Project to Produce a 12" f/3.6 Petzval Gathering Steam

[Gerald Figal]

I project I initiated out of demand from wetplate collodion photographers on the Facebook page I administer (Collodion Bastards) is reaching the point to decide on how to fund it (Kickstart or not), so I posted a poll on the group page to gather opinions (https://www.facebook.com/groups/collodionbastards/).
A brief rundown of the project can be found pinned atop The Large Format Photography Society Facebook group page (https://www.facebook.com/groups/406834362683813/).
All feedback is welcomed and appreciated!

[mdarnton]

Won't touch Facebook with a ten-foot pole, myself.

[Gerald Figal]

Yeah, I know, FB pretty much sucks and it's going to suck more with new policies come January 1, but it IS useful for gathering like-minded people in an interactive way as long as you ignore the dross.
In brief, some folks from the group expressed dismay at the skyrocketing prices and/or dearth of vintage stock (supply and demand...) for larger, fast Petzval portrait lenses for wetplate. So, I decided to contact a well-qualified optical engineer with an interest in historical lenses and lots of experience in lens design and manufacture (Steve Eckhardt) to sound him out about maybe producing a brand new one to modest but respectable specs at a price that would not require the sale of a kidney. After some back and forth and data gathering and price quotes, we settled on a 12" f/3.6 Petzval (Dallmeyer design, close to the 11.5" f/3.5 3B) in an aluminum barrel with hood and 4 additional Waterhouse stops for a target price of $900 IF we can do a production run of at least 50 units (brass is upwards to $400 more per unit and irises likewise raise costs considerably). Uncoated because coating is irrelevant for our approximation of a 19th-century lens and coating costs more too.
The rationale behind a 12" f/3.6 is that it hits a kind of sweet spot on focal length, speed, and price. Depending on how you shoot, for portraits, it would technically be ideal for 5x7 and whole plate, and quite good on 8x10 if you're into swirl. In other words, it would probably cover a greater number of wetplate collodion users (even 4x5 to half plate if your lens board is big enough--the barrel diameter will be about 4"), although I realize that there are greater number of 4x5 users of film (myself included). In the future, if the first version goes well, we will consider larger and smaller focal length versions. Also, there might be a premium brass version for the brass fetishists with deep pockets.
If you want to check out Eckhardt Optics, their website is: http://eckop.com/
while their blurb on camera lens types are here: http://eckop.com/optics/opticsadvanced-lenses/camera-lens-types/
and handy graph on lens types is here: http://eckop.com/optics/opticsadvanced-lenses/
And if you want the quick profile on Steve Eckhardt (degree from the very well-regarded U of Arizona College of Optical Sciences, lots 'o related work experience with 3M and Corning), check it out here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steveeckhardt

At the moment we are trying to decide whether to Kickstart or do it directly via $100 commitment deposits that would be used toward production once a 50-buy-in goal is met (most folks so far are opting for doing it directly to avoid 10% fees between KS and Amazon). In either case, we will have also have to fund development of a prototype to be tested. Bottom line is that the more buy-ins, the lower the price--although savings on bulk orders of parts tapers off after 100 units.

[ghostcount]

Thanks Gerald for getting this post back on track.

Keep us posted here, I'm surely interested.

[Tin Can]

Gerald, this sounds great. I most likely will join the purchase group.

Thank you!

[IanG]

I think a dilemma is that 12" Petzvals can still be found quite cheap secondhand, well at least in the UK. I guess the wet plate demand is much higher in the US.

Ian

[Jim Noel]

I think a dilemma is that 12" Petzvals can still be found quite cheap secondhand, well at least in the UK. I guess the wet plate demand is much higher in the US.

Ian

They are anything but cheap in the USA.
I am balancing my books to see if I can participate in the near future.

[IanG]

They are anything but cheap in the USA.
I am balancing my books to see if I can participate in the near future.

I can understand that. 7x5 (5x7) cameras and film holders are very cheap in the US, expensive in Britain/Europe. It's swings and round-abuts.

Perhaps more important with this Petzval project is the coverage if a new Petzval 12" lens will cover 10x8 at Infinity that makes a huge difference.

Ian

[Old-N-Feeble]

I'm sorry about my facebook comment. I didn't intend to be rude. I won't comment again.

[Tin Can]

I'm sorry about my facebook comment. I didn't intend to be rude. I won't comment again.

I am not sorry about my comments.

But I got informed I am rude also.

Such is life. :)

[Gerald Figal]

No worries about rude comments, etc. They don't faze me; I just ignore them.
In any case, there IS some debate about supply/demand/price. Indeed, SOME 12" secondhand Petzvals can be found (with diligent searching) in some markets, but there seems to be a shrinking secondary market relative to demand--at least some folks have expressed frustration at ever finding anything accessible (physically and/or economically) and then envy those that do (which leads to further frustration). And there is always the issue of the condition and performance of anything you do find secondhand. Of course there are well-known high-profile vintage brands that are reliable (Dallmeyer, Voigtländer, Hermagis, etc.), but a comparable 3B in good shape is going to set you back at least $900 in the current market. This project aims to serve that group of potential buyers (shooters, not collectors) who for whatever reason can't get the gear they want and who care more about the final product (photo image) than a lens's provenance (social image).

[IanG]

Gerald, I think you're right there would be a demand for a good modern 12" Petzval, after all Lomography now has it's own new Petzval made in Russia for the DSLR market. I'd contact the makers of repro Wet plate cameras see what they say, I'd guess a few would be interested in either selling or recommending a new 12" Petzval.

Some markets are shrinking, there is far less LF equipment as a whole available on Ebay or through dealers second-hand now compared to a decade ago and prices have been rising as a consequence. Here in the UK a good example would be LF enlargers 10 years ago there would be over 30 De Vere enlargers listed at anyone time moistly 504's with maybe a couple if 5108's now it's more like 3 or 4 listed at any one time.

I was lucky and found a good Petzval at a flea market for next to nothing, it looked terrible so it was a risk, in fact it cleaned up perfectly, but that's luck and patience and a seller who knows what I might like. I haven't seen another similar in the last 5 or 6 years, only smaller/shorter projection Petzvals which were for lantern slide projectors.

So yes there must be a market. just as there's a market for repro Wet plate cameras.

Ian

[Steven Tribe]

but a comparable 3B in good shape is going to set you back at least $900 in the current market.

I think you are underestimating the present level by a factor 2!

As the availability of bargain 3B's dries up, most dealing with 3Bs is from user to user - hence the stability of current high prices.


As to re-manufacture of a Dallmeyer Patent 3B - I just don't think the economics will work out. There is all awful lot of precision brass machining and the possibilities of making a lot of scrap metal is present(although it would not as devastating as plastic casting faults). Cooke has recreated a few classic designs - but these have not been cheap for the purchasers or lucrative for Cooke.
Even if the price is kept under what 3B go for, 3Bs will still command a premium.

If intrepid people want to carry on, then I would suggest you make an exact clone (lenses and, perhaps cells) of the 3B (F3.16) so that the many owners of parts/damaged 3bs can buy replacement lenses.
Which would provide more wetplate lenses for the market!

[koh303]

At the moment we are trying to decide whether to Kickstart or do it directly via $100 commitment deposits that would be used toward production once a 50-buy-in goal is met (most folks so far are opting for doing it directly to avoid 10% fees between KS and Amazon). In either case, we will have also have to fund development of a prototype to be tested. Bottom line is that the more buy-ins, the lower the price--although savings on bulk orders of parts tapers off after 100 units.

This is a great project - good luck.
I am a great supporter of kickstarter. More poeple who are not exposed to this forum or your FB page, might be interested, kickstarter is a way to get to them.

[Gerald Figal]

Thanks for the tips and feedback all. There's kind of a weird dynamic among wetplaters that I've been having to tiptoe around because it includes friends of mine and it's totally predictable--that is, the hardcore historical purist types (and there are many among wetplaters by definition) do not at all like this idea (for a number of reasons, I suppose) although they are civil enough not to say that openly and explicitly. Long story short, they like doing it the hard way, including the hunt for that vintage lens, sometimes regardless of price (I've done plenty of that too, so I understand the appeal) To do anything less than that -- like produce a comparable lens available at the click of a mouse -- is not kosher. Some of the secret naysayers have been raising issues of economics and numbers, claiming there are plenty 12" fast Petzvals available if you are simply patient and look. I'm not convinced, but more importantly not all users necessarily have the time and inclination to comb every forum and auction site and estate sale and photo fair. And those lenses that are out there have gotten more expensive, as Steven points out. I've been following prices on almost a daily basis for a few years and I've seen a spike across the board over the past year and that's keeping a lot of latecomers locked out from the good stuff. It was actually the expressed frustration from such a person that got me going on finding some kind of solution rather than simply sitting around complaining about it. I had no plans to do this; I just took the lead on it because I get tired of all talk no action.
Anyway, to kickstart or not to kickstart is a tricky. I've heard pros and cons from both sides and still trying to decide on that question. Frankly, whichever way can best secure the 50 minimum is what I'd go with.
Please continue the conversation if you have other input and advice.

[Tin Can]

I agree with Steven, make an exact copy of the most desired lens.

[Gerald Figal]

For practical reasons we were indeed considering an exact replica (despite the vagaries of glass now versus then) and still might try that -- Mark Ostermann even said he would open up the Eastman collection if the designer wanted to do measurements of vintage lenses. That still might happen.

[IanG]

Dallmeyer's archives are available (& accessible) here in the UK, they should include the full design specifications of their lenses.

Ian

[Steven Tribe]

despite the vagaries of glass now versus then

Glass is just glass - just with different refractive indices!


If you are considering the reproduction of the 3B, you will have to consider which of the 2 versions is mostly desirable, easiest to make and use and most reliable - long term.

"Front turn" model

-was occasionally sold in aluminium.
-is without the sleeve.
-does have locking/seizing-up problems (but these might be due to improper long term storage!).

"Rear Notch" adjustment

-user adjustment a PITA (but understandable!). Easier cleaning of rear cells.
-sleeve design completely unnecessary for cameras made since 1870.
- nostalgia.

Having reconstruction experience on 4 3B's I would suggest the following:

1. Do not use the "brass turn over" system to mount the front achromat. Screw-in threads, which Ross, Darlot etc. used on their big portrait Petzvals) is far better in the long run.
2. Make a mechanical system to increase/reduce the distance between the front and rear cellls. Darlot was onto something very interesting when he made the Universal which allows for changing this distance.
One of my efforts with a 3B was making a new barrel which didn't end up with the "correct" mm distance and a Wetplater - in a direct comparison with a normal 3B - thought it was better!

[koh303]

Anyway, to kickstart or not to kickstart is a tricky. I've heard pros and cons from both sides and still trying to decide on that question. Frankly, whichever way can best secure the 50 minimum is what I'd go with.
Please continue the conversation if you have other input and advice.

Well, finding out if your FB platform will get you 50 orders is simple - make a post with a deadline and see what happens. If it does not work - run a kickstarter, urging all those who signed up on FB to try again. Raise the price, or min number of orders needed to match the cost, if needed.

[Gerald Figal]

Actually, glass is not just glass. I've been reading a lot about the manufacture of glass since the early 19th century and there are a lot of differences in glass based on materials and method of manufacture. Even within the same factory there can be variations.
As for final design, it will be partially bound by cost considerations. What you lay out here, Steven, is ideal. I'm not sure if reality can hew to that ideal. But maybe. I need to get back to Eckhardt to talk details on design costs.

[adelorenzo]

The last Dallmeyer 3B sold on eBay for almost $3000. The last one that sold on this forum went in less than six hours at a $2000 asking price, the one before that in less that 24 hours at $2000 asking price. Obviously no way of knowing what the final sale price was.

So, if someone can sell me one for $900 my money is ready, otherwise I look forward to backing your project.

[IanG]

Actually, glass is not just glass. I've been reading a lot about the manufacture of glass since the early 19th century and there are a lot of differences in glass based on materials and method of manufacture. Even within the same factory there can be variations.
As for final design, it will be partially bound by cost considerations. What you lay out here, Steven, is ideal. I'm not sure if reality can hew to that ideal. But maybe. I need to get back to Eckhardt to talk details on design costs.

I'd be looking at all possible options, the Russian who make the Lomo Petzval have the experience of making a new lens, there's a new member here who's a lens designer and als well as Eckhardt, there's probably others out there.

Ian

[Gerald Figal]

I like Echkhardt's background, experience, and willingness to take on what he describes as "a cool gig". And that fact that when I told him in my very first email to him that we were interested in designing a modern Petzval his response was "Petzval's original design or Dallmeyer?" :)

[IanG]

I like Echkhardt's background, experience, and willingness to take on what he describes as "a cool gig". And that fact that when I told him in my very first email to him that we were interested in designing a modern Petzval his response was "Petzval's original design or Dallmeyer?" :)

I'm certainly not suggesting Echkhardt's background etc is an issue, rather that you should at least look at all options.

Ian

[Gerald Figal]

Yes, if I had the time and wherewithal I'd probably cast more widely. As it is, this is all on the side and between the day job and family, so not much time. And so far Eckhardt's been giving me time off the clock (rather than his $250/hour!).
G

[Steven Tribe]

Mostly just keeping this thread alive!


Actually, glass is not just glass. I've been reading a lot about the manufacture of glass since the early 19th century and there are a lot of differences in glass based on materials and method of manufacture. Even within the same factory there can be variations.

Oh yes, there are plenty of examples of unstable glass made in the first decades of the new glass from Jena. But it is the refractive index and optical design which are important.


Obviously no way of knowing what the final sale price was.

I can confirm from own recent private sale, that $2000 is the current price for a good optical condition Dallmeyer 3B. Which means a higher price in competitive bidding.

Having seen a lot of 3B's with doubtful front achromats, there would certainly be a separate market for these as replacements or back-ups.

[goamules]

I'm glad a modern petzval manufacturing is being considered. Many of us, myself included, have thought about doing this for years. Gerald should be commended for putting his money where our mouths have been.

On prices and equivalence, keep in mind the average 12" petzval sells for $700 - $1200 today. How do I know this? Because I've sold many, many of them here on this forum, on ebay, and through my channels since 2007. Wollensaks, Baush and Lombs, Darlots, and many other brands fall into this price range. They are NOT all $2000 lenses, nowhere close. The Dallmeyers are the outlyers. Just as 10 years ago Goerz Dagors were.

Just because a company says "we're going to make a new Dallmeyer!" doesn't mean it is. Dallmeyer was the best known British photographic works in the 19th century. Their workers were very skilled, and their quality was among the best. Were they the best lenses made? I'll tell you from my standpoint they are very good, among the top 5 makers. But they made Petzval Portrait lenses by the tens of thousands, for many generations. They are everywhere. There is a strange disconnect between their availability, and the prices they bring. But they do bring them, at least for now. But you should know, I've seen a lot of other maker's lenses slide in value. Darlot is one example. When I started wetplate Darlot and Dallmeyer were considered equal, as well as several other Early American brands. They all cost the same. Read that again. Over time, several years, the Dallmeyers pulled ahead, and now you can get a good Darlot for about what you could 5 years ago, about $600. All these early makers put fantastic quality into their lenses, which we've always said "could not be duplicated today for under xyz dollars." Now the prices are getting into that price point.

So Dallmeyers are selling way above average. Why? Doesn't matter, they are. The Big Question is when a new manufacturer comes in and makes a new lens, and calls it the "New Dallmeyer 3B" what does that mean to buyers? Does it conform to the Dallmeyer configuration of the rear glass? Sure, that's easy, they all do. A Petzval is a petzval, they're all the same, within the 2 versions. Does it have 50 years of optical experience as a background? Perhaps, the new maker seems very good. Does it have beautiful, heavy brasswork? Does it have extremely tight tolerances? Is the glass formulation, grind, and final optical testing as good as what Dallmeyer did? In other words, will a side by side comparison and shootout with a genuine Dallmeyer yield equal results? Only a finished product will tell.

[Gerald Figal]

Dallmeyer's archives are available (& accessible) here in the UK, they should include the full design specifications of their lenses.

Ian

Ian, would you be able to procure the full design specifications of a Dallmeyer 3B (the 11.5" f/3.5)? I just had an exchange with Eckhardt and he thinks it would be great to do a full-on replica. He asked me to ask you if this is something you might be able to help us with.
Thanks in advance.
Gerald

[Drew Bedo]

I hesitate to contribute here as I am well out of my legue on this thread. I naively ask:

Is it not possible to find the needed components for a lens of this specification from Edmond Optical?

[Scott Davis]

I hesitate to contribute here as I am well out of my legue on this thread. I naively ask:

Is it not possible to find the needed components for a lens of this specification from Edmond Optical?

Drew- in my equally limited understanding, it might well be possible to find the optical elements needed to make a generic Petzval-formula lens, but it might (probably would) not give the same look because the glass elements may not be available in the right glass formulation. For starters.

[Nodda Duma]

I hesitate to contribute here as I am well out of my legue on this thread. I naively ask:

Is it not possible to find the needed components for a lens of this specification from Edmond Optical?

I've found that imaging lens designs rarely benefit from off-the-shelf lenses unless the optical performance requirements are extremely loose. In my career I've only seen two designs benefit, and both were low-cost eyepieces with marginal performance.

In any case, for a production run of any meaningful size (500 or more), a custom lens will be as cheap or cheaper than a catalog lens...and you know you're getting what you want.

Edmunds is expensive too, btw.

-Jason

[Steven Tribe]

IF I had a 3B at the moment I would be delighted to send the complete lens (with separated achromat) for use. But I don't have one at present.

I recently sold a parts (incomplete) lens to the USA (member here) so he might be willing to make the lenses/brass parts that he has available for a serious project. And if I stumble over one in the near future, I would have no problem in providing it for dissection.

Although I have no information about a design change in the late 19th century using Jena glass, it might be a good idea to use early examples - just to make sure.

[Tin Can]

I have the 3B front inner barrel and lens that Steven sold me. It is available if needed. VGC and undamaged in any way . No flange. LMK

[Gerald Figal]

Randy, it might be needed. I was in contact with the designer yesterday and if he can't get a hold of the real mccoy to take measurements or see original design plans, he is going to have to work from sketches and photos and measurements that a 3B-wielding UK friend of mine has.

[Tin Can]

Randy, it might be needed. I was in contact with the designer yesterday and if he can't get a hold of the real mccoy to take measurements or see original design plans, he is going to have to work from sketches and photos and measurements that a 3B-wielding UK friend of mine has.

I don't have the rear lens pair, just the front lens and main tube. It has the gear rack. It's real nice without damage. I have never seen a 3B in hand.

Now we need the rear pair and their mounting. The outer barrel and pinion would be easy.

[goamules]

Gerald, have you or Steve done a patent search? I was surprised how many Petzval alterations have fairly recent patents. Some as recent as 2012. None that I skimmed looked like the classic design, except this one that seems to be trying to get a lock on ANY fast optical design. https://www.google.com/patents/US8169717:

"Large aperture optical systems that are extremely well corrected over a large flat field and over a large spectral range are disclosed. Breathing and aberration variation during focusing are optionally controlled by moving at least two groups of lens elements independently. Aberration correction in general is aided by allowing the working distance to become short relative to the format diagonal. Field curvature is largely corrected by a steeply curved concave surface relatively close to the image plane. This allows the main collective elements to be made of low-index anomalous dispersion materials in order to correct secondary spectrum."

His very long (longest patent I've ever seen) description talks about Petzvals, soft focus features (as above), etc. I can't figure out what he's patenting....

I was researching an unusual Cooke design I have, and stumbled onto his patent (because he references dozens of them). But if it's not an issue, at least a lot of the Petzval patents in more recent years have much more data for your project than anything you will find in the old Sean Dallemeyer archives (I worked with him on them, before they became the "Brent Archives."). Indicies of refraction, glass thickness, and all that a designer will need are listed in some patents. That may help you.

[Dan Fromm]

Sheesh!

http://www.dioptrique.info/base/complements/petzval/petzval01.HTM

http://www.dioptrique.info/base/listes/liste_ordinale.HTM

[scheinfluger_77]

Gerald, have you or Steve done a patent search? I was surprised how many Petzval alterations have fairly recent patents. Some as recent as 2012. None that I skimmed looked like the classic design, except this one that seems to be trying to get a lock on ANY fast optical design. https://www.google.com/patents/US8169717:

"Large aperture optical systems that are extremely well corrected over a large flat field and over a large spectral range are disclosed. Breathing and aberration variation during focusing are optionally controlled by moving at least two groups of lens elements independently. Aberration correction in general is aided by allowing the working distance to become short relative to the format diagonal. Field curvature is largely corrected by a steeply curved concave surface relatively close to the image plane. This allows the main collective elements to be made of low-index anomalous dispersion materials in order to correct secondary spectrum."

His very long (longest patent I've ever seen) description talks about Petzvals, soft focus features (as above), etc. I can't figure out what he's patenting....

I was researching an unusual Cooke design I have, and stumbled onto his patent (because he references dozens of them). But if it's not an issue, at least a lot of the Petzval patents in more recent years have much more data for your project than anything you will find in the old Sean Dallemeyer archives (I worked with him on them, before they became the "Brent Archives."). Indicies of refraction, glass thickness, and all that a designer will need are listed in some patents. That may help you.

Maybe it's a patent troll testing new waters.

[Tin Can]

Sheesh!

http://www.dioptrique.info/base/complements/petzval/petzval01.HTM

http://www.dioptrique.info/base/listes/liste_ordinale.HTM

Quite a compendium!

[goamules]

Update: I read the patent a little closer. It does look like a unique design, far removed from petzvals. I think....!