Cutting and processing 4x10 film (and other tangential observations)

[Christopher Barrett]

I've been cutting down 8x10 the last few months, 50 sheets or so with no probs. Rototrim is key! If anyone wants to send me their 8x10 to cut down, I'll do it for Starbuck's cards. 1 cappuccino per box. Starbuck's cappuccino is crap but it keeps me awake. And... yeah, I plan on getting in on the yearly Ilford order for sure! I have it in my calendar to order from Fred around June 1.

[ndg]

I cut down Xray film all the time with a rotatrim. It is convenient since I do it under a red safelight. Cutting film in total darkness is something i have not attempted yet. With the price of film, I'll hate to get it wrong and destroy some sheets. Would you care to share your process?

I've been cutting down 8x10 the last few months, 50 sheets or so with no probs. Rototrim is key! If anyone wants to send me their 8x10 to cut down, I'll do it for Starbuck's cards. 1 cappuccino per box. Starbuck's cappuccino is crap but it keeps me awake. And... yeah, I plan on getting in on the yearly Ilford order for sure! I have it in my calendar to order from Fred around June 1.

[StoneNYC]

I cut down Xray film all the time with a rotatrim. It is convenient since I do it under a red safelight. Cutting film in total darkness is something i have not attempted yet. With the price of film, I'll hate to get it wrong and destroy some sheets. Would you care to share your process?

He cuts Color film, so he doesn't use a safelight ;)

[Tin Can]

Cutting in full dark is not hard if you sit down in a chair, arrange it all carefully, use taped down cutting guides and practice in light with eyes closed.

The biggest thing is to relax and not sweat or get greasy hands.

I cut one direction and put the pieces in a light tight box, change my taped down guide and make the second cut.

Really no worse than winding roll film on reels in total dark.

If you can develop film in trays or tanks in total dark, you can also cut film.

[Larry Kellogg]

I've been cutting down 8x10 the last few months, 50 sheets or so with no probs. Rototrim is key! If anyone wants to send me their 8x10 to cut down, I'll do it for Starbuck's cards. 1 cappuccino per box. Starbuck's cappuccino is crap but it keeps me awake. And... yeah, I plan on getting in on the yearly Ilford order for sure! I have it in my calendar to order from Fred around June 1.

I might take you up on this offer, it's very kind of you, although I'm sure I could get the hang of it. PM me your address.

I have some old stock 4x10 Bergger ISO 200, panchromatic film, expired in 2009. Any thoughts on going out and shooting that stuff and developing it? I usually use HC-110, dilution F, 15 minutes for my Tri-X 5x7 negs.

I never seem to make it out the door with the 4x10 setup, always the 5x7 setup.

[Christopher Barrett]

Ditto on Randy, I spent so many years tray processing sheet film and loading stainless reels that I'm comfortable handling film in the dark. The important things are to lay everything out in a way that makes sense and within easy reach. Then, do it all the same way next time. An habitual approach becomes key. I have an adjustable hard stop on my rotatrimmer, so it's just a matter of making sure film is lined up tight into that corner.

The only drag is you lose the notches on half your sheets, but doesn't really affect me as long as the emulsions are always facing up.

Larry, developer is so much cheaper than film that it's worth giving that Bergger a test. PM'd you my info.

CB

[Larry Kellogg]

Thanks Christopher. I'll go out and shoot the Bergger. Do I rate it at box speed?

I'm pretty good at loading metal reels, and hangers, but just lack the experience cutting down 8x10. It's expensive to ruin sheets of that stuff, so I have no problem helping out with coffee.

How do people develop their 4x10? I guess tray processing is the only way. It's an awfully long, floppy negative.

[StoneNYC]

Thanks Christopher. I'll go out and shoot the Bergger. Do I rate it at box speed?

I'm pretty good at loading metal reels, and hangers, but just lack the experience cutting down 8x10. It's expensive to ruin sheets of that stuff, so I have no problem helping out with coffee.

How do people develop their 4x10? I guess tray processing is the only way. It's an awfully long, floppy negative.

You can use a JOBO 3005 just like with 8x10 or to be extra safe use a 3000 series print drum inside the "long" way with the retainer clips.

[Larry Kellogg]

You can use a JOBO 3005 just like with 8x10 or to be extra safe use a 3000 series print drum inside the "long" way with the retainer clips.

I don't own a JOBO and I don't shoot 8x10 film. I'm not crazy. ;-) I drew the line at 5x7, or, well, 4x10. I think I'll make a loop out of the strip and attach the ends to a metal kitchen utensil of some kind and plunge the film into an 8x10 tank of chemistry, in the dark, of course.

[Bob Mann]

I don't own a JOBO and I don't shoot 8x10 film. I'm not crazy. ;-) I drew the line at 5x7, or, well, 4x10. I think I'll make a loop out of the strip and attach the ends to a metal kitchen utensil of some kind and plunge the film into an 8x10 tank of chemistry, in the dark, of course.

I made some 4x10 hangers for a dip tank by cutting the bottom off, shortening the sides and using epoxy to reglue the bottom back on. They work fine, look kind of ugly, and I use them in some shallow stainless trays used for food steam tables so I don't need a full 8x10 dip tank full of chemistry.

[Larry Kellogg]

I made some 4x10 hangers for a dip tank by cutting the bottom off, shortening the sides and using epoxy to reglue the bottom back on. They work fine, look kind of ugly, and I use them in some shallow stainless trays used for food steam tables so I don't need a full 8x10 dip tank full of chemistry.

Great idea, Bob! I don't have any 8x10 hangers but I'll get a few and take a hacksaw to them. ;-) Ugly doesn't bother me. I might have to get a shallow tray, or I just have to make sure to top off the tanks in the lab where I intern.

Eugene Smith used to wrap two rolls of 35mm, base to base, on one metal reel. That man was a master.

[Bob Mann]

Here is what it looks like - 126062

[StoneNYC]

I don't own a JOBO and I don't shoot 8x10 film. I'm not crazy. ;-) I drew the line at 5x7, or, well, 4x10. I think I'll make a loop out of the strip and attach the ends to a metal kitchen utensil of some kind and plunge the film into an 8x10 tank of chemistry, in the dark, of course.

Using 5x7 or 4x10 to me is crazier... Lol, odd formats that are barely supported with limited supply or having to cut your own vs common sizes.

:)

[Larry Kellogg]

Using 5x7 or 4x10 to me is crazier... Lol, odd formats that are barely supported with limited supply or having to cut your own vs common sizes.

:)

I haven't had a problem getting 5x7 film, it is readily available, even if I have to order from Keith Canham once or twice a year. The 4x10 I could just contact print, or borrow an 8x10 enlarger. Chris cuts film for coffee.

The trouble with 8x10 is the increased cost of the film, the heavier and longer lenses required, the heavier camera, the bigger and heavier tripod, the bigger enlarger required, the larger film holders which are a pain to carry in the field, the problem of getting light leaks when you accidentally press in the center of the dark slide, the pain of developing sheets of film that size, etc.

I shot an 8x10 on the street in New York when I took a class with Richard Renaldi at ICP. No thanks. I could barely carry the camera and tripod a block, and that was with someone else carrying the film holders. Richard admitted that he didn't walk around with the thing either, and Richard is a big, strong guy. So, I had to put down the camera and chase after subjects. I can carry my 5.5 pound Wisner 5x7 all day long and not kill myself. Sure, amazing work has been done with 8x10 cameras, but I think it's more for the studio. 5x7 is a sweet spot, as it offers a different aspect ratio than 4x5/8x10, and gives a noticeable increase in quality.

That's my opinion, anyway. I've thought it through quite carefully. ;-)

[Christopher Barrett]

I'm processing my stuff in Jobo 3005 drums. They were pricey, but Man, developing is so easy and consistent. I just finished a new batch of 4x10 C-41 10 minutes ago. I've done about 40 sheets of Color and B&W since I got the 4x10 in October and they've all been flawless.

[Larry Kellogg]

I'm processing my stuff in Jobo 3005 drums. They were pricey, but Man, developing is so easy and consistent. I just finished a new batch of 4x10 C-41 10 minutes ago. I've done about 40 sheets of Color and B&W since I got the 4x10 in October and they've all been flawless.

I just know we're going to get into trouble for having a discussion on a WTB thread. ;-) I wish there was a way to spawn a parallel discussion thread automatically.

Chris, do you have a $2000 Jobo processor or are you rolling by hand? I haven't done C-41 myself. Aren't the chemicals nasty to deal with? What precautions have to be taken? I could save quite a bit of money developing my 5x7 Portra 400 shots, but I'm not sure if I want to tackle color film processing.

That reminds me that I have to go to one of the few remaining color labs in New York and print some of my latest color work on a processor. ICP has a Kreonite, and another place has a Colex?, while a third has I don't know what. Color correction is always so tricky with those gels.

[StoneNYC]

I haven't had a problem getting 5x7 film, it is readily available, even if I have to order from Keith Canham once or twice a year. The 4x10 I could just contact print, or borrow an 8x10 enlarger. Chris cuts film for coffee.

The trouble with 8x10 is the increased cost of the film, the heavier and longer lenses required, the heavier camera, the bigger and heavier tripod, the bigger enlarger required, the larger film holders which are a pain to carry in the field, the problem of getting light leaks when you accidentally press in the center of the dark slide, the pain of developing sheets of film that size, etc.

I shot an 8x10 on the street in New York when I took a class with Richard Renaldi at ICP. No thanks. I could barely carry the camera and tripod a block, and that was with someone else carrying the film holders. Richard admitted that he didn't walk around with the thing either, and Richard is a big, strong guy. So, I had to put down the camera and chase after subjects. I can carry my 5.5 pound Wisner 5x7 all day long and not kill myself. Sure, amazing work has been done with 8x10 cameras, but I think it's more for the studio. 5x7 is a sweet spot, as it offers a different aspect ratio than 4x5/8x10, and gives a noticeable increase in quality.

That's my opinion, anyway. I've thought it through quite carefully. ;-)

You can get Provia100f or Velvia50 or Velvia100 or Acros100 in 5x7??

Canham can't even make that happen... I THINK he might be able to get Ektar100/Portra160/Portra400 in 5x7 maybe? But I don't shoot any of those.

I have a Chamonix8x10, its super light, I don't have any trouble carrying it, feels as light as my Toyo45a.

I like the ratio of 5x7 and if it were available in more formats than 8x10 I would probably stick with that, but I cut a dark slide in half and now can make two 4x10 images on a single 8x10 sheet which I don't even cut, so it is easier to process and handle and store as it fits in the standard holder/tank/sleeves etc.

But we all work differently...

[Larry Kellogg]

You can get Provia100f or Velvia50 or Velvia100 or Acros100 in 5x7??

Velvia makes me nauseous, LOL, I don't shoot chromes, the Cibachrome process is just about dead, and I don't scan and print color digitally. I print color in one of the three remaining color darkrooms in NYC. I'm mainly a black and white shooter but see my next comment.



Canham can't even make that happen... I THINK he might be able to get Ektar100/Portra160/Portra400 in 5x7 maybe? But I don't shoot any of those.


There is no "might", he regularly delivers all the films you've mentioned in 5x7 format. You just have to subscribe to his Facebook page and commit to buying when he puts together a minimum order. The days of just walking into B&H and buying any large format film are disappearing, and I can see that happening for the 8x10 size as well. I'm shooting 5x7 Portra 400, I absolutely love that film.



I have a Chamonix8x10, its super light, I don't have any trouble carrying it, feels as light as my Toyo45a.


Ok, quantify "super light", LOL. Weigh your camera and tripod, and I'll do the same. I almost went for the Ritter 8x10, but, all of the other stuff that goes with 8x10 is just too heavy for me. You have a car, you drive, get out, and shoot, I'm assuming. I don't own a car, and carry everything wherever I'm shooting. I carried my Wisner 5x7 up and down mountains in France. all day long, and was ok. An 8x10 would have put me in the hospital.

By the way, I tried shooting from a car and really didn't like it. It's kind of a pain, with too much sitting and not enough movement. I'd rather walk ten miles with my Wisner, and stop and shoot whenever I feel the urge.



I like the ratio of 5x7 and if it were available in more formats than 8x10 I would probably stick with that, but I cut a dark slide in half and now can make two 4x10 images on a single 8x10 sheet which I don't even cut, so it is easier to process and handle and store as it fits in the standard holder/tank/sleeves etc.


Well, "standard" is in the eye of the beholder. The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. ;-) I was talking to a commercial photographer, the guy I bought my Durst 138 from, who worked with 5x7 for many years. There are a lot of things that fall into place when you pick 5x7. I have 5x7 tanks (less chemistry than 8x10 tanks), hangers, archival sleeves, the enlarger, etc etc. I would speculate that 4x5 is more of a standard than either 8x10 or 5x7.

Sure, Weston contact printed from 8x10 negatives, I know, I know, but that's not the only way to work. How large are you actually going to enlarge to? I've seen 20x30 prints from 35mm that hold up. It's the shot more than the size of the film. I don't see the overwhelming need to go to 8x10 for enlargement, as I don't really plan on printing larger than 16x20, and a 5x7 negative is big enough for that, or even 30x40, and beyond.

A 4x10 camera is a small, light piece of gear. I have a Wisner 4x10 back adaptor that fits my 4x5 tech field. I just don't seem to get out the door enough to shoot the thing but perhaps that will change.



But we all work differently...

Yeah, I agree, we all work differently, and all methods are valid. There are advantages and disadvantages to different methods, that's all I'm saying.

[ndg]

Guys, i like the way you hijacked the thread. It kept it current and made it visible. Thanks but I already got a box from a kind member! Maybe you could create a new thread about 4x10 photography.

[Christopher Barrett]

Yeah, Larry... after doing a few batches on a Besseler roller base, I bought a new CPP3. I'll probably have to soup a thousand sheets of film to recoup my investment, but I love being able to come home from shooting and have negs on the scanner a couple hours later.

[Larry Kellogg]

Guys, i like the way you hijacked the thread. It kept it current and made it visible. Thanks but I already got a box from a kind member! Maybe you could create a new thread about 4x10 photography.

Do you think the moderators could move this thread to one of the discussion areas? Would you mind? I think there is some good stuff in here. Stone and I have reached a point of mutual misunderstanding. ;-)

[Larry Kellogg]

Yeah, Larry... after doing a few batches on a Besseler roller base, I bought a new CPP3. I'll probably have to soup a thousand sheets of film to recoup my investment, but I love being able to come home from shooting and have negs on the scanner a couple hours later.

Yikes, $3200. One of my instructors at ICP tried to convince the school to buy a JOBO so he could teach a class on using it. The school said no. Everybody watches their pennies, I guess. I don't shoot enough color film to justify a CPP3.

[Tin Can]

Do you think the moderators could move this thread to one of the discussion areas? Would you mind? I think there is some good stuff in here. Stone and I have reached a point of mutual misunderstanding. ;-)

Only the OP can move or close a thread by directly contacting the mods with the black triangle.

This is a bad thread to move with this title.

[ndg]

Do you think the moderators could move this thread to one of the discussion areas? Would you mind? I think there is some good stuff in here. Stone and I have reached a point of mutual misunderstanding. ;-)

Larry, start a new thread in the "Darkroom: Film..." section and continue your discussions there.

[StoneNYC]

Velvia makes me nauseous, LOL, I don't shoot chromes, the Cibachrome process is just about dead, and I don't scan and print color digitally. I print color in one of the three remaining color darkrooms in NYC. I'm mainly a black and white shooter but see my next comment.



There is no "might", he regularly delivers all the films you've mentioned in 5x7 format. You just have to subscribe to his Facebook page and commit to buying when he puts together a minimum order. The days of just walking into B&H and buying any large format film are disappearing, and I can see that happening for the 8x10 size as well. I'm shooting 5x7 Portra 400, I absolutely love that film.



Ok, quantify "super light", LOL. Weigh your camera and tripod, and I'll do the same. I almost went for the Ritter 8x10, but, all of the other stuff that goes with 8x10 is just too heavy for me. You have a car, you drive, get out, and shoot, I'm assuming. I don't own a car, and carry everything wherever I'm shooting. I carried my Wisner 5x7 up and down mountains in France. all day long, and was ok. An 8x10 would have put me in the hospital.

By the way, I tried shooting from a car and really didn't like it. It's kind of a pain, with too much sitting and not enough movement. I'd rather walk ten miles with my Wisner, and stop and shoot whenever I feel the urge.



Well, "standard" is in the eye of the beholder. The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. ;-) I was talking to a commercial photographer, the guy I bought my Durst 138 from, who worked with 5x7 for many years. There are a lot of things that fall into place when you pick 5x7. I have 5x7 tanks (less chemistry than 8x10 tanks), hangers, archival sleeves, the enlarger, etc etc. I would speculate that 4x5 is more of a standard than either 8x10 or 5x7.

Sure, Weston contact printed from 8x10 negatives, I know, I know, but that's not the only way to work. How large are you actually going to enlarge to? I've seen 20x30 prints from 35mm that hold up. It's the shot more than the size of the film. I don't see the overwhelming need to go to 8x10 for enlargement, as I don't really plan on printing larger than 16x20, and a 5x7 negative is big enough for that, or even 30x40, and beyond.

A 4x10 camera is a small, light piece of gear. I have a Wisner 4x10 back adaptor that fits my 4x5 tech field. I just don't seem to get out the door enough to shoot the thing but perhaps that will change.



Yeah, I agree, we all work differently, and all methods are valid. There are advantages and disadvantages to different methods, that's all I'm saying.

Just to reply, no I don't shoot from the car (I do but not mainly) I mainly hike for 3-10 days at a time through the woods, that's why I bought an ultra light Chamonix 8x10 and not a cheap 8x10 that's heavier. Again my Toyo45a was about 8.5lbs and my Chaminix is 8.5lbs so really it's not a huge difference, yes the holders take up more space/weight I agree.

I use 260ml of chemistry per 5 sheets of 8x10 which isn't bad.

Yes 20x24 is around the biggest normally, 35mm would have a completely different look, 4x5 would be ok for some stuff, but that added detail of 8x10 is excellent for me and my own goals.

I dislike C-41 I don't like the way it looks when scanned and unfortunately no one is teaching color enlarging anymore, as in even photo degree programs don't teach it. So I scan color, and I find the E-6 looks better scanned TO ME. And that's all that matters.

Canham doesn't do fuji only kodak.

I do like 5x7 just like 8x10 better.

Since the OP solved his search problem, I feel it's ok to post this. Sorry OP for the other interjections.

[Larry Kellogg]

This is my last post on this thread, I just wanted to point out one inaccuracy in what was said.



I dislike C-41 I don't like the way it looks when scanned and unfortunately no one is teaching color enlarging anymore, as in even photo degree programs don't teach it. So I scan color, and I find the E-6 looks better scanned TO ME. And that's all that matters.

This is not true, ICP teaches classes in color enlarging. Bill Armstrong is the instructor, and he's an excellent color printer. He has work being exhibited at the Vatican right now, if I recall correctly. ICP has a Kreonite machine, My Own Color Lab on West 27th St. rents time and has a Colex? machine (http://myowncolorlab.com), and LuxLab at 133 Chrystie Street (http://luxlab.com/pricelist) also rents time in their color darkrooms. The boys at My Own Color Lab will custom cut the best Kodak paper for you, they have a machine, you don't have to use that inferior Fuji Crystal Archive stuff.

Here is the course listing for Bill Armstrong's class which starts on January 28th:

https://registration.icp.edu/wconnect/ace/CourseStatus.awp?&course=15WCEFC002

I know people who have taken this class seven times. So, there are alternatives to scanning and printing digitally when dealing with color.

Ok, I'm done.

[StoneNYC]

This is my last post on this thread, I just wanted to point out one inaccuracy in what was said.



This is not true, ICP teaches classes in color enlarging. Bill Armstrong is the instructor, and he's an excellent color printer. He has work being exhibited at the Vatican right now, if I recall correctly. ICP has a Kreonite machine, My Own Color Lab on West 27th St. rents time and has a Colex? machine (http://myowncolorlab.com), and LuxLab at 133 Chrystie Street (http://luxlab.com/pricelist) also rents time in their color darkrooms. The boys at My Own Color Lab will custom cut the best Kodak paper for you, they have a machine, you don't have to use that inferior Fuji Crystal Archive stuff.

Here is the course listing for Bill Armstrong's class which starts on January 28th:

https://registration.icp.edu/wconnect/ace/CourseStatus.awp?&course=15WCEFC002

I know people who have taken this class seven times. So, there are alternatives to scanning and printing digitally when dealing with color.

Ok, I'm done.

I didn't mean EVERYWHERE, but no college in my state for sure, probably RISDI and fancy expensive art colleges maybe, no where in Connecticut for sure.

[Tin Can]

4 minute prints are faster than digital.

[Larry Kellogg]

I didn't mean EVERYWHERE, but no college in my state for sure, probably RISDI and fancy expensive art colleges maybe, no where in Connecticut for sure.

Ah, Stone, you're going to drive me around the bend. I gave you three color labs, and a course you could enroll in. Aren't you within striking distance of New York City? Connecticut isn't far away, I grew up there. There is a woman in the black and white lab where I intern who comes down from Poughkeepsie every week. She wants to become a better printer, so she makes the extra effort.

I absolutely agree with Randy, four minute prints from a color processor beats waiting for a print head on an inkjet printer. The day somebody bought my Epson 3880, which I lost a ton of money on, was a good day for me. If you print at ICP, you can always hang out and talk to other photographers while you wait for your prints. It's social, the same goes for their black and white darkrooms.

Use what we got while we got it.

[Tin Can]

Ah, Stone, you're going to drive me around the bend. I gave you three color labs, and a course you could enroll in. Aren't you within striking distance of New York City? Connecticut isn't far away, I grew up there. There is a woman in the black and white lab where I intern who comes down from Poughkeepsie every week. She wants to become a better printer, so she makes the extra effort.

I absolutely agree with Randy, four minute prints from a color processor beats waiting for a print head on an inkjet printer. The day somebody bought my Epson 3880, which I lost a ton of money on, was a good day for me. If you print at ICP, you can always hang out and talk to other photographers while you wait for your prints. It's social, the same goes for their black and white darkrooms.

Use what we got while we got it.

Funny, I gave away my CANON PRO 1 printer. I have a problem with all digital printers. Wasted way too much time and money on them over the last 18 years. No more digital printers for me. If I want a digi print, I do mail order. I don't want too many.

[Larry Kellogg]

Funny, I gave away my CANON PRO 1 printer. I have a problem with all digital printers. Wasted way too much time and money on them over the last 18 years. No more digital printers for me. If I want a digi print, I do mail order. I don't want too many.

I'm with you, the day I print digitally will be the day they pry my cold dead hands from the focus knob of an enlarger.

The guy who bought my 3880, for something like $300, was amazed that he got such a great deal. All I could think was, "It's your headache now.".

[Tin Can]

I'm with you, the day I print digitally will be the day they pry my cold dead hands from the focus knob of an enlarger.

The guy who bought my 3880, for something like $300, was amazed that he got such a great deal. All I could think was, "It's your headache now.".

Exactly!

[Corran]

LOL, I have a friend who teaches color printing/enlarging at a community college. Sheesh.

[StoneNYC]

Ah, Stone, you're going to drive me around the bend. I gave you three color labs, and a course you could enroll in. Aren't you within striking distance of New York City? Connecticut isn't far away, I grew up there. There is a woman in the black and white lab where I intern who comes down from Poughkeepsie every week. She wants to become a better printer, so she makes the extra effort.

I absolutely agree with Randy, four minute prints from a color processor beats waiting for a print head on an inkjet printer. The day somebody bought my Epson 3880, which I lost a ton of money on, was a good day for me. If you print at ICP, you can always hang out and talk to other photographers while you wait for your prints. It's social, the same goes for their black and white darkrooms.

Use what we got while we got it.

Ok so if I spend 2 hours on some trains to go into the city yes I could technically get there but 1. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO PRINT IN COLOR and 2. Trying to learn while renting a lab would cost a shit ton when I don't have a teacher.

It's easy when you know, but I barely know B&W printing. I just started, give me some time... A few years...

Also as a side note when talk to the professors at the college I was going to, they ALL said not to bother learning color, they said scanning and ink jet was better than color printing, that the fuji crystal Archive wasn't designed for enlargers and when they tried teaching with it, even the teachers weren't happy with the prints they made and decided scanning and printing with a printer was better.

Such is life.

[Larry Kellogg]

Ok so if I spend 2 hours on some trains to go into the city yes I could technically get there but 1. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO PRINT IN COLOR and 2. Trying to learn while renting a lab would cost a shit ton when I don't have a teacher.

It's easy when you know, but I barely know B&W printing. I just started, give me some time... A few years...

Also as a side note when talk to the professors at the college I was going to, they ALL said not to bother learning color, they said scanning and ink jet was better than color printing, that the fuji crystal Archive wasn't designed for enlargers and when they tried teaching with it, even the teachers weren't happy with the prints they made and decided scanning and printing with a printer was better.

Such is life.

I think those professors were wrong. They also might not have had an eye for color either, LOL, so that's why their prints were poor. It's just like all the people who try to convince me that inkjet prints are better than silver gelatin prints so I should throw away all of my darkroom equipment. I believe my own eyes. The prints made with different processes are different, and, frankly, I think the older processes yield better looking prints.

It's not a waste of time to take a class in order to learn color theory, I gave you a pointer to a class so that you could learn color printing. Color printing is easy, color correction is hard, and I certainly don't claim to be a master at it, although I have taken Bill's class. Still, after taking the class, I can quickly whip out twenty contact prints of 5x7 negatives in a couple of hours. I hate scanning, and find it tedious work.

Color printing is a completely dry process, and you work in complete darkness. You set your Yellow and Magenta filters on the enlarger to what they recommend on the box of paper, or the numbers your friends give you as a good starting point, and you make a test strip. You feed the paper into the machine emulsion side down at ICP, emulsion side up at My Own Color Lab. You figure that out by feel, the back is rougher than the emulsion, or you touch the corner of the paper to your lip, if it sticks, it's the emulsion side. After that, you go out of the darkroom and wait for your print, which emerges from the machine completely finished in about four or five minutes.

Then, you pick an exposure and make a print. You use gel filters which you whip in front of your eyes to see how adding a certain number of points of yellow or magenta will change your print. Keep track of the Y-M numbers, write them down on masking tape with a Sharpie and stick them on the back of the print, AFTER processing. The printing is easy, the color tweaking is hard. If you get a good exposure and are just making contact prints, you can just keep exposing and feeding the machine, without going out to wait for each print to emerge.

Oh yeah, if you work in a color darkroom at ICP, or anywhere else, you must call out to others in the dark when you move to your color station, the processor, or the door. Otherwise, there will be collisions.

Here is a color printing class on one sheet of paper:

126161

This is THE book for color printing, available for $.01 plus $3.99 shipping: http://www.amazon.com/Color-Photography-A-Working-Manual/dp/0316373168

I wish you could see some of the prints I've made on the Kreonite, they're quite amazing. Like I said, you can get the better Kodak paper cut from rolls from the guys at My Own Color Lab. Fuji Crystal Archive is a darkroom paper, it's just a little thin for my tastes. So, use it for contact sheets. B&H still sells it. I don't find $13-15 an hour to be a ton of money to print color. You've inspired me to go back and print color.

I've worked my way into a bit of a corner where I need to use a 5x7 or 8x10 enlarger with a color head for my 5x7 color negs, and ICP's 8x10 enlarger is in the black and white darkroom, although few people use it. My friend says he'll close off that darkroom with a temporary door on some off hours so I can print my 5x7 negs on that machine. That's why I rent time in other places to print 5x7 color from Portra 400. For up to 4x5, I can use ICP's color darkroom. If you volunteer as a teacher's assistant at ICP, you can accumulate hours to use in the darkrooms. Otherwise, they charge $10 an hour for students, and don't let people off the street use the gear.

Oh, yeah, no test strips smaller than 8x10! Small strips can get stuck in the rollers and break the machine!

I apologize for not having moved to a new thread. I wish we could move this thread and rename it.

[StoneNYC]

I think those professors were wrong. They also might not have had an eye for color either, LOL, so that's why their prints were poor. It's just like all the people who try to convince me that inkjet prints are better than silver gelatin prints so I should throw away all of my darkroom equipment. I believe my own eyes. The prints made with different processes are different, and, frankly, I think the older processes yield better looking prints.

It's not a waste of time to take a class in order to learn color theory, I gave you a pointer to a class so that you could learn color printing. Color printing is easy, color correction is hard, and I certainly don't claim to be a master at it, although I have taken Bill's class. Still, after taking the class, I can quickly whip out twenty contact prints of 5x7 negatives in a couple of hours. I hate scanning, and find it tedious work.

Color printing is a completely dry process, and you work in complete darkness. You set your Yellow and Magenta filters on the enlarger to what they recommend on the box of paper, or the numbers your friends give you as a good starting point, and you make a test strip. You feed the paper into the machine emulsion side down at ICP, emulsion side up at My Own Color Lab. You figure that out by feel, the back is rougher than the emulsion, or you touch the corner of the paper to your lip, if it sticks, it's the emulsion side. After that, you go out of the darkroom and wait for your print, which emerges from the machine completely finished in about four or five minutes.

Then, you pick an exposure and make a print. You use gel filters which you whip in front of your eyes to see how adding a certain number of points of yellow or magenta will change your print. Keep track of the Y-M numbers, write them down on masking tape with a Sharpie and stick them on the back of the print, AFTER processing. The printing is easy, the color tweaking is hard. If you get a good exposure and are just making contact prints, you can just keep exposing and feeding the machine, without going out to wait for each print to emerge.

Oh yeah, if you work in a color darkroom at ICP, or anywhere else, you must call out to others in the dark when you move to your color station, the processor, or the door. Otherwise, there will be collisions.

Here is a color printing class on one sheet of paper:

126161

This is THE book for color printing, available for $.01 plus $3.99 shipping: http://www.amazon.com/Color-Photography-A-Working-Manual/dp/0316373168

I wish you could see some of the prints I've made on the Kreonite, they're quite amazing. Like I said, you can get the better Kodak paper cut from rolls from the guys at My Own Color Lab. Fuji Crystal Archive is a darkroom paper, it's just a little thin for my tastes. So, use it for contact sheets. B&H still sells it. I don't find $13-15 an hour to be a ton of money to print color. You've inspired me to go back and print color.

I've worked my way into a bit of a corner where I need to use a 5x7 or 8x10 enlarger with a color head for my 5x7 color negs, and ICP's 8x10 enlarger is in the black and white darkroom, although few people use it. My friend says he'll close off that darkroom with a temporary door on some off hours so I can print my 5x7 negs on that machine. That's why I rent time in other places to print 5x7 color from Portra 400. For up to 4x5, I can use ICP's color darkroom. If you volunteer as a teacher's assistant at ICP, you can accumulate hours to use in the darkrooms. Otherwise, they charge $10 an hour for students, and don't let people off the street use the gear.

Oh, yeah, no test strips smaller than 8x10! Small strips can get stuck in the rollers and break the machine!

I apologize for not having moved to a new thread. I wish we could move this thread and rename it.

Larry,

Please don't get me wrong, when I went to the school originally, I specifically asked them about color printing and they said that they didn't teach it anymore but that they would consider letting me do something on the side and giving you pointers as they still had the 8 x 10 color processor, but they only had an 8 x 10 color processor, they didn't have anything bigger...

And again although New York City is in my name I do not live there, I live in Connecticut and traveling into the city for a class is just not something that I have the time or ability or money to do right now.

Perhaps someday, but I want you to know that I appreciate the time you put into trying to share the information and I very much appreciate your enthusiasm toward color printing, something that I do want to learn about.

But honestly, The biggest obstacle is that I do not shoot color negative film, and they no longer make the proper internegative film, I'm told by Ron Mowrey that Portra160 is pretty good and a substitute to use as internegative film, but that also is wrought with errors and will take time to learn how to do that and it's costly. I really don't like the look I get with color negative film, I much prefer the oversaturated look of Velvia50.

Though I do also enjoy Provia100f for some work as well.

So, that's the biggest obstacle.

Anyway thanks, and OP, thanks for letting us ramble on.

[Louis Pacilla]

COME ON GUYS this is the FOR SELL section. Please don't make this another 6 page discussion about 4x10 film choice & processing. There's a section just for that. We have ONLY ONE front page to buy & sell.

[Larry Kellogg]

I have asked the original poster to ask that this thread be moved out of here. Sorry, Louis, you are right.

[Oren Grad]

Moved from the For Sale / Wanted forum. If you'd like to continue, please keep it on-topic. (Handling 4x10 film, that is.)