Printing Murals

[AndrewHall]

Hello All,
This is my first post here, although I have followed the forum for some time and found answers among the posts and replies.
I've had many years of experience as a professional photographer, and went digital, like the rest of the commercial world in 2007, but I'm taking a leap and returning to traditional methods.
I am in the process of planning a darkroom to print large black and white prints, at least 48" width and wondered if anybody had any experience or know-how they would like to share.
My present darkroom is a good size, recently set up and capable of handling paper sizes up to 20 x30", but I have a great client who wants to push the envelope and see just how big a print is possible.

Does anybody have any advice on tanks/trays/troughs? I'd love to try and minimize the handling of the paper through the various baths and wanted to ask if anybody had ever used HUGE tanks to omit 'rolling' the paper through the chemicals?
I realise that handling a flat sheet of 6 foot x4 foot paper may be a challenge, but if I were to fabricate 7 foot x 5 foot tanks (I am looking at some pretty big spaces to install this darkroom btw.)

I have read with interest the posts by Bob Carnie and Frotog on these issues and would love to hear any views members who have experience of large format printing may have on this.

Thanks in advance,
Andrew Hall

[Dave Wooten]

Touch base with Clyde Butcher.

[DrTang]

many years go I printed some up.. like 4 foot x 6 or 8 foot long

I had a MCX45 enlarger (the big beseler whatever the number is) and the head turned horizontal

and then I binderclipped the paper to a .. I think table on it's side


for processing..I built frames from 2x4's and put plastic visclean - plastic over them to make trays

since I didn't have room in the darkroom.. I put them outside and printed on a moonless night and processed outside on the driveway

I used a mop to slop the chemicals around

okay..they came out spotty and ununiformly processed.. but the subject matter kind of worked with it..so I was happy

[Daniel Stone]

I was going to say TALK with Bob Carnie, as in call him on the telephone. Before you build/renovate a space and spend time/money doing so, it might behoove you to go and check out a lab or two that are still offering optical printing in this size range. Seeing how they work might help you streamline your process.

A friend of mine made some very large prints from 6x7cm b/w negatives. He enlarged them using a Beseler 23CII enlarger, flipped up(to project horizontally), onto a wall easel he made of 1/32" thick sheet steel, screwed to the wall studs w/ 1/2"x2" furring strips between the steel plate and the wall. He used magnet strips to hold the paper up against the steel(which he painted black btw, both to protect the steel, but also to minimize reflection back into the paper). Worked well for him. He used gardening planter boxes to scroll process the large(40x50" or so sized sheets) in his kitchen. He made a vertical print washer, where each print was separated from the next by some plastic chicken-coop material. He used 8" ID ABS pipe to construct the vertical washing tube. All standard, off-the-shelf parts/fittings were used. He hung the prints to dry from his clothesline in the back yard, so they could bake under the LA sun(he was printing during the summer). Weights attached to the bottom corners of the paper allowed the paper to dry w/o much curling.

Low tech I know, but he spent under $150 to make everything, and only had to go to Home Depot ONCE(as in one trip) as soon as he had his shopping list.

Similar "liner" box to what my buddy used(although his were the 48" long version):
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Pennington-Plastic-Liner-for-36-in-Window-Box-100507831/202962891

With prints of this size, you'll want to have a suitable enlarging lens(well, I guess it depends on what size film you're enlarging, so magnification ratio), and really pay attention to ALIGNMENT. Nothing worse than having a sharp, well shot negative ruined by a mis-aligned enlarger or easel.

-Dan

[LF_rookie_to_be]

Alignment is the key. Then the G-type lens (Rodagon-G or G-Componon). Much of everything else, as others elaborated, can be found in your local hardware store, construction site or junkyard and cobbled-up in few afternoons. Lots of patience required.
If you want to do the alignment properly, I have a razor-sharp 4x5" Schneider glass negative from the 50s with an excellent pattern that I can contact-print and develop for you just for the price of shipping to the EU and back to wherever you are.

[frotog]

Hello All,


Does anybody have any advice on tanks/trays/troughs? I'd love to try and minimize the handling of the paper through the various baths and wanted to ask if anybody had ever used HUGE tanks to omit 'rolling' the paper through the chemicals?
I realise that handling a flat sheet of 6 foot x4 foot paper may be a challenge, but if I were to fabricate 7 foot x 5 foot tanks (I am looking at some pretty big spaces to install this darkroom btw.)

I have read with interest the posts by Bob Carnie and Frotog on these issues and would love to hear any views members who have experience of large format printing may have on this.

Thanks in advance,
Andrew Hall

You would be unwise to "omit rolling" in this process. Flat wet paper has the rigidity of a wet noodle and will crimp when handling in more ways than you can now imagine. There is no benefit at all to processing in huge tanks. Besides destroying the print, you will waste valuable time in setting up and striking down your set up.

My process is nothing special - I learned from people at Gus Kayafas' Palm Press lab. Everyone else who actually successfully makes large b/w's murals on a regular basis pretty much does it the same way - rolling the print in a trough. Contacting artists/techs who do this on a regular basis will not be of any help as they will all say the same thing - roll your print through troughs. Of course there are a few outliers who've designed Rube Goldberg-like contraptions that will get the job done though I can't say for sure how well they get the job done and at what cost. The lab rats in orange jump-suits at Bob's process much the same way I do but with ten times as much chemistry (and a slightly different technique of rolling). I maintain that all you need is a gallon of working chem. and a rolling position with the hands placed about a foot apart instead of reaching for the edges of the paper (not sure why you'd want your face so close to the chemical process). The most laborious aspect of getting started is making yourself a tray. Mine are out of s.s. sheet - 52" long, 12" wide, 4" deep. I prefer using two trays but one can successfully process archival murals in one tray if space is at a premium.

It seems like two or three times a year someone asks this question. They automatically assume that it must be a daunting task and so come up with equally daunting solutions. Do yourself a favor and take the well-trodden path and see how easy it is because anything else will send you down the Goldberg rabbit-hole.

[bob carnie]

I only roll process the long paper from the Lambda 30 inch by 15 ft has been my largest single sheet of fibre paper that way, and yes I do use a ton of chemistrys for all my work , probably double than most workers, for enlarger prints up to 40 x50 I use large custom trays much like what you would see in a Clyde Butcher Video.

[Larry Gebhardt]

Rolling in trays seems pretty intuitive. How do you wash and dry the mural prints? Likewise how do you mount a FB print that large? I imagine the curl could be excessive.

[AndrewHall]

[QUOTE=frotog;1163591]You would be unwise to "omit rolling" in this process. Flat wet paper has the rigidity of a wet noodle and will crimp when handling in more ways than you can now imagine. There is no benefit at all to processing in huge tanks. Besides destroying the print, you will waste valuable time in setting up and striking down your set up.



Thanks for the reply Frotog, but isn't Clyde Butcher processing large prints flat in his videos? He seems to slide from one to the next without any problems.
What I don't see, is how to wash, dry and flatten fiber based prints in his videos.
Any body have any insight on that part of the process?

[Peter De Smidt]

A mural enlarger, such as a De Vere 810H, makes this a lot easier. Something like a Versalab parallel helps a lot, as alignment is very important. Another resource would be to contact J. Shimon Julie Lindemann, http://www.shimonlindemann.com/info/, in the past they made some pretty big prints from 8x10 negs.

[Drew Wiley]

Making huge black and white prints was once routine in pro labs. Typically a Durst or DeVere horizontal enlarger on tracks, a big magnetic wall easel with a feed at
one end for the paper roll, Rodagon G or Apo Nikkor lenses. Machines were available which allowed roller transport from one trough to another for smaller operations.
The big outfits had more automated stuff. Large drums would be difficult to use with soggy fiber-based paper, but I've seen a couple models with some kind of internal retainer system or mesh support that would allow up to 40x60. They'd be quite rare now. Hasn't Butcher largely moved on to inkjet machines for his big
stuff?

[AndrewHall]

Thanks Daniel, some good information there.

[bob carnie]

If you want to make good murals that mimic the quality of smaller prints, there is no short cuts, you need space, power , water , good lenses, aligned enlargers using glass, and big sinks and an ability to dry, flatten and mount your prints.... yes you can jury rig this and make prints that are big, but you need to be aware that quality does not come cheap.

My large prints are IMO as beautiful as the smaller versions, and since I live in a large Metro Area, the costs are significant and the commitment to space is a life long addiction.

I have made the decision to max out on 40 x50 for enlarger work , and my digital wet fibre prints max out at 30 inches by 8 ft.
I wish I could go larger but it would mean moving to an area where rent is much , much less and my core business would suffer with this type of move.

All elements are important to make the right print.

[AndrewHall]

This is very wise advice Bob, and pretty much where my conclusions are now leading. Printing effectively at a size larger than 40 x 50 is like establishing a print works or a paper mill, with a comparable investment in time, space and commitment to training.
I am producing pretty consistent prints up to 40 x 30 now, but see no end to the learning process. The expertise required truly is a life's work and I am glad to have a forum like this to benefit from the experience of others.
I'd love to hear any advice on drying and flattening of fiber based prints larger than 20 x 24. Hanging vertically, or drying flat? Then how to flatten them sufficiently without dry mounting?
Questions, questions.
Thanks to all who have chipped in so far.


If you want to make good murals that mimic the quality of smaller prints, there is no short cuts, you need space, power , water , good lenses, aligned enlargers using glass, and big sinks and an ability to dry, flatten and mount your prints.... yes you can jury rig this and make prints that are big, but you need to be aware that quality does not come cheap.

My large prints are IMO as beautiful as the smaller versions, and since I live in a large Metro Area, the costs are significant and the commitment to space is a life long addiction.

I have made the decision to max out on 40 x50 for enlarger work , and my digital wet fibre prints max out at 30 inches by 8 ft.
I wish I could go larger but it would mean moving to an area where rent is much , much less and my core business would suffer with this type of move.

All elements are important to make the right print.

[frotog]

I haven't watched the Butcher make prints so I can't comment on his technique. As for equipment, you don't need much more than you probably already have to make murals as good as your small prints but I should add the caveat, only if you're a smart and careful technician.

When I first learned this technique we were using Omega 4x5 enlargers and single bulb chromega heads, spun 180 degrees on their turrets, counter-weighted and projecting onto a 5 foot wide piece of masonite. The precision of the alignment was such that we made exhibition quality prints tack sharp corner to corner with the lens stopped down one stop from wide open. Exposure times were between 45" to a minute.

I've since moved on to Dursts which make the job easier, faster but the end product is the same. The point here is that you don't need a huge space or fancy equipment.

To reiterate what's already been said - Laser alignment of the stages is essential. Working at the optimal f-stop of the enlarger lens is also essential. Better yet, find a rodenstock G series lens. The difference between a G series lens and the best APO lens money can buy is strikingly real when you get past 12x.

I can process a 52" wide roll of paper in a standard size sink and in a regular darkroom with a vertical enlarger without hassle. Never felt the need for more space, larger sinks - one more benefit to working with rolled prints.

As for viewing and drying...

I have two ferrous viewing walls in my studio and rare earth magnets to hold the fb print to the walls - one wall is for prints with residual hypo, the other is for fully washed prints (no, I don't use a giant 700 gallon print washer). The rolled print is placed against the wall, the leading edge secured to the surface with magnets and then slowly unrolled, all the while placing additional magnets along the horizontal axis to get the print to stay on the wall. Once a final print is pulled, paper towels are used to wipe excess water off before print is left to dry. Prints this size need to dry vertically if you want them to dry evenly and without crimps. Before the ferrous walls and magnets, we used sheets of homosote and push-pins - about a $50 expense. For flattening, a Seal 510 is indispensable however you could get away with the next size down if you're maxing out at 42" x 65" - just feed it through in sections using oversized sheets of 4-ply. If you get the humidity of your studio right, the prints will turn out very flat with little to no curl. Edwal used to make a print flattening solution, maybe they still do, that can be very helpful in overly dry conditions.

So do you need fancy equipment to make exhibition quality prints? No, unless you consider a laser alignment tool, trough, good lens and a glass carrier fancy. Do you need big sinks? A standard 10' wide drkrm. sink will more than suffice. Do you need awesome darkroom technique? Well yes, of course, as Bob says "there is no short cuts".

BTW, don't skimp on ventilation - just because you can't see the fumes does not mean that they aren't affecting you adversely!

[AndrewHall]

Thanks Frotog, I'll take your advice on the lens and the Seal 510 and see what I can get.
I have a 20x30 dry mounting press, but larger prints are a drag, as I don't want to flatten the print in sections in case the surface doesn't look even.(At the moment, I am using an 8 foot x4 foot plywood and plexiglass sandwich.)
I am still in the test stages with all my work over 20x30", so all advice is much appreciated.
Hadn't considered vertical drying against a wall, as I assumed the print would need airflow to dry evenly, so I have a couple of 6 ft x 4 ft bug screens on blocks on the floor. What do you do with the prints that have not been hypo cleared? Wash, I assume, but why hang them before they are fully washed? Toning stage?
I'll keep you guys in touch with my progress.

[Daniel Stone]

you can always string up your prints on a clothesline, then put a piece of pvc pipe on the bottom area of the paper(rebate area, outside of image's area, which would be trimmed off anyhow), clamped to the paper. This will weight the end of the paper down, and hanging the prints won't take up much area...

[matthew klos]

As frotog has talked mentioned, I work at palm press and have made many murals, had to handle them and mount them. Rolling is the best way, requires little space, and little chemistry.

[matthew klos]

Vertical drying is how we do it, set up a humidifier Infront of the print to allow it to dry slower. We have a hanging system that we raise up tack the print with metal tacks, and we weight the bottom. Take a paper towel and very gently wipe the print down. To get rid of any water just sitting on the surface. If you have the ability too aligning the enlarger is key to getting edge to edge sharpness. Align the negative plane, lens, and base on which your paper is sitting on.

[Drew Wiley]

A big sheet of 3/4" thick white melamine-coated MDF board makes an excellent oversized squeegee board. The wet paper tend to stick to it. Just make sure the
edges are sealed, where water can penetrate. If the print is too big to manage without creasing, it can be clipped to a long aluminum bar along its length using
all-plastic "chip clips". This in turn can be very easily balanced by suspending it from above with a low-tension "tool balancer" pulley device. I dry oversize prints on
fiberglass patio screen doors - the removable type in strong aluminum frames, maybe because I get them free.