Marks when Using Jobo Print Drums for B&W negatives. Possible causes and solutions.

[ic-racer]

For the past three years I have compiling data in an attempt to cure issues with marks on the base of B&W negatives processed in Jobo print drums.

Specifically, the ridges of the tank lining can leave permanent marks on the back of the film.

HOW IT HAPPENS:
During fixation, the fixer cannot reach the entire back surface of the negative. If the print is then washed, a permanent mark will form. Re-fixing won't alleviate the problem.


THE SOLUTION:
After fixing in the drum, the negatives need to be removed from the drum and placed in the fixer again so the back of the film can be entirely covered with fixer. This only takes a minute or so and can be done one-at-a time before placing the negatives in a washer.
This has to happen before any HCA, Hypo Clear or water touches the film

Alternative is to do the entire fixation in a tray but that would best be done in the dark.

MY UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES:

1) Wash water temperature. I used my print washer for the negatives, but it is hooked to cold water. I needed to re-route my 24C water to the print washer.
2) Since the negatives need to be removed from the 2800 drum before any water is placed in drum, the Jobo tank and lift are still laden with fixer. The tank needs to be re-assembled with no film and placed back on the Jobo for the 1 liter rinse.



References:
Film: ILFORD HP5 8x10
Developer: Kodak T-Max
Fixer: Ammonia Thiosulfate
Temp: 24C
Tank: Jobo 2800 series
Processor: CPP2 & Lift

[ic-racer]

Reference Photograph: Jobo 2800 Drum
133462

[Jac@stafford.net]

Is there something JOBO or we can modify to eliminate this issue?
.

[axs810]

Can you post an example photo of the marks you are getting? I just want to see so I know what it looks like

[ic-racer]

Is there something JOBO or we can modify to eliminate this issue?
.

Not sure I understand the question, but Jobo recommends the Expert 3000 drums for film and does not recommend the paper drums for film. Using a paper drum for film is a cost-saving idea because 2800 drums used to be pretty inexpensive. Like ten times less expensive than an Expert 3000 series drum for 8x10 film.

I have an Expert drum for 8x10 film but it is big and heavy for processing less than 5 sheets at a time. Since I had a bunch of 2800 drums I wanted to see if I could get them to work as good as the Expert drum. In terms of processing the emulsion side, they have always been fine as long as the film stays in the slots.

[ic-racer]

These marks show in the print and are permanent as far as I can tell. Re-washing and/or re-fixing won't remove it. The negative is ruined.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/ic-racer/2015/marks%202.jpg

[ic-racer]

These marks don't show in the print and seemed to happen almost 100% of the time with the 2800 drum and I lived with them for a number of years. Using the process in the OP even these marks are eliminated.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/ic-racer/2015/marks%201.jpg

[ic-racer]

I listed what works in the OP but for the record this is a list of things that DON'T WORK to eliminate the marks:

Cleaning the drum with soap and water
Cleaning the drum with isopropyl alcohol
Cleaning the drum with 409
New old stock 2800 drum still in box, looked like it had never been used
Using Hypo Clearing Agent right after fixing with negatives in the drum
Using water before HCA with negatives still in the drum
Not using HCA, washing in the drum
Not using HCA, washing outside the drum
RE-fixing and re-washing
Dipping in HCA after removing negs from the drum
Pre-wash
Mixing photoflo with the Fixer in the drum

[Kirk Gittings]

As per fixing the negs in the light, BTZS tube practitioners have been doing this for decades. Phil Davis recommended it. BTZS system currently recommends going from developer to stop with the lights on. I dim the lights to just enough to see what I'm doing and rinse the film in the tubes the remove the film to a tray of fixer. Since there is no significant development their is no discernible fog and the fixer removes the undeveloped silver.



No one is suggesting that film won't fog if you just pull it out of the developer and leave in room light without farther processing. It certainly will. However, in BTZS type procedure the cap is removed from the tube after development is complete, in room light or subdued room light as one prefers, and the tube is then immediately placed in a a tray of acid stop bath for 10-15 seconds. After 10-15 seconds in the stop bath the film is removed from the tube, in full room light if you like, and fixed in a tray.

I have developed hundreds of sheets of film this way, and in many cases where I was testing, measured densities with a sensitometer. There is no measurable fogging of the film with this procedure that the sensitometer is able to discern.

Sandy King

[Vaughn]

I had similar problems (see post #6) with even the 3005 drum. Going to a fixer without hardener seemed to be the solution. My best guess was that the hardener hardened the coating on the back of the film before it could be removed by the limited amount of fluid that can reach the back of the film while in the drum.

I do not know for sure it this was the true cure -- but since I have switched to a non-hardening fix, this major problem was not revisited me. Of course, if you do not use a hardening fix, then there goes my theory! Then I would say perhaps the longer pre-development rinse I give the film I give the film (3 to 5 minutes) might have helped solved my problem.

[tgtaylor]

Until I got a 3005 drum, I processed all my 8x10 negs - well over 100, in a 2830 drum and have never experienced any marks or streaks on the negative even though they are held tight against the drum upon removal. I still use the 2830 when I have only 1 or 2 negatives to process.

Thomas

[hka]

The 2800 series are printdrums and for film you need the 2500 drums.
Multitank 5 - 2553. Not the Multitank 2 they are also with the ridges.

[tgtaylor]

hka is right. But the OP is using the print drum which I also use.

From what I recall from reading various post on this, most people don't get any marks from using the print drum which seems to imply that there is something "wrong" with your drum. Maybe it's slightly out of tolerance.

Thomas

[Jim Noel]

I had similar problems (see post #6) with even the 3005 drum. Going to a fixer without hardener seemed to be the solution. My best guess was that the hardener hardened the coating on the back of the film before it could be removed by the limited amount of fluid that can reach the back of the film while in the drum.

I do not know for sure it this was the true cure -- but since I have switched to a non-hardening fix, this major problem was not revisited me. Of course, if you do not use a hardening fix, then there goes my theory! Then I would say perhaps the longer pre-development rinse I give the film I give the film (3 to 5 minutes) might have helped solved my problem.

This is much the system I have used for years.I use a 5 minute pre-rinse with a drop or two of LFN, and a non-hardening fixer.Works for me,no marks on the back of the film.

[ic-racer]

I actually started a thread on how great the inexpensive 2800 drums were for film processing back in 2008 or so. However, when I look back at negatives from that time period I can almost always detect the faint marks as seen in post #7. Since others chimed in that the 2800 drums worked well for them, I did not feel bad about starting the thread and encouraging the use of the 2800 drums. Still, I needed closure for myself to eliminate even those faint marks.

Thank you posters for sharing your experience.

[ic-racer]

I have quite a few different 2800 series pieces. Four or five middle sections and two bottoms. My experience was that marks are caused by certain combinations of film and chemicals.

Also, for the record my tests were conducted with Ilford Hypam fixer and no hardener.


Also, for the assistance of anyone else that finds this thread. Those of you with perfectly mark-less film base after processing in 2800 drums; could you detail your chemicals, film and procedure. Thank you in advance.

[koh303]

I have quite a few different 2800 series pieces. Four or five middle sections and two bottoms. My experience was that marks are caused by certain combinations of film and chemicals.

Also, for the record my tests were conducted with Ilford Hypam fixer and no hardener.

Indeed that is the case, some ilford and kodak films react differently and have no marks. Some do, with some chems, but not with others etc.,
FP4 seems to be the most prone to makrs.

[Vaughn]

Indeed that is the case, some ilford and kodak films react differently and have no marks. Some do, with some chems, but not with others etc.,
FP4 seems to be the most prone to makrs.

It was FP4+ that showed the markings I had...I am still using FP4+ though.

[tgtaylor]

I too use Delta 100 and also Fuji Acros with Xtol 1:1 without a pre-rinse and Formulary TF5 without any marks discernible - even the faintest. The sheets readily slide into the drum separated with clips but are tight to remove due to the wash water clinging to the backside.

The ridges on the print drum are designed to ensure flow to the back of the print (film). The 2500 series for film are designed for reels and are without the ridges which would otherwise present unnecessary wear on the reels as well as the ridges themselves.

Thomas

[ic-racer]

The ridges on the print drum are designed to ensure flow to the back of the print (film).

Actually, not. That is the problem at hand, see the image in post #6 above which shows what can happen when an area of HP5 8x10 film can touch the wall of the drum. The Expert drums, which are designed for film, use a different 'diameter to film size ratio' and do not have ridges. Jobo did make inserts for some large print drums to use them for negatives. Using the method in the Original Post gets around the design issue of the print drum and should allow most all films to be processed with a little additional work.

[Jordan]

I had marks while using HP5 in 8x10" in the 3005 Expert drum. The marks were always on the base side (the side against the wall of the drum). Kodak TXP never showed any marks so I went back to using TXP. I wanted to use HP5 or even FP4, but I didn't like, regardless of whether you could actually see them in a print, the strange marks on the base side of those films. With that said if there truly were a way to alleviate these marks I could probably be coerced into trying Ilford films again.

[Jim Noel]

I use ILford films exclusively and have never had a problem with marks when processed in an Expert tank.Their design, which is barrel shaped, doesn't allow the reverse of the film to touch the walls once liquid is in the tank.

[ic-racer]

I had marks while using HP5 in 8x10" in the 3005 Expert drum. The marks were always on the base side (the side against the wall of the drum). Kodak TXP never showed any marks so I went back to using TXP. I wanted to use HP5 or even FP4, but I didn't like, regardless of whether you could actually see them in a print, the strange marks on the base side of those films. With that said if there truly were a way to alleviate these marks I could probably be coerced into trying Ilford films again.

This is something that crossed my mind (i.e. HP5 marks with the Expert Drum). Type of fixer and developer may play a role. Either way, I predict that immersion of the entire negative in fixer, prior to washing, could remedy any marks.

[Jordan]

This is something that crossed my mind (i.e. HP5 marks with the Expert Drum). Type of fixer and developer may play a role. Either way, I predict that immersion of the entire negative in fixer, prior to washing, could remedy any marks.

I can't remember if I tried that, but I'm almost certain I did, because I was having trouble removing the anti-halation layer and believe I was taking the film out for an additional fully submerged fixing in a tray along with a fix remover bath and then into the washer. I couldn't remedy the problem, so I went back to TXP. I was using x-tol and NH5 fixer. Now I will say that the problem hasn't occurred in Ilford 4x5 films in the Expert Drums in my experience.