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thejester83
19-Jan-2015, 19:36
I am sorry, asking what something is worth is not the same as posting it for sale!!!!! Just because other people turned it in to a D!ck swinging contest is not my fault!
and saying "asking about value is chumming for sharks" is like saying a hot girl that goes to a bar all dressed up is asking to get raped! Keep it in your pants people! I was trying to find out info on my lenses I have had them for a long time and have had a very hard time getting info on them and thought this would be good place to get info. At this point I should just smash them with a sledge and be done with it. I have lots of question. You all tell me to get them professionally cleaned and professionally appraised but no one tells me who does that! I have gone to antique camera shops and they don't want to touch them. I have gone to big antique shows to have them appraised and they think they are the coolest thing ever seen but cant tell me anything about them and they told me to look here. I already said if and when I go to sell them I will follow the rules. I am not at that point yet, I am still trying to get info on them. I may keep them and try my hand at large format (did I mention I am a professional photographer/videographer) but if this is the large format crowd then no thank you! I will add, that a small group of people have PM me and have given me some great info and I thank you for that (you know who you are). But being blamed by the Moderator for other people freaking out is bull!!!! Maybe the moderator needs to go after the people trying to buy them and not the guy looking for info:mad:

BrianShaw
19-Jan-2015, 19:54
Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately most "what is the value" questions tend to go to the left - on every forum I've ever been a part of.

Jac@stafford.net
19-Jan-2015, 19:56
With respect, I agree with thejester. I suspect that some good old-timers with some justified skepticism from experience jumped on a new poster. Can we start over?
.

koh303
19-Jan-2015, 20:02
Welcome to the LFPF! Don't be discouraged - try try again, and i am sure you will get the answers you are looking for this time around. Don't worry about the jokers who take themselves too seriously. Everyone had a chance to take a deep breath so your next try should be more useful:)

Good luck!

SMBooth
19-Jan-2015, 20:12
I remember the first time posting to a forum and writing ASA, instead of ISO. Boy did some people get all upset over that.

vinny
19-Jan-2015, 20:26
Watch out for the old and feeble guys. They're cranky at times.

Ari
19-Jan-2015, 20:42
Welcome! And leave your thin skin at the door.

Kirk Gittings
19-Jan-2015, 20:57
Whether it is you or the sharks leading the thread astray it needed to go away as it was violating the rules. As a former moderator I can say that more times than not a newby starting a thread like that appeared to be (less than subtly) trying to sidestep the 30 day rule. So yes moderators do get suspicious because it is a pretty common problem.

Nigel Smith
19-Jan-2015, 21:20
I remember the first time posting to a forum and writing ASA, instead of ISO. Boy did some people get all upset over that.

I still do that :)

Adamphotoman
19-Jan-2015, 22:07
The opposite can happen. Folks can try to take advantage of a newbie, and offer less than affair price.

We need to be candid on what a sample is worth. At least a low to high value.

brandon13
20-Jan-2015, 00:57
Sorry that it was a bad experience. 8x10 user has a Bausch and Lomb 3a copy for sale for $2800.00 in for sale and wanted. Its a ridiculous price. I own a Dallmeyer 3a and I paid $1200 2 years ago. I also paid $500 for the same B and L 3 years ago. Dallmeyers trump B and L's They are fantastic lenses. I shoot Dallmeyers constantly. One 3a sold for $1400 the other day. a reasonable or good price. In other words A dallmeyer is worth much more than a B and L. someone selling a B and L for $2800.00 which is ridiculously overpriced should not be offering you 1500 for a much more valuable 3a that and a possibly another lens that could be worth maybe a a considerable amount of money.

brandon13
20-Jan-2015, 02:32
Sorry I deleted my post because I somehow made the exact same post. Here's Dan's list of recent soft focus sales. hope this helps.
http://www.antiquecameras.net/softfocuslenssales.html

goamules
20-Jan-2015, 06:29
Most of us also remember cases of fraud on this board, brought on by a new member "asking questions" about desirable, expensive lenses.

One in particular was a Cooke Semi-achromat, which the newbie posted in a very similar manner: "I found this lens in my grandma's attic, and know nothing about it." These are strange statements, full of warning flags. The seller says he knows nothing about a rare lens, but has access to the internet, and access to eBay, where All Dreams of Riches Come From? The seller cannot use those easy resources, but searches for an esoteric Large Format forum (somehow knowing that's the purpose of the lenses) to join? Cannot read the boldly engraved writing on the lenses, and google that exact text string? Etc. In this case, buyers contacted the person with the Cooke query right away privately. Several people had competing PM bids, while the open thread lingered with people guessing prices. Finally someone made a deal, $2,000 I believe, and sent a check to the new member. All by PM, under the forum table. The money was never seen again. The lens never appeared, and the "seller" disappeared, never heard from again. The address was an empty house.

So yes, this forum is cautious with new members asking about rare lenses. The OP's angry response is unusual, I'm not sure if it gives me a more secure feeling - or less.

mdarnton
20-Jan-2015, 06:30
Information inequality is what keeps the profit machine running. I haven't looked at the thread in question, but I'll bet that those who screamed the loudest are ones who are in the business here of buying and selling. Price exposure is bad for their business.

You may want to look into the ignore button. It allows you to avoid the posts of people who are habitually tiresome or angry. In spite of this being one of the friendliest forums I have participated in, I also have the highest number of people here on "ignore" compared with any other forum.

TXFZ1
20-Jan-2015, 06:34
I am respectfully calling BS. I find it very hard to believe that you did not find the info in the two threads. Knowing the bbs, there were three pages of opinions but also links to allow you to do your research. I side with the moderators as they have limited time to attend to the forum.

David

cowanw
20-Jan-2015, 08:09
I am glad you posted again. I felt sorry for you. You fell into some issues that simmer away and occasionally bubble over in this forum. We would like to believe that people who post here have an interest in Large Format Photography and get aggravated by people who may just want to use the expertise of others to make a buck.

I suggest you post these one at a time and ask some Questions about what is it, learn about the types of lenses, f stops, focal length and over time read and google about them. Then you will get a sense of value and go from there. Infirmed and educated, you will feel much better about what you do with them.

jnanian
20-Jan-2015, 08:21
I am glad you posted again. I felt sorry for you. You fell into some issues that simmer away and occasionally bubble over in this forum. We would like to believe that people who post here have an interest in Large Format Photography and get aggravated by people who may just want to use the expertise of others to make a buck.

I suggest you post these one at a time and ask some Questions about what is it, learn about the types of lenses, f stops, focal length and over time read and google about them. Then you will get a sense of value and go from there. Infirmed and educated, you will feel much better about what you do with them.

+1

as others have suggested,
don't get frustrated because of a
strange snowball fight ...

good luck finding out about you lens/es !

john

thejester83
20-Jan-2015, 08:58
Most of us also remember cases of fraud on this board, brought on by a new member "asking questions" about desirable, expensive lenses.

One in particular was a Cooke Semi-achromat, which the newbie posted in a very similar manner: "I found this lens in my grandma's attic, and know nothing about it." These are strange statements, full of warning flags. The seller says he knows nothing about a rare lens, but has access to the internet, and access to eBay, where All Dreams of Riches Come From? The seller cannot use those easy resources, but searches for an esoteric Large Format forum (somehow knowing that's the purpose of the lenses) to join? Cannot read the boldly engraved writing on the lenses, and google that exact text string? Etc. In this case, buyers contacted the person with the Cooke query right away privately. Several people had competing PM bids, while the open thread lingered with people guessing prices. Finally someone made a deal, $2,000 I believe, and sent a check to the new member. All by PM, under the forum table. The money was never seen again. The lens never appeared, and the "seller" disappeared, never heard from again. The address was an empty house.

So yes, this forum is cautious with new members asking about rare lenses. The OP's angry response is unusual, I'm not sure if it gives me a more secure feeling - or less.

So what you are saying is that you or others tried to side step the rules (rules that are put there to protect you from scammers) and buy from a new poster under the table and not wait the 30 days and you got screwed. So now you are going to treat any new member who post nice lenses like a scammer?

thejester83
20-Jan-2015, 09:05
Thank you for the help and the links to some great info:) I am going to start a new thread to ask some specific questions about specific lenses.

goamules
20-Jan-2015, 09:10
So what you are saying is that you or others tried to side step the rules (rules that are put there to protect you from scammers) and buy from a new poster under the table and not wait the 30 days and you got screwed. So now you are going to treat any new member who post nice lenses like a scammer?

The 30 day rule doesn't protect anyone. A buyers careful research of the seller , and vetting him does.

Greed and haste cause people problems, I don't try to buy during obvious mass conflagrations. But I do warn members of the potential of getting defrauded, because our good, longterm members have been burned before. If you are an honest, calm person you'll find a lot of helpful people here. If you barge in, then start cursing and criticizing everyone, well, you'll reap what you sow. Your option.

fishbulb
20-Jan-2015, 09:25
No, I'm not saying that I was going to buy anything from you. I'm not interested in them. The 30 day rule doesn't protect anyone. A buyers research of the seller does.

Indeed. When I posted about a recommendation for a field camera, I got half a dozen PM's from people trying to sell me one, despite the 30 day rule.

My two cents:

To me, the 30-day rule for BUYERS should be repealed. It should be kept for SELLERS.

I could have bought a bunch of my stuff on this forum. But I didn't - I got it all on eBay because I couldn't buy anything here. Most people getting into large format will spend a large amount of the money up front (first camera and lens, plus film holders, etc.), and then slowly add to their kit over time. This forum is doing their sellers a huge disservice by blocking new members from purchasing.

BrianShaw
20-Jan-2015, 09:28
... If you are an honest, calm person you'll find a lot of helpful people here. If you barge in, then start cursing and criticizing everyone, well, you'll reap what you sow. Your option.

Reviewing the history, Garrett... the poor guy/gal was sideswiped by two of the forums anomalies: Batman and the Shark. I don't blame him/her for being dazed. And no matter how much one might understand the mods just decisions... if one just got sideswiped like he/she did it appears that those actions were aimed at him/her. :)

I'm willing to give a benefit of the doubt in this case but that's just me and nobody really cares what I do or say, so...

Jody_S
20-Jan-2015, 09:33
Indeed. When I posted about a recommendation for a field camera, I got half a dozen PM's from people trying to sell me one, despite the 30 day rule.

My two cents:

To me, the 30-day rule for BUYERS should be repealed. It should be kept for SELLERS.

I could have bought a bunch of my stuff on this forum. But I didn't - I got it all on eBay because I couldn't buy anything here. Most people getting into large format will spend a large amount of the money up front (first camera and lens, plus film holders, etc.), and then slowly add to their kit over time. This forum is doing their sellers a huge disservice by blocking new members from purchasing.

I agree.

Jim Galli
20-Jan-2015, 10:23
Late to the party as usual. Missed out on all the fun.

Prices on these lenses, you have a couple that are desirable, obviously, fluctuate like the stock market. They're all over the place.

You'll find similar lenses with absurd "asking" prices. The best help we have is the thread and websites that track sales of Soft Focus lenses to try to keep a meter of some sort on the 'pulse'.

But yours aren't 'soft focus' so no one's tracking them the same way.

No one can just throw out a dollar figure. What's the price of a barrel of crude this week? What will it be in 6 months? What was it a year ago? Things of value go up and go down.

Actually you'd have done much better 18 months ago. Prices have come down, it seems to me.

If you're going to sell them, you'll end up doing the same thing most folks do. Try to get a feel from similar things that have sold, overprice yours, wait, wait some more, realize you reached too high, eventually come to terms with some honest person that actually wants it and is willing to pay a fair price, and get together.

But asking people to put a price on them isn't fair to anybody. It's an impossible request on a whole bunch of levels.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with capitalism. If someone buys the 'lot' warts and all and then does professional level cleaning and problem solving and sells them one at a time for a 40% profit, that is just capitalism at work. It's a good system and people who pay for their hobby by doing that on the side are not "evil".

You can wade through my web pages if you want to see real pictures made with similar things. What you ought to do is get a big old wooden studio camera and enjoy your windfall. They can make images that the digi world can't touch.

Old-N-Feeble
20-Jan-2015, 10:29
Watch out for the old and feeble guys. They're cranky at times.

FWIW, my heart was in the write place. I shouldn't have posted openly. I'm sorry for that.:( Too, I didn't recognize when to shut up. I'm shutting up after this post.

I think this is a workable solution: If I was going to ask for information about an item I would start by writing, "This lens is not for sale so please don't ask.:)" (don't forget the smiley face). Then I would proceed with my questions. That should prevent any problems. If I decide to sell later when all forum criteria are met then I could just change my mind.

Corran
20-Jan-2015, 11:05
To me, the 30-day rule for BUYERS should be repealed. It should be kept for SELLERS.

I could have bought a bunch of my stuff on this forum. But I didn't - I got it all on eBay because I couldn't buy anything here. Most people getting into large format will spend a large amount of the money up front (first camera and lens, plus film holders, etc.), and then slowly add to their kit over time. This forum is doing their sellers a huge disservice by blocking new members from purchasing.

Yes please!!
It's rare to sell anything on this forum nowadays because everyone already has their 90mm lens, or 210mm lens, etc. The new kids on the block with no gear get locked out (usually they don't even realize there's a buy/sell subforum) and get their starter kit on eBay for 30% more than we could sell it here.

In reality the B/S forum should just be a public forum that anyone can browse, and then email the seller. If the seller doesn't want to sell to a non-forum member or someone with no history, fine, put it in the fine print. No one forces them to sell. More market = better for everyone.

Pete Watkins
20-Jan-2015, 11:25
Yeah, I agree with fishbulb as well. It's been a great thread and I think that a lot of people have gained information from it. Jim really explained the situation to perfection. The advice has been good!
Pete.

Ken Lee
20-Jan-2015, 11:32
Dunno if that's configurable. It would be one thing if this were an eCommerce site where we could detect the buyer and seller and distinguish between the two - but this isn't.

fishbulb
20-Jan-2015, 11:57
Dunno if that's configurable. It would be one thing if this were an eCommerce site where we could detect the buyer and seller and distinguish between the two - but this isn't.

It is easy to configure with Vbulletin (this forum's software). Assuming that the 30-day wait is done via a user group, and then after 30 days the user is auto promoted out of that group, you would just have to change the permissions on the "For Sale" forum from this:

Public, unregistered:
- Can view: no
- Can post: no
New member (less than 30 days):
- Can view: no
- Can post: no
Full member (autopromoted after 30 days):
- Can view: yes
- Can post: yes

To this:

Public, unregistered:
- Can view: no
- Can post: no
New member (less than 30 days):
- Can view: yes
- Can post: no
Full member (autopromoted after 30 days):
- Can view: yes
- Can post: yes

This is a little simplified; the permissions for Vbulletin actually offer a lot more granularity: https://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/vb2_manual_cp_usergroups

That way, if a new person finds something that they want for sale, they can just send the seller a PM, and the seller can decide if they want to sell to that person or not.

ghostcount
20-Jan-2015, 12:06
...the poor guy/gal was sideswiped by two of the forums anomalies: Batman and the Shark.

http://seveninchesofyourtime.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/shark-2.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dghbyBaQyI :cool:

Joe Smigiel
20-Jan-2015, 13:54
It has been recommended that the OP consult Dan's list of sales. I'll add that the list is out-of-date and may not reflect current demand and pricing (as Mr. Galli has also noted). FWIW, I sold a very nice example of a Dallmeyer 3A in the summer of 2013 for $2,500 net, more than any 3A example on that list. It was snatched up within hours and in retrospect, I could have probably realized $3,000 or more for it if I had played the overpricing game and waited to see the response. I believe I could net the same $2,500 or more for that particular example today, but I have other favorite lenses (I'm thinking of Veritos specifically) that I won't bother to sell based on the pricing drop these lenses have experienced in the past couple years.

Ebay sold listings probably represent a better guide than other resources that may be out-of-date.

8x10 user
20-Jan-2015, 14:00
To the op, I'm sorry your threads went sour. It wasn't your fault and noone is mad at you. I gave you a bunch of information on your lenses. Short of writing your descriptions, cleaning/inspecting your lenses, and retaking the photos there isn't much else that I could do.

To the mods, I appreciate what you do and I am very sorry for wasting your time.

To everyone else I dont see what the big deal is and I dont like being treated like a predator (shark). I offered a price for an item, it was an early offer and the op could say no or have countered. In this case he responded to the offer by asking for some time to take it to some people who have more information. I said that it sounds good and then advised him on how to safely pack the lenses for shipping and transportation.

Truth be told its not the dallmeyer that I really want (I'm looking for the next one in the catalog) and I but I would be interested in it "if the price was right". I believe later 3a's included a soft focus feature and had an aperture system, to me these are more desirable then an older one with waterhouse stops that I would need to convert from old US stops to our regular F stops. Also this lens has not inspected, there could have been unknown issues and my offer took that into consideration. What I offered him was IMO maybe %30-40 (depending on condition, still an unknown) less then a well listed example might go for (based on last sale, 1400). If he brought it to a professional to list they would take that much alone and of course ebay/paypal want there 15 %. I only paid $300 for my 6D. I offered him a much better price for a less desirable lens. Many feel that a low offer is better then no offers.

8x10 user
20-Jan-2015, 14:00
As for the batman. I really question what his deal was. I do not know much about him. He seemed to assume the worse. I'm not sure why he cared so much about the price negotiations of others. I know that he got into a disagreement with another member and has since declared that he will not buy and sell on the forum. He said in another forum that he thinks that trying to buy something for a good price a member of community is a sin and the he would tell someone they are selling an item to cheap before he would buy it. In the same thread he wrote something in another thread talking about how he buys and sells photo gear on ebay for profit (a later message pretty much accused me of taking advantage of another forum member; the op). It seems this isn't batmans first battle for gotham and under his previous screen name XXXX1234, I see blue strips from a dirty battle that resorted to name calling, but I really dont know what it was all about. Mike; I'm not your advisory or some villain you need to protect the forum from.


You provide your eBay ID and I'll provide mine.
I sent you my eBay id via PM, please step out of the shadows and respond with yours. I'm not going to make it public knowledge but I do not want to accidentally purchase from you. I feel after you called me out that I have this right. This has not been a fun experience for me.

Noone wants to be called names or known for making a lower offer on an item or getting into an argument. This batman called me out to reveal in public the private details of a price negotiation. For the sake of transparency and principle I did not run from this call and I shined a light into details that do not appear flattering. This was a mistake as noone should be singled out forced to reveal such details and then have to defend themselves against the public scrutiny by a small number of individuals. If realized this earlier then perhaps I would not have taken the bait and posted on that thread. This is why there are rules that say that negotiations should be done privately (one can post factual reports of buying or selling experiences that one has been a part of in the buyer seller advisory section). My mistake was not to make an offer that I felt was reasonable, it was to break the rules of the forum and to talk about it publicly. Now I'm here defending myself to everyone here instead of shooting pictures. I have other things to do. Can we give it a rest?


FWIW, my heart was in the write place. I shouldn't have posted openly. I'm sorry for that.:( Too, I didn't recognize when to shut up. I'm shutting up after this post.

You beat me to it... Batman wins

Jim Galli
20-Jan-2015, 14:06
Another tid bit. Dallmeyer 3A's as Joe notes were made in many configs over a long period. Similar to the Cooke Series II. The early ones with waterhouse stops just aren't worth as much as the late ones from the 1920's - 30's that have the aperture with lever and the "Turn For Soft Focus" collar feature, and the difference is rather like a Cooke Knuckler vss the same series II that doesn't have the knuckler thing that everybody thinks is cool. So there can be $1,000 - $1500 difference between Dallmeyer 3A lenses.

Oh, and 8X10 user, I've got a 4A I'd sell but you won't like the price. Been 7 or 8 years since I made an image with it.

8x10 user
20-Jan-2015, 14:10
How about we change the subject.... Does anyone like this picture that I took with my favorite dallmeyer?

128328

Taija71A
20-Jan-2015, 14:20
How about we change the subject.... Does anyone like this picture that I took with my favorite dallmeyer?

128328

Very Nice!

StoneNYC
20-Jan-2015, 14:22
I don't think the 30 day rule protects anyone, the only member I've ever been screwed over by is one of the buyers and sellers (despite the transaction being initiated on APUG the person is on this site too) who isn't an actual photographer and to my knowledge hasn't taken a real film or LF image in years despite pretending to be "preparing to take an image and seeking advice about which film or which camera" which is all a smokescreen to make it look like they are an actual user, but it's all a scam, and this person has been a member of both sites for years. Despite all that, I was a fool and listened to them because I thought they were respectable and honest having been around a while, and when I discovered the false truth about the item I bought from them, they refused to take it back. Yet they are still a member of this and the other forum, still buying and selling. I'm not saying all this to scare the OP or start trouble, I'm saying this because there's no guarantee's about anyone being honest, and short of physically showing up and forcing the person to return your money and take back your item if the information they give you it is indeed falsified, there's no way to protect yourself. This was my biggest error, if I had simply used paypal, instead of sending the person a check, I would have had someone to protect me, but this scammer wanted to avoid the IRS knowing their income and avoid paypal transaction fee's and asked for a check to cash instead, that should have been my first clue. So just be careful of scammers in general, not just the ones who are new, but all of them. The ones with the most excuses are usually the ones to be most cautious of, I've learned this the hard way... learn from my mistakes.

Ken Lee
20-Jan-2015, 14:47
It is easy to configure with Vbulletin (this forum's software)....

That way, if a new person finds something that they want for sale, they can just send the seller a PM, and the seller can decide if they want to sell to that person or not.

I'll make the other moderators aware of this option.

TXFZ1
20-Jan-2015, 14:50
Too funny

David

rdenney
20-Jan-2015, 15:14
OP, I simply warned you that asking a pool of likely buyers for a valuation is likely to bring out sharks. Don't take it personally. Join one of our other conversations and let's talk about photography.

The main issue was the sharks.

By the way, to those who want to relitigate the 30-day period, the for-sale forum was created as a service to established members, whether buyer or seller, not a service to those who have been here only to buy and sell. We would prefer not to provide service to those interested only in buying and selling. That's what I'll say when the mods discuss, just so everyone knows my position.

Rick "noting that the discussion is underway" Denney

Corran
20-Jan-2015, 15:24
established members,

I don't see a problem with that. But it's a disservice to the established members if they can't find buyers/sellers. Like I mentioned, who here doesn't own a 210mm lens if they shoot 4x5? I could list a Symmar-S for $25 and other than the type of person who'll flip it on eBay or someone who wants a Copal 1 for parts, no one would have any interest in it. The newly-registered forum members should have the option to browse the FS ads at least. What's the harm in that?

Also, "what is this worth" posters have also been advised to look at completed sales here, in the Classifieds, which of course they can't view, which means they can't research their lens or have comparable sales numbers.

thejester83
20-Jan-2015, 15:25
http://seveninchesofyourtime.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/shark-2.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dghbyBaQyI :cool:

lol:)

Old-N-Feeble
20-Jan-2015, 15:28
Makes me sad... :(

thejester83
20-Jan-2015, 15:35
How about we change the subject.... Does anyone like this picture that I took with my favorite dallmeyer?

128328

seeing pics like that make me what to keep the lenses and learn to shoot LF I just cant do that with Canon full frame:)

thejester83
20-Jan-2015, 15:40
is the Expensive part the lens or ?

thejester83
20-Jan-2015, 15:43
I cant find any thing on the Voigtlander & Sohn No6B I find other numbers and letters but no 6B. Is that a good thing? I have contacted an a appraiser but have not heard back yet.

StoneNYC
20-Jan-2015, 15:44
is the Expensive part the lens or ?

The glass is the expensive part to the extent that for ULF cameras the glass is necessary and limited to what's out there, the rest you could physically build (a box camera focused at infinity is just 6 planks of wood and a hole on one end and some wax paper on the other and a bungee chord and you could make an 11x14 camera.

I made mine with a cardboard box once and NO lens (pinhole) now I'm making one with a lens.

Point is, depends on the quality you want and what you want out of it, but more people have the capabilities to cut a decent piece of wood and glue or screw it together, then they do to create optics, so in effect the lens is the most expensive thing, so you have that, the rest is up to you.

thejester83
20-Jan-2015, 15:49
The glass is the expensive part to the extent that for ULF cameras the glass is necessary and limited to what's out there, the rest you could physically build (a box camera focused at infinity is just 6 planks of wood and a hole on one end and some wax paper on the other and a bungee chord and you could make an 11x14 camera.

I made mine with a cardboard box once and NO lens (pinhole) now I'm making one with a lens.

Point is, depends on the quality you want and what you want out of it, but more people have the capabilities to cut a decent piece of wood and glue or screw it together, then they do to create optics, so in effect the lens is the most expensive thing, so you have that, the rest is up to you.

it seems like the bigger ones are the ones people want are the ones the size of a soda can not what people use for some reason.

8x10 user
20-Jan-2015, 15:53
seeing pics like that make me what to keep the lenses and learn to shoot LF I just cant do that with Canon full frame:)

Thank you and that might that might be a good idea. You might like large format photography and were actually a pretty nice and welcoming community despite the bad early impression that I might have contributed to.

For this style of photograph the lens is generally the more expensive part. Your lenses would be great on an older wooden century studio view camera which can sometimes be found for low prices. The two bigger ones would cover 8x10. The dallmeyer you have is a variation of the petzval design. It is a sharp lens and will have a curved depth of field and sometimes a swirly look to the edges (swirly bokeh). The lens is sought after for the look which is used artistically. The second lens is a sharp rapid rectilinear. It is similar to the petzval in speed (max f stop) but without the curvature on the plane of focus. The out of focus areas have a more even and smooth look (good bokeh). Both lenses have narrow depth of field when used at the wide aperture which can be used artistically for selective focus photography. Because of the big maximum F stop many use lenses like this for wet plate colloidal photography.

The image that I showed above is from a soft focus lens. If you look around you can find examples from soft focus, petzval, and rapid rectilinear (euryscope) lenses. There are many good examples on Jim Galli's site (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/).

ghostcount
20-Jan-2015, 15:58
seeing pics like that make me what to keep the lenses and learn to shoot LF I just cant do that with Canon full frame:)

Indeed...

Hopefully, we can add 1 more person in this community if you do decide to keep the lens a little while longer and use it before making a decision.

Be warned, once you realize what we are saying about the large format quality you might find yourself deep in the rabbit hole. Perhaps you might find some one near you (if you would state your location) to show you how to use a large format camera. It would be an opportunity to gain more knowledge before taking a deeper plunge into large format.

Best of luck and keep coming to this forum.

8x10 user
20-Jan-2015, 16:06
Yes, I lost the $1000 after being defrauded when trying to purchase the said Cooke. I paid by US money order that I mailed. I thought It was a safe method to pay as mail fraud is a felony. Unfortunately the police department would not take the claim seriously and would not start a case until I called them three times. Then they forwarded the case to the post office. After many calls they finally started investigating the person. They arrested him but the district attorney dropped the charges because the police failed to obtain a copy of the tape where the money order was cash in a timely manner. If I purchased these lenses then I would have used paypal which sadly is a safer method... At this point I probably sound like a fool for trying to purchase from an unknown member a second time.

Its probably something to consider with the 30-day rule in regards to the forsale section. I dont see any easy answers regarding that.


Most of us also remember cases of fraud on this board, brought on by a new member "asking questions" about desirable, expensive lenses.

One in particular was a Cooke Semi-achromat, which the newbie posted in a very similar manner: "I found this lens in my grandma's attic, and know nothing about it." These are strange statements, full of warning flags. The seller says he knows nothing about a rare lens, but has access to the internet, and access to eBay, where All Dreams of Riches Come From? The seller cannot use those easy resources, but searches for an esoteric Large Format forum (somehow knowing that's the purpose of the lenses) to join? Cannot read the boldly engraved writing on the lenses, and google that exact text string? Etc. In this case, buyers contacted the person with the Cooke query right away privately. Several people had competing PM bids, while the open thread lingered with people guessing prices. Finally someone made a deal, $2,000 I believe, and sent a check to the new member. All by PM, under the forum table. The money was never seen again. The lens never appeared, and the "seller" disappeared, never heard from again. The address was an empty house.

So yes, this forum is cautious with new members asking about rare lenses. The OP's angry response is unusual, I'm not sure if it gives me a more secure feeling - or less.

thejester83
20-Jan-2015, 16:09
Indeed...

Hopefully, we can add 1 more person in this community if you do decide to keep the lens a little while longer and use it before making a decision.

Be warned, once you realize what we are saying about the large format quality you might find yourself deep in the rabbit hole. Perhaps you might find some one near you (if you would state your location) to show you how to use a large format camera. It would be an opportunity to gain more knowledge before taking a deeper plunge into large format.

Best of luck and keep coming to this forum.

I am in hood river Oregon and would love to play around with LF like I said I do digital photo but LF is a different ball game.

Iluvmyviewcam
20-Jan-2015, 16:13
OP...that is how forums are.

Photogs as well as all artists are a jealous bunch. Lots of hatred within many of them. They know their work will never amount to anything. They are stressed out trying to get attention for their work. All the while the market is polluted with so many images no one person could possible look through them all in a lifetime. Develop thick skin.

ghostcount
20-Jan-2015, 16:15
I am in hood river Oregon and would love to play around with LF like I said I do digital photo but LF is a different ball game.

Ahhh... I've been meaning to go to Oregon after seeing some images made by forum members there. Lots of member are from Oregon. Hopefully, they will chime in and contact you. Perhaps they can also show you some wet prints and judge for yourself.

Ken Lee
20-Jan-2015, 16:18
With respect to the option of opening the For Sale section to all users for buying - and keeping it closed for 30 days for new users whose intention is selling - I am reminded by other moderators that the For Sale section is provided to established forum members as a free service.

While regrettable that a small number of new users may be unable to buy immediately upon jumping into Large Format, the vast majority of members get a valuable resource.

Jim Galli
20-Jan-2015, 16:41
I am in hood river Oregon and would love to play around with LF like I said I do digital photo but LF is a different ball game.

Have a daughter in The Dalles and did some 6 1/2X8 1/2 at the air and car museum there. Pics at my website on the 2014 BW work pages.

My wood camera is worth perhaps $350. My big lenses add up to thousands. The platform to use the lenses isn't very expensive at all. What a gorgeous place to live. Being a desert rat though, the difference in water out of the sky in the 35 miles from Hood to the Dalles would definitely have me going east. Pretty there, but too wet for me.

fishbulb
20-Jan-2015, 16:44
While regrettable that a small number of new users may be unable to buy immediately upon jumping into Large Format, the vast majority of members get a valuable resource.

Well, it's only 'regrettable' to the sellers on the forum I suppose. The buyers - whether new or old members - have tons of options outside of this forum.

And, it's a buyers market for LF gear in general, and it's a global market place. In the last month I've picked up six Nikon LF lenses on eBay, all from Japanese camera stores. Shipping from Japan takes about 5 days.

So, no loss to me. I've got my all my LF gear now, and still have 7 days left to go on my 30-day wait period. ;-)

Jac@stafford.net
20-Jan-2015, 17:36
Yes, I lost the $1000 after being defrauded when trying to purchase the said Cooke. I paid by US money order that I mailed. I thought It was a safe method to pay as mail fraud is a felony. Unfortunately the police department would not take the claim seriously and would not start a case until I called them three times. Then they forwarded the case to the post office. After many calls they finally started investigating the person. They arrested him but the district attorney dropped the charges [...]

Permit me - I have a rather pessimistic view of police work, which is probably natural given the burden they have, however in the town just South of me an under-age girl disappeared. The FBI got onto the case and found a complaint by a citizen who was defrauded on the 'Bay, then they followed that deeper with the 'Bay and found enough cases to tick off one point. At the same time they found the perp lived near the missing girl. An interview with the parents confirmed a link, and they found the perp in a New Orleans motel within a week. Girl rescued, perp in jail forever.

So, sometimes it helps someone else when you report. Sometimes.

Lachlan 717
20-Jan-2015, 18:21
Why not just ban "What's it worth" posts for 30 days as well?

It seems to me that these types of posts are generally from 0-5 post, <1 month Members who come in, cause these types of shenanigans and are never heard from again...

I'm certainly not saying that the OP did this on purpose; it is probably more an unintentional/unavoidable result of the subject.

As for the argument that Buyers want immediate access to the FS section to "save" them paying too much on eBay, since when did this become a babysitting forum? IMO, they would be much better served spending 30 days trawling over the myriad threads in order to make an INFORMED purchase when/if they then decide to do so. While both sh!t me to tears, I'd prefer to answer a "What 4x5 camera/lens/tripod et al should I get" question over a "What is XXXX worth" question.

There is so much more to LF than buying the cheapest camera/lens/tripod et al...

Jim Jones
20-Jan-2015, 18:40
Large format photography is not for the impatient. Thirty days is a tiny fraction of a lifetime.

StoneNYC
20-Jan-2015, 18:50
When I first started out shooting film again after a hiatus from 2007-2011 or so, I found a bunch of forums and joined all of them, with suspicions that I might some day want to be more involved in them. Included in this was the LF forum, I joined and asked a few questions about finding LF gear under $100-$200 for a working camera, and was mostly laughed at, I didn't actually try to buy anything at that time, but I knew about the 30 day rule, so I pre-joined, and then didn't really get into LF until 6-8 months later, so the 30 day rule had no effect on me, I can't be the only one.

So in this way, it's true, in LF, waiting a year sometimes for your camera to be custom built isn't unheard of, but we also have to recognize that people NOW, newcomers, are used to the faster pace of digital, and we want to be able to hold onto them long enough that they start to yearn for the slower pace, if we lose them before they fall for the LF film world, it's really a loss for us.

A delicate balance to be sure.


Large format photography is not for the impatient. Thirty days is a tiny fraction of a lifetime.

fishbulb
20-Jan-2015, 18:52
Large format photography is not for the impatient. Thirty days is a tiny fraction of a lifetime.

but perhaps a larger fraction of one's *remaining lifetime* ... depending on age and health problems. life is short.

Lachlan 717
20-Jan-2015, 18:59
but perhaps a larger fraction of one's *remaining lifetime* ... depending on age and health problems. life is short.

It seems to me that, if it's that short, you're not likely to have time even if you didn't have to wait 30 days...

Jody_S
20-Jan-2015, 20:37
I just went and read through the original thread; welcome to LFPF, I guess! :p

You have some valuable glass there, you will need to learn quite a bit about antique lenses if you expect to sell all that for top dollar. Or you can do what most people do, put it up on eBay with a high price and slowly come down until they sell. But list them individually, with the best photos and descriptions you are able to give, answer all questions, and be patient. You will need several months to sell them all. And be sure to offer International shipping, these will mostly go to Asia. Do not, under any circumstances, take the first offer that comes along...

If you should decide to get into large format photography, the proceeds of the sale of just one of these lenses will easily set you up with a 4x5 camera & modern lens outfit, that you will learn more from than if you just decide to slap one of those on a wooden box and see if you can get a picture out of it.

Iluvmyviewcam
20-Jan-2015, 21:28
You would think the LF guys would be relaxed and easy going with their snail pace of shooting trees and rocks. But they are not. What would they do if they had to shoot where I do?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Gathering_of_the_Juggalos_Mosh_Pit_copyright_2014_Daniel_Teoli_Jr..jpg/994px-Gathering_of_the_Juggalos_Mosh_Pit_copyright_2014_Daniel_Teoli_Jr..jpg

Their cams would get ruined, they would have their flashes broken off their cams, socked in the jaw...the LF guys would shit their pants.

Randy Moe
20-Jan-2015, 22:01
You would think the LF guys would be relaxed and easy going with their snail pace of shooting trees and rocks. But they are not. What would they do if they had to shoot where I do?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Gathering_of_the_Juggalos_Mosh_Pit_copyright_2014_Daniel_Teoli_Jr..jpg/994px-Gathering_of_the_Juggalos_Mosh_Pit_copyright_2014_Daniel_Teoli_Jr..jpg

Their cams would get ruined, they would have their flashes broken off their cams, socked in the jaw...the LF guys would shit their pants.

Some of us have shot that for years. Not LF, but for me 35mm, DSLR's work best in the dark.

Jac@stafford.net
20-Jan-2015, 22:23
It seems to me that, if it's that short, you're not likely to have time even if you didn't have to wait 30 days...

That's a strange thing to write.
Care to elaborate?

Lachlan 717
20-Jan-2015, 23:20
That's a strange thing to write.
Care to elaborate?

What's strange about it? If somebody is new to LF and cannot afford to wait 30 days due to life expectancy, logically it won't make much difference if you get access to the FS section sooner. It's not that cryptic.

Jerry Bodine
20-Jan-2015, 23:49
but perhaps a larger fraction of one's *remaining lifetime* ... depending on age and health problems. life is short.

Life is not short ... it's just that we're dead for so long.

StoneNYC
20-Jan-2015, 23:55
You would think the LF guys would be relaxed and easy going with their snail pace of shooting trees and rocks. But they are not. What would they do if they had to shoot where I do?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Gathering_of_the_Juggalos_Mosh_Pit_copyright_2014_Daniel_Teoli_Jr..jpg/994px-Gathering_of_the_Juggalos_Mosh_Pit_copyright_2014_Daniel_Teoli_Jr..jpg

Their cams would get ruined, they would have their flashes broken off their cams, socked in the jaw...the LF guys would shit their pants.

Haha! You remind me of a friend of mine who shoots (more) fire performer photography (than me) and his strobes are covered in char and lamp oil, hah!

Good times ;)

rdenney
21-Jan-2015, 00:28
I don't see a problem with that. But it's a disservice to the established members if they can't find buyers/sellers. Like I mentioned, who here doesn't own a 210mm lens if they shoot 4x5? I could list a Symmar-S for $25 and other than the type of person who'll flip it on eBay or someone who wants a Copal 1 for parts, no one would have any interest in it. The newly-registered forum members should have the option to browse the FS ads at least. What's the harm in that?

Also, "what is this worth" posters have also been advised to look at completed sales here, in the Classifieds, which of course they can't view, which means they can't research their lens or have comparable sales numbers.

Browsing for-sale ads provides them all the access to buy that they would want, given that posting in the forum is not required to be a buyer or harass sellers as drive-by buyers who have no intention of participating here otherwise. I would not want to see people using that for-sale forum as an alternate to KEH. The for-sale forum is not there to make a market. It's there because established members wanted a way to transact such sales to each other. Under that limitation, the mods and owner agreed to endure the incessant hassles caused by providing that forum (and, even so restricted, the for-sale forum is the source of a high percentage of moderator interventions).

I belong to other forums that prohibit providing evaluations, for the very good reasons that 1.) prices are volatile, 2,) the evaluators often have a conflict of interest as potential buyers, and 3.) the condition of the item is nearly impossible to assess. If someone wants to suggest that we prohibit providing evaluations, the mods will entertain that. We would post a sticky to that effect, and let people refer to it every time someone asks for a valuation.

Rick "this is a non commercial site" Denney

jnanian
21-Jan-2015, 05:30
is the Expensive part the lens or ?

it depends ...

there are camera bodies that cost hundreds ( or less ) and others that cost thousands or more
there are lenses are the same .. there are some that you can get free with a bowl of soup
and others that cost as much as a small used car ...

and it also depends on if you want uber modern apochromatic cutting edge &c,
or if you want something that isn't that ... and the ones that aren't like that, sometimes no one knows about
and when someone learns about it they go from being 35$ to 1000$ in a matter of a few posts on a website or blog &c

that said, there are plenty of folks right here on this forum who use bigger than 8x10 formats
( 11x14, 12x20, 7x17 &c ) who don't use excessively expensive optics, they find something affordable and use it
( without having to make a big splash about it. ) and there are others enjoy the benefits modern lenses offer.
the cost/expense of equipment does not relate to the images that come out of the equipment ...
one could use things held together with string and duct tape, and a lens fashioned out of a cardboard tube and
a flint bought for 6 dollars shipped and make photographs of as much importance as the camera and lens that one
might need to take a second mortgage out to finance.

so the quick answer to your question, is ... sometimes, but not really...

koh303
21-Jan-2015, 05:44
OP, I simply warned you that asking a pool of likely buyers for a valuation is likely to bring out sharks. Don't take it personally. Join one of our other conversations and let's talk about photography.

The main issue was the sharks.

By the way, to those who want to relitigate the 30-day period, the for-sale forum was created as a service to established members, whether buyer or seller, not a service to those who have been here only to buy and sell. We would prefer not to provide service to those interested only in buying and selling. That's what I'll say when the mods discuss, just so everyone knows my position.

Rick "noting that the discussion is underway" Denney

Im all for making it 45 days, but much more than that - removing the for sale posts from the main feed of "new posts", just like some other sub forums which do not appear there.

If someone wants to, they know exactly where to look, right now the for sale posts are about a half or more of new posts at any time.

koh303
21-Jan-2015, 06:05
Browsing for-sale ads provides them all the access to buy that they would want, given that posting in the forum is not required to be a buyer or harass sellers as drive-by buyers who have no intention of participating here otherwise. I would not want to see people using that for-sale forum as an alternate to KEH. The for-sale forum is not there to make a market. It's there because established members wanted a way to transact such sales to each other. Under that limitation, the mods and owner agreed to endure the incessant hassles caused by providing that forum (and, even so restricted, the for-sale forum is the source of a high percentage of moderator interventions).

I belong to other forums that prohibit providing evaluations, for the very good reasons that 1.) prices are volatile, 2,) the evaluators often have a conflict of interest as potential buyers, and 3.) the condition of the item is nearly impossible to assess. If someone wants to suggest that we prohibit providing evaluations, the mods will entertain that. We would post a sticky to that effect, and let people refer to it every time someone asks for a valuation.

Rick "this is a non commercial site" Denney

I would say that short of adding an evaluation sub forum with a use at your own risk disclaimer, which will most likely cause even more time waste for all involved, mods and users. i recognize the ban on evaluations as a positive thing, as i see it handled on other forums discussing antiques etc., and in that - i second the motion to bring that ban here up for consideration.

jnanian
21-Jan-2015, 06:49
Im all for making it 45 days, but much more than that - removing the for sale posts from the main feed of "new posts", just like some other sub forums which do not appear there.

If someone wants to, they know exactly where to look, right now the for sale posts are about a half or more of new posts at any time.

hi koh303 ..

i got tired of seeing all the for sale ads and never hit the "new posts" tab .. just unified posts.
i don't see any ads at all and for the longest time i forgot there was even a for sale section here.
if that option didn't exist, i would probably eliminate/ignore the for sale forum altogether ...
and if that option didn't exist i probably wouldn't come here very often. the for sale threads and "post/pre-sale drama" about sales gone bad
aren't what i come here for, or originally came to this forum for ... ( and neither were the image threads .. while it is nice to see what people are able to conjure up
with their equipment, it isn't the main thrust of this website ... although it is a nice distraction from the endless tech-talk ... )

Corran
21-Jan-2015, 06:50
Browsing for-sale ads provides them all the access to buy that they would want

Okay, so what you are saying is that new members can see the Classifieds? Because that is news to me. For some reason I thought that forum was totally hidden from view until their 30 days were up.

It's been a long time since I was new (and I signed up initially for some reason and then didn't post or come to this site for over a month, so I wouldn't have noticed).

As to the issue at hand...it's amazing to me that I have bought or sold probably about $10-20k through this very forum and not one person has had an issue or as far as I know complained. I am betting it is only a very few people that get caught up in such problems.

goamules
21-Jan-2015, 07:30
...

By the way, to those who want to relitigate the 30-day period, the for-sale forum was created as a service to established members, whether buyer or seller, not a service to those who have been here only to buy and sell. We would prefer not to provide service to those interested only in buying and selling. That's what I'll say when the mods discuss, just so everyone knows my position.

Rick "noting that the discussion is underway" Denney

I like the hobby sites that don't allow valuations a lot more than those that do. Some of the sites I visit about much more volatile antiques (than LF) are pretty much "stock exchange" forums. Every post is "how did I do?" and "What is this worth" and "my haul this weekend." So I'm for not giving values to "what's it worth?" questions, at least in the open threads. But we don't get those questions very often, so it could also remain as it is, and I'd be fine.

A more important thing to discuss is members that are only here to buy or sell. Our latest two mass conflagrations this month were due to members that were here SOLELY to buy or sell. Ostensibly, they want to "learn all I can" but when the first post asks "...what is the value" I'll call a spade a spade. Like someone above said, most of our forum problems are from people, usually 0-10 feedback, complaining about some buy or sell that didn't please them. If you look, many sell constantly, after their 30 days wait. So it IS a sales forum for some. Others, they join and wait 30 days, then just cruise through to buy. The point is, they are not interested in contributing to the LF discussions, don't answer questions, don't post their work (sometimes don't even use LF, just buy/sell it).

Why not consider a "proportional" system, where you cannot sell or buy if you don't contribute at least 50% of your posts in the regular forum? Or 80%? or 10%? Again, many of our fights have been from people with zero (0) experience on the forum other than trying to get info to put in their Ebay listing, or to troll for shark buyers. Others post dozens of photography related items each month, with hardly ever a meaningful post.

"Like it or not, you've GOT a commercial sales site, unless the above is fixed."

BrianShaw
21-Jan-2015, 07:32
I would say that short of adding an evaluation sub forum with a use at your own risk disclaimer, which will most likely cause even more time waste for all involved, mods and users. i recognize the ban on evaluations as a positive thing, as i see it handled on other forums discussing antiques etc., and in that - i second the motion to bring that ban here up for consideration.

I would agree that a "no appraisal" policy would be a good thing.

djdister
21-Jan-2015, 07:37
I'm for banning the "how much is this worth" threads.

koh303
21-Jan-2015, 08:18
hi koh303 ..

i got tired of seeing all the for sale ads and never hit the "new posts" tab .. just unified posts.
i don't see any ads at all and for the longest time i forgot there was even a for sale section here.
if that option didn't exist, i would probably eliminate/ignore the for sale forum altogether ...
and if that option didn't exist i probably wouldn't come here very often. the for sale threads and "post/pre-sale drama" about sales gone bad
aren't what i come here for, or originally came to this forum for ... ( and neither were the image threads .. while it is nice to see what people are able to conjure up
with their equipment, it isn't the main thrust of this website ... although it is a nice distraction from the endless tech-talk ... )
+1

I think the for sale forum should be excluded ASAP, especially since in recent times, more often then not people dont even bother to head the postings with "FS" etc.,

StoneNYC
21-Jan-2015, 08:20
I like the hobby sites that don't allow valuations a lot more than those that do. Some of the sites I visit about much more volatile antiques (than LF) are pretty much "stock exchange" forums. Every post is "how did I do?" and "What is this worth" and "my haul this weekend." So I'm for not giving values to "what's it worth?" questions, at least in the open threads. But we don't get those questions very often, so it could also remain as it is, and I'd be fine.

A more important thing to discuss is members that are only here to buy or sell. Our latest two mass conflagrations this month were due to members that were here SOLELY to buy or sell. Ostensibly, they want to "learn all I can" but when the first post asks "...what is the value" I'll call a spade a spade. Like someone above said, most of our forum problems are from people, usually 0-10 feedback, complaining about some buy or sell that didn't please them. If you look, many sell constantly, after their 30 days wait. So it IS a sales forum for some. Others, they join and wait 30 days, then just cruise through to buy. The point is, they are not interested in contributing to the LF discussions, don't answer questions, don't post their work (sometimes don't even use LF, just buy/sell it).

Why not consider a "proportional" system, where you cannot sell or buy if you don't contribute at least 50% of your posts in the regular forum? Or 80%? or 10%? Again, many of our fights have been from people with zero (0) experience on the forum other than trying to get info to put in their Ebay listing, or to troll for shark buyers. Others post dozens of photography related items each month, with hardly ever a meaningful post.

"Like it or not, you've GOT a commercial sales site, unless the above is fixed."

In theory I think this idea has some weight, however in reality people often sell and buy in spurts if they are not real buyers and sellers, like when they first get into large-format and want to stock up on things, or when they decide to get out of large-format and want to sell all of their stuff in a fire sale, so sometimes the pattern of buying and selling would increase even if in general they weren't buying and selling much.

Instituting limits is tough.

Requiring someone to post at least one NEW LF image every quarter to their profile (by a system checking the scan in date) would certainly help weed out the users from the sellers a bit, it would be pretty obvious which were photographers and which were "for profit" users. But it might also be frustrating for purely analogue only folks who don't use a scanner, and of course you could take a bunch of images that were crap and scan them in each quarter, but it would be obvious who's a real photographer and who's not.

But I'm not suggesting we actually do this, just displaying how complicated it is to implement something and how that can also make the user experience less enjoyable and push members away.

goamules
21-Jan-2015, 08:48
Oh, I agree it would be complicated to implement. But I brought it up for discussion and thought. Thanks. I just note a lot of people with a hundred of posts if you do a "search" for them, but a "0" (or small) post count. Because this forum doesn't monitor posts in the For Sale section. As an old database and systems guy, I know there are ways to pull out and get a report on the ratios, sort them, etc. But probably too much trouble for little gain.

jnanian
21-Jan-2015, 09:25
+1

I think the for sale forum should be excluded ASAP, especially since in recent times, more often then not people dont even bother to head the postings with "FS" etc.,

i think it should be excluded too.

i wonder when mr greenspun would have said
back when he founded this venue on lusenet ... if the question arose.

while i suppose it is a nice place for commission free sales, it seems like more trouble than it is worth
and a distraction from the site as a whole. and while the advisory thread seems useful,
it seems like it was supposed to highlight interactions / sales/purchases on this site, not a place where
people might bring purchase/sales drama from another place, ePLay, photon-net, a'glugg, private sales &c
and drag it here.

ic-racer
21-Jan-2015, 09:30
I am a professional photographer

You own the lenses, you a photographer, why don't you tell us about them?
How much were they? What is the story behind how you acquired them? How long have you had them? Is the glass clean? Image circle? Focal length? Example negatives? Sharp? Blurry? Any markings on the lenses? What did you find on the internet about them?
You own them, how much are they worth to you?

StoneNYC
21-Jan-2015, 09:45
You own the lenses, you a photographer, why don't you tell us about them?
How much were they? What is the story behind how you acquired them? How long have you had them? Is the glass clean? Image circle? Focal length? Example negatives? Sharp? Blurry? Any markings on the lenses? What did you find on the internet about them?
You own them, how much are they worth to you?

Modern professional photographers wouldn't know anything about these lenses, this isn't a knock on the guy, it's a reality of the times. How many working NEW (25-35 year olds) professional photographers can make a living shooting large format? Not many, sure established photographers can, but new ones HAVE to be digital to really make it with the exception of very very very few, so cut him some slack.

But I do think it would be good to know the history as far as he knows where they came from and and such.

koh303
21-Jan-2015, 09:55
i think it should be excluded too.

i wonder when mr greenspun would have said
back when he founded this venue on lusenet ... if the question arose.

while i suppose it is a nice place for commission free sales, it seems like more trouble than it is worth
and a distraction from the site as a whole. and while the advisory thread seems useful,
it seems like it was supposed to highlight interactions / sales/purchases on this site, not a place where
people might bring purchase/sales drama from another place, ePLay, photon-net, a'glugg, private sales &c
and drag it here.

Indeed the pool of players as suggested by MOD Rick D., is not only limited but its more of a little puddle rather then a pool, with so many of the same tools on more then one forum but with the same antics. I think this is the least moderated forum, and the one with the most open space which is why the spillage ends up here more often then not.

thejester83
21-Jan-2015, 11:15
Modern professional photographers wouldn't know anything about these lenses, this isn't a knock on the guy, it's a reality of the times. How many working NEW (25-35 year olds) professional photographers can make a living shooting large format? Not many, sure established photographers can, but new ones HAVE to be digital to really make it with the exception of very very very few, so cut him some slack.

But I do think it would be good to know the history as far as he knows where they came from and and such.

It is not a Knock at all it is two different worlds I am all digital. My $3000 computer is one the most important pieces. Say that if you do one you can do the other is like saying if you can work on a 69 Yenco Camaro you can work on a bugatti veyron the have some things that cross over (like floor mats:p) but they are not the same

jnanian
21-Jan-2015, 11:17
yep --- spillage + nonsense ....

too bad the for sale area isn't locked down and a membership fee is required and a no questions asked 30% commission on every sale
the $$ goes directly a website "sales czar" who will have to deal with all the petty BS
and when the kitty reaches a certain amount the $ is donated to a place like project basho ( educates people about photography,)
or a charitable cause ( like disaster, hunger &c relief efforts )
and maybe out of that will be $ for the czar ( for dealing with the petty bs ) and
a much needed tip jar for the site's moderation staff who have had to endure more nonsense than anyone should.

i mean, if one member has spent 15thousand dollars here, it seems that maybe 30x that has taken place over the years.
that's a hefty contribution and a chance to do some real "good" ...
the current situation is more like a sideshow for people who don't want to deal with the structured guidelines
and guarantees that eBaggage and playpal offer ( which can afford to have guidelines and guarantees because of the commissions and fees )

thejester83
21-Jan-2015, 11:45
the other problem with making it hard to sell or find out what LF stuff worth is no one knows what it is and most people are very lazy so they are not going to take the time to find out what it is. I was told it was a old telescope and that it was broken and i should scrap it for the brass. I have had them for about 6 years I was helping a friend of a friend clean out his great grandmothers basement I found them in a box with a bunch of sh!t. I showed them what I found they told me to scrap them (this basement was full of scrap metal like 5 trailer loads and I told them I would help clean the basement if got to keep the cash from the steel) I told them something this old and cool had to be worth something they told me they did not have the time or care and I could do what ever I wanted with them and if I made money then good for me:) To tell you the truth if i add up all the time just trying to find info on them, taking them to antique shows, antique camera shops (and they all would not touch them) If and when I sell them I will have made about $5 an hour. All that to say it may suck dealing with one time poster just trying to sell stuff but it keeps this old and amazing stuff from being thrown away. I came here to find out what they are worth and now I have spent the last 3 days reading about this stuff and now I want to try shooting on it and the more young guys like my self that shoot will keep this art from dying off and if I do sell them at least they will go to people that will use them.

Randy Moe
21-Jan-2015, 12:09
'Picking' is fun.

Enjoy and drop this thread.

Try to use calm language, we all know what the first acronym in this thread's title means.

Taija71A
21-Jan-2015, 12:12
... If someone wants to suggest that we prohibit providing evaluations, the mods will entertain that...


I would agree that a "no appraisal" policy would be a good thing.


I'm for banning the "how much is this worth" threads.

___

+1

I too, would suggest... That the LFPF prohibit providing 'Evaluations'.
--
Best regards,

-Tim.
_________

Randy Moe
21-Jan-2015, 12:29
OK ban evaluations.

+1

StoneNYC
21-Jan-2015, 12:46
FWIW I think this forum is better moderated than any other, the moderators remove whole posts but don't always shut down treads, it's kind of like giving a time out instead of taking the toy away, you just remind people to stay in line, and then get back on track (usually) where other sites it seems people go crazy and get all mean and then the thread is either completely deleted so nobody remembers it, or shut down way too late in the game.

I think it helps to keep people a little calmer here than other places, and seeing the actual reason that your post was removed help to sort of give people closure, I know that sounds weird but if you have the post that you created and suddenly the entire post is just gone with no explanation, I've seen many people and I've even done where the next thing you do is make a new thread asking why deleted two and it's very frustrating with no actual response from "the management" where here at least you get some kind of explanation and it sort of allowed you to calm down and rethink things and makes for a better user experience in general.

At least that's how I feel.

Jody_S
21-Jan-2015, 12:51
I personally do not think the current system is broken. I do find some members are perhaps a little enthusiastic about sharing their opinions on certain subjects, including the motives of new members, old members, whoever (I'm trying to be polite). I've said before that this, IMHO, drives off quite a few potential new members who likely move on without even bothering to join. But the buy/sell forum is not broken and doesn't need to be fixed.

By the very nature of our craft and the current state of LF-related new gear on the market, most of us have bought, and will buy in the future, used LF gear. A lot of us would prefer to buy said gear from actual LF photographers who might be expected to know if a lens or darkslide is usable or not, rather than 'I found this sh!t in my attic, I'd like to cash out quick for a few $s'. And some of us turn into hobby dealers, who would prefer to buy the fake 'attic' gear if we think we're getting a deal, especially if we can test them out and resell at a profit; this might even finance our otherwise too-expensive hobby (assuming all goes well). These, and other behaviors, are the normal, inevitable result of practicing LF photography.

As for protecting us from ourselves, we're not a bunch of children and if some of us throw our money around without a care in the world, without due diligence or even going for the most basic of protections (like Paypal's 3% handling/insurance charge), then I personally won't suggest destroying the buy/sell forum over the resulting losses.

jbenedict
21-Jan-2015, 12:52
I told them something this old and cool had to be worth something they told me they did not have the time or care and I could do what ever I wanted with them and if I made money then good for me:) To tell you the truth if i add up all the time just trying to find info on them, taking them to antique shows, antique camera shops (and they all would not touch them) If and when I sell them I will have made about $5 an hour. All that to say it may suck dealing with one time poster just trying to sell stuff but it keeps this old and amazing stuff from being thrown away. I came here to find out what they are worth and now I have spent the last 3 days reading about this stuff and now I want to try shooting on it and the more young guys like my self that shoot will keep this art from dying off and if I do sell them at least they will go to people that will use them.

Things are worth what you can get people to pay you for them. A couple of months ago, a guy came here and was trying to sell a freezer full of film, some of it 30 years out of date. He had it all itemized out as to what it was, how old it was, etc. It was quite a list- maybe 300 or 400 rolls/boxes of film. He was trying to figure out what to sell each roll of film for and there were all sorts of suggestions how to do that. It finally came out that someone was coming to his house *with money to spend* the next day. I suggested that he determine how much money would satisfy him at the end of the next day to have that freezer empty. $50? $500? $5000? Sitting in the freezer, it was worth nothing to him and, frankly, it would be a little much of a risk to spend the time to shoot it and the money to process it (either himself or someone else) to perhaps have dodgy results because the film was 30 years past expiration. So, if someone would come the next day and give him $100 for the lot, he might be money ahead and, if he waited for someone to give him $500, it may never sell and have to be dumped anyway. Sell it roll by roll? Waaaay too much time and effort...

Same thing with the stuff you were given. The stuff which had value to sell by the piece would be easy to identify with a simple Google search and a search through the completed sales on eBay. After that, you might have to sell it by the box to one of these antique dealers you talk about. Or trade. Give five of these lenses for an old lamp or chair. Take this cool old camera for those three picture frames. 'Give me $50 and you can have the whole box'. Photography has been around for over 150 years and there is a lot of stuff out there which might look valuable but most of it is like computer equipment. I'll show my age by saying that, at one time, a 386-33 running DOS was considered a very, very hot computer that could do lots of way cool things. It was! And it still could do those things. But try to sell a 386-33 for anything today. You might have to pay to have it disposed. Some photography equipment is just not going to be worth very much money because of its age and what it can be used for now. That's how it goes. Take what you can get, use it or toss it out.

AlexGard
21-Jan-2015, 14:06
I find the online personalities of a lot of people on this forum make me think twice before posting anything, especially when asking opinions on things.

*ducks*

StoneNYC
21-Jan-2015, 14:29
I find the online personalities of a lot of people on this forum make me think twice before posting anything, especially when asking opinions on things.

*ducks*

*we see a flying shoe graze past Alex's head, a voice off camera*

"A shoe?! Who throws a shoe?!! ... Honestly..."

thejester83
21-Jan-2015, 15:31
Things are worth what you can get people to pay you for them. A couple of months ago, a guy came here and was trying to sell a freezer full of film, some of it 30 years out of date. He had it all itemized out as to what it was, how old it was, etc. It was quite a list- maybe 300 or 400 rolls/boxes of film. He was trying to figure out what to sell each roll of film for and there were all sorts of suggestions how to do that. It finally came out that someone was coming to his house *with money to spend* the next day. I suggested that he determine how much money would satisfy him at the end of the next day to have that freezer empty. $50? $500? $5000? Sitting in the freezer, it was worth nothing to him and, frankly, it would be a little much of a risk to spend the time to shoot it and the money to process it (either himself or someone else) to perhaps have dodgy results because the film was 30 years past expiration. So, if someone would come the next day and give him $100 for the lot, he might be money ahead and, if he waited for someone to give him $500, it may never sell and have to be dumped anyway. Sell it roll by roll? Waaaay too much time and effort...

Same thing with the stuff you were given. The stuff which had value to sell by the piece would be easy to identify with a simple Google search and a search through the completed sales on eBay. After that, you might have to sell it by the box to one of these antique dealers you talk about. Or trade. Give five of these lenses for an old lamp or chair. Take this cool old camera for those three picture frames. 'Give me $50 and you can have the whole box'. Photography has been around for over 150 years and there is a lot of stuff out there which might look valuable but most of it is like computer equipment. I'll show my age by saying that, at one time, a 386-33 running DOS was considered a very, very hot computer that could do lots of way cool things. It was! And it still could do those things. But try to sell a 386-33 for anything today. You might have to pay to have it disposed. Some photography equipment is just not going to be worth very much money because of its age and what it can be used for now. That's how it goes. Take what you can get, use it or toss it out.


You get this replay on almost all forms "would be easy to identify with a simple Google search and a search through the completed sales on eBay" I went though this when i put a fuel injected small block chevy in to my 88 land cruiser and asked for help on part numbers needed "use the search bar" or sending a link to a thread that is over 100 pages long that that i had already spent 2 days and read all the way though but all the links to the needed info are dead. In the end it is very simple if some noob(like my self) asks a stupid question and it is a waste of your time don't answer it and waste more of your time. If you would like to answer then do so and help a noob out. but if it makes you mad to do so then why would you do it. If you dont like this conversation then why waste your time. going back to ebay and google I found 1 and only 1 sold J H Dallmeyer 3A and nothing on the Voigtlander & Sohn 6b, lots on different Voigtlander and Dallmeyer but none that are the same but like i have said before and i will say it again some people have PM me and sent me in the right direction and I thank you for that but i will have more questions but I will think long and hard before I post them, I dont want to waste someones time by forcing them to read my post and ruin their day :p

mdarnton
21-Jan-2015, 15:35
I think the thing you need to remember is that whiners LIKE whining. It doesn't ruin their day, just everyone else's around them

Jim Galli
21-Jan-2015, 15:40
Your 6B lens is a bit of a mystery. I'd love to see it firsthand. I have Series II #6 and Series III #6, both are aplanat, Euryscop Portrait, but your Series I may be a petzval. If so, it may be one of the very fast ones, f3.2. Rarity doesn't add to the value as much as what the lens signature is in use. Believe it or not, we buy these to use. I seem to remember Eddie had a 7b. Maybe I'll see if I can rattle him into the discussion.

thejester83
21-Jan-2015, 15:43
this is true

thejester83
21-Jan-2015, 15:46
that would be cool to find more info on this one, I have contacted some appraisers but have not heard back yet.

adelorenzo
21-Jan-2015, 16:17
On APUG you can choose which forums to exclude from your "new posts" feed. That leads me to believe that it is something that could be turned on for this forum as well, since they use the same software.

koh303
21-Jan-2015, 17:19
...we're not a bunch of children ...

Unfortunately, that is sorely not true in many cases, resulting in heart ache for some, headaches for others, and pure amusement for all the rest.

I am not sure how money plays into this.

StoneNYC
21-Jan-2015, 17:43
Your 6B lens is a bit of a mystery. I'd love to see it firsthand. I have Series II #6 and Series III #6, both are aplanat, Euryscop Portrait, but your Series I may be a petzval. If so, it may be one of the very fast ones, f3.2. Rarity doesn't add to the value as much as what the lens signature is in use. Believe it or not, we buy these to use. I seem to remember Eddie had a 7b. Maybe I'll see if I can rattle him into the discussion.

If it's a petzval I would love it for portraits :)

Sadly as I told the guy, I'm in the $100-$200 Petzval range, I'll find one, won't be a name brand, who cares, lol, but very cool, wish he/she lived close, I would bring my gear and go shooting :)

Jim Galli
21-Jan-2015, 18:04
If it's a petzval I would love it for portraits :)

Sadly as I told the guy, I'm in the $100-$200 Petzval range, I'll find one, won't be a name brand, who cares, lol, but very cool, wish he/she lived close, I would bring my gear and go shooting :)

Eddie says it is a petzval. He has the 7b which is 14" f3.2 or maybe f3, and the 6b is 11 1/2 - 12" f3.2 or 3. If it were mine and I was going to sell it, I'd start it at $2800 and go down.

ghostcount
21-Jan-2015, 18:18
... If it were mine and I was going to sell it, I'd start it at $2800 and go down.

http://www.kelownanow.com/files/files/images/Real-Estate-Sellers-Market-Picture.gif

:cool:

Taija71A
21-Jan-2015, 18:27
Eddie says it is a petzval. He has the 7b which is 14" f3.2 or maybe f3, and the 6b is 11 1/2 - 12" f3.2 or 3. If it were mine and I was going to sell it, I'd start it at $2800 and go down.

This is perhaps? an example of why the Mods should discuss...
NOT allowing 'Evaluations' on the Forum.

It just opens up... Too many contentious BIG 'Can-O-Worms'.
--
Regards,

-Tim.
________

BrianShaw
21-Jan-2015, 18:29
That's me in the comic. I once put an offer on a house at thhe same time as someone else. My offer was accepted because the seller thouught I was "a nice boy". The truth is that I admired her rose garden and the other guy talked about ripping it out.

goamules
21-Jan-2015, 18:35
Eddie says it is a petzval. He has the 7b which is 14" f3.2 or maybe f3, and the 6b is 11 1/2 - 12" f3.2 or 3. If it were mine and I was going to sell it, I'd start it at $2800 and go down.

Well mine certainly was a Petzval!

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8211/8392627716_3f3bb8f3bf_b.jpg

F3.1 advertised. I told the OP to call me and I could tell him all he needed to know about his lenses. But he never did. Distracted by "value" PMs I guess.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8093/8391541669_5fd446c001_o.jpg

Taija71A
21-Jan-2015, 18:40
... Well mine certainly was a Petzval!

Now... That was a 'Very Nice' Lens! :)

Jim Galli
21-Jan-2015, 18:40
This is good example of why the Mods should discuss NOT allowing 'Evaluations' on the Forum.

It just opens up... Too many contentious BIG 'Can-O-Worms'.
--
Regards,

-Tim.
________

??? :confused: Did I step on your toes? Sorry, not.

thejester83
21-Jan-2015, 18:52
Well mine certainly was a Petzval!

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8211/8392627716_3f3bb8f3bf_b.jpg

F3.1 advertised. I told the OP to call me and I could tell him all he needed to know about his lenses. But he never did. Distracted by "value" PMs I guess.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8093/8391541669_5fd446c001_o.jpg

I am sorry for not contacting you yet. To tell you the truth I got a lot of PM telling me a lot of stuff and have been trying find what is what but i do want to talk to you. Yesterday I was on hold with my kids health insurance company for 6 hours (no joke) but that gave me a lot of time to do some reading. you are in Arizona right so I am one hour ahead of you yes?

StoneNYC
21-Jan-2015, 18:59
Well mine certainly was a Petzval!

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8211/8392627716_3f3bb8f3bf_b.jpg

F3.1 advertised. I told the OP to call me and I could tell him all he needed to know about his lenses. But he never did. Distracted by "value" PMs I guess.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8093/8391541669_5fd446c001_o.jpg

Wow that glass is beautiful!

I'm looking for glass that doesn't have mold, but isn't perfect either :) scratches would be nicer maybe some layers of dust as old as the lens, but decent enough brass you can tell its brass, Ya know, authentic with character ;) haha.

I mean I wouldn't turn down a nice lens, but I assume in my price range I won't find anything nice. If it's brass.

Taija71A
21-Jan-2015, 18:59
??? :confused: Did I step on your toes? Sorry, not.

Jim... No. No...
You are one of the very 'Good Guys'. :)
--
Your 'post' just happened to be posted (mere 'Timing and Coincidence'), when this very subject 'Lens Evaluations'... Was under discussion -- Elsewhere on the Forum.

That, is the ONLY reason that I 'cited' it...
--
I too, hope that I did NOT step on your toes. If so... I sincerely apologize also! :)
--
Best regards,

-Tim.
_________

StoneNYC
21-Jan-2015, 19:00
I am sorry for not contacting you yet. To tell you the truth I got a lot of PM telling me a lot of stuff and have been trying find what is what but i do want to talk to you. Yesterday I was on hold with my kids health insurance company for 6 hours (no joke) but that gave me a lot of time to do some reading. you are in Arizona right so I am one hour ahead of you yes?

By the way, since you're new here I'll let you know that this forum in particular has a very small mailbox, what I mean is that it will fill up quickly and you'll get no notification when people can't send you anymore messages, they just will get a reply saying sorry cannot send, often times after they have written something very long and elaborate and probably helpful, so try to keep your mailbox mall and delete messages that are unimportant and make sure you delete the sent messages as well after a time, to keep your total mailbox numbers soup mall so you don't get filled up and miss something important.

thejester83
21-Jan-2015, 19:05
By the way, since you're new here I'll let you know that this forum in particular has a very small mailbox, what I mean is that it will fill up quickly and you'll get no notification when people can't send you anymore messages, they just will get a reply saying sorry cannot send, often times after they have written something very long and elaborate and probably helpful, so try to keep your mailbox mall and delete messages that are unimportant and make sure you delete the sent messages as well after a time, to keep your total mailbox numbers soup mall so you don't get filled up and miss something important.

thank you

Jim Galli
21-Jan-2015, 19:35
Jim... No. No...
You are one of the very 'Good Guys'. :)
--
Your 'post' just happened to be posted (mere 'Timing and Coincidence'), when this very subject 'Lens Evaluations'... Was under discussion -- Elsewhere on the Forum.

That, is the ONLY reason that I 'cited' it...
--
I too, hope that I did NOT step on your toes. If so... I sincerely apologize also! :)
--
Best regards,

-Tim.
_________
That makes sense. thanks Jim

Taija71A
21-Jan-2015, 19:48
That makes sense. thanks Jim

No problem Jim. :)
You are always... More than Welcome!

-Tim.
_________

8x10 user
22-Jan-2015, 11:30
I thought all the euryscopes were rapid rectilinear (aplanat), a F/3.1 Petzval is much more desirable.

Good find!

Jim Galli
22-Jan-2015, 11:35
I thought all the euryscopes were rapid rectilinear (aplanat), a F/3.1 Petzval is much more desirable.

Good find!

Wrong. (imesho:~')) Petzval's are all the same and there's gajillions of them. F4 and F4.5 Aplanats with the look that Voigtlander got with theirs are spectacular and rare. No, I don't have any to sell, just saying the Euryscop Serie II and III are superb and truly rare.

8x10 user
22-Jan-2015, 11:41
I'm sure you right. You know this stuff better then I do.