Blowing up a Kodak 2D to 12x20 [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

Michael Roberts

31-Oct-2014, 04:46

I've had the idea for a while of replacing the back of an 8x10 Kodak 2D with a 12x20 rear frame and spring back. Keep the front standard as is; keep all the 2D movements--front rise and fall, rear left-right swing, rear front and back tilt. New bellows of course.

I plan to install a 40 inch long bellows, allowing much greater options than the 22 inch draws of the Korona or F&S 12x20 banquet cameras. The original 8x10 2D rails allow for 30 inches of draw. I plan to fabricate a new base--16 inches long, 9 wide--so I can detach the rear rail and slide the sections fore and aft to use the maximum 40 inch draw of the new bellows, and still be able to use the rack and pinion focusing of the original hardware and rail. Sort of like a Deardorff and other models with two rails, one that extends to the front and the other to the rear.

I've been looking for a beater 2D, and just found one, so I'm ready to get started with this project. I think this can be done relatively easily, and could open up the possibility of ULF to some folks who aren't interested in spending 7gs or more for a new ULF. I'm looking at more like $600 for this modification, with most of that going for the new bellows.

I've been in touch with Rudy about the bellows. I am hoping to fabricate the rear bellows frame and send both front and rear frames to him in the next few days. I've got a local metal smith to extend the rear tilt rod an extra 11 inches from the current 11.5 inch width to the new 22.5 inch width. I've got 12x20 Deardorff springs from Barry C.

I figure I've got 5-7 lenses on hand that will cover 12x20; two S&S holders; 3 packs of film in the freezer. Just need the camera.

I will post some before photos later today, and work-in-progress photos as this project develops (so to speak).

Jim Noel

31-Oct-2014, 08:45

What an undertaking. I will be interested in following your progress.

Drew Bedo

31-Oct-2014, 09:11

Well most of the parts are often available on e-Bay . . .Front standard, track(s) and such. I would hate to think that you would disassemble a complete camera for this project.

DrTang

31-Oct-2014, 09:53

I bet

to buy a 12x20 would be cheaper

Michael Roberts

3-Nov-2014, 05:43

Some before pics...

The wood is in decent shape, but the finish needs to be stripped and redone. Also, the brass is badly tarnished and semi-corroded in places. Missing a number of screws and one brass knob. No back to the camera (so, unfortunately, no hardware for a new spring back). No leather handle. The brass keeper for the front standard (the little folded piece at the center of the brass strip across the top of the front standard) has been broken off, so there is no way to secure the front rail closed unless this is replaced. The bellows were shot.

The fourth photo shows the hardware for geared rear focus, rear swing, and rear tilt. I plan to keep the first two just as they are. For the rear tilt, I am planning to add a new piece of wood, same thickness and depth, but 22 and 1/2 inches wide. The controls for focus and swing will stay in the same locations, underneath the rear frame, next to the rails.

Michael Roberts

3-Nov-2014, 05:48

These show some of the problems with the wood finish, including tape residue.

The last photo shows the only metal piece that needs modifying--stretching the geared rod that controls rear tilt from around 12 to 23 inches.

Michael Roberts

3-Nov-2014, 05:59

I got out my 12x20 holders yesterday to measure for dimensions for the new 12x20 spring back. Looks like 22.5 x 15.5 in. is the minimum o/s width and height for the rear frame.

Michael Roberts

3-Nov-2014, 06:06

Well most of the parts are often available on e-Bay . . .Front standard, track(s) and such. I would hate to think that you would disassemble a complete camera for this project.

Drew, as you can see, this is hardly a complete camera--no back, no bellows. If you haven't priced 2D parts, you might be surprised. From what I've seen each part--front standard, rear, spring back, base rail, extension rail, sliding tripod block, etc., is going for around $100, so it could easily take $600 or more, plus another $200 for a bellows, just to put together a 2D from parts.

Michael Roberts

3-Nov-2014, 06:11

I bet

to buy a 12x20 would be cheaper

I guess I'll find out. From what I've seen, even for a vintage Korona or F&S, $1,500 would be a good price if the camera is in good shape and the bellows usable, maybe as low as $700 with no bellows. But then you'd have a 12x20 with only 22 inches of draw, not even enough for a normal fl lens, much less longer-than-normal lenses. So, I've considered and dismissed the idea of a Korona or F&S due to their limited length.

I still think I can pull this off for around $600 and have a solid 12x20 with 40 inches of draw. If you know of a cheaper 12x20 to buy, please let me know.

pierre506

3-Nov-2014, 10:02

I knew LOTUS camera made 8x20 converter (rear frame & bellows) onto its 8x10 camera.
However I am not sure if 12x20 converter fits on 8x10.
Hoping it works.

Drew Bedo

3-Nov-2014, 10:28

Drew, as you can see, this is hardly a complete camera--no back, no bellows. If you haven't priced 2D parts, you might be surprised. From what I've seen each part--front standard, rear, spring back, base rail, extension rail, sliding tripod block, etc., is going for around $100, so it could easily take $600 or more, plus another $200 for a bellows, just to put together a 2D from parts.

I am relieved. I was afraid that a camera that only needed bellows and a few screws was going to be dismembered.

Baci in the last decade of the previous century, I picked up a 2D at the old Houston Camera Show for well below $300. I disassembled all the hardware and refinished the wod without stripping it. Left the hardware as-is and put it all back. Yes I have priced 2D parts and I am always surprised to see how much they part-out for. I am looking for a bargai- priced extension rail (an old guy dreaming).

Hope this project works out well for you. Keep us informed.

Michael Roberts

3-Nov-2014, 11:45

Jim Noel

3-Nov-2014, 13:55

Whew! What a relief.The title made me think you were going to put a stick of dynamite inside and explode it.

Michael Roberts

3-Nov-2014, 15:25

No, that would be in the LF Performance Art forum...;)

Jim Fitzgerald

3-Nov-2014, 18:55

Michael, believe me when I tell you that you are right on with the price. The bellows is the major cost item as are holders. I built my first camera my 8x20 this way. I made new walnut pieces but used the metal etc.Came it at around 800.00. I just finished my 14x17 to 20x24 for about 700.00. Someone gave me a process camera bellows so all the parts I made and some I bought from Barry got me to that price. Good luck with the build.

pierre506

4-Nov-2014, 16:27

Pierre,
Keith Canham makes an 8x20 conversion back for his 8x10 cameras as well.

I briefly thought about this option but, in the end, decided I would prefer stand-alone formats. Though I may add an 8x20 reducing back at some point.
Michael,
The 8x20 or 12x20 conversion back you wanna build is not the most headache problem. The cost of the bellows and the film holders( 3, at least) would be very very higher as Jim said.
However, I also concern about your camera's rail. The original rail is short for 8x20 and 12x20.

Jim Fitzgerald

4-Nov-2014, 16:42

A harder thing to do if you are going to use the gears is having enough rack with the proper thread pitch. My experience tells me that they are all a bit different. So if this is a problem just replace it with gears and racks from McMaster Carr. The gears should fit the existing rod, you may have to drill them out. Not hard to do. I think they are pinned which is a good idea. Finding the back extension rail is not easy or inexpensive and then making sure the gears match is a crap shoot if it is not from the same camera. I think I have 36" of extension on my 8x20 I'd have to break it out to check. I find my most used lens on the 820 is my 360 MM Gerogon. Wide angle. Sharp and great coverage and cheap! I use the extension rail with my 21 1/4" Kodak Ektanon and 19" Artar. I will say that I get more people interested in my 8x20's than my other formats. That big rectangular format just draws people in. You don't see that many. Good luck.

Michael Roberts

5-Nov-2014, 07:20

Progress yesterday. Materials ready to be chopped and ripped: five 3" x 24" x 1/4" pieces of cherry for the rear frame and spring back; 3+ pieces of 1/2 x 1/2 x 24 basswood for the rear bellows frame; 1 piece of 5+" x 3/8" mahogany for the base to which the rear frame will be attached.

New cherry 12x20 rear camera frame: o/s dimensions, 23 1/2 x 15 1/2 x 2 3/8 x 1/4.

I was rushing to get the new rear frame and the old 8x10 rear frame over to the machinist who is going to stretch the rear tilt brass rod, so all those bits are with him now. He is also going to remove the rear standard hardware from the old frame. My secondary goal for the old rear frame is to leave it in usable condition for someone who has a need for it, e.g., to replace a broken or missing frame.

Ripping the cherry for the rear frame left me with nice 1/2 x 1/4 pieces to use for the U-shaped film holder surround--a nice bit of serendipity.

Michael Roberts

5-Nov-2014, 07:43

Pierre and Jim, I agree 30 inches of rail/bellows is not enough. Here's my planned solution:

I plan to fabricate a new base--16 inches long, 9 wide--so I can detach the rear rail and slide the sections fore and aft to use the maximum 40 inch draw of the new bellows, and still be able to use the rack and pinion focusing of the original hardware and rail. Sort of like a Deardorff and other models with two rails, one that extends to the front and the other to the rear, with the camera's base section stationary in the middle.

This base--like the rear rail--will be an accessory I will only need to use when I want to use a lens with more than 30" fl, e.g., the 760 APO Nikkor or the 36" Turner Reich lenses I have. I will put this base on the tripod head, screw it down, then set the 2D on top, attach the rear rail, rack the rear of the camera onto the rear rail, extend to the full 30", then unscrew the rear rail and slide it back to the full 40" of bellows, and lock down both front and rear rails to the wooden base. The base will have raised sides and hinged bits that will fold over the 2D rails to lock them down. The result will be a gap between the front and rear rails of 10" to extend the max distance from 30 to 40". Again, just like a Deardorff: front rail extends forward, rear rail extends backward, base stays put in the middle. The differences are my rails will be on the same plane (not stacked one on top of the other), and my base and rear rail are detachable.

The reason for the 16" base is to allow 3" at front and rear to lock down the rails and support them so they are tight. If 3" is not stable enough, I can make the base longer, no big deal.

At that point, I will be able to use the rack and pinion focusing from the rear--the original gears and track, no need to add any more or to add a new third rail. The extension will actually be a gap in the center, filled in by the new base. If I don't need the full 40" of bellows (say, to focus the 760 at less than infinity), I can also step around to the front and move the front standard in 5-10" before doing the fine focusing from the rear.

If this isn't clear, at least it's clear in my head. Hopefully within a few weeks it will all be fabricated and I'll be able to post photos to show how it works. Not to mention, I'll actually be able to try this out and see if what I've dreamed up will actually work easily (well, relatively, given the camera size) in the field.

One other thing: my favorite tripod is an old 1930s Ries with a nearly 6x7" steel head. I think the Ries will be able to hold this camera setup securely.

Also, even though this all may sound very cumbersome, there will be times I will only need to use the front rail, e.g., with a Nikkor 450M or 15" Turner Reich. The 8x10 2D without the rear rail weighs only 10lbs. I don't expect the 12x20 to weigh much more--maybe 12. The rear rail is another 2lbs. The new wooden base may add another 2lbs. I expect this will be one of those cameras I won't use too far from the car but even so there will be a lot of possibilities. If I'm interested in a distant location, I can scout it out ahead of time and decide which accessories and lenses to leave behind to lighten the load.

John Jarosz

5-Nov-2014, 08:04

40" of bellows draw is important; especially if you plan to use it out west for landscape work. The downside of that is the camera begins to perform like a sail. You might think about adding a feature so that 2 tripods (or at least 1 tripod + a monopod) can be used.

A 40" bellows will have some sag when fully extended. You'll need some kind of mid-bellows support so the bellows doesn't vignette the image.

I wish I could justify a 36" long lens. The prices on those have sure skyrocketed in the last 5 years.

Sounds like you've thought this out, good luck with the construction. Hope you don't mind the suggestions.

Jim Fitzgerald

5-Nov-2014, 08:18

Michael, you have it in your head and well thought out. Can't wait to see it! Let me know if you run into any unforeseen problems.

Michael Roberts

5-Nov-2014, 09:32

Dan Dozer

5-Nov-2014, 14:34

Hi Michael,

Having designed and built my own 8 x 20 that was patterned after my 8 x 10 Kodak 2D, I think I can offer the following suggestions/recommendations:

1 - having the rear rail attached to the base the same way the Kodak rail does presents "challenges" when you are using longer lenses and the camera is on a tripod. Even if you come up with a way to tightly screw the rear rail to the base, it will still sag down under the weight when the camera back is extended. I ended up taking an aluminum channel about 12" long the same height as the base/rear frame and slide it over both frames the help support the rear rail.

2 - You don't need a geared track on the rear rail for focusing. I made mine so the rear frame just slides on top of the rear rail (with a couple of screws to secure it in place) and you just ease it in and out with your fingers. Gear tracks are pretty expensive and in my opinion it is wasted money.

3 - You might consider making your own bellows instead of the high cost of buying one. They aren't all that difficult to make.

4 - As John indicated, your bellows will sag. I have a loop on the top of the bellows and I run an aluminum rod from the rear frame, through the loop, and over the top of the front frame. Works pretty easy.

Michael Roberts

5-Nov-2014, 15:41

Wow, Dan, great looking camera! Thanks so much for the suggestions.

So, what movements do you have on yours? Obviously front rise/fall, but what else?

I have played some with making a tapered bellows but haven't found the right materials. I have a quote from Rudy of $375 including shipping. Considering I paid that much 10 years ago for an 8x10 bellows from Custom Bellows, I think this is a good price. Plus I like Rudy's materials better--very light weight and folds very compactly; better than the Turner and Custom bellows I have tried.

I'm not planning to attach the rear rail to the base the same way as the original; I agree that would sag. I'm planning for the rear rail to sit on top of the base. Part of the rail will hang off the end, the other will be clamped tightly to the base. I like your alum channel solution, though; got any pictures?

eddie

6-Nov-2014, 06:08

hhhmmm?

i though you were going to blow it up with explosives.......now THAT gives me an idea.

stay tuned....

Dan Dozer

6-Nov-2014, 21:08

The front only has rise/fall. The back has swing and tilt and can also be switched for vertical or horizontal format.

Here are the aluminum braces. Just two aluminum angles bolted together that fit snugly over the base and front/rear rails. I made a short one for front rail only for normal lenses and a longer one when the rear rail also needs to be attached for longer lenses.

Michael Roberts

7-Nov-2014, 06:15

so the aluminum braces just slide over the rails?

whoa--how do you switch the back to vertical?

Dan Dozer

10-Nov-2014, 16:25

Yes, the braces just slide over the rails.

So - horizontal to vertical - I'll try to explain. Look at the first photo I posted. See the black screw knob on the side of the side post L bracket on the back frame (the top one not the bottom one). If you look real closely at the very top of the L bracket frame, you'll see another hole which is the hole for the knob for the vertical setting. Also, look at the L bracket coming out of the box at the side of the rear base. There is a black knob immediately below the bellows in the top of the middle of the box. That knob loosens the two L brackets and allows them to slide out and in. One L bracket is above the other. You can see the other L bracket on the other side in the opening below the front frame. So - you first unscrew the two knobs on the sides of the L brackets to remove the rear frame of the camera. Then you loosen the knob on the top of the box below the bellows. Then you slide the two L brackets in and tighten the knob on top of the box. Then you rotate the rear of the camera and screw in the knobs on the top of the sides of the L brackets to tighten the camera rear in place and then you are in the Vertical position.

Sounds confusing but it is real simple to adjust.

Michael Roberts

8-Dec-2014, 09:53

I was out of town for most of a week to attend the funeral for my wife's grandmother, Juanita Shepard, a dear lady who lived to the age of 95. Time to get caught up with this project now, which seems to be coming together really well except for the parts I need to do....

Before leaving town, I managed to get the metal parts to my local metalsmith, send off an order to Sandy King for two more 12x20 holders, and fabricate a rear bellows frame to send to Rudy in HK along with the original 8x10 2D front bellows frame. These good gentlemen all did their work apace.....

Michael Roberts

8-Dec-2014, 09:58

My local metalsmith stretched the rear tilt rod from around 12 to 22.5 inches and made a new "keeper" tab for the front rail. He ground off the inside of the rivet holding the rear brass struts to the wooden rear frame, drilled and tapped the insides of the rivets, then fitted a machine screw. This way, I can reuse the rivets and keep the original clean look.

Michael Roberts

8-Dec-2014, 10:00

Two new cherry 12x20 filmholders from Sandy King! Aren't they beautiful?

Michael Roberts

8-Dec-2014, 10:04

I'm still working on fabricating the new 12x20 spring back...had to wait until the holders arrived to make sure I made the back to fit the new holders.

Here is an inside view of the rear frame and spring back--nothing has been stained or painted yet.

Second pic is the inside of the spring back showing the light trap glued in place....

Michael Roberts

8-Dec-2014, 10:06

Meanwhile....Rudy has finished the bellows and it is on its way to me....

Michael Roberts

8-Dec-2014, 10:14

So, Yikes (!), I've still got to strip and refinish the old 8x10 2D wooden parts and fabricate, stain, paint and finish the new 12x20 back....

At least, I thought that was all. I took the 8x10 2D to a custom metal plating company weeks ago to get an estimate on cleaning and recoating all the brass. Guy looks the camera over, cocks his head, and tells me....$100. Great! I thought.

Two-three weeks later, I completely disassemble the camera and take four zip-lock bags of brass parts back to the plater. An hour later he has counted and inventoried each part and 1/4" screw. He then takes out his calculator and adds it all up--$425!

We then proceed to have a discussion of different degrees of cleaning and polishing, blasting and buffing....

Darryl was nice enough to demonstrate how the different degrees of work would look:

These three pics show how the brass looks after blasting, blasting and buffing, and all of the above plus polishing to a mirror finish...

Tin Can

8-Dec-2014, 10:25

Michael Roberts

8-Dec-2014, 10:32

Also--and this may be of interest to other 2D owners--according to Darryl, the brass appears originally to have been given a matte finish, possibly to reduce glare. What I have always heard was pitting of the brass due to exposure actually seems to be the original, matte finish.

These are two close-ups of the blasted vs. blasted and buffed sides....

Michael Roberts

8-Dec-2014, 10:41

Love is never cheap. I hope you have made the right decision...

lol! truer words....

Michael Roberts

8-Dec-2014, 11:36

Darryl and I talked, and he suggested he could just blast everything clean for $80, or blast and buff, but not polish to a mirror finish for $165...or I could just buy a bench grinder for $40 and do it myself.

Well, this is the DIY forum, so....

I actually found this bench grinder for $29.99 on a Black Friday special. With attachments, I'm in for under $65, and I have this to work on other restoration projects as well. I'm telling you, it's like christmas every other week with this project....

Michael Roberts

8-Dec-2014, 11:41

As for the original 2D mahogany and cherry, this pic shows how nice the original finish still looks on the few places that have been covered up for the last 75 years. This spot is underneath the front rise/fall knob.

So far, I have tried Howard's Restore a Finish (Mahogany). It cleaned somewhat, but the old shellac is still cloudy. Next, I will try denatured alcohol to dissolve the old shellac.

John Jarosz

8-Dec-2014, 12:37

There are a bazillion ways to refinish wood. Everyone has their favorite. That said, I use Formby's Furniture Re-finisher. It's solvent based so it doesn't raise the grain of the wood like a water based stripper will. Downside is that you have to use it outdoors or someplace that is vented to the outdoors because it's solvent based. Only very light sanding is needed after stripping. For a finish I use a Minwax product they call tung oil. It's not real tung oil like die hard woodworkers use, but it does an acceptable job. You wipe it on with a rag. Keep adding coats until you like the finish. The finish seeps into the wood, it doesn't sit on top of it like so many urethanes do.

All my opinion. Now you get to hear everyone else's favorite.;)

I agree about the brass parts being matte originally. All the 2D's I've seen look the same.

Michael Roberts

10-Dec-2014, 02:13

John, you are right--there are many ways to do this and people have their favorites. Here are Bob Vila's: http://www.bobvila.com/articles/how-to-remove-varnish/#.VIcBzDHF-So

I tried the denatured alcohol, and it worked fairly well--at least it got rid of most of the cloudiness of the old shellac, though it did not fully remove it. This seemed to work best on the parts that have been exposed for the past 75 years; the spots that have been covered up seem to retain their finish.

Unfortunately, I have three spots with cellophane tape stuck on--50 years old? older? I used lighter fluid on these spots and a nylon scraper. Some success, but they need sanding I think.

I previously tried Minwax Antique Furniture Refinisher (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?54173-Restoring-a-Century-Universal-8x10&p=517555&viewfull=1#post517555) on my Century Universal, but I still ended up doing a lot of sanding (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?54173-Restoring-a-Century-Universal-8x10&p=518617&viewfull=1#post518617).

I think I'm at the point with this camera--without resorting to chemical strippers--that I'm ready to try some light sanding. I will post some before/after pics to show progress....

Of course, I'm still keeping in mind that I'm going to have a brand new cherry rear frame and spring back to try to stain to match the original 2D finish of the front standard and base rails....are we having fun yet? You bet.

The good news (oddly) is that the bellows have been delayed. Seems the 12x20 bellows box (15x22 rear frame) was too big for China Post, so Rudy is having to ship first to HK, then to me.

I'm hoping to get out of town for a road trip next week to southern Utah, Arizona, and NM, and would love to take this camera with me. I thought the bellows would get here and I would still be futzing with the wood and brass, but now it might be the bellows arrival that holds me up. We'll see.

Got to get some sleep, it's 2:30AM here....

SMBooth

10-Dec-2014, 03:39

Michael your pm box is full. Cannot reply to you.

John Jarosz

10-Dec-2014, 06:27

I'm hoping to get out of town for a road trip next week to southern Utah, Arizona, and NM, and would love to take this camera with me. I thought the bellows would get here and I would still be futzing with the wood and brass, but now it might be the bellows arrival that holds me up. We'll see..

I hope you try the camera out with film (and develop it :D) before you take that trip. Just to make sure everything is light tight. DAMHIKT

Michael Roberts

10-Dec-2014, 06:50

Michael your pm box is full. Cannot reply to you.

Shane, I just cleared it out (mostly); please try again.

Michael Roberts

11-Dec-2014, 11:39

Here is my attempt to show what the original wood looks like after using denatured alcohol to dissolve and strip the old shellac but before doing light sanding. As I said, it's an improvement overall, but there are still spots that look clean but with the original shellac still in place and there are other spots that looked stripped down to the bare (stained) wood, and still other places that just look "spotty."

That's some tape residue in the first two pics....

At the top of the second pic, you can see the original finish that was under the lens board retainer bracket.

I'm hoping light sanding will even all this out.

Meanwhile, I need to decide what to use to refinish. One of the advantages of shellac and lacquer is that new coats dissolve into earlier coats. But with this 1941 shellac, will modern shellac do the same? or do I need to remove every little bit of it?

At this point, I'm trying to resist chemical strippers if at all possible.

advice?

Jim Galli

11-Dec-2014, 13:57

Whew! What a relief.The title made me think you were going to put a stick of dynamite inside and explode it.

Every time I read this title I can just picture one of Eddies video's with a Kodak 2D getting blown to bits with plastic explosives.

Michael Cienfuegos

11-Dec-2014, 14:35

Every time I read this title I can just picture one of Eddies video's with a Kodak 2D getting blown to bits with plastic explosives.

Eddie just has way too much fun. I can just see him with an M2 .50 cal machine gun reducing one to kindling.

m

Tim Meisburger

11-Dec-2014, 17:12

Yes, modern shellac should dissolve old shellac, as long as they are both shellac. I would just give it a try in an inconspicuous place and see what you get, but it should work fine.

Michael Roberts

11-Dec-2014, 17:34

Thanks Tim. I was just reading up on shellac, and realizing it is still available in the same form as in the 1940s.

Michael Roberts

17-Dec-2014, 14:13

Boy, the day job is really interfering with making progress on this project.

Nevertheless...

First pic shows clamping the backstop and runners down on the 12x20 spring back.

Second and third show details of the finish on the old 2D after applying denatured alcohol and doing some light sanding. There are bits of the old shellac still visible (as well as how cracked it is), but I'm not fussed about that since adding a new finish should dissolve into the old finish.

My goal with sanding is simply to even out the old finish. I've still got three places where tape residue is present; working on trying to get every last bit off before refinishing without damaging the wood. I've decided there should be a special place in hell for people who stick tape on classic wood cameras and leave it there to melt into the finish....

Last is the liquid shellac I found. I had either forgotten or never new you could buy this in liquid form (versus shellac flakes to mix your own). I'm looking forward to applying it and seeing how well it works with the old finish.

Michael Roberts

17-Dec-2014, 14:16

Meanwhile, work on the new spring back is progressing. I've almost got all of the runners and surround glued into place (pic 1). Pic 3 shows the gg frame set in place, and corner details (pics 2 and 4).

Michael Roberts

22-Dec-2014, 08:25

I've been down and out with the flu the past few days, so not much progress. I did find this article on reamalgamating old finishes--shellac, lacquer, varnish: http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/home-diy/furniture-restoration/how-to-restore-wooden-furniture-finish1.htm

I cannot find information on exactly what type finish was used on the 2D--shellac, lacquer, varnish, or a combo (shellac/lacquer). According to Bob Vila, shellac was the most common finish on wood furniture in the U.S. in the early 1940s when this camera was made, but I don't know if that's what Kodak used or not. If anyone knows, please chime in. Otherwise, I will continue to experiment with denatured alcohol, lacquer thinner, mineral spirits, etc., and see what seems to work best.

The finish does seem to have the cloudy "blushing" described in the above article as typical of shellac finishes. Definitely has the "aligatoring," too.

After seeing several beautifully restored 2Ds (Nana's, Laurent's, etc. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?36782-Show-off-your-Large-Format-camera!&p=447832&viewfull=1#post447832 ), I'd like to take whatever time is required to get the finish right on this.

Bellows are still on their way; apparently the box was too big to get through regular China post so it had to be rerouted back to Rudy in HK.

Hopefully off tomorrow to Saguaro NP and White Sands! Both of which will be new to me. So, this project will be resting while I am out exploring.

Need to make time today to review the Brett Weston archive....

snay1345

22-Dec-2014, 17:52

I am restoring my 8x10 2d also and I just went ahead and used stripper. There was so much nasty stuff that came off it I couldn't have seen myself keeping up with trying other ways to get rid of all the crap on it. From what I can gather mine was made in the 20's and it looks like somebody had done some work on it somewhere along its lifetime. After stripping it cleaning and sanding I used a minwax conditioner then a cherry stain and then tung oil as the protectant. I tried to apply poly but this is my first real woodworking expedition and I hated the way it looked.

I don't know what the original protectant was but I would just go ahead and strip it off. It will look much nicer when done, I was amazed at how my pieces are looking after taking the nasty stuff off it.

http://i.imgur.com/ijoKPJHl.png

http://i.imgur.com/71uDJ6Bl.png

Michael Roberts

22-Dec-2014, 21:26

Hey, that looks great. I really like how the wood grain shows through the stain. Thanks for sharing!

The brass looks very nice, too.

Good job!

SMBooth

22-Dec-2014, 21:30

how you finish the brass Snay1345. Did you apply some coating or ?

snay1345

22-Dec-2014, 23:54

I have followed to the T what this guy did minus putting polyurethane and the second color of stain on.

I treated the brass just like how he shows it here.

I soaked the brass in ammonia and then sprinkled some bar keepers friend on all the wet pieces and then rubbed them out, after that I used brasso and got the finish that you see. I tried to polish a piece but the way the stuff was made it didn't do anything. I didn't coat it with anything as well.

https://camerarestore.wordpress.com/

snay1345

22-Dec-2014, 23:55

Also I substituted brasso for the neverdull as I couldn't find any.

David A. Goldfarb

23-Dec-2014, 01:05

You can sometimes find Nevrdull where auto cleaning supplies are sold, though I've usually gotten it from a hardware store. It's apparently good for hubcaps.

Michael Roberts

11-Jan-2015, 01:05

Back from journeys SW...

Here are the four brass rear corner brackets with varying methods of cleaning:

From left to right:
1. soaking in salt and vinegar (mild acid solution)--helped a little
2. above plus Howard's Copper and Brass polish, followed by Flitz--helped a little more
3. #1 plus Nevr-Dull--nada
4. #1 plus Brasso--finally!

Second pic just shows #2 and #4 above.

I think the Howard's, Flitz, and Nevr-Dull products are excellent, depending on the type and condition of material you are working with, but Brasso is the clear winner here.

I also found a 1938 Kodak catalog description of the 2D that says it originally came with a "dull brass" finish; the 1923 catalog says the brass has a "sand blast" finish; the 1909 says the brass was "heavily lacquered." I was checking to see if the descriptions specified whether the brass was lacquered or not; there are spots on my 1941 model that look like they have some lacquer and are resisting cleaning.

I picked up some lacquer thinner to try on these stubborn spots....

Michael Roberts

11-Jan-2015, 01:09

Got the new bellows from Rudy.

I couldn't be more pleased.

Have had troubles communicating front and rear opening sizes on prior orders, so this time I sent him the frames to mount the bellows. Worked great.

2lbs, 5oz for this 12x20, 40" bellows mounted on frames. Compresses to 1.5" including the 1/2" rear frame. This is 1lb more than the original 30" 8x10 bellows with just the rear frame; and the original Kodak 8x10 bellows is 3" thick.

Michael Roberts

27-Jan-2015, 14:58

Still working away on cleaning and polishing the brass.

I tried the full strength ammonia soak and it worked well, followed by Brasso.

But to really finish it off, after the ammonia bath, I got out the sandpaper--400 followed by 800.

I wouldn't normally sand metal, but since the original brass was sand-blasted, this seems to work best.

Haven't gotten around to trying the lacquer thinner yet, but I have several parts--especially knurled knobs that won't succumb to sandpaper--remaining to be cleaned and polished.

Michael Roberts

22-Feb-2015, 15:17

I've started working on stripping the finish off the old wooden parts.

I used denatured alcohol to test whether the finish was shellac or a combo of shellac and lacquer. The denatured alcohol did nothing but evaporate after a few seconds--did not dissolve or even soften the finish as far as I could tell.

I then tried lacquer thinner and voila--success. Brush on the lacquer thinner and wipe the old finish off with a rough cloth or steel wool. Keep at it until all the old lacquer comes off.

So, at least for my 1941 Kodak 2D, Kodak 2Ds are finished with lacquer which can be removed with plain ol' lacquer thinner instead of the harsher chemical paint strippers.

Michael Roberts

22-Feb-2015, 19:11

Here are some photos showing the contrast between the rear rail after cleaning with mineral spirits but before applying lacquer thinner and the front rail after brushing on the lacquer thinner and wiping off the old lacquer.

There are still some traces of the original finish here and there, but I want to do some sanding to bring out the wood grain. Getting most of the old lacquer off will mean I won't be clogging up sand paper with lacquer and can get down to the wood quicker.

You can see how chipped the old lacquer is (in spots) on the back rail. I can't tell yet if the gouges and streaks are all the way through the finish. Probably, in places.

Michael Roberts

31-Mar-2021, 16:00

Cue music...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfe8tCcHnKY

Yes, after six long years, I am getting back to this project!

Greg

31-Mar-2021, 16:24

At one time I had and used an 8x10 Burke &. James Commercial view. I was interested in converting it into an 11x14. After planning everything out and adding up all the expenses, I found an 11x14 Burke & James FS for less than the conversion expenses. After using the 11x14 for a few years, I seriously considered converting it to a 12x20. FYI the Burke & James Commercial view was also available as an 8x20. I knew of another photographer who had an 8x20 and was selling it at the time. Thought it would be a better candidate for conversion to 12x20. I was wrong once I took a look at his 8x20. In the end just settled on using the 11x14 as it was. Another friend of mine had acquired a Sinar P that was converted to a 12x20. The conversion was cosmetically very professionally done (he told me that the conversion was a major expense). The camera's operation was another thing... the back's former P's asymmetric tilts and swings were no longer there. He ended up with a very mongrel 12x20 that was a challenge to use in the field. All in all it turned me off to converting a camera to a larger format.

Michael Roberts

31-Mar-2021, 16:35

Good thing I'm not converting a Sinar!

But, hey, I expect any 12x20 is going to be a challenge to use in the field!

Good to hear your experiences, but I am committed. (or should be?)

ic-racer

31-Mar-2021, 16:52

In six years you could have built an enlarger ;);)

Michael Roberts

31-Mar-2021, 17:03

Yes, no doubt!

Michael Roberts

31-Mar-2021, 17:12

All wood and brass parts have been refinished.

Just need to assemble!

Rear frame, spring back, ground glass frame (sans gg), and bellows.

Detail of stained cherry rear frame.

So much hardware!

Remainder of wood parts.

Michael Roberts

31-Mar-2021, 17:16

I put all the parts on the scale yesterday and the total came to 12lb 4oz. not including the back rail. It will be a good test to see if the assembled camera comes out to that. I will be very happy if it does!

Detail of base finish.

Drew Bedo

1-Apr-2021, 05:01

Drew, as you can see, this is hardly a complete camera--no back, no bellows. If you haven't priced 2D parts, you might be surprised. From what I've seen each part--front standard, rear, spring back, base rail, extension rail, sliding tripod block, etc., is going for around $100, so it could easily take $600 or more, plus another $200 for a bellows, just to put together a 2D from parts.

Having followed this along, I am less disturbed by how your project is moving on.

I do have an aversion to irrevocably altering these older cameras. Not to criticize your effort in this; My orientation is ore towards refurbishing an item back to its original configuration. I view myself more as a cursor or steward of a usable artifact rather than an outright owner of an appliance. While using it to creat memorable images, I feel that I am also holding my 2D for a future photographer, perhaps someone not yet born, who will, I hope, also use and hold it for someone else.

Best wishes in this project. I look forward to seeing it finished.

Thom Bennett

1-Apr-2021, 07:09

Cool project! Can't wait to see the final result. Good luck!

Tin Can

1-Apr-2021, 07:16

We all know it will be a wonderful box when done!

What camera will you use?

I recently learned a 'lens' was called a camera for centuries!

A 'camera' was a box in the early days...

English was my first language, hence my difficulty

Michael Roberts

1-Apr-2021, 07:20

Thanks Thom! I appreciate the encouragement.

I plan to start reassembling this afternoon. I will post progress.

Drew, man, I hear you. I have restored many vintage cameras so they can be put back into use, and I love using them myself. I view this project as a "soft" modification. The only part I have altered from the original parts I purchased is the geared rod that controls rear tilt. I found a metalsmith who stretched it for me so it will span the width of the new rear frame I constructed. New bellows of course, but the old one was shot and needed replacing anyway. All the original wood and brass I have cleaned and refinished and will be put back into use on this camera.

I checked again this morning for records of sales of the Korona Panoramic 12x20, and could not find any in the last 10 years. The 7x17 and 8x20 models (as well as the 12x20 Korona and Kodak Banquet Cameras) were apparently much more popular. Even then, the Korona 12x20 Pan only has a max bellows length of under 24" (strangely, compared to the 33+ for the 8x20). So in terms of vintage 12x20s with 30" or more bellows length, there aren't many options. Much less for a lighter-than-normal weight.

On another note, I just bought 200 sheets of Agfa green x-ray film in 10x12 size and four 10x12 film hangers. My plan is to tape two sheets of 10x12 together for a single 12x20 at $1 a sheet and tank process with hangers to deal with the soft emulsion issue. Should be fun!

Michael Roberts

1-Apr-2021, 07:28

Randy,
The Gundlach Manufacturing catalog No. 32 (1910-20s) on Camera Eccentric recommends the Turner Reich Series II Triple Convertible No. 6, 11x14 lens for the 8x20 and 12x20 Panoramic Cameras.

Fortunately, I have one and will use it.

This is the 15-24-36" combination. The 15" is a double anastigmat with about 70 degrees coverage. The 24 and 36" lenses have narrower coverage but at the longer focal lengths will cover the 23" diagonal for the 12x20 format.

Michael Roberts

1-Apr-2021, 19:16

Progress today--first steps in reassembly!

Replaced the hardware on the base rail, front rail, and back rail.

Replaced most of the hardware on the front standard, but I'm still missing a knob (front left that locks the front standard), and I discovered I'm missing the "brake" on the front rise/fall gear. I think I can fabricate a replacement for the front rise gear brake, but I may have to contract out the knob unless anybody out there has a spare?

If so, please let me know. Come to think of it, I have a box of parts I should check...

In any event, I need to file off the peening on the end of the front geared threaded rod to be able to screw on a replacement thumb nut/knob.

I also discovered I hadn't cleaned the screw heads for the dozens and dozens of screws, so I set up the table grinder with the wire wheel and cleaned up what felt like four dozen screws, then dashed out to the hardware store for some replacements for missing screws. I'll probably end up doing this a few times.

Tried for a few easy wins today to get started. The rear standard, double tilt assembly seems pretty daunting at this point. It’s been a looong time since I disassembled it.

Fortunately, I still have my intact 1948 2D 8x10 on hand for reference!

Thanks,
Michael

Michael Roberts

2-Apr-2021, 08:12

Hooray--found a replacement thumb nut/knob.

Wrong color, but it may be nickel-plated brass, and maybe I can remove the plating. In any case, the front standard will now be functional!

Michael Roberts

3-Apr-2021, 08:45

Making progress on rear swing and standard assembly!

Need to cut a new leather handle today, and clean up a bunch more screws, and make another trip to the hardware store.

Feels good to be making progress on this project after such a long delay!

200 sheets of 10x12 Agfa Xray film arrived yesterday. More motivation to assemble this camera!

Tin Can

3-Apr-2021, 09:41

I like the spring loaded extension stop, that is retracted when the extension is removed

It's the details!

Michael Roberts

4-Apr-2021, 18:09

More progress!

Got the leather strap cut and attached to the rear frame.

Rear swing assembly reassembled with the new 22 1/2 inch rear standard base.

Rear standard brass brackets attached to rear frame.

Starting to look like a camera!

Drew Bedo

6-Apr-2021, 06:04

Can't wait to see it with bellows and a lens!

Michael Roberts

6-Apr-2021, 15:32

Thanks Drew!

I installed the brass corner brackets this morning. Looking ahead to installing the bellows, I decided to add a light trap into the rear frame for the rear bellows frame and also to beef up the light trap on the inside of the spring back from 1/8 to 1/4 depth. Picked up the craft wood to do that today, so I will chop and glue those up over the next day or two.

Also picked up some adhesive backed felt to line the spring back channel where the film holders go. Helps prevent light leaks.

It feels like a step backward to be chopping and gluing in more wood, but I'm sure it will pay off down the road.

Michael Roberts

15-Apr-2021, 08:38

Update:

I got the bellows in, and they look great!

Unfortunately, I had to chisel out the rear bellows frame light trap I put in because the fabric kept catching on it at the top and bottom. Instead, I lined the rear inside joint with gaffer's tape and added a layer of adhesive felt to take up some of the gap to the 1/4 inch light trap on the inside of the spring back.

I lose 2" of front rise going from the midpoint of the 8x10 standard (4") to the midpoint of the new 12" high bellows (6"). The 2D originally has 3 1/4 rise but only 1 1/8" of fall. So, I have 1 1/4" rise and 3 3/8" of fall. I don't think this will be a problem for me b/c I do a lot of work on canyon rims and use front fall more than rise. However, I have started making a front tilting lens board adapter and I can use that along with tilting the camera up and using rear forward tilt to get all the front rise my lens will allow. I considered adding an inch or so to the bottom of the front standard to raise it up, but I'm setting that possibility aside for now. I can come back to that idea after working with the camera if needed.

Speaking of rear tilt, the rear tilt gears and teeth do not match up perfectly. I reversed the rear standard brackets to avoid interfering with the rear bellows frame and the underside of the standard bracket is where the teeth are located. I have unlimited rear forward tilt (good for supplementing front rise as discussed above) but very limited rear backward tilt. If this becomes a problem in practice, I may replace the original rivets that attach the rear standard brackets to the rear camera frame with knobs to control rear tilt and just pull the geared rod that is supposed to control the original hardware.

So, basically, I've been tinkering, working on adjustments, and problem-solving to fix some detailed issues that didn't present themselves earlier (i.e., I wasn't smart enough or familiar enough with the intricate details of the 2D design and engineering to think of before now).

The camera is very lightweight (for a 12x20). Right now, before adding the acrylic GG and frame and GG hardware, it comes in just under 11 and 1/2 pounds (and w/o the rear rail) and I've got about 18" of bellows extension with just the base and front rails, so plenty of extension for my 15" Turner Reich double anastigmat.

I've also been working on an 8x20 reducing back.

More to do, got to run....

Enjoy. Comments are welcome.

Thanks,
Michael

Michael Roberts

15-Apr-2021, 08:40

a few more...

Tin Can

15-Apr-2021, 08:49

Wonderfull!

We await the images

Drew Bedo

16-Apr-2021, 07:24

I love thqat you re-used and repurposed the 2D hardware.

Michael Roberts

16-Apr-2021, 17:01

Yes, my idea all along was simply to modify a 2D by substituting a bigger bellows and rear frame/back and keep everything else pretty much the same.

Drew Bedo

18-Apr-2021, 05:26

Yes, my idea all along was simply to modify a 2D by substituting a bigger bellows and rear frame/back and keep everything else pretty much the same.

150 years from now, this camera may drive some collector crazy trying to figure out what it really is!

Michael Roberts

21-Apr-2021, 17:13

Just finished gluing the four layers of the 8x20 reducing back.

Testing for fit on the camera.

The white, unpainted "runners" inside the film holder channel will be painted flat black, then receive a coat of contact cement, and then a layer of adhesive felt. I will clear coat the mahogany.

Cut, filed, tempered, and drilled the brass springs over the last couple of days. I will shape the ends and install on the 12x20 back tomorrow.

Next up: the GG frame for the 8x20.

Cheers!
Michael

Tin Can

21-Apr-2021, 19:19

Michael

What are using for adhesive felt

I need some more, very handy to have on hand

Michael Roberts

21-Apr-2021, 19:29

9x12 inch stiffened felt squares from Joann’s Fabric Store.

Kunin Stick’rz is the latest brand name I’ve seen at Joann’s. Michael’s has a similar product under the Creatology brand name.

Tin Can

22-Apr-2021, 04:46

Thanks, I have found Joann's to be a very good and local source for many LF needs

McMaster has some interesting felt too

9x12 inch stiffened felt squares from Joann’s Fabric Store.

Kunin Stick’rz is the latest brand name I’ve seen at Joann’s. Michael’s has a similar product under the Creatology brand name.

Michael Roberts

24-Apr-2021, 04:51

Thanks for the tip on McMaster. I’ll check it out.

Drew Bedo

27-Apr-2021, 06:21

a few more...

Great! Now just how will you carry it around . . .or store it?

Michael Roberts

27-Apr-2021, 18:48

I’m still exploring options. I have a quilted bag a fabric artist friend made for me. The camera fits nicely inside, there is an external pocket for film holders, and I just bought a large nylon duffle that protects the art quilted bag. This will be fine for working near my vehicle.

The duffel also has a shoulder strap. I checked the weight today and the camera (sans lens) in the quilted bag and duffle is only 14 pounds. Easy enough to carry with the shoulder strap for short distances.

Here is a link to the duffel:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R48P3MW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I also bought this pocket waterproof blanket to put on the ground to organize gear for unloading/loading:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LON78FQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I liked the duffle so much I bought the smaller 50L size to carry film holders.

Michael Roberts

2-May-2021, 10:26

Six years and six months from starting this thread....

This was my first time getting the camera out of the house, lens and GG on, and getting to see what the world looks like on 12x20 and 8x20. Just a quick 5 min walk from my back door, carrying the Ries A100 pod with the A200 steel head on one shoulder, the camera slung around to my back in the ripstop duffle, and a case with the 8x20 reducing back in my other hand.

The camera works fine, and I think I will enjoy using it very much. Having started out in 8x10 with a Kodak 2D, using this camera feels like coming home. However, my 11x14 BTZS Focus Hood is no match for this camera. I will be happy when my 12x20 BTZS hood arrives!

The Turner Reich Series II No. 6 lens seems to cover 12x20 well, and stopped down to f22 or so, everything looked good, or at least as well as I could tell with half a focus hood.

Didn't have too much time, as a storm was moving in. Within 30 minutes, the ground was completely white, covered in hail.

Michael Roberts

2-May-2021, 10:27

few more...

Tin Can

2-May-2021, 10:55

Great!

Slow work is best!

I have restored motorcycles by doing something on it EVERY DAY for 15 minutes

Amazing, but it works

William Whitaker

2-May-2021, 12:20

Your last image looks more like 8x20. Is that what it is?

Michael Roberts

2-May-2021, 13:12

Yes, the last image shows the 8x20 reducing back I made as an accessory.

SLVRGLTN

7-Jun-2021, 05:17

In all what was the total cost for everything??? It doesn’t matter if it took 6 years to do it or not just the fact that it’s an amazing beautiful camera! Plus you can do dual formats!

Great Job!

Michael Roberts

9-Jun-2021, 17:36

Thanks!

About $475, including $375 for the bellows. I bought the 8x10 2D with a lens and 5x7 back, and recouped the price by selling the lens and back, so the camera, sans bellows, rear frame and spring back was essentially free. Craft wood, brass, and acrylic for the two spring backs was around $100.

Of course, probably about 50-100 hours of labor as well. I totally understand why pro camera makers charge $5,000 or more.

padre yak

9-Jul-2021, 15:23

Michael, you invited comments, so here's mine: "Wow!"
A work of art with which to make works of art.

Greg

9-Jul-2021, 16:20

Slow work is best!

I have restored motorcycles by doing something on it EVERY DAY for 15 minutes

Amazing, but it works

Once drove (well actually pushed) my 1976 MG Midget into the basement after removing the sliding glass doors. About a half inch clearance on either side. Then religiously spent about an hour or so each day after dinner working on the car. Even if I got home late after a long day, still went down into the basement to work on the Midget for 15 minutes or so. After sanding smooth and then filling in the many, many surface rust spots, with an air brush was able to restore the original paint to look almost like new. Did the same with the engine bay. Basement was heated with a wood stove and many New England's winter's weekend day spent it down in that basement. Took me almost 3 years till I was able to push it outside again. Didn't want to start it in the basement for safety reasons. It took patience, patience, and more patience.