4x5 Scanning

[andred2809]

Hi Folks,

I am in the market to buy my first scanner, only for 4x5 colour neg and slide.

The Epson 7***/V800/V850 will both fit in my budget, but I wanted to pick your brains prior to purchasing.

The only photography I shoot is Landscapes where I require as much front to back sharpness as I can get from the scan. Obviously I understand that for my 'favourite' images I will be heading to my drum scanning lab, what I am talking about here is the rest of the stuff.

Is the flatbed scanner my only option here for the price range?
Do people prefer other brands rather than the Epson?

Are there any sites or even this forum where I can download some hi-rez files from flatbed scans to look at myself in PS? or any kind 4x5 shooters that would let me have a look at some of there raw files?

thanks in advance,

Andy.

[Ken Lee]

Is the flatbed scanner my only option here for the price range?


Yes.



Do people prefer other brands rather than the Epson?


No.



Are there any sites or even this forum where I can download some hi-rez files from flatbed scans to look at myself in PS? or any kind 4x5 shooters that would let me have a look at some of there raw files?


In England you might want to get in touch with Tim Parkin (http://cheapdrumscanning.com/): a skilled craftsman, talented artist, excellent writer. You'll also find him at On Landscape (https://www.onlandscape.co.uk).

[IanG]

You're a long way from the NEC but there's usually excellent deals on Epson equipment at the Photography show at the NEC (used to be Focus on Imaging). I'm very impressed with the quality of the scans from my V750.

Ian

[andred2809]

You're a long way from the NEC but there's usually excellent deals on Epson equipment at the Photography show at the NEC (used to be Focus on Imaging). I'm very impressed with the quality of the scans from my V750.

Ian

Cheers Ian, amazon seems to have a very good deal on the V850 at the moment, I don't suppose you have an example hi-rez scan from a 4x5 colour neg or slide I could get hold of by any chance?, maybe VIA wetransfer.com? (andy@macred.co.uk). do you dry or wet mount?

Ta,Andy,

[IanG]

Hi Andy, not sure if I have Hi-rez colour scans from the V750, I think they were made with a Canon 2400U that I gave away recently. I haven't shot colour LF for maybe 20 years. I have used the V750 for some colour work but mostly off 120 negs or positives, I'm a B&W worker when it comes to film.

Ian

[Lenny Eiger]

The only photography I shoot is Landscapes where I require as much front to back sharpness as I can get from the scan. Obviously I understand that for my 'favourite' images I will be heading to my drum scanning lab, what I am talking about here is the rest of the stuff.

I see this differently.
If you want sharpness, you won't get it from a consumer flatbed. Get yourself a drum scanner.... any one of them is better than an Epson.


Is the flatbed scanner my only option here for the price range?
Not exactly. There are many Howtek 4500's out there, for around $1500. That's just a bit more than an Epson 850. One you can be very happy about, the other you will spend your money and not get the results you want..


Do people prefer other brands rather than the Epson?

The Epson is a low-end consumer-level scanner. Some people get more out of it than others. There are a lot of other options...

Lenny

[Bill McMannis]

I see this differently.
...
The Epson is a low-end consumer-level scanner. Some people get more out of it than others. There are a lot of other options...

Lenny

This is true. I purchased an Epson 4870 a decade ago which continues to serve me well. Particularly after upgrading to Silverfast AI I received very good results. Not as good as a professional drum scan, but good enough for some very fine 11x14 prints.

[fishbulb]

Not all drum scanners are created equal of course. The scanning comparison page (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/scan-comparison/) may be of interest to you, to see how much better the results actually are - i.e. is it worth buying an older drum scanner, or just using the Epson at home and sending off the best frames for drum scanning elsewhere?

Also remember that many old drum scanners need old computers to run them, and are usually much larger in physical size than a flatbed. Some of them will work on new computers with VueScan or SilverFast or a PhotoShop plugin, but some will need a specific operating system like Windows XP or even a 16-bit OS like Windows 98. Some will need a SCSI input on your computer, which most modern computers do not have. Others will only work on a Mac, and sometimes an older Power-PC (non-Intel Mac), and only with a specific version of MacOS. Many of the old drum scanners available are no longer supported by the original manufacturer, or the company is out of business, or there are not even any third-parties who will service them anymore. So be careful and do a lot of research before buying an old drum scanner so you know what you're getting into.

If you get the Epson, you may want to look at the adjustable-height film holders from Better Scanning (http://www.betterscanning.com/). If you get an old drum scanner you might want to call Genesis (http://www.genesis-equipment.com/productslink_Refurbished-Scanners_6.aspx) and see if they have any refurbished drum scanners in your budget that will work with modern computers.

[Adam Long]

Andy,

I had the same dilemma as you 18 months back. I've had a decent MF scanner for years (Nikon 8000) so have some experience of scanning. A mate locally did a few scans for me on his Epson. Despite him having a well set up machine and knowing how to get the best out of it I was underwhelmed by the results. I didn't really fancy sinking £500 into one after that and kept an eye on ebay for drum scanners. After a few months I picked up a Scanmate 5000 from a graphics company and London for £240. Bit of a drive to pick it up but given the size, weight and fragility you're unlikely to get one shipped. I had to mess about a bit buying SCSI leads and terminators, and setting up a Win XP machine, but the first scan (even dry-mounted) blew the Epson away. You don't get much pre-scan control other than cropping but the results are impressive. It also goes up to 5000dpi so it can squeeze a few more pixels out of MF and 35mm than my Nikon.

[richardman]

I use a V700 for my 617 and 4x5. I also have years of experience scanning with the LS-5000, LS-8000 and LS-9000.

I have made good looking 24x30" print that people are hanging on their wall. I have once have someone made a comparison scan with an Imacon 363 and the scan did not look better.

A real drum scan will probably look quite a bit better but you are talking a lot more effort needed to make a scan.

[Lenny Eiger]

I have once have someone made a comparison scan with an Imacon 363 and the scan did not look better.

A real drum scan will probably look quite a bit better but you are talking a lot more effort needed to make a scan.

Richard,

Drum scans are better, its true. However, I just went and looked at your site and while you may benefit from better sharpness of the drum scan, your work will not take advantage of the increased tonal separation possible. You like to print a certain way, and that's your preference, I have no problem with it - or any judgment. Everyone gets to choose their style. However, it's the type of printing where any decent scanner will look good, allow you to make a good print, etc.

I would agree that there is a bit more effort required in setting up a drum scanner. However, once set up it takes the same amount of effort as any other type. The difficulty that people talk about doesn't really exist... not in my opinion...


Lenny

[Andrew O'Neill]

Not very many of us can afford a drum scanner. I have been using the V750 for a year now and it has done an exceptional job. I wet mount scan to make digital negs up to 16x20 and my alt prints look great.

[richardman]

I laugh :-) p.s. if you look at http://richardmanphoto.com, that's not my latest. Most/all of my 4x5 can be found on, for example, the Portrait threads on LFF.

In any case, I paid for a contact print 8x10 done by a photographer who merited a 7-10 page thread a few months ago and someone who ordered the same print gushed about how sharp the print is etc.

Bollock - my 17x22 inkjet print from scanned 4x5 looks much sharper than a contact print 8x10. And lets not talk about the great tonal quality either :-)

BTW, I write compilers for my dayjob, lets just say I know quite a bit about computers. I know I can make drum scanning works for me, but most people, forget about it. When the SCSI driver throws up a "LUN 0 error" or if you dedicate a machine and then needing to know how to share folders from an ancient Mac to a Win 8.1 machine, most people would run away in horror.

[richardman]

You can get drum scanners as low as $1000-$1500, so the cost isn't the major problem, and the improvements would be there, but IMHO - which obviously others disagree on - the incremental improvements aren't worth the hassle.

[Paul Ewins]

I'm in a similar situation, trying to decide between a V700 and a V800 which is an extra $100. Is there any benefit to the v800 when scanning 4x5 or 8x10? I've got an LS8000 for smaller stuff so it is just LF film that is the priority.

[richardman]

If the difference is only $100, I would go for the newer model. I have a V700 and unlikely to "upgrade" but if you don't have one yet, that's a different story.

[Nigel Smith]

I went from a 1650 to a V700 (or is it a V750.. I can't remember now) recently and once resized for the web, I can't tell the difference :)

[richardman]

"resized for the web" - well yes, if your ultimate output is just the web, throw away your large format camera and use the iPhone :-)

[andred2809]

You should do subcontract work Adam 😠 anywhere near co Durham? 😋

Where did you find the drum scanner Adam, EBAY or ?

In the mean time I have bought a used Epson 4990, which I have read gives v similar results to the 7** range, so worst case I will use it to proof colour negs in order to decide which ones I either want scanning at digilab or drum scanning. A guy in the UK does it at a reasonable price(tim Parkin), though I am an 80's child techno geek so having a go at drum scanning ain't off the table, though all the ones I've managed to find have been in the mid thousands £''s not hundreds.


Andy,

I had the same dilemma as you 18 months back. I've had a decent MF scanner for years (Nikon 8000) so have some experience of scanning. A mate locally did a few scans for me on his Epson. Despite him having a well set up machine and knowing how to get the best out of it I was underwhelmed by the results. I didn't really fancy sinking £500 into one after that and kept an eye on ebay for drum scanners. After a few months I picked up a Scanmate 5000 from a graphics company and London for £240. Bit of a drive to pick it up but given the size, weight and fragility you're unlikely to get one shipped. I had to mess about a bit buying SCSI leads and terminators, and setting up a Win XP machine, but the first scan (even dry-mounted) blew the Epson away. You don't get much pre-scan control other than cropping but the results are impressive. It also goes up to 5000dpi so it can squeeze a few more pixels out of MF and 35mm than my Nikon.

[Nigel Smith]

:-)

[Doug Fisher]

The best deal on a V7xx is the refurbished units from the clearance center at the online Epson Store. Stock varies daily so they can be hard to find in stock. As of this morning, the V700 is $415.00 with free fast shipping (the V7xx and V8xx still use the same optic system). I have a number of customers who have had good luck with these. When there has been an issue, Epson has done express swapping of the bad units. No affiliation with Epson. Just passing along what has been a good deal for others.

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/consumer/consDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&oid=63068980

Doug

[Heroique]

I have a number of customers who have had good luck with these.

I'm one of them, a refurbished 4990 for $279 plus free shipping.

It looked new. :)

The refurbished V700 currently for $415 is a good deal.

[biedron]

When there has been an issue, Epson has done express swapping of the bad units.
Doug

This was my experience. A few years ago I bought a refurbished V700 from Epson. Worked great for a few months, then refused to scan. After a call to Epson service where they suggested a number of things to try with no avail, they sent another refurbished unit. The replacement has worked well ever since.

Bob

[Adam Long]

You should do subcontract work Adam �� anywhere near co Durham? ��

Where did you find the drum scanner Adam, EBAY or ?

In the mean time I have bought a used Epson 4990, which I have read gives v similar results to the 7** range, so worst case I will use it to proof colour negs in order to decide which ones I either want scanning at digilab or drum scanning. A guy in the UK does it at a reasonable price(tim Parkin), though I am an 80's child techno geek so having a go at drum scanning ain't off the table, though all the ones I've managed to find have been in the mid thousands £''s not hundreds.

Yeah, it was on ebay. It was a bit of a gamble as the listing didn't have much detail and I couldn't test it. I figured at the price Tim charges for scans if I got 15 scans out of it it'd pay for itself. Well I've had well over a hundred now so even if it dies tomorrow the price per scan is pretty good.

I do subcontract scanning but don't really advertise it. In Sheffield so not far away, but Tim would be closer.

I was surprised how easy using the scanner is. A little tricky setting up, but the actual scanning is easy. Should be, I think they were £35k new!

[fishbulb]

Yeah I agree; I think the best place to get a used drum scanner is probably from a printing or graphics company, because you can get a whole kit and not just the scanner. There are a lot of other things you need, as you can see in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APSzB0nX5Vo).

I recently bought a Howtek 4500 (4000 dpi drum scanner) from a local printing company that was going out of business. It was very fortunate timing and I figured I'd better just jump on it - how often would the opportunity come up? Not often I'm sure.

For a flat $1000, I got the scanner, cables, SCSI card, drum mounting station, three drums, many rolls of tape (Kami/Tesa/gaffers), lots of Aztek wipes and mylar, and about ten bottles of Kami drum cleaner/drum mounting fluid/film cleaner, some spare parts, spare light bulbs, multi-roll tape dispenser, and a relatively recent version of Aztek's Digital Photo Lab (DPL) on a CD, with the dongle (a USB stick that you need to run the software, a copy-protection gimmick). I also got a demo of how to use it, while it was still set up, from their employee who had been drum scanning for many years.

I did the same math as Adam - it wasn't much more expensive than an Epson + a betterscanning.com mounting station, and it should "pay for itself" after a couple dozen scans. There is a local company that does flatbed scans for $15 per 4x5 and another that charges by the megabyte. Even at $15/scan, it's paid back after 67 scans.

If I had Tim scan them at 4000 dpi, using the current exchange rate, that's $38/scan. Which is actually pretty cheap, when you look at other drum scanning services in the U.S. They range from $95/scan (http://www.drumscanning.com/rates.html) to $135/scan (http://www.eigerphoto.com/pricing_policy_ep.php) to $200/scan (http://www.dannyburk.com/drum_scanning.htm) (all at 4000dpi). Many more charge by the megabyte, and a 4x5 4000dpi scan can be well over a gigabyte of data, so with most pricing schedules you're looking at $100+/scan.

So if you want to scan more than a few frames, and you have the time and space for it, that used drum scanner starts to look like a pretty good deal!

[Adam Long]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Linotype-Hell-3300-scanner-/111567338013?pt=UK_Scanners&hash=item19f9ee7a1d

Bargain!!! How much room have you got Andy?

[cristimirica]

Hi guys

I have an Epson V800 especially for 4x5 negatives and ...I don't understand how the negative should be installed in holder. See the holder picture attached. Should the film be placed OVER the sides "A" ? I did so and on the scanned file the long sides of the scanning file have light leak...

4x5 holder

127804

scanned picture

127805

thanks !

[Jim Noel]

Hi Folks,

I am in the market to buy my first scanner, only for 4x5 colour neg and slide.

The Epson 7***/V800/V850 will both fit in my budget, but I wanted to pick your brains prior to purchasing.

The only photography I shoot is Landscapes where I require as much front to back sharpness as I can get from the scan. Obviously I understand that for my 'favourite' images I will be heading to my drum scanning lab, what I am talking about here is the rest of the stuff.

Is the flatbed scanner my only option here for the price range?
Do people prefer other brands rather than the Epson?

Are there any sites or even this forum where I can download some hi-rez files from flatbed scans to look at myself in PS? or any kind 4x5 shooters that would let me have a look at some of there raw files?

thanks in advance,

Andy.

I prefer Microtek over anything Epson makes. Negatives are scanned by transmission rather than by reflection. There is no glass between the negative and the imaging light or sensor.

[Preston]

I have an older Microtek 1800F that does a really good job with my 4x5's. The holder does a great job keeping the film tight and flat.

If you find one used, be advised that neither Microtek or the makers of Silverfast have drivers for Windows 7 64 bit, so you'll have to use VueScan, which works just fine. I don't know about Mac.
-p

[daisydaisy]

I've never used any staining developers, opting instead for HC-110 as a standard soup. My workflow is analog-to-digital; my negatives are always scanned. With this in mind, is a staining developer worth trying?

Thanks,


Large format scanning services (https://scannmore.com/services/blueprint-scanning/)

[David Schaller]

I've never used any staining developers, opting instead for HC-110 as a standard soup. My workflow is analog-to-digital; my negatives are always scanned. With this in mind, is a staining developer worth trying?

Thanks,


Large format scanning services (https://scannmore.com/services/blueprint-scanning/)

I'm not sure what you are asking, or if there is a problem you are trying to solve. Many of us use staining developers for various reasons, and have no problem scanning the negatives. I use Pyrocat HD, and scan on an Epson 4990, for both roll films and sheets.

[Pere Casals]

Are there any sites or even this forum where I can download some hi-rez files from flatbed scans to look at myself in PS? or any kind 4x5 shooters that would let me have a look at some of there raw files?



If you have any doubt you can see this: https://petapixel.com/2017/05/01/16000-photo-scanner-vs-500-scanner/

For 4x5" the V850 resolves even more than the Hassy. For 8x10 the V850 is really poweful, see here the bolts at the top of the bell, compare the crop size. https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592977@N05/32535835184/in/dateposted-public/

The V850 (and all the flatbeds) has more stray light than drums, drums can see better very deep densities that are not normally present in color negative of BW, but can be there sometimes with slides.

With the V850 use Multi-Exposure feature (of Silverfast) in you have very, very deep shadows in slides, but in that arena is where drums and the hassy excels, at very high cost.

One think I find is that V850 image is less cooked by the scanner/drivers than with Pro scanners, but as that article (petapixel) mentions it can be solved with some clicks with Photoshop, some sharpening and an slight touch in the curves solves it.

IMHO V850 is not as good for 35mm film, it is acceptable for most shots, but a very sharp (unusual) shot may deliver more with other gear. A powerful combination is having a 35mm only dedicated roll film scanner like the Plustek, and a V850 for MF and LF. With that gear you only may need a drum service for Velvia very deep shadows if that it is important.

Color negative film it is easy to scan because in the digital minilabs era most common negative color films were re-engineered to have overlapping clouds to perform well in Frontier minilabs and the like, while Velvia retains smaller clouds.

[Pere Casals]

I've never used any staining developers, opting instead for HC-110 as a standard soup. My workflow is analog-to-digital; my negatives are always scanned. With this in mind, is a staining developer worth trying?

Thanks,

Large format scanning services (https://scannmore.com/services/blueprint-scanning/)


IMHO the stain delivers an easier to scan negative, but this should be significative in 35mm (or even MF), way less with LF.