Taking ortho for granite...

[John Kasaian]

...sorry for the bad joke!:o
I like the way ortho film treats texture in architectural subjects like tiles, bricks, etc...so I was wondering how it would portray granite in nature?
Has anyone here shot granite with ortho film and if so, what are your thoughts? Do you have any advise to offer? Especially about continuous tone development over going for more contrast?

[Jim Noel]

Are you talking about ortho-lith film, or full scale ortho film? There is a big difference.

[Philippe Grunchec]

German photographer Ralf Sänger used the Rollei ortho and was very pleased!

[Drew Wiley]

There are all kinds of colors of granite. In our own front yard there was everything from the typical salt and pepper Sierra quartz monzonite to huge boulders of deep red extremely dense, hard granodiorite. The fireplace was made from the fine-grained ornamental granite from the Academy quarry, which my father bought out per scrap inventory during its brief bankrupty era. And I sure got sick of running that cement mixer! Last weekend I printed an 8x10 shot of an absolutely huge horizontal tombstone slab in an old military graveyard which has quite a range of large-grained granite hues. So I chose TMY for the shot, then nuanced the print itself with triple toning (rather subtly). This weekend I'm adding a holder of 8x10 ACROS to my arsenal; but it's a film I like quite a bit for natural high-country granite polish,etc. I see no advantage in ortho per se. ACROS is orthopan, so very easy to tweak further than direction if needed. Ortho-litho in about 80% blue-sensitive, and only about 20% green at most. In my pack there is also a deep blue 47 filter which simulates the look of olden blue-sensitive films - open shadows
and highly darkened greens and reds. I'm not trying to get an "old time" look with this at all, but something indeed different from the usual pan palette. So far, so
good. Litho film is just too thin and flimsy for me in camera.

[John Kasaian]

Are you talking about ortho-lith film, or full scale ortho film? There is a big difference.
I've only used APHS with paper developer diluted for continuous tone. What is the difference?

[John Kasaian]

There are all kinds of colors of granite. In our own front yard there was everything from the typical salt and pepper Sierra quartz monzonite to huge boulders of deep red extremely dense, hard granodiorite. The fireplace was made from the fine-grained ornamental granite from the Academy quarry, which my father bought out per scrap inventory during its brief bankrupty era. And I sure got sick of running that cement mixer! Last weekend I printed an 8x10 shot of an absolutely huge horizontal tombstone slab in an old military graveyard which has quite a range of large-grained granite hues. So I chose TMY for the shot, then nuanced the print itself with triple toning (rather subtly). This weekend I'm adding a holder of 8x10 ACROS to my arsenal; but it's a film I like quite a bit for natural high-country granite polish,etc. I see no advantage in ortho per se. ACROS is orthopan, so very easy to tweak further than direction if needed. Ortho-litho in about 80% blue-sensitive, and only about 20% green at most. In my pack there is also a deep blue 47 filter which simulates the look of olden blue-sensitive films - open shadows
and highly darkened greens and reds. I'm not trying to get an "old time" look with this at all, but something indeed different from the usual pan palette. So far, so
good. Litho film is just too thin and flimsy for me in camera.
Academy Quarry is out of business? What a shame. I'd think that black granite would be in demand with granite the countertops being all the rage these days. Our family plot tombstone is Academy as a nod to the Clovis side of the family, I guess.

[Vaughn]

...Especially about continuous tone development over going for more contrast?

I have used Kodak Copy Film, 8x10, on granite (the "typical salt and pepper Sierra quartz monzonite") -- for continous tone with lots of contrast (for carbon printing). I doubt many could tell the difference between it and panochromtic film...especially since usually there is no sky in the images. White granite and green trees, not much else in the way of color.

[Drew Wiley]

That must have been a spell back, Vaughn. I used some of that copy film for snow scenes. Nice shadows and good highlights. Otherwise, it was so long ago I
really didn't know what I was doing, and just tried all kinds of things. It's the trees and skies and water I get fussy about. Ortho is nice, but a deep green filter on a pan film will do that, and I've pretty much settled on ACROS as my backpacking film, esp in the high country. A true ortho effect can sometimes be a bit overdone and paste-like with light green foliage. The orthopan effect is more subtle and natural to me, esp with things like dwarf hemlocks or dwarf willows amidst the granite. But generally need something faster around here, with all our coastal wind. Redwoods, as you well know, change their personality constantly, depending on fog versus open sun. So in that case, I like films with a very long straight line, and with TMY I have enough speed to use deep filters, whether red, green, or blue. With Acros, anything stronger than an XO light yellow-green starts looking artificial, unless I'm trying to significant darken something like Navajo
sandstone in the desert. I've tried so many films in the mtns that I've become a bit nitpicky by now, and obviously don't want to carry too many kinds in a pack
that for some strange reason seems to be getting heavier and heavier year by year. Do they make freeze-dried film too?

[BetterSense]

Why use ortho film instead of just using a blue filter?

[Drew Wiley]

John - the Academy quarry was owned by the Raymond granite enterprise, which is up and running, and the granite is very similar in appearance. Up here a lot of it was used for both the Yerba Buena Gardens next to the MMA, and earlier, the big original B of A highrise downtown. The actual quarry pit in Academy was bought by my sister's best friend at that time, who married the head surgeon at one of your hospitals there, and they actually built their dream house right into the quarry, with a sixty foot tall granite living room wall! Sadly, she passed away from cancer only six months after completion of the project. Last time I checked, a second Academy quarry pit was back in operation. But I don't travel that road much anymore and usually scoot from here directly to SEKI trailheads, or else cut straight over from Madera to the San Joaquin or Merced drainages. Have some friends buried in that little Academy cemetery.

[Vaughn]

...Do they make freeze-dried film too?

Yeah, but it only develops in freeze-dried beer.

It took me quite a few sheets of the Copy Film to get the hang of it. Got some bullet-proof highlights (such as granite in the sun) along the way, and some negs that I'd have to print in silver gelatin to get a decent print. It disappeared about the time I was getting the hang of it. But I got some 4x5 and 8x10 negatives that are a joy to print in the carbon process. Played a little with the more recent Ilford Copy and Rollei's version. Good potential for getting results along the lines of Kodak Copy Film.

Scanned 4x5 carbon print
On Kodak Pro Copy Film 4125, ASA 25
A little moody -- Big Leaf Maple (Fall), Prairie Creek Redwoods State Park

[ROL]

Indeed, many take the Sierra for granite. :D

I lived a couple of miles from Academy for many years. I may have mentioned this before, but my wife has default instructions to bury me in the Academy Cemetery. I'll make sure she understands to keep me well away from the upper classes and nearer the Hoi polloi.

[Preston]

Hey John,

If you take ortho for granite, just be sure to be gneiss.

--P

[jbenedict]

I found this thread about Ilford Ortho and it comes up pretty positive for pictorial use:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?13170-Ilford-Ortho-or-44-pan

Do you guys have any experience with Ilford Ortho?

Jeff

[Philippe Grunchec]

Yes: a rather expensive one :)

[Jim Noel]

I've only used APHS with paper developer diluted for continuous tone. What is the difference?
There are a couple of main differences .
First full scale orthochromatic films are generally on a heavier base than lith films.
More importantly the emulsions are designed to record smooth full scale images with more standard developers like D-76 straight or one to one and Film speeds are considerably higher.
Until sometime around the beginning of WWII full scale ortho films were more common than panchromatic films. Verichrome preceded Verichrome Pan for example. Ilford Ortho film in my freezer has a film speed of 25. Efke Ortho was of similar speed. I believe Adox still makes Adox Ortho 25. My stash of Tri-X Ortho has run out.
My reason for keeping and using this film is the way they open up shadows because of their blue sensitivity.

Can I achieve similar negatives with Ortho Lith film? Yes very similar, but with much longer exposures and specially altered developers.

By the way, try diluted film developers rather than paper developers. Film developers are designed to produce less contrast. If you want proofof this, try developoing paper in film developer some time.

[Drew Wiley]

That gneiss advice is nice advice, Preston.

[jp]

Haven't used ortho film, but I'd bet it or a blue filter would enhance it quite a bit. Consider the color of lichen or artifacts on it as well. When I've used an orange filter, the granite texture smooths out and you've got a picture of a rock for the shape of the rock and it's shadow rather than the rocks ingredients.

My favorite places to go (the beach and the breakwater) seem to be mostly granite, so it ends up in many of my photos. This is mostly grayish/cream colored granite with sometimes a little pink in it.
I would say it's pretty close to photographing people with filters.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13759696@N02/10631716606/

Tmax 400 no filter:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13759696@N02/14172160666/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13759696@N02/14469330715/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13759696@N02/12529648944/
Orange filter:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13759696@N02/14176370168/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13759696@N02/14301629864/

Green or blue would probably enhance the look even more.

Here's no filter after the sun was down, so the sky was extra cool colored.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13759696@N02/10485877123/in/photostream/