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koh303
23-Oct-2014, 11:14
Since no one posted this and it is clearly an LF project:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1436129614/the-intrepid-4x5-camera-an-affordable-large-format

I have nothing to do with the above project - but i am a supporter, and think its a SUPER amazing idea, and hope the execution is better then the long delayed travelwide camera.
For the price - how can you argue? Very promising.

They are already funded and beyond the original expectation, and i suspect that part of the problem with the travelwide, is that perhaps they did not expect such a large response to their project, so much so that it became larger then they can handle at this level, and i hope this is not the case with this project.

Light Guru
23-Oct-2014, 11:42
I think I've seen a few posts about it already.

Personally it looks too bulky.

mdarnton
23-Oct-2014, 11:44
As I said elsewhere: Playschool meets Ikea, for twice the price of a used Cambo, and no class at all. Did I miss anything?

koh303
23-Oct-2014, 12:20
As I said elsewhere: Playschool meets Ikea, for twice the price of a used Cambo, and no class at all. Did I miss anything?

Yes - you missed some young people who were born post the digital revolution, who are in the business of designing and manufacturing a BRAND NEW Large format camera, that does not cost as much as a compact car, in fact is costs next to nothing.

Too bulky? Too heavy? Any other complaints? Buy a cambo, those cost the same and for sure are less bulky, especially the ultra light Cambo SC-X. And when you need parts for a Cambo - be sure to call the readily available calumet store on Cherry St. in chicago IL. Oh wait, they are out of business? No worries - call the European company - to find out how much it costs to ship a screw overseas, and how much a 10$ wire transfer costs.

Everyone on this forum should be exhilarated that someone is even bothering to make a large format camera.

mdarnton
23-Oct-2014, 12:45
Heck--I can buy a whole Cambo as a parts camera and still have lots of cash. No, forget about all the side issues of who and why, a bad idea is still a bad idea and will stay one long after the thrill is gone. If "young people" want my respect, they need to do better, like the Travelwide idea. Everyone does NOT get an award just for trying.

koh303
23-Oct-2014, 17:33
If "young people" want my respect, they need to do better, like the Travelwide idea. Everyone does NOT get an award just for trying.
Travelwide is a year+ late, and no time frame in sight, their camera is good for only one thing, where as this one is good everything else except for that one thing.

Why would young people want your respect? If anything its probably the other way around, yo want them to respect you.

I guess i must have lost that catalog with the folding field cambo camera.

Bob Mann
23-Oct-2014, 17:51
Heck--I can buy a whole Cambo as a parts camera and still have lots of cash. No, forget about all the side issues of who and why, a bad idea is still a bad idea and will stay one long after the thrill is gone. If "young people" want my respect, they need to do better, like the Travelwide idea. Everyone does NOT get an award just for trying.

Based of the speed with which they made their goal, the market place must see value in what they are offering - less than 2 kg, takes different lenses, and enough movements for landscapes.

koh303
23-Oct-2014, 18:19
Based of the speed with which they made their goal, the market place must see value in what they are offering - less than 2 kg, takes different lenses, and enough movements for landscapes.

Took the word out of my mouth. I was going to say that the close to 300 people who invested more then 50K$ in this venture must think its at least a half good idea.
If i could imagine a day where there would be 300 new PAYING customers for an LF venture, i would be a happy man.

Gadfly_1971
23-Oct-2014, 20:57
As I said elsewhere: Playschool meets Ikea, for twice the price of a used Cambo, and no class at all. Did I miss anything?

I don't understand this reflexive need to poop in the punch bowl. I think it's important that we as photographers do what we can to support projects like this. Don't want one? Don't buy one.

Used gear only goes so far and prices are starting to creep up on lightweight gear. Low prices for lightweight LF cameras are rare anymore. It's rare to find a good used field camera for less than $650. Sure you could get a Cambo monorail for around $150 or so (minus lensboard), but that's an awful lot of bulk to trek around with. It's fine if everything is within 10 yards of the car, but it's a major PITA to haul around. I have one and it's a great camera... for studio work. For field work? Ever try to fit a Cambo in a backpack without 20 minutes of dis-assembly followed by another 10 minutes putting it back together when you're ready to shoot? Yeah, it pretty much sucks.

etorix
24-Oct-2014, 01:25
um, yeah

with American photographer Ansell Adams becoming a pioneer in landscape photography.

they can't spell Ansel Adams, not a great start in my book

analoguey
24-Oct-2014, 04:21
It's awesome to have more analogue photography products.
It is great that there's a viable market for it.

But one can also critique a product - as long as it doesnt fall into the BTDT and 'everything old is gold, everything new sucks' type moaning.

I thought there were a few threads on this already- I heard about it here first.

If I was new to LF and considering LF, I would definitely be a supporter - with some questions on the plywood and bungee usage. Although bungees are probably like a spring back, but unless others shoot and review, we'll not know.

And them getting funded so quick -wow!

IanG
24-Oct-2014, 04:56
It's forgotten that LF equipment is a fraction of the price in the US compared to Europe, and also the tradition for using LF is growing faster amongst amateurs in Europe. LF was purely a professional medium until the early 1970's in Europe quite different to the US,

So the price in the UK at 130 is good. There aren't really any cheap second-hand FF cameras here unless they need work and parts.

Ian

plywood
24-Oct-2014, 17:18
First off a disclaimer, despite the 'plywood' handle I have no connection to this plywood 4X5 project.

That said it looks like a good idea to me, at least on a cost basis. The Walker Titan 4X5 pinhole camera sells for $219 in the US and is pinhole only. They have sold well over 1000 of them since introduction. Just now checking a currency conversion I see that 129 BP is about $209, add $32 to ship to the US and the price comes to under $250 total price. Pretty good IF they can carry it off and sell them for that price after backer rewards are fulfilled.

My concerns are that the whole thing may be too wobbly, I noticed that in the video, when they moved the bed back and forth it shifted side to side a bit.

As for the Travelwide, well at $99 it was an easy decision to back it. Unfortunately the execution has proved much much more difficult than those two lads ever imagined. It seems almost every part has had to be redesigned and as it stands now there is simply no estimate for delivery of the camera. The next time we see a picture of Ben, I quite sure he will be bald from pulling his hair out.

Randy Moe
24-Oct-2014, 18:03
It's forgotten that LF equipment is a fraction of the price in the US compared to Europe, and also the tradition for using LF is growing faster amongst amateurs in Europe. LF was purely a professional medium until the early 1970's in Europe quite different to the US,

So the price in the UK at 130 is good. There aren't really any cheap second-hand FF cameras here unless they need work and parts.

Ian

If EU LF hardware demand is so high and pricey why haven't we noticed speculators moving USA excess to EU? During my decades of British motorcycle collecting I often sent bikes back to England. Buyers were here filling containers, same with Japan, any Japanese bike under 400cc was scooped up and returned to the motherland. I have been involved in both.

Perhaps import taxes are the problem, as I understand British citizens can import used British products duty free. As least that was true 20 years ago.

I also now regret selling all those bikes for relatively little as young people in US are eager to buy the old junk bikes. Prices have soared.

I expect LF gear to soar in demand and price in US within 5 years. Attrition is still the biggest claimant here.

IanG
25-Oct-2014, 01:45
If EU LF hardware demand is so high and pricey why haven't we noticed speculators moving USA excess to EU? During my decades of British motorcycle collecting I often sent bikes back to England. Buyers were here filling containers, same with Japan, any Japanese bike under 400cc was scooped up and returned to the motherland. I have been involved in both.

Perhaps import taxes are the problem, as I understand British citizens can import used British products duty free. As least that was true 20 years ago.

I also now regret selling all those bikes for relatively little as young people in US are eager to buy the old junk bikes. Prices have soared.

I expect LF gear to soar in demand and price in US within 5 years. Attrition is still the biggest claimant here.


The forums and ebay mean we can do this as individuals cutting out middle men (speculators). We now get stung on all imports from outside the EU, Import duty (which varies), and VAT 20% which is paid on the cost of the item + duty & postage (shipping) this can add 30-35%. Doesn't matter now whether it was a British product originally.

I've heard of US LF photographers coming to shoot in Europe and then selling their gear here before leaving and that paid for some of their trip.

If you watch the forums you'll see many people from the EU and other parts of the world snapping up items from the US. 5-10 years ago LF equipment was very much cheaper here in the UK, I had a wide choice of De Vere enlargers to pick from when I bought my 5108, there would be 30 to 40 5504/507/5108's listed on ebay regularly with a good turnover, now they are much less common and much higher prices. The same has happened with other LF equipment here.

So yes I think you're right I've seen an increase in US prices as well, albeit slower at the moment.

Ian

dodphotography
25-Oct-2014, 16:06
Travelwide issued me a full refund in 10 seconds... Not even a "hey, we are almost there" speech. Kind of says something

AuditorOne
25-Oct-2014, 16:27
Travelwide issued me a full refund in 10 seconds... Not even a "hey, we are almost there" speech. Kind of says something

No patience. You will regret that one.

richardman
26-Oct-2014, 05:07
May be a good camera to do wet plate on?

dodphotography
26-Oct-2014, 07:41
May be a good camera to do wet plate on?

great point!

Dan Fromm
26-Oct-2014, 07:56
The forums and ebay mean we can do this as individuals cutting out middle men (speculators).

Ian, Jim Galli and I are arbitrageurs and proud of it. By buying low "here" and selling higher (usually) "there" we help sellers here who don't have the wherewithal to find buyers and buyers there who don't have the wherewithal to find sellers. Information is scarce and costly. To the extent that Jim and I have better knowledge than our sources and customers we help both, pull up prices where we buy and depress prices where we sell.

dodphotography
26-Oct-2014, 08:19
No patience. You will regret that one.

Eh, it was an impulse buy. I have enough stuff.

Zndrson
30-Oct-2014, 16:17
Obviously this isn't being marketed to current LF photographers. Its being marketed to people new to the medium that want to get into it without breaking the bank. Pretty simple concept. That being said, it could still be useful to current LF shooters. Not a bad backup camera. As someone mentioned before it could be a great wet plate camera. If you're doing some other experimentation but don't want to damage your nice Ebony this thing could be a great solution. Its just waiting to be modified and experimented with.

I'm encouraged that they were funded so quickly and by so many. I won't be buying the Intrepid, as I've got my travel-geared 4x5 covered. I would, however, be blisteringly interested if they produced a similarly designed 8x10. The purchase of a decent 8x10 field is cost prohibitive to someone like me, but something at this price range + film holders + lens makes the move a bit more palatable.

Anything and everything bringing attention to and helping sustain large format photography is something I feel we should all support. Large format film manufacturers will see the intense support. This one thing probably won't bring any long-lasting change, but its a building block.

dodphotography
30-Oct-2014, 17:15
I agree... An 8x10 would be an instant buy for me, say..600 dollars. It would allow me to beat on it with silver and not worry about the degradation of the wood. I'm in the same boat... I scraped every penny in my life and sold off every useless tool in my arsenal to buy a Ritter 810 and it's amazing, but NO way I'm making plates with it. That's what my shit Burke and james is for... Except that sucker doesn't fold and pack well, so it's so hard to bring on location.

Larry Kellogg
5-Nov-2014, 03:59
How much does this thing really weigh? I want to see a picture of it on a scale. They say less than 1.2kg, 2.6 pounds, but that sounds unlikely to me. I've worked with birch plywood in a shop, and it is heavy stuff, from what I recall.

Don't compare this to the Travelwide, they're completely different cameras. The Travelwide is a point and shoot 4x5 that can be mounted on a GorillaPod because it is so light. The Travelwide is going to be great, and it's almost here. Yes, I know it was delayed, but patience is a virtue, as they say.

I have a relatively lightweight 4x5 field camera, a Wisner, which is a beautiful camera. Wisners can be had for pretty good prices.

I agree with the idea of using this as a wet plate camera though, if you want to get messy.

plywood
17-Nov-2014, 14:52
Forty one hours to go and they are only 8 cameras away from 400 cameras. That is quite a demand for 4X5! I hope they can pull it off, it seems like a very short time to get 400 cameras ready by March 2015.

Randy Moe
17-Nov-2014, 15:58
All good, let's hope they all buy cases of film AND enlarging paper.

If between Travelwide and Intrepid we get several thousand more USERS of film and paper, that could help the market for us all.

richardman
17-Nov-2014, 16:54
I am horrible person. I suspect at least 50% of these cameras would not have more than 6 sheets of film go through them before they either sit on the shelves or sold.

Randy Moe
17-Nov-2014, 17:05
I am horrible person. I suspect at least 50% of these cameras would not have more than 6 sheets of film go through them before they either sit on the shelves or sold.

Takes way more than 6 sheets to figure out how to shoot and develop. I have wasted 100's of sheets learning...

If I had any brains I would shoot 35 mm or 120 of the same LF film until I get my 'thing' happening...

Do the math and there must still be at least 10K LF shooters or the money is too small for anything viable. Maybe 100K users worldwide is more like it?

plywood
17-Nov-2014, 20:17
I am horrible person. I suspect at least 50% of these cameras would not have more than 6 sheets of film go through them before they either sit on the shelves or sold.

One word.....well two words; Paper Negatives

It is a great and cheap way to try out large format without breaking the bank. Since the materials can be handled under safelight the darkroom work is also simplified. With a flat bed scanner you could even put the negative into file to run a bigger print if so desired and of course there are always contact prints. Bit small at 4X5 but serviceable for seeing what you have. Even if you had zero darkroom equipment you could get set up with trays, chemicals, a dozen 1 qt. amber bottles, funnel, safelight bulb, tongs, and a 500 sheet box of Ilford MGIV RC 4X6 to trim down to 3.9 x 4.9 inches for the DDS holders. The whole thing should not run more than $180 tops.

richardman
17-Nov-2014, 20:38
I'm not talking about how to get into LF. I am just saying that I am cynical on whether these cameras will really be used at all.

plywood
17-Nov-2014, 22:03
Ah, you could be right but, all the same, if you make the transition into LF easy then you encourage people to continue in it. When it comes down to it, I would not be surprised if 90% of all large format gear now in the hands of photographers sits idle. Perhaps 90% of all high quality film gear in smaller formats is also unused.

Randy Moe
17-Nov-2014, 23:13
True most of us have more than one camera, some many more. We are preserving them for the unborn.

Collectors never really own anything, we just rent it, until the next renter shows up.

Look what a good job we did with those pyramids.

Drew Bedo
18-Nov-2014, 08:21
Twenty five year gi my only camera was a Pre-Annaversary Graphic that had been refurbished from Junk Parts status into a light-tight beater (still have it). I woul have been very interested in this Kick-Starter project back then.

There is a place foor this new camera and this type of effort in our LF world. There is potential here for a kit or parts or for plans. They just have to figure out the business model that works for them. It all looks much better than an assembled Bender or the British kit that was called "Bull Dog" (think).

After this project comes to fruition, I would hope for an 8x10 version with options for ULF conversions.

Drew Bedo
18-Nov-2014, 08:27
True most of us have more than one camera, some many more. We are preserving them for the unborn.

Collectors never really own anything, we just rent it, until the next renter shows up.

Look what a good job we did with those pyramids.

I could not agree more on this. Ownership? I would rather think of myself as a curator or steward. I cring whenever some vintage large format camera comes up on e-Bay in several auctions broken down in parts.

Randy Moe
18-Nov-2014, 09:25
I could not agree more on this. Ownership? I would rather think of myself as a curator or steward. I cring whenever some vintage large format camera comes up on e-Bay in several auctions broken down in parts.

I have not parted out cameras or motorcycles. It makes me sick, but they are worth more in bits.

My last nice absolutely stock Honda sold for a fairly high price, triple what I had in it and I rode it for 20 years.

The buyer immediately started talking of 'cafe racer' conversion and I took a moment to advise him to save all old parts for the next 'fad' of stock bikes. He couldn't even ride it, his buddy rode it home...and he wobbled off. :(

LF_NLD
18-Nov-2014, 15:54
To me this project seems like bringing DIY LF cameras to everyone. That's great because of one reason: the price!

crl
16-Dec-2014, 08:57
Cant wait for mine to arrive.. Since shooting digital feels more like a job now a days I am excited to slow down and shoot some large format.

HMG
16-Dec-2014, 19:13
I could not agree more on this. Ownership? I would rather think of myself as a curator or steward. I cring whenever some vintage large format camera comes up on e-Bay in several auctions broken down in parts.

Perhaps. But those parts probably resurrected more than 1 LF camera from broken to working (and hopefully used).

AuditorOne
18-Dec-2014, 18:25
I am looking forward to a new 4x5 camera. Especially one this light. I even picked up a new Schneider 150 for it, though that lens cost more than the camera did. :)

Jockos
12-Jun-2015, 00:10
First 10 have been shipped, has anyone here gotten theirs yet? :)

StoneNYC
12-Jun-2015, 06:19
I spoke to them and they are getting their website ready for new purchases, the price with shipping to the U.S. Was something like $230 total, that's awesome and I'm getting one. The cost of a new bellows alone is more than that for most LF retailers.

If it turns out to be a good camera I would buy an 8x10 to keep in the car as a "knock around" in case I see a good shot but don't have my good one with me.

munz6869
12-Jun-2015, 06:38
I'm looking forward to drilling holes in mine to 'pimp' it with accessories - cold shoes and the like - the kind of modification I'd squirm at doing to my beautiful cherry Wista...

Marc!

StoneNYC
12-Jun-2015, 06:42
I'm looking forward to drilling holes in mine to 'pimp' it with accessories - cold shoes and the like - the kind of modification I'd squirm at doing to my beautiful cherry Wista...

Marc!

Heh, try adding a cold shoe to your 8x10 Chamonix... Scary, but I did it! Lol.