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brucep
5-Aug-2014, 00:17
I'm just getting all the bits together and hope to be pouring my first carbon tissues later this week when the ink arrives. I've ordered a bottle of Pebeo graphic india ink, but I've found only one reference to it in glop which says it doesn't work.

Is some India ink different from others, meaning some work and some dont? and if it doesn't work, what happens?

Is tattoo parlour ink a good option?

Regards
Bruce

UlbabraB
5-Aug-2014, 02:14
I'm a newbie too in this process and in my tests I tried Sennelier Ink and Winsor & Newton Ink (both readily available in Europe) and I had good results only with the latter.

With Sennelier ink I got streaks in the tissue, confirmed later by another carbon printer in Italy. They might be caused by the shellac contained in the ink. Sennelier ink also required a lot more of mixing and filtering due to the particles dispersed in the ink.

W&N went straight without particular issues.

evan clarke
5-Aug-2014, 03:16
Try Black Cat from Blick..Purest black ink around. A friend who is a prolific carbon printer uses it and I use it on pool cues to make them jet, piano black..

Jim Fitzgerald
5-Aug-2014, 06:26
I use the Black Cat as well. It is my main ink. Filtering any ink is a good habit to get into. Start with this ink and get to know carbon printing and then look for other inks to adjust your special tone. Good luck and have fun!

brucep
5-Aug-2014, 09:41
What are you using to filter the ink? Coffee filter, lab filter paper or milipore filter, or something completely different?

Does anyone know if Blick will ship to the UK, or any supplier of black cat ink in Europe

Thanks
Bruce

Jim Fitzgerald
5-Aug-2014, 10:23
Bruce, I use some old cheesecloth to filter. As far as where to get the ink in Europe I don't know.

Andrew O'Neill
5-Aug-2014, 16:06
I have used several different brands of India Ink and all worked fine. One had streaks so I avoided that brand. Be sure that there is no sludge at the bottom. Give the ink a vigorous shake. I use an old pair of underwear to filter.

sanking
6-Aug-2014, 07:23
I have used several different brands of India Ink and all worked fine. One had streaks so I avoided that brand. Be sure that there is no sludge at the bottom. Give the ink a vigorous shake. I use an old pair of underwear to filter.

Watch your step! I have a patent on the use of old underwear to filter pigmented gelatin.

Sandy

Andrew O'Neill
6-Aug-2014, 09:06
I think I'm safe as long as I continue using my underwear and not yours...;)

brucep
6-Aug-2014, 09:36
Looks like I need to watch the for sale forum for old underwear specifically designed for glop filtering without the streaks.

bob carnie
6-Aug-2014, 09:50
Sandy stopped wearing underwear a few years back... He called it freedom 65


I think I'm safe as long as I continue using my underwear and not yours...;)

Vaughn
6-Aug-2014, 14:24
Looks like I need to watch the for sale forum for old underwear specifically designed for glop filtering without the streaks.

Yes...definitely avoid used underwear with streaks...

Does the Black Cat have a warm-black?

evan clarke
6-Aug-2014, 15:38
It's pure black

Jim Fitzgerald
6-Aug-2014, 15:57
I've always felt that the Black Cat was a warm black.

Max Hao
6-Aug-2014, 17:44
Greetings to SOOT printers! My prints all lack tonal separation in the dark areas, ie zone IV to zone II. I tried variation of AD%, tried different negatives! but still didn't get what I wanted. Any clues? Cheers.

Jim Fitzgerald
6-Aug-2014, 18:46
Max, what pigment are you using? I can make a pigment blend that is very flat with not much black or dark tones. Give us some more info. Many great printers here. How many grams of pigment per liter, type of pigment can determine a lot as can the negative that you use and the density range. You have to find the balance. So give us some more info. Exposure and type of exposure unit..... the list can go on.

Max Hao
6-Aug-2014, 21:19
Max, what pigment are you using? I can make a pigment blend that is very flat with not much black or dark tones. Give us some more info. Many great printers here. How many grams of pigment per liter, type of pigment can determine a lot as can the negative that you use and the density range. You have to find the balance. So give us some more info. Exposure and type of exposure unit..... the list can go on.

Jim, I use the commercial liquid ink for Chinese brush writing (calligraphy), 12grams per liter. My exposure unit is vacuum printer with 8 lamps set apart 2.5 inches. The lamps are 16 inches long. I expose only for 3 minutes, any longer will over expose. My other question is the percentage of AD. Would 5ml water solution AD at 4% mixed with 5ml iso alcohol make 10ml AD at 2%? Or the iso alcohol doesn't count? Sorry for the very rudimentary questions.

Jim Fitzgerald
7-Aug-2014, 05:31
Max, questions are how we learn. I mix my AD solutions from 1 1/2% up to 12%. I then dilute 1:1 with acetone. So 2% is 2% etc. At least this works for me. Do you have a densitometer? How powerful or more importantly what is the wave length of the bulbs? 3 minutes seems short, hence the flat images. How thick are your tissues? I pour a tissue that is 10x12 with up to 150ml of glop. My normal exposures on my NuArc 26 1ks are about 8-12 minutes. There are a lot of variables to deal with and hence a lot of questions.

Max Hao
7-Aug-2014, 07:50
Thanks Jim. I figured my tissue had too much pigment. Today I poured another batch using only 8grams per liter. My tissue is 2mm thick wet. The exposure unit I use is a burner for screen printing, and should have UV light source. As I changed the tissue ingredient there will be a whole lot to explore. Will share in three days. That's how long it takes to dry tissues in summer time in the place I live. My densitometer is a used one designed for screen printing, and should give right readings. My negatives typically have a DR 1.7, even greater in the case of X-ray film. Anyway, I only picked up printing again a couple weeks ago. Only experimented a few batches two years ago.

Andrew O'Neill
7-Aug-2014, 08:21
12 grams of calligraphy ink per litre is not a lot of ink. i use 16g. How do the densities look in the negative's shadows? A 3 minute exposure and your shadows are black already... Maybe you need to give your film more exposure?

Max Hao
7-Aug-2014, 19:05
12 grams of calligraphy ink per litre is not a lot of ink. i use 16g. How do the densities look in the negative's shadows? A 3 minute exposure and your shadows are black already... Maybe you need to give your film more exposure?
Thanks Andrew. I just started using in camera negatives, having got my first 8x10 camera. Will try over exposure and more development.
But my digital negatives did have a max density of around 2.0.

Max Hao
14-Aug-2014, 09:01
To follow up. I must have done sth. wrong in my previous prints. Now my exposure time is around 6 minutes. One more question, it takes more than 40 minutes to wash away the ink and show some image during final developing. Is it because my tissue is too strong, 12% gelatin?

sanking
14-Aug-2014, 12:43
To follow up. I must have done sth. wrong in my previous prints. Now my exposure time is around 6 minutes. One more question, it takes more than 40 minutes to wash away the ink and show some image during final developing. Is it because my tissue is too strong, 12% gelatin?

If you are coating tissue to a wet height of 2 mm with a 12% gelatin solution I would expect several operations to take longer than with a more main-stream type tissue. Your soak times in mating would be longer, and your development times should also be longer. By comparison, here is my work flow.

1. Tissue is made with a 10% gelatin solution, 40 grams of sugar per liter, and 16 grams of Black Cat india ink. Tissue is coated to a wet height of 0.9 mm.

2. To mate, tissue is first soaked in water at 65F - 70F for three minutes, then mated to the final support.

3. Development is in water at about 105 F. Tissue is stripped from the final support at three minutes, then allowed to develop for another 12 minutes, floating.

You could learn a lot if by testing with a 21 step wedge where each step is about log 0.15 in density. It takes more patience to work with step wedges, but you can learn more in two hours with a step wedge than in six months with a negative of unknown density and contrast.

Sandy

Andrew O'Neill
14-Aug-2014, 12:56
12% gelatin tissue is not necessary, in my opinion. I tried it once and had to make too many adjustments in the process and there is lot more tension on the paper between the dark areas and light areas, pulling on each other. I prefer to work with 9 and 10% tissues.
Sandy's recommendation to use a step wedge is sound.
I've taken a break from carbon printing for the past couple of months as it's just too damn hot here! Looking forward to Autumn! In the meantime, I've been printing a lot of Kallitypes.

Max Hao
14-Aug-2014, 17:14
If you are coating tissue to a wet height of 2 mm with a 12% gelatin solution I would expect several operations to take longer than with a more main-stream type tissue. Your soak times in mating would be longer, and your development times should also be longer. By comparison, here is my work flow.

1. Tissue is made with a 10% gelatin solution, 40 grams of sugar per liter, and 16 grams of Black Cat india ink. Tissue is coated to a wet height of 0.9 mm.

2. To mate, tissue is first soaked in water at 65F - 70F for three minutes, then mated to the final support.

3. Development is in water at about 105 F. Tissue is stripped from the final support at three minutes, then allowed to develop for another 12 minutes, floating.

You could learn a lot if by testing with a 21 step wedge where each step is about log 0.15 in density. It takes more patience to work with step wedges, but you can learn more in two hours with a step wedge than in six months with a negative of unknown density and contrast.

Sandy
Many thanks Sandy. I actually studied your writing on coating tissue, and mentioned your name whenever I discuss carbon printing with friends. I moved to 12% gelatin when I suspected I bought a weak gelatin lower than 180 bloom. Will experiment with a lower gelatin.
Cheers.
Max

Max Hao
14-Aug-2014, 17:19
12% gelatin tissue is not necessary, in my opinion. I tried it once and had to make too many adjustments in the process and there is lot more tension on the paper between the dark areas and light areas, pulling on each other. I prefer to work with 9 and 10% tissues.
Sandy's recommendation to use a step wedge is sound.
I've taken a break from carbon printing for the past couple of months as it's just too damn hot here! Looking forward to Autumn! In the meantime, I've been printing a lot of Kallitypes.
Thanks Andrew. Very insightful! My room temperature is around 29 C, and I poured the last batch under heavy air-con. I got a cold right away :(. But, excited to pick up carbon!

sanking
15-Aug-2014, 06:41
Max,

Well, I did not understand that you were using a gelatin of Bloom lower than 180. If that is the case, a 12% solution should be OK, especially if it is warm where you work. But the very thick coating is more difficult to work with than a thinner coating.

Sandy

Max Hao
18-Aug-2014, 06:51
Max,

Well, I did not understand that you were using a gelatin of Bloom lower than 180. If that is the case, a 12% solution should be OK, especially if it is warm where you work. But the very thick coating is more difficult to work with than a thinner coating.
Sandy

Sandy,
I poured another batch using 10% gelatin and tested a couple of prints. Development time is considerably shorter, 15 minutes. My prints were a bit on the dark side lacking highlight. I'll shorten exposure to about 480 seconds, and use a weaker AD. My negative DR was 1.5.