DPL Scanner software from Aztek for12 bit capture drum scanners

[onnect17]

Not sure if it's the lack of technical background or a skillful sales rep but I noticed a few Premier owners/fans repeatedly overstate the scanner and software capabilities and I want to make sure members are aware.

Let me start saying I enjoy working with the howteks. There great scanners.
All the models acquire data at 12 bit resolution. No 14, or 16, just 12. Nothing wrong with it. No matter what format the data is converted later still 12 bits are significant. This is clear in the specs in the back of the Premier User Guide (part number AZM092-04 Rev.B), section 7-3. No so clear in their web site. The only way I can imagine to expand the dynamic range is to get a second scan with the log mode enabled and merge/tune the files later.

Another claim is related to the access by DPL to the A/D converter (gain, voltages, etc.). All the parameters are controlled by the VDC module, not the app, and are set by the firmware during calibration. The only options to the app are to select the Log amp (instead of linear) or to populate the LUT. There also an overwrite to change the white point via the console in some models.

Regarding the number of apertures. The Premier user guide correctly lists the 17 apertures. Stills the specs in the web site shows 18. Same thing with the scanning area. The manual reads the correct scanning area (11.5"x12"). The site shows 12"x12".

I hope somebody in Aztek will take the time in some point to correct/clarify the info out there.

[Lenny Eiger]

The number of apertures is meaningless. There are only 4 or 54 of them that are useful.

Most film can not be scanned at 6, min is about 8. That leaves 8, 10, 13, 16 and 19.

Lenny

[onnect17]

I agree but that's not the point. I am referring to the inconsistency in the specs. Not reason for having different info between the Users Manual and the web site.

Taking about apertures, I had a similar experience with the first d4000 I purchased. 6 microns was by far too noisy so I used 13 microns and the effective scanning resolution is 2000 dpi instead of 4000. Nowadays is a different story. Power and alignment of the light path, updated model and condition of the PMTs got the Howteks where they should be. Even the 3 microns with the premier can be used.

Another part to check in the case of the HR8000 and the Premier is the aperture wheel. It's the perfect place to grow mold (dark and cold) and for some reason the rough surface in the wheel does not help. I remember the first time I pulled it out, looking under the microscope, I could see half of the 3 microns aperture blocked buy the mold. I am not saying that every scanner out there has some growing inside but it should be inspected.

[sanking]

Another claim is related to the access by DPL to the A/D converter (gain, voltages, etc.). All the parameters are controlled by the VDC module, not the app, and are set by the firmware during calibration. The only options to the app are to select the Log amp (instead of linear) or to populate the LUT. There also an overwrite to change the white point via the console in some models.



This claim definitely needs some clarification/proof from a person with the technical expertise to offer real insight.

Sandy

[onnect17]

This claim definitely needs some clarification/proof from a person with the technical expertise to offer real insight.

Sandy

Sandy,
I also would love to hear also the details from the guys that wrote the code, but more for the corporate drama associated with projects of this kind. That goes back to early 90's.

The reason I think the VRef in the ADC should not be touched after calibration is based on the working principle in which the design of the hardware is based. That includes a chain of at least 6 blocks, many not perfectly linear, including amplifiers and PMTs, which gain and offset is adjusted during calibration and recalculated/adjusted at the start of each raster line. Every step in the algorithm is detailed in patent 5'237'172.

When you run the FST app in the 4000 or 4500, the software needs to load a totally different firmware in the scanner to be able to handle and test each component directly.

If you are really, really interested in knowing, I can manage to wire the VAA and monitor the VRef.
Just for you, Sandy. :-)

[sanking]

Hi Armando,

Thank you so much for your tests of these Howtek systems. And I am interested in knowing, but unfortunately the electronic issues are well beyond my pay level!!

At this point I am still running the Howtek 7500 with Silverfast 6.6 on a Power PC MAC. I am happy with results but would consider DPL if I thought scan quality could be improved. So I pay close attention to your advice.

As for the claim in question, I have long suspected it could be similar to the beauty of the emperor's new clothes.

Best,

Sandy

[Lenny Eiger]

The only person who understood how everything was put together, Phil Lippincott, died a few years ago. His knowledge is gone.

I have done very well by DPL and people apparently like the scans, often saying things like they haven't seen scans from other places that were as good. Could it be the way I set up a scan, this piece of hardware, the software, are they just being nice (or hopeful)? Any of these things could point to this kind of comment.

I don't think you will find your answer. Aztek has done one thing very poorly, and that's to set their pricing on the high side. This pisses everyone off, and instead of looking for what the scanner will do (or the software) people have a tendency to look at what it won't do, or isn't doing. This
type of unhook this or unhook that to see what happens, to reverse engineer the thing, might be a fair process if it were done by people who were even-minded, vs looking to discredit.

You can not underestimate the contribution of a man like Phil Lippincott. He was a bit of a curmudgeon, to be sure, had strong and unpopular opinions, and was sometimes hard to understand, but his work goes all the way back to the MacBeth color chart, and his engineering can be seen, in some way, in almost every drum scanner. We would not have the kind of color control that we do now without him. He put his heart and soul into the building of the Premier, and the DPL software. No expense was spared. DPL was made to be amazing, as amazing as Phil knew how, and the contention that they just lied about the CMS feature, for marketing purposes, is not reasonable, at least not to me.

I am certain there are things in there that aren't being noticed, little choices that were made to adjust this or that part of the input, that don't makes sense, but just work, might be quite hidden, and do the job they said it would. Nothing is perfect, but every other software looks pretty simplistic by comparison to me. So, my answer is to give these guys their due. No, not everything, but at least most of it...

Lenny

[onnect17]

I never had the pleasure of meet him (Phil) but I am sure, based on his forum posts he liked the technical side and would enjoy to clarify many details in the scanner design without revealing too much. In that sense, we owe him to continue trying to improve the scanner in any way we can. I don't blame the guys in Aztek. They have a real business to manage and doing it good enough to survive when so many others are gone.

In the only part I disagree is "no expense was spare". Unless is Defense or Academic related there is always big pressure with costs. I can see it in the construction of all the scanners, specially when Howtek had the advantage in pricing ordering in quantities ten times what Aztek did. Just the aperture wheel would cost a grand nowadays. Aktek replaced the linear stage in the optical box with a trio of metal balls which is not the best solution over time. The list goes on and on.

Regarding DPL, I went back and read the product description again and it seems, if I understood correctly, they in fact improved the licensing. Now the product is divided in high resolution and legacy, ie hr8000+premier in one type and the 6500/7500/4500/4000 etc. in the other. That's a big step forward. Not a universal license but a lot closer.

The other "feature" (can't think of a better word) is the option to select the log mode. Trident behaves like is "always on" and (to my surprise) it seems Silverfast developers are not familiar with the basic Howtek scanner architecture and not aware there is a log amp in front of the ADC that can be used. Some users can really take advantage of the option and Aztec should list it in DPL specs.

In any case, Premier owners who paid big bucks to Aztek for a scanner deserve some kind of break with the new version, I think.

Just to be clear. I do not enjoy at all pointing out what it seems to me as a weakness or issue with this or that design or construction. I only see it as a possibility of improvement to obtain what we all want, a better image.

[onnect17]

Hi Armando,

Thank you so much for your tests of these Howtek systems. And I am interested in knowing, but unfortunately the electronic issues are well beyond my pay level!!

At this point I am still running the Howtek 7500 with Silverfast 6.6 on a Power PC MAC. I am happy with results but would consider DPL if I thought scan quality could be improved. So I pay close attention to your advice.

As for the claim in question, I have long suspected it could be similar to the beauty of the emperor's new clothes.

Best,

Sandy



Hey Sandy, I have a DPL 7.8 license for the 7500. I do not mind you trying it. Then you can decide if it's what you want.

Just borrow, OK? :-)

[Lenny Eiger]

In the only part I disagree is "no expense was spare". Unless is Defense or Academic related there is always big pressure with costs. I can see it in the construction of all the scanners, specially when Howtek had the advantage in pricing ordering in quantities ten times what Aztek did. Just the aperture wheel would cost a grand nowadays. Aktek replaced the linear stage in the optical box with a trio of metal balls which is not the best solution over time. The list goes on and on.

I spoke to Phil directly about this. "No expense spared" were his words. They went over every part, combined six boards into one main board (at no small expense, I imagine). Phil was very upset that Howtek did not follow his recommendations on the brass screw in the HR 8000 and made sure to update it to a steel one, then add whatever he calls ceramic bearings for the Premier. In describing his process, there weren't a few changes made here and there. They went after everything they could. He described it in detail to me and it took a very long time...

He had some number he had audited, for the creation of the DPL software, in the many millions.

It sounds like you have some great skills. It's too bad they didn't come to light back when Aztek was in the process of redesigning the machine that became the Premier. I am sure Phil would have gotten some enjoyment from speaking to you, and you would have been able to make a serious contribution.

However, you are starting with only half this story...

Further, you are casting aspersions at one of the best machines made for drum scanning. I am sure it has its faults. I am sure you could find design faults with each of the other scanners as well. I know someone who paid $80,000 for a Tango. Mine is quite a bit sharper than his, I have scans from both. (Who knows why, could be that Karl could fix it - or not.) Regardless, I am careful not to tell him that his expensive machine is a piece of junk. It's not, and even if it isn't quite as good, it can still make terrific scans. It has been said a million times that the best scans are made by the most talented operators, the machine is a very small factor.

Finally, I am trying to make a living from doing scans for others, or at least pay off a little of the scanner costs. Not so easy these days. Every time someone suggest that drum scans are not all they're made out to be, or the software is not quite what it should be, another person decides not to bother... Now, I don't want anyone to speak anything but the truth. I mean that. Yet I do think we need to be sensitive to others on this list.

Reading between the lines, it does sound to me that you have some issues with Aztek, and might enjoy seeing them taken down a notch. Unfortunately, we aren't going to get a better scanner from them, no matter what you come up with. They stopped making them last year. This is a world where no new drum scanners will be made. If you can make yours work better from your experiments, that's terrific. However, complaining about Aztek and their "unsupported claims", whatever they might be, or the veracity of either side, will get us nowhere.

Lenny

[Peter De Smidt]

I wouldn't characterize the comments here as "casting aspersions". The questions seem to be legitimate, which doesn're mean that there aren't good answers. No one is saying that the Aztek scanners aren't terrific scanners.

[onnect17]

Let me just say I have not issues whatsoever with Aztek but sure I think it's silly not to mention any ways to improve the scanner because somebody feelings can be hurt. Nobody is forced to read the posts or even open the scanner cover. When Andy tested the new PMTs (thanks Andy!) and he shared it with the forum I think it did a good thing. I even got in touch with Hamamatsu sales rep to get an idea of the prices in quantity. Wherever I found to be helpful with other owners I will share it. It's up to then to use the information or ignore it.

Regarding the consolidation of the boards, thank or blame Howtek. They were the one doing it, starting with the HR8000 or 5500, wherever you want to call it. To me a mistake. God knows how much Aztek will ask for a board. 6, 7, 8K ? To those Premier owners reading this, I would keep an eye on the those HR8000 coming to the market. You will shake your head if you see the HR8000 and the Premier open side by side. They are gold even in parts. Same message to the 4500 owners. D4000 share 90% of the hardware. If a card breaks just replace it with the similar card in the 4000 but keeping your firmware. Think that you can save some money and help other members in the forum sharing the extra 4500 you are holding for parts.

You said Aztek spent millions with DPL development. Being involved with similar projects in the past I can not get close to those numbers, even if they hired a full time developer at 6 figures per year (dont see the need for it, based on the complexity). The PC, Visual C++ 6.0, and ImageGear API costs are in the few thousands range only. The base API, the one used to handle the drum scanners, was already developed by Howtek. It's a DLL file named HTSAI10.DLL and should be in your DPL installation directory. Nothing added. Check the date in the file. BTW, it was distributed with a free license to use. You can download it from here:
ftp://12.70.252.178/Onyx-RAD/Howtek/Tool%20Kit/

Do I have questions about the Premier? Of course. Most are related to the myth involving the machine. It's treated for some the 8th wonder of the world. To me, based on the hardware, it is a glorified HR8000 that may or may not produce better scans. If I am lucky enough I will get the opportunity to find an HR8000 and finally compare them to the screw.

But a picture is better than one thousand words. Here's a shot of the optical box base plate in the Premier.

133354

On the left you can see 3 balls in a very simple way to support the part holding the main lens. On the right I placed a IKO linear stage for comparison purposes, similar to the one used in the 4000/4500/6500/7500(and very likely in the HR8000) scanners in same role. Although a less precise design, it could do the job decently for few years, unless of course, the diameter of balls is too close to the width of the openings used as rails and eventually the lens ends working too low and out of alignment and the focus mechanism getting extra stress. A different finish where the balls make better contact with the base and slightly bigger balls would last 20 years of intense use. I would also add some tape under the opening to avoid any metal debris ending on the pre-amp board.

Cost wise, a pack of 100 balls 1/4" in diameter would go for not more than 3 or 4 bucks. The linear stage could be over $100.
I am telling you, the "No expense spared" is hard to achieve business wise.

[Lenny Eiger]

I'm sorry. I don't buy it. I have made a lot of great scans, I've compared them with other drum scanners and as far as I am concerned, the proof is in the pudding. I won't say there aren't any design flaws, I'm sure there are, but the thing works, and works excellently.

You are also asking me to believe that these people that I have been friends with for a decade, that have done everything they can to assist me over the years, are basically boldfaced liars.

This is like playing chess with a pigeon. The pigeon will knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and declare himself the winner. You say you don't have any problem with Aztek in one sentence and in the next you are "Premier owners who paid big bucks to Aztek for a scanner deserve some kind of break."

FWIW, I have gotten a lot of breaks from them. They have been more than generous. I have spent many hours with them on the phone going over every little thing that happened - for years and years. They never asked me for a cent.

Reverse engineering doesn't supply all the the answers. The patents may not show final versions. Premier's have been making incredible scans for a long time, and so has DPL. The results speak for themselves.

You're basically complaining about how the scanner should be set up. The difference is that Aztek actually did it, completed it, and got lots of them out the door. I'm sure your ideas would make it better here and there, maybe, but there is no benefit anywhere to what you are doing. They aren't making new scanners, so all it amounts to is bellyaching, about something which you are only seeing only part of.

If you came up with an idea, such as - if you put a piece of duct tape over here - it will make a better scan, and that helps everyone, great. But so far all you have done is suggest that the Premier isn't what it should be, that it doesn't deserve its place in the market. However, the scans show something different.

I really don't like this conversation. I don't want to be here. If we are just going to go back and forth, I'm not really interested.

Lenny

[sanking]

"I really don't like this conversation. I don't want to be here. If we are just going to go back and forth, I'm not really interested."

For many owners of Howtek scanners, including me, Armando's comments and experimental work is very interesting. If you are not interested please feel free to ignore the information, and just shut up.

Thanks,

Sandy

[Lenny Eiger]

"I really don't like this conversation. I don't want to be here. If we are just going to go back and forth, I'm not really interested."

For many owners of Howtek scanners, including me, Armando's comments and experimental work is very interesting. If you are not interested please feel free to ignore the information, and just shut up.

Thanks,

Sandy

Yea, the only problem is that a lot of is incorrect. It isn't "information", it's based on conjecture. It doesn't help making better scans,, and won't lead to a better scanner. So its just misleading data. I won't say he's deliberately trying to mislead anyone, I don't know him personally.

Tim and I stood up for Aztek, as they don't have a voice here. There's no reason that their scanner and software should be maligned by people with not enough information.

If I stood up here and started telling people that carbon wasn't very archival, or that it could't get a decent black, you'd correct me in a minute. Rightly so. I've been wrong, and you have, so have plenty of others. I spoke to Aztek about Armando. He apparently asked them a lot of questions that would have revealed proprietary information. Apparently, he didn't want to buy anything from them, they were unsure what he wanted and they cut it off. Much of what I've read in this thread is that the scanner doesn't deserve its place, the software isn't any good, everything is too expensive, and Aztek basically lied about everything.

The data doesn't match the results.

Lenny

[Peter De Smidt]

No, Lenny, that's not what this thread is about. It's about understanding these scanners. All too soon there won't be any official support for them, just as the other scanner companies have gone away or cut off most support. Understanding these machines is to the benefit of all of us that might use them. Armando has been asking serious questions, and they show a pretty good understanding of the issues involved. You see attacks that aren't there, you mis-characterize people's positions, and your response amounts to "Aztek...Good! Anyone that suggests that any aspect of their products or information could be improved upon...Bad!" That's a couple of steps below informed conjecture.

[fishbulb]

I don't think Aztek is going to stop supporting the howtek models any time soon. I talked to them about this on the phone recently. They went to great lengths to make sure the old models were fully supported in the jump to x64 architecture with DPL8. If there was a time to drop support for them it would have been then, but they chose specifically to continue supporting them.

Further, the old models like the 4500 were also the best selling, and due to their longevity, are still a huge part of the service and support market for Aztek. Until the 4500s start kicking the bucket end masse, there is still money to be made in supporting them.

[Peter De Smidt]

I don't think Aztek is going to stop supporting the howtek models any time soon.

I hope you're right!

[onnect17]

Lenny, you can think and say wherever you want but don't ever try to put words in my mouth. I never said Aztek lied about anything. I that was the case, believe me, I would say it directly. If you care to read my initial post, I was trying to let others know how easy is misunderstand the specs of a scanner due to the lack of technical knowledge or just an aggressive marketing. That's the polite version.

If you knowledge of the specs of the Premier where so poor at the time of the investment, which based on your posts I think it's today, that's is your problem. It's not my fault you did not ask the right questions or they did not tell you upfront. I still think they are good scanners, ie HR8000/5500/Premier, but are just that, scanners with good and bad designed parts. There's not such a thing as "perfect scanner". I have absolutely not regrets spending 4k in the Premier, even when the seller said it was broken, that's how confident I was. Based on the irrational arguments I am reading in your posts in a very defensive posture and how bitter you sound it seems you paid "a little bit more".

Regarding Aztek. I have no idea to who you talked to, not that I care. I purchased in the past at least two DPL licenses, both 7.86. One for the 4000 and one for the 7500. The Premier came already with a license. I can post images of the invoices. I also purchase other supplies like mylar, lubricants, etc. Not Kami, not fan of it. I also spoke to Evan by phone and more than once. Also have many email exchanges for years that I can post copy of, including sending me a missing page of the Service Manual. Last email I sent inquiring about the manufacturing of the optical box got no answer so I decided to open it and exam it by myself. Learned a lot.

In every and each of my statements in the posts regarding the scanners I try to explain the rational behind, many times accompanied by images. All gathered directly from the hardware.
All we are getting from you is "you're wrong" or "Aztek told me so and so", like a kid.

One thing for sure. I will share any bit of information that get in my hands regarding the scanners with other owners here in the forum whether you like it or not.

I let the forum members to judge for themselves who's the one distributing misinformation.

[Lenny Eiger]

Lenny, you can think and say wherever you want but don't ever try to put words in my mouth. I never said Aztek lied about anything.

When Aztek says they spared no expense on the Premier, when they say they have a a certain number of bits, or whether they say they spent a large amount of money on the creation of their software, these are all things which you said could not be. That means they must be lying.


Based on the irrational arguments I am reading in your posts in a very defensive posture and how bitter you sound it seems you paid "a little bit more".

I'm not bitter, I'm not upset at what I paid for the scanner. I got a very nice deal from them, and its paid off, years ago. I have no regrets. I'm happy with the quality of my scans.


All we are getting from you is "you're wrong" or "Aztek told me so and so", like a kid.

I'm not going to say you don't have a good question or two (I think you do), but a question and an answer aren't the same thing. I have also taken the optical box apart, it doesn't mean I know what I am doing. These folks are friends of mine. It doesn't feel right when someone suggests that they didn't produce what they said they did. They're good people, and a small family business vs some faceless corporation. When words like "glorified 8000" come up in the conversation its clear that there's an attack. Personally, I refuse to believe that they did nothing to the 8000, especially after they spent the time to outline a pile of things they did. Today they explained what they accomplished in the software, in this latest version. They succeeded at something they've wanted to do for a very long time with the CMS functionality... It means you can create your own CMS profiles for your film, and then modify scans a bit on top. It's very cool. Of course, you may not agree, maybe it doesn't exist at all...


One thing for sure. I will share any bit of information that get in my hands regarding the scanners with other owners here in the forum whether you like it or not.

Knock yourself out. I'm not trying to silence anyone. By your own admission you've taken on this project because you couldn't get the information out of Aztek. So, buyer beware...

I'm going there in a couple of weeks. I could probably ask them a question or two, and get an answer, if someone wants to PM me off line.

Lenny

[onnect17]

And you still wonder why nobody took advantage of the Thanksgiving offer. Perhaps they read.
Please do not forget the Holy Kami at the entrance.

[sanking]

Hey Sandy, I have a DPL 7.8 license for the 7500. I do not mind you trying it. Then you can decide if it's what you want.

Just borrow, OK? :-)

Hi Armando,

You are very kind to offer use of your DPL for the 7500. However, I am going to pass on the opportunity, primarily because of the current pricing by Aztek of DPL, combined with the cost (and hassle for me) of setting up a non-MAC operating system work station.

All considered I believe it will be better for me to continue with Silverfast and MAC OS 10.4 and concentrate on some of the machine enhancements (bearings, LEDs, replacement of PMT, etc.) you have already suggested.

Best,

Sandy