Deep focus

[Draganski]

Hello
I have just made my first large format (4x5) exposure with my Chamonix 045-N1, and i am quite happy with it. I really like the film tonality and the whole process. I already scouted the location before and knew what composition i wanted to achieve.

I was not able to achieve sufficient focus on the foreground and background and wanted to ask if this is possible at all, since the foreground is relatively close

Here is an example:
128435

I think it might help if i could raise the camera more and tilt the camera axis more downwards? my tripod extends to chest height maximum, that was the limiting factor when i made the shot.

here is a comparison shot i made with my iphone (Hipstamatic app, very contrasty):
128436

thank you for your help
dragan

[MDR]

There are several possibilities to achieve the effect you want. Really closing down the lens way past the optimum f-stop, using an ultra lf lens and cropping in post/printing stage and another one that might work is a split diopter. And again another one is to take a few steps back and crop in the darkroom or lightroom cropping is not an exotic disease but a very useful tool.

viel Glück

[Ken Lee]

The longer the lens, the harder it is to get adequate depth of field. People who shoot large format cameras often have to use f/64 or even f/128 to get it because they often shoot with very long lenses.

The wide-angle lens in your cell phone is probably around 5 mm, so it can give enormous depth of field at fairly wide apertures. A 5mm lens at f/2.8 has the same depth of field as a 10mm lens at f/5.6, a 20mm lens at f/11, a 40mm lens at f/22, an 80mm lens at f/45 and a 160mm lens at f/90 !

Therefore, use a small aperture and a small lens.

[Draganski]

thanks for your replies. I used a 150mm/5.6 Fujinon NW lens on my Chamonix, Aperture 22, 1/4 Second exposure time. There was not much light on that very overcast day for using a smaller aperture and keeping shutter speed fast enough for the trains. I will definitely reshoot in better light, after a rain would be perfect.

I also have a Rodenstock 75mm Grandagon and will give it a try soon.

[Peter Lewin]

Isn't this particular example a case where a little tilt on the front or rear standard will bring the foreground rail into focus?

[Draganski]

Isn't this particular example a case where a little tilt on the front or rear standard will bring the foreground rail into focus?

i already tilted forward a bit.
if i use f64, is it better to focus on the foreground or a bit further towards the rails?

[Jim Jones]

A split diopter filter works in some photos, but would give distracting out-of-focus areas here. While the Grandagon will have more Depth-of-Field, it will also include more of the rail, increasing the need for greater DoF. I can't tell if using it would include distracting elements near the edge of the photo. Using it and cropping to get the same composition will provide no gain over using the Symmar. On a subject like this where precise perspective isn't important, either front or back tilt can be used. A little swing might also help. Getting all of the rail in focus with this composition appears impossible. If there is a time of day when the rail is in a shadow, it might not be so distracting. Consider planting only two of the tripod legs on the ground and leaning them against the rail so you can perhaps eliminate most of the rail from the picture.

[Peter Lewin]

Since you have a zone of focus which extends both in front of, and behind, the actual plane of focus, the idea is to focus so that the foreground and background are sort of equally out of focus before you shut down your aperture to f32 or 64 (I rarely shut down beyond f32 on my 4x5, once in a while to f45). Mechanically, I put my thumb at "12 o clock" on the focus knob, focus on the near, then see where my thumb ends up (keeping it in place on the knob) when I focus on the far, and split the difference for the actual focus (I hope that makes sense, easier to do than describe). In your sample picture, my guess is that you would actually end up focusing on the brick wall to the right of the image, which is part way between the very near part of the rail, and your far-away buildings.

One other thought: in your image (which I like due to the variety of lines, it's slightly off-kilter geometry) that railing angles off to the viewer's right. Perhaps a slight bit of swing would have kept everything in focus at the aperture you used. But playing simultaneously with tilt and swing is something you have to try while watching the ground glass, I normally try to keep things simple and use only one of those movements at a time.

[Draganski]

Consider planting only two of the tripod legs on the ground and leaning them against the rail so you can perhaps eliminate most of the rail from the picture.

Yes, that is the perspective i used with the phone camera. I didn't want to risk everything for my first large format shot ever :) , but i will work on that.

[ic-racer]

The focal point and aperture selection were not suitable for what you were trying to achieve. Read this and consider other books or articles on how to use a view camera. You might want to consider a view camera workshop.http://www.largeformatphotography.info/fstop.html

[Draganski]

Mechanically, I put my thumb at "12 o clock" on the focus knob, focus on the near, then see where my thumb ends up (keeping it in place on the knob) when I focus on the far, and split the difference for the actual focus (I hope that makes sense, easier to do than describe).

One other thought: in your image (which I like due to the variety of lines, it's slightly off-kilter geometry) that railing angles off to the viewer's right. Perhaps a slight bit of swing would have kept everything in focus at the aperture you used. But playing simultaneously with tilt and swing is something you have to try while watching the ground glass, I normally try to keep things simple and use only one of those movements at a time.

Thank you for the explanation of the technique with the focus knob. This composition required a lot of knob turns to focus from front to back.

i will try a different composition, with the railins entering the frame at a greater distance.

thank you all for your answers

[Draganski]

The longer the lens, the harder it is to get adequate depth of field. People who shoot large format cameras often have to use f/64 or even f/128 to get it because they often shoot with very long lenses.

The wide-angle lens in your cell phone is probably around 5 mm, so it can give enormous depth of field at fairly wide apertures. A 5mm lens at f/2.8 has the same depth of field as a 10mm lens at f/5.6, a 20mm lens at f/11, a 40mm lens at f/22, an 80mm lens at f/45 and a 160mm lens at f/90 !

Therefore, use a small aperture and a small lens.

Thanks for the precise explanation. I have been on your web site quite often, it is one of the things that sparked my interest in large format.

[Ken Lee]

Thanks for the precise explanation. I have been on your web site quite often, it is one of the things that sparked my interest in large format.

:)

[Peter De Smidt]

As Peter says, a bit of swing would've helped, as would stopping down. If you need a faster shutter speed, then use faster film.

If you're scanning, then you could also take two frames, one for the railing, and one for the background, and then combine them with software.

Using a wider lens will change how big the background is relative to the rail.

[C. D. Keth]

The trick to remember is that most of the time, we're not really dealing with that deep of a volume of focus. We're creating the illusion of deep focus. We're placing the focus along surfaces where it counts. Unfortunately, since you're shooting through things and have pretty extreme near and far, those tricks don't really work.

[David_Senesac]

There is only so much that is possible as one compromises between stopping down a lens aperture for increased DOF versus diffraction limits versus how much tilt/swing/shift is possible given subject geometry versus setting a lens focus point.

So one of the most important elements to learn using large format is where to make compromises. Sometimes because of the geometry of subjects, lens movements are not much an option so instead one must rely on lens aperture DOF. For example photographing below the canopy of an oak tree up into branches that are at all manner of sections of a frame.

A person with a 4x5 expecting to make a small say 8x10 print can get away with much less DOF and still have a sharp result versus someone expecting to make a 24x30 print. Accordingly as with your subject of that near railing, as your intent for print size becomes larger, the more DOF to bring that into focus for reasonable detail also increases. The experienced photographer quickly considers what is ballpark possible to bring frame elements into focus although sometimes when marginal one has to just take a shot and view the results to really know.

A key reason these days I am increasingly using my 4x5 film camera less and my mirrorless 25mp digital camera more is because of far more DOF possible when post process focus stacking which blends together multiple frames of a same subject each taken with different focus points. That opens up possible subjects which were impossible with any cameras in the past. Combined with image stitching multiple frames to create larger images, it is a paradigm shift few photographers have yet grasped the impact of.

[Draganski]

I just wanted to say a big thank you to everyone on the forum. I have made another attempt and it was much better this time. i used my 75mm Rodenstock @f45 and used the focusing techniques from the forum. i also read a lot about depth of field on a large format camera. bottom line - only the short focal length and at least f45 give acceptable sharpness in the foreground and background.
i have editted the image in lightroom. i could only shoot in harsh daylight, so i added a vignette for more impact. hope you like it. thank you, dragan

130201

[mdarnton]

That's MUCH better, in every respect, not just focus.

[Jim Cole]

That's MUCH better, in every respect, not just focus.

Yep!

[Peter De Smidt]

Nice job!