
I think you are being too sensitive...And I think that thread's OP, as well as most who posted in it, were utterly insensitive and offensive.


...The thread seemed quite under control until your post...Surely you jest. Multiple posts were deleted for rule violations before I lost patience and submitted mine.


...presumably, your request to have it closed...Presuming is dangerous. I had no moderator contact and made no such request. Oren's action was not precipitated by me.


...What, exactly, was your "prohibited subject" concern...I'll not dignify the innuendo in that thread by posting an explicit explanation of it here. Those who engaged in it know exactly what they meant. I suggest you re-read it and consider their intent.


...This is probably the first time I ever noticed you doing something that appears to me to be rather irrational (mostly starting this thread to supplement what you already posted in the "offensive" thread...My post in that thread was actually misplaced. It should have been here in the first place. If it's deleted there, I'd be perfectly happy. By the way, accusations of irrationality aren't very nice.

Sal Santamaura
2-Jun-2015, 11:09
...I think we should be mindful of those who post in respectful and healthy discussions. Is posting anything that is against one's own personal beliefs frowned upon? If so, how are we to have discussions?...Respectful? This (from the thread in question) is what you call respect?


...Personally, I disagree with the whole thing, but mostly saddened by a lost, broken, and confused man. While I have an unpopular opinion in the secular world we live in...it is NOT my place to cast judgement on Annie or Bruce, for well [sic] I can't say why, but you may/may not get my drift...Your innuendo in that thread left no question what you were referring to. And there was no respect involved.

One's personal beliefs ought be just that: personal. Where they involve lack of respect for other humans, they should not, in my opinion, be included in discussions here. That's why I started this "Feedback" thread.


...Slippery slope when we start defining the line for forum members on the fly...The line needs to be defined by the forum's rules. This thread suggests a refinement of "the line" or elimination of The Lounge. Neither are "on the fly." Both will be considered by the site's owner and the moderators, then rejected or, in some form, implemented.


The specific thread...is related to photography and seems in the appropriate part of the forum...The thread in question comes off as bashing someone in transition. Photography appeared to be a pretext for doing that in this forum. To the extent that photography was involved, it wasn't large format photography. I'm more and more convinced that The Lounge isn't an appropriate forum category.


...it seems as if a moderator had already taken action in that thread, thus, perhaps was wiser to just lock it rather than negative/hateful/attacking comments ensue...I agree it should have been closed earlier. A lot earlier.

Sal Santamaura
2-Jun-2015, 11:12
.+1Randy, would you please be so kind as to identify the post number your "+1" refers to? Thanks.

Sal Santamaura
2-Jun-2015, 11:16
...My post in that thread was actually misplaced. It should have been here in the first place. If it's deleted there, I'd be perfectly happy...It's now been deleted in that thread. Thanks, Oren.

Randy Moe
2-Jun-2015, 11:26
Respectful? This (from the thread in question) is what you call respect?

Your innuendo in that thread left no question what you were referring to. And there was no respect involved.

One's personal beliefs ought be just that: personal. Where they involve lack of respect for other humans, they should not, in my opinion, be included in discussions here. That's why I started this "Feedback" thread.

The line needs to be defined by the forum's rules. This thread suggests a refinement of "the line" or elimination of The Lounge. Neither are "on the fly." Both will be considered by the site's owner and the moderators, then rejected or, in some form, implemented.

The thread in question comes off as bashing someone in transition. Photography appeared to be a pretext for doing that in this forum. To the extent that photography was involved, it wasn't large format photography. I'm more and more convinced that The Lounge isn't an appropriate forum category.

I agree it should have been closed earlier. A lot earlier.

+1

IanG
2-Jun-2015, 11:29
It's in the lounge, what's the problem. Sometimes people are too wrapped up and blinkered, not everyone shares the same views.

It's not offensive, perhaps for some it's a difficult topic but it's reality it happens in real life. It's time some just chilled out and stopped aruing for the sake of it.

Ian

Sal Santamaura
2-Jun-2015, 11:30
+1Thanks, Randy. It's clear now.

Vaughn
2-Jun-2015, 11:31
Pretty much thinking along the same lines, Ian. But I did not see the deleted posts, so it might have gone further than I thought.

Sal Santamaura
2-Jun-2015, 11:40
It's in the lounge, what's the problem...It's not offensive...The problem is the thread/posts were offensive. That you were not offended simply means it's not a problem for you. The rules ought strive to avoid having the forum be offensive to those who are sensitive toward other humans' feelings, not those who aren't.


...It's time some just chilled out and stopped aruing [sic] for the sake of it...This is the Feedback category. It's designed to solicit member input. I provided input. There's no arguing happening.

Peter Lewin
2-Jun-2015, 11:41
I think it is worth pointing out that while some took the subject of the thread as being Bruce Jenner, others (at least I) read the original post as sadness that a photographer with Annie Liebovitz's credentials had been lured into the Kardashian "celebrity for celebrity's sake" machine. Most of the Liebovitz photographs I'm familiar with dealt with people who were known for their music, or their movies, or other more recognizable talents. I have no problem with the decision to close the thread, merely to observe that not everyone read it in relation to gender issues.

Randy Moe
2-Jun-2015, 11:43
I will say this. That thread's previous contents are making me seriously reconsider my commitment to this forum.



And that is all I will say.

Sal Santamaura
2-Jun-2015, 11:45
...not everyone read it in relation to gender issues.Then, in my opinion, they weren't reading it closely enough. The innuendo was crystal clear.

Sal Santamaura
2-Jun-2015, 11:50
...That thread's previous contents are making me seriously reconsider my commitment to this forum...Please don't take that approach, Randy. This forum has weathered worse in the past. It's worth working to improve rather than abandoning.

Randy's is exactly the kind of reaction engendered by that thread. Not just in one existing active member, but in other lurking possible future participants. If a healthy large format photography community is to be nurtured, this forum should not tolerate negativity toward any person or group being posted, whether explicit or implied.

BrianShaw
2-Jun-2015, 12:11
:)

I've not had the easiest day today and took a "chill pill". I have a few to share... if anyone is interested. :D

p.s. And sorry for using the term "irrational". What I should have said was something more along the lines of "something I wouldn't have done and something I never expected you to do." Peace, amigo!

Oren Grad
2-Jun-2015, 12:13
Before this, too, gets out of hand, a few observations:

We try not to be heavy-handed in our moderation. Speaking for myself, if there seems to be a legitimate photographic angle to a topic - for example, Annie Leibovitz's role - I'm inclined to let people have a chance to discuss it.

To state the obvious, the status of transgendered people in society is a sensitive topic, even more so at the moment because the news and comment surrounding this case. Even with the best of intentions, such topics can be very difficult to discuss without straying into politics and/or religion. It turned out not to be possible in this thread; there was some frank rudeness to boot.

We tried. It didn't work. It was time to close the thread.

Thoughtful comments on how best in general to draw the difficult line between what should and shouldn't be permitted are appreciated. Please do not argue any further about the behavior of particular participants or the meaning or implications of specific statements made in the now-closed thread.

Peter Lewin
2-Jun-2015, 12:33
Then, in my opinion, they weren't reading it closely enough. The innuendo was crystal clear.
Sal, I think we are mixing apples and oranges. I agree completely with you that the thread veered off into gender issues, which were inappropriate for this forum. What I was saying is that I read the original post itself as bemoaning Annie Leibovitz's choice of an aspect of the Kardashian publicity machine as a cover subject for VF. In terms of this "feedback thread," it shows how while an initial subject may not fall into an obviously banned area, the subsequent comments certainly can.

appletree
2-Jun-2015, 13:53
Respectful? This (from the thread in question) is what you call respect?

Your innuendo in that thread left no question what you were referring to. And there was no respect involved.

One's personal beliefs ought be just that: personal. Where they involve lack of respect for other humans, they should not, in my opinion, be included in discussions here. That's why I started this "Feedback" thread.

I stand by my words, firmly, respectfully, and boldy. I apologize if my beliefs somehow offended someone. I seem to have accepted and respect your opinions and "feedback" on the subject as well and have not been offended.

That said, I had, and still have, the utmost respect for all of those involved. I fail to understand why it is acceptable to have a lopsided opinion. It seems fine to accept everything and go with the flow, but to discuss our view that is towards Annie's position and career which goes against popular opinion is not welcomed.

Best of luck in your feedback. I hope things work out for the Lounge and any refinement to said line. Take care.

jnanian
2-Jun-2015, 14:13
i looked in the guidelines / faq
is there a list of prohibited subjects ?
it says pertaining to LF photography, no attacks &c ..
nothing about off topic conversations ...

a link would be great, thanks

prendt
2-Jun-2015, 14:16
Either The Lounge should go or the forum's list of prohibited subjects, whether posts address them overtly or via innuendo, needs to be expanded.

+1. What is needed is to prohibit prohibiting subjects.

Oren Grad
2-Jun-2015, 14:21
i looked in the guidelines / faq
is there a list of prohibited subjects ?

The Lounge - An area for off-topic (non-LF, but preferably photography-related) discussion and socializing. Topics and discussions of politics and religion are not allowed, here or elsewhere on the forum, and the forum's general behavioral standards apply here, too.

hoffner
2-Jun-2015, 14:32
We need more Don Quichottes.

jnanian
2-Jun-2015, 15:56
The Lounge - An area for off-topic (non-LF, but preferably photography-related) discussion and socializing. Topics and discussions of politics and religion are not allowed, here or elsewhere on the forum, and the forum's general behavioral standards apply here, too.



huge thanks oren
and paulr

+1

Jac@stafford.net
2-Jun-2015, 16:00
There is so much in my seventy-years of living I do not understand, except just that.

Certain subjects clearly grab some people by emotional strings that some of us cannot understand. Then someone else who has opposite impressions will bark back with feelings that they cannot, or do not want to understand.

There is a expression from Allan Watts: "The Wisdom of Insecurity" that I believe could save us if we embraced our ignorance and let go so that we might understand, or at least make distance from our prejudices, and suffer less from our own prejudices - which actually hurt the prejudiced rather than the subject.

How does this relate to large format? Ask at your own risk. :)

hoffner
2-Jun-2015, 16:03
I have no issues with the lounge. But the outright hating on a fellow photographer (Liebowitz) is unprofessional.

Remember the over 200 posts long thread trashing Peter Lik photograph for 6.5 million $? Those were the times!

Oren Grad
2-Jun-2015, 16:34
In our society, at the present time, deeply conflicting views on this topic are widely and strongly held, with both political and religious dimensions never far from the surface. The Forum is not the place to debate this issue.

I have deleted the Lounge thread in its entirety as well.

The way to keep this a welcoming place for all is for everyone to stick to photography, and to our guidelines.