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View Full Version : Great image of a guy up a phonepole with a 5X7 Top Handle Speedy on Shorpy today...



Jim Galli
19-Jun-2014, 10:19
http://www.shorpy.com/node/17880?size=_original#caption

Our current world is run by a generation of total life experience in front of Xbox with a joystick that thinks going out of the house is unsafe. I love seeing stuff like this (and have done my share of heroic foolishness) ((and survived)).

jbenedict
19-Jun-2014, 10:24
No hardhat, no belt, no boots, no cleats...

Sure would like one of those top handle 5x7 Speeds. If I can't find one, I might have to make one. Don't know where I would find a 5x7 FP shutter so it might have to be a "Crown Graphic".

dasBlute
19-Jun-2014, 10:53
thanks so much for sharing this, would love to see the image he took!
poles are tough enough to climb with both hands!

Randy Moe
19-Jun-2014, 11:04
and wearing Spectator shoes.

There are climping stakes on that pole.

Great image!

EdSawyer
20-Jun-2014, 11:37
I am the one that posted the comment about it being a 5x7 speed. ;-)

Randy Moe
20-Jun-2014, 12:45
I have never played a video game since I realized Pac Man was hard on my eyes. Decided right then to never play computer games.

I vastly prefer being outside and worked outside much of my life.

In the 50's Mom would tell us to go out and not come back till dinner, In Minnesota in any weather.

We had lot's of fun.


http://www.shorpy.com/node/17880?size=_original#caption

Our current world is run by a generation of total life experience in front of Xbox with a joystick that thinks going out of the house is unsafe. I love seeing stuff like this (and have done my share of heroic foolishness) ((and survived)).

Jim Galli
20-Jun-2014, 12:48
I have never played a video game since I realized Pac Man was hard on my eyes. Decided right then to never play computer games.

I vastly prefer being outside and worked outside much of my life.

In the 50's Mom would tell us to go out and not come back till dinner, In Minnesota in any weather.

We had lot's of fun.

That was my mom's method too, as it should be any good mom's. Go outside and play. She cured us of whining 'i don't have anything to do!' She would grab some clippers and proceed to trim everything in the yard and make us spend the rest of the day cleaning it all up! I don't know what's up with mom's these days. It isn't rocket science.

Randy Moe
20-Jun-2014, 12:58
And when we 3 boys fought, we were told to go out and do it in the backyard, Mom would watch, but she never stopped a fight. We would fight til we dropped. I am the runt and I never give up.

Dad was at work.



That was my mom's method too, as it should be any good mom's. Go outside and play. She cured us of whining 'i don't have anything to do!' She would grab some clippers and proceed to trim everything in the yard and make us spend the rest of the day cleaning it all up! I don't know what's up with mom's these days. It isn't rocket science.

Jac@stafford.net
20-Jun-2014, 13:37
I don't know what's up with mom's these days.

It is disconcerting because those moms are our children.

My mother was a maker, a doer, old-school. She started jogging when she was seventy years-old. That was twenty years ago. We don't know where the hell she is now.
.

Randy Moe
20-Jun-2014, 13:46
I am very proud to say my step-daughter, her husband and their 2 teenage boys, are campers, mountain climbers and runners. My daughter also controls the video games and TV watching. The boys are very polite teenagers.

I think they are all exceptional, but of course I would.

Her husband is suspiciously like me...


It is disconcerting because those moms are our children.

My mother was a maker, a doer, old-school. She started jogging when she was seventy years-old. That was twenty years ago. We don't know where the hell she is now.
.

ROL
20-Jun-2014, 15:07
She started jogging when she was seventy years-old. That was twenty years ago. We don't know where the hell she is now.
.

Simple: 20 x 365 x miles/day. Draw arc of probability given initial direction. :)

Jac@stafford.net
20-Jun-2014, 15:35
Simple: 20 x 365 x miles/day. Draw arc of probability given initial direction. :)

I did that as well as a parametric and it appears she is in the arc of missing flight 370. Mom was not 100% sweet and light.
.

ROL
20-Jun-2014, 15:55
Exactly where I was going with that i.e., the missing flight, not the sweet & light. :o

jbenedict
20-Jun-2014, 18:31
I am very proud to say my step-daughter, her husband and their 2 teenage boys, are campers, mountain climbers and runners. My daughter also controls the video games and TV watching. The boys are very polite teenagers.

I think they are all exceptional, but of course I would.

Her husband is suspiciously like me...

You done learned her GOOD.

Dan Fromm
21-Jun-2014, 06:35
No hardhat, no belt, no boots, no cleats...

Sure would like one of those top handle 5x7 Speeds. If I can't find one, I might have to make one. Don't know where I would find a 5x7 FP shutter so it might have to be a "Crown Graphic".

Several years ago I and many other AT&T managers classified as management were trained very badly as telephone installers in anticipation of a strike that fortunately didn't happen. I went to Southwest Bell climbing school, took the accelerated course. No belt is a very bad idea indeed. Cleats aren't needed on stepped poles.

There's a story, possibly true, that a few weeks after I went to Austin at vast expense an unfortunate trainee fell off a pole and was badly hurt. True or not, climbing school was cancelled for those who hadn't taken it yet.

jbenedict
21-Jun-2014, 07:22
Several years ago I and many other AT&T managers classified as management were trained very badly as telephone installers in anticipation of a strike that fortunately didn't happen. I went to Southwest Bell climbing school, took the accelerated course. No belt is a very bad idea indeed. Cleats aren't needed on stepped poles.

There's a story, possibly true, that a few weeks after I went to Austin at vast expense an unfortunate trainee fell off a pole and was badly hurt. True or not, climbing school was cancelled for those who hadn't taken it yet.


There were many new houses being built in the community where I lived as a kid in the early 60s. The gray-drab trucks of Pacific NW Bell made almost weekly visits somewhere near my house. For an 8 year old, watching the crews was fascinating. As I remember it up here in Washington State, the steps began 12-15' above the ground so the crews had to use cleats to get from the ground to the steps. Agree very much that the lack of a climbing belt was a very bad idea.

David Lobato
21-Jun-2014, 08:18
About 45 years ago I saw a lineman climb a pole with the belt (which was fascinating to watch). He only went maybe 8 feet up and lost his grip and slid down. The skin all along his arm was badly scraped off by the creosoted pole and it was pretty gross. It still makes my skin crawl at the thought of it, and I can take quite a bit after several years in EMS.

Jac@stafford.net
21-Jun-2014, 11:40
As a kid in the fifties, we were discouraged by the steps first being too high to reach, and then when we managed to stand on boxes to get on, the steps were too far apart. "You must be this tall to climb this pole" :)

In retrospect it was a good thing. Instead we fell out of trees.
.

Jerry Bodine
21-Jun-2014, 15:14
About belts:
When I bought my house in '79, there was a group of large (18" diameter at the base) alders that were endangering my neighbors' house (one had already fallen onto their roof during the one month between the day of the sale and when I actually moved in). So I called in the pro's to take some of them down. Of course, they used spikes and belts to climb them and take them down with multiple cuts starting near the top. The group lead was talking to me as they worked, telling me how unpredictable alders were, when one of the cutters near the top started a cut and the tree split down the middle, the other half falling away. The belt pulled his chest up against the remaining half and nearly crushed him. He came down and tried to walk, but his rubber legs wouldn't hear of it. The lead said that's called a "barber-pole" (don't know how that's related), so it happens frequently enough that it was given a name.

Kirk Gittings
21-Jun-2014, 18:37
http://www.shorpy.com/node/17880?size=_original#caption

Our current world is run by a generation of total life experience in front of Xbox with a joystick that thinks going out of the house is unsafe. I love seeing stuff like this (and have done my share of heroic foolishness) ((and survived)).

Boy not in my family. The kids were into video games but that was a welcome respite from the extreme sports they all attempted putting their lives in danger and nearly giving me a heart attack on numerous occasions for years.

Alan Gales
21-Jun-2014, 19:45
Video games get a bad rap. There is nothing wrong with playing as long as it's in moderation and appropriate for the child's age. You don't buy a six year old Grand Theft Auto. Parents need to be parents and control what and how much their children play.

My daughter has always played video games and in fact we were Halo buddies. I knew what she was playing and never worried about it. She was very active in school activities, sports, pottery, and Girl Scouts. She could swim, ice skate, ride a bike, and throw the nastiest drop curve you ever saw.

civich
22-Jun-2014, 05:26
No hardhat, no belt, no boots, no cleats...

In these parts the climbing "cleats" are called "gavs" ... as are the razors fastened to the legs of fighting cocks. The last time I saw climbing stakes going up a power pole had to have been in the 70's - bucket trucks have supplanted them and the gavs for the most part. -Chris

John Kasaian
22-Jun-2014, 08:12
5x7 Speeders rock! 5x7 Speeders in places where Deardorffs can't get to rock all the more. That guy in the photo is my new hero:cool:

Andrew O'Neill
22-Jun-2014, 10:36
thanks so much for sharing this, would love to see the image he took!

Maybe it was this one (Library of Congress)? :)

BradS
22-Jun-2014, 12:27
In the 50's Mom would tell us to go out and not come back till dinner, In Minnesota in any weather.
We had lot's of fun.

My mom did the same in the 1970's...also in Minnesota. There was hell to pay if we were not washed and ready to eat when she set dinner on the table though .

Andrew O'Neill
22-Jun-2014, 20:11
Same for me and neighbourhood kids in the 70's in Saskatoon.

Randy Moe
22-Jun-2014, 20:30
We always ate a hot dinner together, without TV or music. I would try to read a book. I usually rose at 4 am so I could read peacefully with the dog, next to the heat.

Yes and do not be late to dinner. Learned to eat fast, if I wanted enough.


My mom did the same in the 1970's...also in Minnesota. There was hell to pay if we were not washed and ready to eat when she set dinner on the table though .

Corran
23-Jun-2014, 13:08
It disappoints me to see such gross generalizations of my generation. Well okay I'm almost 29 but let's be honest, there's a number of guys posting on the forums here who could be my grandfather.

But seriously - it's not a "generational" thing. I grew up playing video games as well as tumbling around outside with friends, and doing all kinds of crazy things (still do). Things haven't changed as much as some would like to believe. There's also a lot of differences in parenting and upbringing.

al olson
23-Jun-2014, 15:38
It disappoints me to see such gross generalizations of my generation. Well okay I'm almost 29 but let's be honest, there's a number of guys posting on the forums here who could be my grandfather.

. . .


... or great grandfather :)

John Kasaian
23-Jun-2014, 15:52
...or fossils, sonny!:rolleyes:

Randy Moe
23-Jun-2014, 16:05
Actually we are NOT criticizing you but many of our own children, who may have raised people your age. I'm 63 and my grandchildren are 11 and 14.

We spoiled your parents or not.

Depends (pun?) on your point of view.

It's all Genghis Khan's fault and many of us are related to him.




It disappoints me to see such gross generalizations of my generation. Well okay I'm almost 29 but let's be honest, there's a number of guys posting on the forums here who could be my grandfather.

But seriously - it's not a "generational" thing. I grew up playing video games as well as tumbling around outside with friends, and doing all kinds of crazy things (still do). Things haven't changed as much as some would like to believe. There's also a lot of differences in parenting and upbringing.

Alan Gales
23-Jun-2014, 17:29
It disappoints me to see such gross generalizations of my generation. Well okay I'm almost 29 but let's be honest, there's a number of guys posting on the forums here who could be my grandfather.

But seriously - it's not a "generational" thing. I grew up playing video games as well as tumbling around outside with friends, and doing all kinds of crazy things (still do). Things haven't changed as much as some would like to believe. There's also a lot of differences in parenting and upbringing.

Don't worry about it, Corran. I'm 52 and the older generation talked about my generation too. I don't know what you do for a living but in the building trades they call you kid until you are 30. After you turn 30 you slowly start earning respect! ;)

Corran
23-Jun-2014, 18:30
Well I work at a university so I'm seeing the current generation filtering through. It can be easy to say Kids these days! Whipper-snappers can't even function without their cell phone! or whatever so I get where some folks are coming from. I consciously try to avoid generalizations. I'm one of the youngest admin. staff on campus and so it's nothing new to hear generalizations about video games and whatever else! Not to mention the media vilifying them daily.

Alan Gales
23-Jun-2014, 19:08
I've got a 19 year old daughter. Young people have it hard today. When I was young if you went to college you got a job when you graduated. Now the graduates are saddled with debt and no job prospects. You could try to go into the trades like I did but with this economy they have so many laid off that they are not hiring. Don't even get me started about the lack of factory jobs due to U.S. companies opening factories over seas.

Yeah, it's easy to make fun of kids today but it was when I was young too. My Dad hated my long hair and love of muscle cars. He used to tell me that I just loved giving my money to the police (speeding tickets). ;)

jbenedict
24-Jun-2014, 08:50
Well I work at a university so I'm seeing the current generation filtering through. It can be easy to say Kids these days! Whipper-snappers can't even function without their cell phone! or whatever so I get where some folks are coming from. I consciously try to avoid generalizations. I'm one of the youngest admin. staff on campus and so it's nothing new to hear generalizations about video games and whatever else! Not to mention the media vilifying them daily.

I recently went to an Engineering Fair at the U of Washington. I had a fantastic time talking to these kids- both boys and girls- about their projects, asking them questions, debating concepts and giving them praise for what they were doing. I talked about the details of one of the group projects for about 45 min. and I helped them solve a problem that they had been having with their device. They were open and accepting of an old geezer and realized that sometimes an old set of eyes can be very useful. It was great fun. One of the groups had a wi-fi powered (powered!) device that was about the size of the nail on your index finger and had an antenna about the size of a cocktail swizzle stick. The kid said it had 16K of memory to use and I said, "Wow! Back in the old days, that was considered a lot of RAM! You can do a lot with that!" The kid chuckled and agreed they really had a lot to work with.. At the time, the computer only was powering an LED because they were working out the "powered by wi-fi" thing but they had a lot of plans.

Anyone who complains about the youth of today needs to get out there and have something to do with the ones who have some gumption and 'get up and go' in them. You might be surprised and hopeful about our future.

Corran
24-Jun-2014, 09:08
I agree!!!

Jim Galli
24-Jun-2014, 09:19
Yes, guilty of making blanket statements that are only partially the case. Mia Culpa. My problem is where I work (your tax dollars) the pendulum has swung so far to the rediculous when it comes to taking any risk, it turns my stomach. I blame the current crop of Xbox babies that I have to work for. I have to have a full harness on to get over 4 feet off the ground. Idiocy.

Corran
24-Jun-2014, 09:35
A few months ago I needed to get a projector down that was hanging from the catwalk in our auditorium, about 25ft. in the air. I erected some 6ft. risers and then perched a 15ft. ladder on top of those, and still had to reach over my head to get the screws out of the mount. When the last screw came out I almost dropped that projector. Fairly unsafe! Anyway, when the Dean (who's much older, obviously) heard about it he pitched a fit about OSHA standards and such and said we needed to get safety harnesses for that kind of work. I just needed to get it done. I think the threat of lawsuits, workers comp, and all that jazz is the real culprit. Speaking of OSHA, one of our facilities here got fined $25,000 because there was some audio cables running on a catwalk that were not in proper cable troughs!

Jac@stafford.net
24-Jun-2014, 10:11
[... snip most heartening post ...] The kid said it had 16K of memory to use and I said, "Wow! Back in the old days, that was considered a lot of RAM! You can do a lot with that!" The kid chuckled and agreed they really had a lot to work with.

We did do a lot with 16K! Remind them to use signed integers. :) WiFi powered? I'll probably spend the rest of today looking into that. Smart kids!

Randy Moe
24-Jun-2014, 10:21
WIFI powered, shades of Tesla's dream of wireless electric power transmission.

We do have a lot of free electromagnetic wave power all around us.

Woo Hoo!


I recently went to an Engineering Fair at the U of Washington. I had a fantastic time talking to these kids- both boys and girls- about their projects, asking them questions, debating concepts and giving them praise for what they were doing. I talked about the details of one of the group projects for about 45 min. and I helped them solve a problem that they had been having with their device. They were open and accepting of an old geezer and realized that sometimes an old set of eyes can be very useful. It was great fun. One of the groups had a wi-fi powered (powered!) device that was about the size of the nail on your index finger and had an antenna about the size of a cocktail swizzle stick. The kid said it had 16K of memory to use and I said, "Wow! Back in the old days, that was considered a lot of RAM! You can do a lot with that!" The kid chuckled and agreed they really had a lot to work with.. At the time, the computer only was powering an LED because they were working out the "powered by wi-fi" thing but they had a lot of plans.

Anyone who complains about the youth of today needs to get out there and have something to do with the ones who have some gumption and 'get up and go' in them. You might be surprised and hopeful about our future.

Randy Moe
24-Jun-2014, 10:29
Don't ever do that again! They should have written you up with disciplinary action.

The projector also needed it's own safety cable. 'I just needed to get it done.' is no excuse.

I have seen too many industrial accidents, as a 30 year member of my factory's emergency response team. Fire, blood, poisoning, dismemberment and death, all too easy...


A few months ago I needed to get a projector down that was hanging from the catwalk in our auditorium, about 25ft. in the air. I erected some 6ft. risers and then perched a 15ft. ladder on top of those, and still had to reach over my head to get the screws out of the mount. When the last screw came out I almost dropped that projector. Fairly unsafe! Anyway, when the Dean (who's much older, obviously) heard about it he pitched a fit about OSHA standards and such and said we needed to get safety harnesses for that kind of work. I just needed to get it done. I think the threat of lawsuits, workers comp, and all that jazz is the real culprit. Speaking of OSHA, one of our facilities here got fined $25,000 because there was some audio cables running on a catwalk that were not in proper cable troughs!

Corran
24-Jun-2014, 10:49
I probably make it sound worse than it was. But regardless they do want us in safety harnesses in those situations, and rightly so - BUT they refuse to buy them with our operating budget!

We are installing a new projector that is 12,000 lumens that is about 80 pounds with lens/mount and yes, you better believe safety cables are mandatory and being installed, once the logistics are figured out. We are renting a Genie lift for install this time though!

Jerry Bodine
24-Jun-2014, 13:17
...safety cables are mandatory and being installed, once the logistics are figured out...

I assume the "logistics" mean ensuring that the overhead structure is capable of supporting the energy of the falling masses.

BTW, some of the geezers here may be wondering "What's a WiFi?" :D :D :D

Corran
24-Jun-2014, 13:24
No I meant the connection to the actual projector. The lift handles on this projector seem rigid but 80 pounds free-falling in the case of a catastrophic failure of the mount is quite a lot of stress. There isn't a designed connection point so I need to call the company to see if the handle was designed for that.

The mount is being custom designed and built in-house. The safety cables will connect to the physical catwalk which is anchored to the structure of the building.

The lens on this thing, wow, it could probably be called "large format." It's bigger than any of my lenses for 4x5 / 8x10!

Jerry Bodine
24-Jun-2014, 13:38
No I meant the connection to the actual projector. The lift handles on this projector seem rigid but 80 pounds free-falling in the case of a catastrophic failure of the mount is quite a lot of stress. There isn't a designed connection point so I need to call the company to see if the handle was designed for that.

The mount is being custom designed and built in-house. The safety cables will connect to the physical catwalk which is anchored to the structure of the building.

The lens on this thing, wow, it could probably be called "large format." It's bigger than any of my lenses for 4x5 / 8x10!

I was thinking more of the structure that would need to support a falling worker in a harness, not just the projector.

Jac@stafford.net
24-Jun-2014, 13:51
BTW, some of the geezers here may be wondering "What's a WiFi?" :D :D :D

Not me. I installed the Internet for my town before the so-called Web existed. 1989. Wasn't much for the public to grasp at the time, then came NCSA Mosiac with FTP & telnet, all fitting on a little floppy. In 1986 I was working with AppleTalk, Bitnet, UUCP, Usenet. In the Seventies it was DECNET. It's all old news.

Alan Gales
24-Jun-2014, 15:35
Yes, guilty of making blanket statements that are only partially the case. Mia Culpa. My problem is where I work (your tax dollars) the pendulum has swung so far to the rediculous when it comes to taking any risk, it turns my stomach. I blame the current crop of Xbox babies that I have to work for. I have to have a full harness on to get over 4 feet off the ground. Idiocy.

Sometimes it's silly and sometimes it's not. I have worn hard hats outside where only the birds could drop on my head.

Sometimes sh*t just happens. A buddy of mine when he was an Apprentice was working with a Jouneyman Tinner. The fellow was on a step ladder over steps with his feet only 3 feet above the ground. Somehow he lost his balance and fell backwards and hit his head on the concrete steps. The blow killed him.

Play it safe, Jim. We wouldn't want to lose you!

Dan Fromm
24-Jun-2014, 17:14
Yes, guilty of making blanket statements that are only partially the case. Mia Culpa. My problem is where I work (your tax dollars) the pendulum has swung so far to the rediculous when it comes to taking any risk, it turns my stomach. I blame the current crop of Xbox babies that I have to work for. I have to have a full harness on to get over 4 feet off the ground. Idiocy.

Jim, I spent the summers of '60, '61 and '62 working in a university physics lab. I shudder at the stupidly risky things the grad students did and that I did m'self. Uninsulated conductors carrying 5kv stretched across a room. I remember cleaning proton sources with HF. I must have been even stupider and crazier than I am now. There was a non-physics lab on the top floor with people studying hip dysplasia in dogs. They took auto-radiographs, had a radiochem lab. A very sloppy radiochem lab, with many spills.

Neither of us likes it but on the whole fairly stringent and enforced safety regs are needed. You just can't trust highly motivated researchers to behave sensibly and take proper care of themselves.

Cheers,

Dan

Randy Moe
24-Jun-2014, 18:03
I'll second that. I caught an Engineer trying to move a 3000 lb hydraulic press with a automotive cherry picker. Lucky for him I looked in a small window and saw he was in deep shit. I chased him out and it took me hours to reverse what little he had done and get the cherry picker out of there. It was million dollar MTS test machine, and fortunately he and the machine were undamaged.

I should have wrote him up, but he would have lost his job. I did get him to promise to stop the bonehead moves.

Mechanical engineer. LOL snort!

John Kasaian
1-Jul-2014, 06:37
What is generational skepticism and what is next generational incompetence? I'd say it's 50/50.
Some young people are truly inspiring. Some old timers are full of wisdom. Then there are those young and old who make me wonder how they can ever feed themselves or balance a check book.
Maybe its always been like that, but I don't remember it so.

Dan Fromm
1-Jul-2014, 06:50
John, I paid attention to what my father used to say about the younger generation and what I've said about them. Age for age, I've been tempted to say exactly what he did. But I don't, because I remember being young and ignorant.

My father's comments about the kids, and the ones I'm tempted to make and try not to, reflect age and experience looking at youth and inexperience. We're all born ignorant and with no experience at all, learn and gain experience as we get older. Its unfair to expect kids to know what we old folks have learned since we were kids ourselves.

ImSoNegative
2-Jul-2014, 06:28
That was my mom's method too, as it should be any good mom's. Go outside and play. She cured us of whining 'i don't have anything to do!' She would grab some clippers and proceed to trim everything in the yard and make us spend the rest of the day cleaning it all up! I don't know what's up with mom's these days. It isn't rocket science.


haha I learned real quick never to whine to my dad "dad there is nothing to do" if i did he would usually find a ditch that needed to be cleaned out, ahh the memories :)

ROL
2-Jul-2014, 09:21
Well! This thread certainly turned out to have legs, arthritic though they may be. :D

Jim Galli
2-Jul-2014, 10:03
Well! This thread certainly turned out to have legs, arthritic though they may be. :D

It's not the arthritis doctor, it's the splinters that are killing me.

Jac@stafford.net
2-Jul-2014, 16:43
It's not the arthritis doctor, it's the splinters that are killing me.

Whew! That went over my head.

--
Jac - both hands crippled.

jbenedict
2-Jul-2014, 21:35
Look back five pages to the post about the Bell guy who slipped and slid down the pole, safety belt intact and rubbed his forearms on the pole all the way down...

"Anyone have some tweezers?"

Dan Fromm
3-Jul-2014, 06:12
Whew! That went over my head.

--
Jac - both hands crippled.Jac, one of my classmates in climbing school was a second generation Bell System employee. Her father was a lineman, once slid down an unstepped pole (accident), held close to it by his climbing belt. He ended up with a chest full of large nasty splinters, needed several surgeries and suffered considerably. Let's not joke about splinters.

Alan Gales
3-Jul-2014, 09:47
I've had wooden splinters and plenty of metal splinters doing sheet metal work. I always carried tweezers in my tool box.


Splinters I like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnI6W3l_1Oo

Jac@stafford.net
3-Jul-2014, 10:38
needed several surgeries and suffered considerably. Let's not joke about splinters.

I would never joke about such a thing. My sympathies to the gentleman. Keep in mind that I've seen some terrible injuries as a medic in service, 1964-70. It is all bad with sympathies forever.
.