Nightvision goggles for developing film?

[axs810]

I know I've read somewhere (I believe Ken Lee) that it's possible to develop film while wearing nightvision goggles to help see what you're doing. Normally I wouldn't need an aid to develop film in trays but now that I'm developing my film at home it's become a lot more difficult to maneuver since my bathroom is close to 4x4 feet with no real countertops to rest trays on. My bathroom is so small that if two people were standing side by side it's already crowded. My question is, has anyone used nightvision goggles to develop film? Can you comment on your experience using them? What kind of film did you develop? Pan or ortho?


I really don't want to spend money on night vision goggles but at this point it seems like the only possible solution to my problem. I hate having to juggle my trays now and accidently spilling chemicals on my floor. I always clean up but the smell bugs people and worries me because my dog always becomes curious.

[Tim Meisburger]

Get a daylight tank. Its cheaper.

[Ken Lee]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?24006-Infrared-Goggles-gear-for-tray-development

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?28854-Using-night-viewing-devices-in-darkroom

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?101519-infrared-goggles (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?101519-infrared-goggles)

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?8853-Infrared-goggles-in-the-darkroom

http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/index.php#Monocular

[Bill Burk]

I still use the ATN Viper. I enjoy it for developing film (by time and temperature but no futzing) and loading film holders. I also got a kid's toy viewer from Goodwill for $5.49 (it was included in a video game MW2), thought maybe guests could use it. Some people say the kid's viewer would work as well. I'm sure it would be "fine" but not as ergonomic as the ATN Viper.

[Jac@stafford.net]

After I experienced a traumatic hands injury so that I had little feeling which made loading a daylight tank impossible I used a binocular IR night scope. It worked after I inserted my horribly astigmatic lenses in it. The take-away is that some scopes are not intended for close work. Be sure that what you choose can focus upon your trays, or at least close enough.
.

[Bob Mann]

Still using a Viper, one of the better tools I own. Like many things you can get along without one, but once you try it there is no going back. Spend the money you won't regret it.

[axs810]

Does it take time to get used to developing with the ATN Viper? Does it slightly change your hand eye coordination or is it just like looking through a pair of glasses? These can be used with all types of film correct?

[Jac@stafford.net]

The IR goggles are good for all film except infrared, of course. The view is live, no delay, but the view is green and quality is not great. It was good for spotting coyote on my property.

[axs810]

Sorry I guess I meant is there any magnification when looking thru the IR goggles or is it like wearing glasses?

[Bill Burk]

1:1, and close focusing. The headgear is awkward to put on, but once past that part... It's not hard to get used to.

[oldlincoln]

+1 For the ATN Viper. Diabetes has made the sense of touch in my hands so I can't load reels and holders by feel. I find it easier to use than safe lights for X-Ray too.

[Eric Woodbury]

Here's a change of direction. I haven't tried this yet, but I'm suspicious that one could develop film under deep-red LED light. Most film, although not all (examples such as T-grain films come to mind), have very little responsivity to light beyond 650 nm. Most of us can see to 700 nm, except for those with red-green colorblindness. You can now buy LEDs that peak at 680 nm (http://www.marktechopto.com/pdf/products/datasheet/MTE6800N2_UR_2012_05_17.pdf) that have virtually no light shorter than 650 nm. These LEDs won't appear very bright because human vision is falling off rapidly by 680 nm. Anyway, just a thought.

Test before you do.

[axs810]

I saw another forum member recommend these for xray film...so do you think if I try one of these (in theory) I should be able to develop under a safelight with film such as kodak 320txp?

Red LED - 630 nm

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/led-decorative/led-night-light-bulb/448/1499/#/tab/Specifications

[oldlincoln]

I use 680nm illuminators bounced off of the ceiling for my NV device. No trace of fogging, but I can't see by them either.

[Bill Burk]

I've tested the ATN Viper with Kodak 400TMAX (TMY-2) specifically, which I believe has less sensitivity to near infra-red than Kodak 320TXP.

I've used the viewer with Tri-X without noticing any fog, but I didn't test the film sensitometrically for the difference with and without.

I believe the device is reasonably safe for Tri-X, I just haven't proved how safe or for how long. One thing I did is cut the light down with a patch of developed silver film (as opposed to black E-6 slide film which is completely transparent to IR). I'd recommend that precaution, because it extends how long you can use the viewer without any fog.

I tried other IR light sources from Radio Shack, but once you go too far into Infrared light, they don't provide the illumination the ATN Viper needs. It is a 1st generation device, so it cannot see too deep into infrared.

Human eyes can't see under the light though, even though you can see the LED clearly, you cant see by its light (p.s. I don't think it's good to look at it - that is bright IR.)

[Eric Woodbury]

630 nm will probably fog film. 630 is the peak and there is spill over on both sides.

Bill, you are right. Don't look at IR sources. Or UV. Even with some of the bright, very blue LEDs I use sunglasses. Your eyes may not see them as bright, but can be damaged even more so, for this reason.

[axs810]

Wait a minute...I think I got lost here. So are you guys using the ATN Viper with bounced LED or IR in addition to what is already being projected by the ATN?

Sorry this is a new subject for me so I just want to make sure I understand you all correctly.

[Sevo]

Regarding using deep red LEDs for development by sight: While we can see deep red bare-eyed, our capabilities there are restricted to very coarse silhouettes - I always found it very difficult to develop half tone films by sight when working in print shop labs brightly lit by arrays of red FL tubes. And that is a trivial subject in intense light, the illumination safe for photographic film is further down the spectrum, and you would have to evaluate tonality and not merely contrast.

[c.d.ewen]

I ponied up for a binocular viewer (NOBG1) from Night Owl Optics years ago and wouldn't think of being without it. I use a separate IR illuminator I got off eBay, as using the built-in one chews up batteries. I keep it about four feet away from the sink.

Tip: always keep a spare battery around. And another tip: be sure-fingered when turning the goggles off, or you'll be hitting that spare battery too soon. The image goes dark very slowly on power-down, so you want to be confident that you positively hit that button.

The goggles can be focused quite close up, but have a small depth of field. Focusing them at arm's length working distance means I have to bend over to read the under-sink timer; you get used to that.

Using the goggles for developing by inspection takes more practice than I want to do. They are indispensable, however, for klutz's like me who are constantly dropping things on the floor while loading film holders, etc.

Charley

[younghoon Kil]

To avoid the long drain/fill times, I use three tanks, but I don't use them in the "dip-n-dunk" method. The following method does away with the long fill and drain time; all three tanks are in a plastic tub water bath.

I turn out the lights and load film into the "stop bath" tank for the prewash, turn lights back on, then give a one minute prewash with constant agitation, then drain the "S" tank. When ready to start developing, turn out the lights, remove the "S" lid, put film in the "developer" tank with dev at correct temp, lift film holder up and down for about 20sec, my dev time starts at the end of the 20 sec, put the "D" lid on the "D" tank gently, develop and agitate by inversion method with lights on.

...

I'm going to follow this method to develop Foma films using CombiPlan tanks.
And for this step, I'm going to use night vision goggles.

I bought Jakks Pacific's Spynet Night Vision Goggles on eBay, but it was very inconvenient for me. :(

- https://www.amazon.com/Nightfox-Magnification-Quarters-Infrared-Rechargeable/dp/B09L8LYN1Y

So I'm thinking of purchasing Nightfox Red(1x, 940nm, 1080p) from eBay(these goggles provide a comfortable adjustable head strap). The price is around $90 - $100.
If there is anything else I need to be careful about or prepare for, I would like to ask for advice. :)

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[McSnood]

Some years back my son bought a special edition Call of Duty game that came with very cheap plastic night vision goggles. It did not require any IR or dark red light, although a red light light could be turned on for more distance it was not needed for up to about 6 feet. I confirmed no light leak from around the face mask and have used them ever since. Not the best visual quality but you know where things are.

[Eugen Mezei]

If you can see with it without IR, than the film also can see. (Speak your darkroom is not completly dark.)

[younghoon Kil]

Thanks for all the replies.

[xkaes]

I once had a bathroom as small as yours -- not fun -- but you did not start out by saying exactly what your "problem" is. If it is simply, "I want to develop by inspection", I'd ask "Why?" All you need to do is run some simple tests on sample pieces of film to determine how long to develop the film -- in a small daylight tank of your choice. No need for inspection.

Am I missing something?

[wayne77]

Oh, night vision goggles are a total game-changer for cramped spaces like your bathroom! Seriously, they make developing film a breeze, especially when it's dark in there. I've used them for black and white film, both panchromatic and orthochromatic.

[younghoon Kil]

I bought Nightfox Red ($110, open box, 1x, 940nm, 1080p rec) on eBay.
It also comes with an 18650 battery, a 32GB memory card, and a comfortable head strap and neck strap.
I also bought 940nm IR Flashlight from Amazon.

In the bathroom, I pointed the IR Flashlight at the ceiling and turned off(IR:0) the infrared LED of the Nightvision goggles.
The result is as shown in the attached photo.

The goggles can adjust the brightness of the LCD screen(1-5), and no light leaks out of the goggles.
Now it's time to test if it affects the Foma films.
Thank you all for your responses!

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This image is extracted from a 1920 x 1080 IR video.

[Kino]

I bought Nightfox Red ($110, open box, 1x, 940nm, 1080p rec) on eBay.
It also comes with an 18650 battery, a 32GB memory card, and a comfortable head strap and neck strap.
I also bought 940nm IR Flashlight from Amazon.

In the bathroom, I pointed the IR Flashlight at the ceiling and turned off(IR:0) the infrared LED of the Nightvision goggles.
The result is as shown in the attached photo.

The goggles can adjust the brightness of the LCD screen(1-5), and no light leaks out of the goggles.
Now it's time to test if it affects the Foma films.
Thank you all for your responses!

247727
This image is extracted from a 1920 x 1080 IR video.

Let us know your experience with these; the toy versions are just too cumbersome and view limited.

[younghoon Kil]

- The Nightfox Red's optical magnification is 1x, the LCD screen is big and wide, and I feel comfortable. Jakks Pacific's Spynet Night Vision Goggles were really uncomfortable.
- The Field of View of these goggles is 46 degrees.
- The LCD screen is brightness adjustable from 1-5.
- The IR LED can be adjusted to IR:OFF, 0-5, and "IR:0" does not use the infrared LED.
- The eyecup of the goggles doesn't fit me perfectly, but the light from the LCD screen doesn't leak out. (I also bought this dark cloth (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XRYPMV7?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1) to make a shade for my goggles, just in case.)
- The depth perception is almost realistic. There's no comparison to toy goggles.

However, there is one problem. I'm nearsighted and I wear glasses when looking at a computer screen, but the LCD screen is slightly out of focus, even when I use the focus ring on the goggles. I'm looking for a way to solve this problem.

[Kino]

-

However, there is one problem. I'm nearsighted and I wear glasses when looking at a computer screen, but the LCD screen is slightly out of focus, even when I use the focus ring on the goggles. I'm looking for a way to solve this problem.

I wonder if you could squeeze in a pair of nearsighted swimming goggles.

There are also VR2 Myopia Lenses on Ebay that might be pressed into service.

[younghoon Kil]

I wonder if you could squeeze in a pair of nearsighted swimming goggles.

There are also VR2 Myopia Lenses on Ebay that might be pressed into service.

Thank you for the information!
There is room for myopia lenses as shown in the attached photo.
I'm going to the optician in the next few days to see if I can get myopia lenses to fit these goggles.

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[Kino]

Let me know what how it goes; I am exploring NV goggles myself and am reluctant to purchase if I cannot get some correction for my ageing eyes.

[younghoon Kil]

I went to the optician today. The optician told me that he can make my nearsighted lenses in about 20 minutes and the cost is about 30,000 South Korean won(about $22).
I will go again in a few days.

[Kino]

I went to the optician today. The optician told me that he can make my nearsighted lenses in about 20 minutes and the cost is about 30,000 South Korean won(about $22).
I will go again in a few days.

Will these be mounted in the night vision unit or be a separate pair of glasses?

[younghoon Kil]

I will put a pair of eyeglasses that are customized to my vision inside a rubber eyecup.
And I'm going to use gaffer tape or something to secure it.

[Mick Fagan]

younghoon Kil, I've had a look around and although you didn't give a direct link for what you purchased, can you tell me if this is basically what you have?

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/224905534908?itmmeta=01HS07ABK9H92ASZJBCHGG8SRV&hash=item345d6a1dbc:g:sdoAAOSwEWViPqvU&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8NvrLCUcEWCDHRtmoRopA8pj7tfqYCC7X2twkVexeQKY24Ox0yuohI1FB1W6Qje0kGGgKT1AhXwp56mZblZGg3ZcQLWj%2FhFOXq6dIl375emMkTQ6cffIpeMpU0iX3v71Te9p8fHa2uF%2F%2B0Bt522dUJhzR4WWmog0dWx4yX6KlZyjS1voZNviUM4bLd%2BuBVgNmnGGC7sNcmJ9bejI7fTA%2BGeEs%2FjPjn9KgO9nM1e1DK2YTs6lMz4R7HAPefcLsnzgCY0be03y9Qp%2FuUDRTm5RjyTutZtym%2FmLLb5uKPhtZWSTWZpjh6fTWOQyiW49y9ztmA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBM9Lmph8hj

The only issue I have is that the price in Australian dollars is about $450, which is not at this stage feasible, although as the feeling in my hands keeps getting worse, it may be the only option I have.

[phdgent]

This is what I used when operating my Colenta AT60 developing machine.
In the Colenta the films had to be attached on the reels with small red plastic clips. These clips, on very rare occasions, jumped off and blocked the evacuation valve from closing which made the chemicals be dumped right the way they entered the processing chamber.
Then I had to open the machine's lid and try to pick that clip and again attach the film's end on the reel, all in complete darkness.
So I bought a used IR viewer from the AGFA-Gevaert factory in Mortsel, it's an old '80s one eye goggle, but it does the job perfectly, later I got a more modern LED strip IR light which turns my darkroom into a fully sun lightened balcony but only to be seen through the IR viewer.
I still use it for developing film in open bath, and cutting down 13x18cm sheet film into small 2"x3" sheets for the Grafmatic 23 film holder.

I only had to mount it on a construction site helmet...

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[younghoon Kil]

younghoon Kil, I've had a look around and although you didn't give a direct link for what you purchased, can you tell me if this is basically what you have?

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/224905534908?itmmeta=01HS07ABK9H92ASZJBCHGG8SRV&hash=item345d6a1dbc:g:sdoAAOSwEWViPqvU&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8NvrLCUcEWCDHRtmoRopA8pj7tfqYCC7X2twkVexeQKY24Ox0yuohI1FB1W6Qje0kGGgKT1AhXwp56mZblZGg3ZcQLWj%2FhFOXq6dIl375emMkTQ6cffIpeMpU0iX3v71Te9p8fHa2uF%2F%2B0Bt522dUJhzR4WWmog0dWx4yX6KlZyjS1voZNviUM4bLd%2BuBVgNmnGGC7sNcmJ9bejI7fTA%2BGeEs%2FjPjn9KgO9nM1e1DK2YTs6lMz4R7HAPefcLsnzgCY0be03y9Qp%2FuUDRTm5RjyTutZtym%2FmLLb5uKPhtZWSTWZpjh6fTWOQyiW49y9ztmA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBM9Lmph8hj

The only issue I have is that the price in Australian dollars is about $450, which is not at this stage feasible, although as the feeling in my hands keeps getting worse, it may be the only option I have.

It's Nightfox Red. This is a discontinued product.
Compared to the Swift 2 Pro, the Red only has a 940nm IR LED, and no 850nm IR LED. And the Swift 2 Pro has a more comfortable headstrap. But the Red's headstrap is comfortable enough for me.

- https://int.nightfoxstore.com/products/nightfox-swift-2-pro-night-vision-goggles

I chose Red because of optical magnification 1x, IR wavelength 940nm, Screen resolution 480x360(recording resolution is 1080p), screen brightness control, and headstrap.
When I bought it from eBay two weeks ago, there were 3-4 Nightfox Red(open box) and it was about $100-$130.

p.s. The LCD screen is slightly out of focus to my eyes, but it doesn't really bother me. Anyway, I am planning to order 40.5mm diopter lenses (+1, +2, and +4) from AliExpress.

- https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001289999286.html

p.s.2. And I turn off the Red's 940nm IR LEDs and use this 940nm IR flashlight instead.

- https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003628004997.html

p.s.3. 1080p video has a little noise, but it's surprisingly sharp.

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[Kino]

I need something to cut large format film down and not lose a finger in the process.

How is the working distance? What do you think is the minimum focus distance and is the field of view wide enough to encompass, say a paper cutter?

[Mick Fagan]

younghoon Kil, many thanks for the links.

I'm chasing up something in Germany at the moment, if that doesn't come off I'll pursue what you have given me.

[younghoon Kil]

These goggles have a field of view of 46 degrees.
The washing machine shown in this photo is 50-60cm away from me.
The size of the top of the washing machine is approximately 59 x 46 cm.
I cut A4 paper with goggles on, but it felt like I was cutting without goggles.

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[Kino]

Thank you younghoon Kil for the detailed responses.

[younghoon Kil]

One nice thing about the Nightfox Red IR goggles is that the 18650 battery is not only rechargeable via the goggles' USB port, but it's also removable. :)

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[Kino]

How did your lens adaptation go? Have you used your vision correcting lenses in the Nightfox?

I found the same model used on Ebay and bought it. Went to the local Dollar store and bought the smallest 3.0+ reading glasses I could find. They just fit inside the rubber eye cups and work reasonably well after I took off the arms. Just wedged them in and they seem to be fairly stable. Might have to rig-up a black cloth around the eye cup to be sure of no leaks, but I have a big head and would have probably had to do it anyway.

Hope to try them for real later tonight.

[younghoon Kil]

The diopter lenses I purchased from AliExpress will arrive in a few days.
I hope you get good results.

[younghoon Kil]

The diopter lenses I ordered from AliExpress arrived, and I realized that my eyes needed +8 lenses, so I ordered two +8 diopter lenses again. ($3.99 x 2).
- https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003152838250.html

p.s. If the scene flickers when you are wearing the Nightfox IR goggles, it means the battery in the external IR flash light is dead.

[Mick Fagan]

I really didn't understand what kind of diopter lenses you were ordering for that price, but after following the link you gave, I see that as an extremely cheap way to do it.

Another great tip.

[Jim Jones]

Walmart and some of the very low priced stores may have a variety of diopter eyeglasses for about that price.

[Kino]

Cut down my first Whole Plate from 8x10 sheet film just now using the Nightfox Red goggles. I could not comfortably wear the correction lenses inside the mask, so I lived with the slight blur and it wasn't too bad.

I expect my first attempt will show fingerprinting due to my fumbling around while establishing a method to the madness, but overall I am now confident I can work with the goggles.

You can plan all you want to, but will inevitably find you did not anticipate certain situations until you do it for real, so I am making some notes to adjust the process.

The goggles did fog-up about 25 minutes into the session, but I could still see well enough to finish the last few minutes.

Next time, I will certainly wear nitrile gloves.

As suggested, I bought a IR flashlight and used that to illuminate the paper cutter and table top, which worked well. Both the Nightfox and the IR flashlight have rechargeable batteries, so that makes it convenient.

I'll know soon if I scratched and finger printed the film badly...