Woot! I just found N2 Burst development tanks and bought them!

[Tin Can]

Sorry! I am stoked! I found the elusive nitrogen burst development tanks and they are in the mail!

They look like Calumet, by Leedal, made by http://www.rosyproducts.com/intro.htm

Now a tank, regulator, some hose and...

Question

Is N2 absolutely necessary for B&W film or is regular clean compressed air OK?

I already have a oil less compressor under my main sink...


Here they are in the 1977 Calumet catalog.

133088133089

[Jac@stafford.net]

I'm happy for you, Randy. I had the opportunity to buy a complete set-up but passed because I knew I would not process enough film to justify its maintenance.

Regarding N vs air - N because as you know it will not react with the chemistry and air will accelerate oxidation.
.

[Tin Can]

I'm happy for you, Randy. I had the opportunity to buy a complete set-up but passed because I knew I would not process enough film to justify its maintenance.

Regarding N vs air - N because as you know it will not react with the chemistry and air will accelerate oxidation.
.

We always called our nitrogen tanks at work, we had dozens of large 2500 psi tanks, N2, but I guess I want N as in pure N?

However if I am using one shot developer in these 1 gallon tanks, oxidation is not an issue?

How about N burst with fixer vs 'air'?

[Tin Can]

https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101130165819AA6z913

N2 is it.

[appletree]

Yeah N2 is Nitrogen. Two atoms for a molecule.
Interesting though. Nitrogen is inert and I guess as someone mentioned does not influence oxidation.

[Jim Noel]

Yes, Nitrogen only.
When I first started at the college we had a system available to the students. We filled the tanks with D-23 at the beginning of each semester and kept a supply of D-25 available as replenisher along with a chart to insure adequate replenishment. It worked beautifully. The added advantage for me was the ability to take the used D-23 home at the end of each semester. I used it when total development was necessary to get the contrast of negatives made on very cloudy days up to my needs. It is the only way to get adequate contrast in a negative of the dunes in Death Valley made on a typically heavily overcast day in January. 8 hours in the silver rich developer produced stunning negatives due to the replating phenomenon.

[Jac@stafford.net]

https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101130165819AA6z913

N2 is it.

N is a lonely atom. And monogamous.
.

[prendt]

Sorry! I am stoked! I found the elusive nitrogen burst development tanks and they are in the mail!

They look like Calumet, by Leedal, made by http://www.rosyproducts.com/intro.htm

Now a tank, regulator, some hose and...

Question

Is N2 absolutely necessary for B&W film or is regular clean compressed air OK?



Were it not necessary why would anyone even bother to use it with nitrogen??? Just curious.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Yes, Nitrogen only.
When I first started at the college we had a system available to the students. We filled the tanks with D-23 at the beginning of each semester and kept a supply of D-25 available as replenisher along with a chart to insure adequate replenishment. It worked beautifully. The added advantage for me was the ability to take the used D-23 home at the end of each semester. I used it when total development was necessary to get the contrast of negatives made on very cloudy days up to my needs. It is the only way to get adequate contrast in a negative of the dunes in Death Valley made on a typically heavily overcast day in January. 8 hours in the silver rich developer produced stunning negatives due to the replating phenomenon.

Very interesting. I have never used replenishment. I will look into the technique and 'replating' phenomenon, and if I cannot find enough information, I'll be back with questions. (Research firs, ask questions later :))

[Tin Can]

Were it not necessary why would anyone even bother to use it with nitrogen??? Just curious.

I am only going on my Internet research. It is my understanding, that consistent and even agitation was the primary goal and effect of N2 Burst. Compressed air may be fine for one shot developer, stop, fix and wash as all the liquids are temporary.

However color chemistry is used over and over and compressed air will oxidize and degrade them quickly. Thus N2 has been the standard for photo labs and many other labs I have worked, which were not photo related.

Jim Noel adds below, his school's tanks and chemistry lasted a semester and of course oxidation would be a problem in that situation, so he used N2. Thanks for that input, Jim.

I plan to set my process up with compressed air FIRST to test all other parameters, THEN buy an N2 tank and use it. I need timers, solenoids, fittings, valves, hose. All simple for me as I used to build custom lab setups every day for decades, however none of it was photo related, but we used the same gear.

I have one 8x10 tank with a DIY N2 setup. that until now, I have used as a wash tank by flowing water through the lines to wash from below. Works great like that. Any of the tanks I just bought would also do that.

I see one astute reader here found the last 2 tanks and bought 1. Which leaves one more...

I don't plan on doing color, but who knows, sometimes I change my mind! :)

My local color lab, has shut down and claims they will reopen but when? It's been a year.

Update! They are open for C41. Great news! http://www.cswfilmsystems.com/

[gleaf]

You can air anything but the developer, N2 makes up about 80% of normal air. Oxidizing the Developer is early death of capacity.
Clean oil free air.. not inexpensive to have it once you add the additional system.
N2 (oil free) isn't that expensive.

[Jac@stafford.net]

It is my understanding, that consistent and even agitation was the primary goal and effect of N2 Burst.

And it obviated air bubbles on the film.


I need timers, solenoids, fittings, valves, hose.

Which prompts me to ask what you actually got.

[Tin Can]

And it obviated air bubbles on the film.



Which prompts me to ask what you actually got.

Wait and I will show when I get it. I got tanks, not a complete system.

[Tin Can]

Finding old threads with info.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?9366-Nitrogen-Burst-Developing

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?10191-nitrogen-burst-development-tank-(building-your-own)

New N2 Burst systems.

http://www.tedpella.com/photo_html/photo5.htm

http://www.calstainless.com/emprocessors.shtml

The College method and rule book, very impressive!

http://metz.rose2.brandeis.edu/emdoc/books/workstudystudents-handbook/book.html

The movie with live N2 bursting happening . Very exciting...Not! But it does show all kinds of good detail.

https://youtu.be/XQy0xQoULro

[Tin Can]

This is a good post from Lynn Jones.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?25807-Nitrogen-Burst-Agitation&p=831325&viewfull=1#post831325

[Tin Can]

Also finally read the subscriber section of View Camera Magazine, good info there on N2 Burst.

Today I got another piece of the system, a Kodak Gaseous Burst Timer Model 90B, gifted by a generous member here!

Thank you!

I am collecting bits, got surgical black latex USA tubing yesterday.

Ordered some 12 volt solenoids tonight and a mess of nylon fittings, all off eBay, all new USA made, and very affordable.

A tank and regulator will be next. Seems the DIY Beer Brewing industry is a good source for the regulator, manifolds, valves. Perhaps offshore. I'l inspect closely as 2300 PSI N2 is nothing to fool with, hose whip can be very exciting. A broken spud would be bad news even with the bottle tied down. I have seen the actual industrial safety movies.

[Peter De Smidt]

That's going to be quite the system! I look forward to seeing it.

[jbrianfoto]

I've been running N2 burst in my home lab for about 3 years. My Burst interval timer is turned on and off by the relay in my Gra-Lab timer. So I jsut set it for my desired process time, which in turn activates the interval timer (which regulates the length of burst and the interval between bursts). Besides the two timers all that remains is the N2 tank and a good gas regulator valve. The tank you need to purchase - when you go to get it filled they will just exchange it with a full one (I have two always full at home).

I am looking for a second 8X10 3.5 gallon tank that I can fill with fixer. My interval timer actually has two outputs, one for gas, the other for air. You can use air for fixer.

Big benefit of N2 burst, rock solid development for sheet film. No streaks or otherwise uneven sky tones. Once you dial in your times, the agitation is 100% repeatable and consistent. Once you try Gas - you'll never go back !

[Tin Can]

Sounds great.

Here is Kodak Pub 57 which explains all necessary parameters of Gas Burst.

http://kjnadvor.home.comcast.net/~kjnadvor/apug/Kodak_E-57.pdf

[Tin Can]

I got my Velleman 555 timer (http://www.amazon.com/Velleman-MK111-Interval-Timer/dp/B004NVVYXE/ref=pd_sim_328_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=02Q9CV6HWMEZ04JHX767), made in EU and Solenoid. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/121146805630?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)

Works real well and quickly adjusted to Kodak specs. Cycled it for hours, in 10 minute powered up times. No observable variation.

I see Kodak highly suggests 'humidified N2' using a large filter housing with filter filled with water and a secondary empty filter to catch water drops before reaching the distribution plenum.

Easy enough, but I wonder if really necessary in hobby usage. They speak of orifice clogs from developer crystallization. I will add mine on the low pressure side.

I will do one setup that way. I'm making each 'timer/solenoid' set modular, in case I want to make multiples for color or any other plan.

Did you see this on eBay? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-TIME-O-LITE-GAS-BURST-TIMER-DARK-ROOM-TIMER-FOR-NITROUS-GAS-/400906465804?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d57e3320c) I have had a lot of trouble with Time-O-Lites and don't trust them.

So it goes.

[Peter De Smidt]

Good stuff!

[Jac@stafford.net]

So Randy, are you going to take in massive development business now?
.

[Tin Can]

No.

I am only a hobbyist.

I may expand on N2 Burst as I move along, meaning bigger tanks.

But first I get this going, little by little.

[Michael Cienfuegos]

No.

I am only a hobbyist.

I may expand on N2 Burst as I move along, meaning bigger tanks.

But first I get this going, little by little.

If you keep finding treasures like this you are going to need a bigger house. :eek:


m

[Michael Kadillak]

Please take into consideration that N2 is heavier than air and must be safely vented out of your darkroom to prevent it from building up from the floor and creating an oxygen deprived condition that is dangerous and could kill you. We must be cognizant of the proper utilization of all tools including this one. Please Be Safe!

[Tin Can]

Please take into consideration that N2 is heavier than air and must be safely vented out of your darkroom to prevent it from building up from the floor and creating an oxygen deprived condition that is dangerous and could kill you. We must be cognizant of the proper utilization of all tools including this one. Please Be Safe!

I have been using high volume, high pressure N2 in enclosed laboratory areas for decades. I know what I am doing. I know tank safety, fittings required, chain down procedures. I understand, design and utilize exchange air rates. These flow rates will be low volume, low pressure and extremely safe.

Thanks for your concern.

[Michael Kadillak]

I have been using high volume, high pressure N2 in enclosed laboratory areas for decades. I know what I am doing. I know tank safety, fittings required, chain down procedures. I understand, design and utilize exchange air rates. These flow rates will be low volume, low pressure and extremely safe.

Thanks for your concern.

Yes Randy you have tremendous experience but this was not directed at you. I added these comments for the large format venue in general and any future queries on this subject. If this reminder contributes to even one photographer to remind themselves to be safe with this process it is well worth the effort.

[Tin Can]

Yes Randy you have tremendous experience but this was not directed at you. I added these comments for the large format venue in general and any future queries on this subject. If this reminder contributes to even one photographer to remind themselves to be safe with this process it is well worth the effort.

Yes, Michael your advice is wise. I have no plans to tell people how to exactly do this. I will show my progress and general direction.

Today I got my timing components and solenoids, they use low power 12 VDC, I will be testing the entire system with compressed air from a pancake air compressor at 10 PSI. I will not even buy a N2 cylinder until I get this working well with one shot developer. If I like my results with one shot, I may stop there as I think we only need N2 when we want to prevent oxidation of developers we reuse and refresh over time.

Here is what I made and tested tonight. I will not supply source and part #'s, but it's all online and cheap. Actually the timers seldom have instructions, but they cost $5 delivered.

First is adjustable total run time set for 600 seconds, the second timer gives the solenoid a 1 second signal every 10 seconds. Then the whole thing turns off after XX minutes and remembers the settings. 2 switches, one is power and the second switch starts the system.

It will soon all be in a grounded NEMA box connected to a GFCI Breaker box. Safety is paramount.

And to repeat, N2 may be unnecessary. Kodak discusses this.

Anybody attempting this needs to start by reading and understanding all literature extant, the best primary source is Kodak Pub. 57 http://kjnadvor.home.comcast.net/~kjnadvor/apug/Kodak_E-57.pdf

10 PSI is the working pressure for a "GAS" burst system, N2 or AIR.

Please no PM's on this topic, we discuss it right here.

134346

[Peter De Smidt]

How big are the holes in the plenums? Is this something that could be fabricated by drilling a bunch of small holes in pvc? Another potential option would be an aquarium air pump with a bubble bar.

[Michael Kadillak]

Yes, Michael your advice is wise. I have no plans to tell people how to exactly do this. I will show my progress and general direction.

Today I got my timing components and solenoids, they use low power 12 VDC, I will be testing the entire system with compressed air from a pancake air compressor at 10 PSI. I will not even buy a N2 cylinder until I get this working well with one shot developer. If I like my results with one shot, I may stop there as I think we only need N2 when we want to prevent oxidation of developers we reuse and refresh over time.

Here is what I made and tested tonight. I will not supply source and part #'s, but it's all online and cheap. Actually the timers seldom have instructions, but they cost $5 delivered.

First is adjustable total run time set for 600 seconds, the second timer gives the solenoid a 1 second signal every 10 seconds. Then the whole thing turns off after XX minutes and remembers the settings. 2 switches, one is power and the second switch starts the system.

It will soon all be in a grounded NEMA box connected to a GFCI Breaker box. Safety is paramount.

And to repeat, N2 may be unnecessary. Kodak discusses this.

Anybody attempting this needs to start by reading and understanding all literature extant, the best primary source is Kodak Pub. 57 http://kjnadvor.home.comcast.net/~kjnadvor/apug/Kodak_E-57.pdf

10 PSI is the working pressure for a "GAS" burst system, N2 or AIR.

Please no PM's on this topic, we discuss it right here.

134346

I continue to set my plenum pressure at 15# consistent with the results of the article on this subject I wrote for View Camera a while back. That is what I read in the article I got from Kodak and it continues to work perfectly. Given the reasonable price of N2 once you have a tank it is not worth the risk of trying to save a few bucks with air. Film continues to go up in cost and results drive the bus for me.

[Tin Can]

How big are the holes in the plenums? Is this something that could be fabricated by drilling a bunch of small holes in pvc? Another potential option would be an aquarium air pump with a bubble bar.

Peter, is that a trick question?

Read page six in the link, it tells all.

[Peter De Smidt]

No, sorry. Too much Photoshop today. Off to do a little reading..... Ok. Got it. :)

[Tin Can]

I continue to set my plenum pressure at 15# consistent with the results of the article on this subject I wrote for View Camera a while back. That is what I read in the article I got from Kodak and it continues to work perfectly. Given the reasonable price of N2 once you have a tank it is not worth the risk of trying to save a few bucks with air. Film continues to go up in cost and results drive the bus for me.

The new (bargain!) Parker regulators I found online, are adjustable from 0 to 30 psi. Delivery Friday. I imagine plenum hole size, total hole area, system elasticity, from tubing and fluid depth, and best fluid rise need to be adjusted by pressure for each system, especially since mine is ad hoc.

We might add, your article is readable only by View Camera Magazine subscribers, which I have no problem with. I have been respecting copyright and IP of both you and View Camera Magazine. I do subscribe to the fine magazine.

As for film cost, yes it is expensive yet available. I will be testing all parameters. That will consume film, I'll do my best to not waste it.

The whole point of Gas Burst experimentation and implementation is better results, just as it was when invented.

I don't often jump over to APUG, despite paying the tariff there, but I like PE's take on it a couple years ago.

http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1375256

[Tin Can]

Looking at commercial scientific N2 Burst gear, I noticed this company sells a very handy Lucite basket that can hold 3 sizes of film and glass plate.

Get this up to 25- 4x5 films!

This is pretty neat.

I am not affiliated with this company and have not used any of it.

https://www.tedpella.com/photo_html/photo6.htm

[Jac@stafford.net]

Looking at commercial scientific N2 Burst gear, I noticed this company sells a very handy Lucite basket that can hold 3 sizes of film and glass plate. Get this up to 25- 4x5 films!

I am not affiliated with this company and have not used any of it.

https://www.tedpella.com/photo_html/photo6.htm

Great find, Randy. Thanks. They have specialized, precision expertise. The unit seems to be particularly efficient, and of a scale that would work for the rest of us. Did you check out their anti-static devices?

[Tin Can]

Great find, Randy. Thanks. They have specialized, precision expertise. The unit seems to be particularly efficient, and of a scale that would work for the rest of us. Did you check out their anti-static devices?

Yes, I read the whole site. Their vacuum film storage methods, recommended RH and temps, film handling, static control and processing methods are very informative.

Did you notice the extreme fixing time, the implied, but I am sure implemented vacuum imaging stage?

I'm going to look for image samples in appropriate literature.