Sinar C in the field?

[Greg Meier]

Hello everyone-

I am relatively new to the LF world, and have been using a light 4x5 monorail for about 6 months (toho). All of my work is in the street in Sao Paulo, Brazil. I bought the Toho after reading many posts in this forum. While I like it's weight and small size, I find myself wanting something much more rigid and exact, with at least some geared movements. As I do not hike in the mountains or walk for much more than a couple of miles, I could manage something a quite a bit heavier. It would have to be easy to set up and take down. I also want to stay with a monorail as I like having full movements on the rear standard.

I am looking for something from a major brand that has a modular system with lots of readily available used accessories.

I have read all the positive comments on the AS F line, but am concerned with the cost and availability of basic accessories. Sinar, in comparision, always has pages and pages of stuff avail on ebay and even in used stores in Brazil

So the other two options I am looking at, but do not know if they are realistic or practical would be a Sinar C or Norma. Does anyone have experience carrying around a Sinar C? Is it just too cumbersome?

What about the Norma? I have never used one, but it seems to have almost a cult following. My concern with the Norma would be with its age. Are they durable through the decades?

Both of these models receive lots of praise and are not so expensive as A-S and Linhof options.

Am I missing some other obvious choices?

Thanks so much for your comments and advice.

Greg

[steve simmons]

I used a C for many years as an architectural photographer and oved it I am not sure I would have made the same choice for street photography.

You miht think about a folding camera type unless you need the extra movements of a monorail camera.

steve simmons

[Richard Wasserman]

Greg, I use a 4x5 Norma for work that sounds similar to what you are doing. I keep it on a Gitzo 1325 tripod and carry it over my shoulder with all my other gear in a backpack. I am comfortable walking about 1/2 mile at a time, but do go farther; I just have to rest periodically. I have to say that I really like the Norma a lot. I've tried a couple of folding field cameras and didn't like them as well. They weren't as rigid and I found them a bit fussy to use, where the Sinar is simple and does whatever I ask without my having to thimk about it. Also, the fact that the Norma is part of a very large system that can be configured to do just about anything is just plain wonderful. I hope this helps, let me know if I can do more.

[CXC]

I've used my Sinar P for cityscapes with highrises (San Francisco), and it's great for that, so long as you are prepared to lug the thing around. Remember that Sinars are not only heavier than Tohos, they are also bulkier, so getting them in and out and assembled will be harder. Then again working from the back of the car you can just leave the thing set up.

I would also take a look at the Sinar F2, no gears, but a very fine arch. camera.

Other good choices to consider are the near-monorail-in-movements-but-folding Linhof Technikardan and Canham metal. They may be ungeared, but plenty precise for outdoor work. If you have never handled a folding camera, you owe it to yourself to at least play with one, and especially put it in and out of the same bag as a monorail. You may find that the ease in transport is worth enough to justify the not-gigantic drop in functionality and stiffness. I own both, but after taking my folder on the road a couple times, to exotic locales, in a small shoulder bag, with a small tripod, I find it hard to be bothered with a monorail...

Keep your eye on ePay, these things pop up, and the prices I believe are trending downwards.

[Greg Meier]

Thank you all for your comments.

Richard, have you had any issues with durability or repair with the Norma? As far as I can understand, the newest ones are about 35 years old now.

CXC, I guess I am considering the Technikardan, just was hoping for something a little cheaper. Do you know if they hold up well used? I had heard complaints about the folding of their bellows.

Thanks, Greg

[Jerry Flynn]

Greg, I have used both a Norma and a c in similar situations to the ones you describe.

The Normas are, indeed, old, but were very well- designed and built. They do not have geared movements beyond the fine focus similar to the current f2. The locks are friction locks, so unless the guides are worn from extreme use, they should be able to be tightened. Normas will accept most of the accessories Sinar has made over the years -- especially note that current bellows, while not tapered like the original Norma bellows, will fit.

I used the c for 5X7 and 8X10 because it permitted rapid conversion between the two formats. As a previous poster suggested, I kept the camera set up on the back seat as I traveled around to speed setup.

I never weighed the two configuration, but I expect the c weighed more.

The c has the advantage of depth-of-field calculator, swing/tilt calculator and is yaw-free, none of which is true of the Norma. If you are shooting architecture, yaw can be an issue if you are pointing the camera rail upwards with the standards returned to perpendicular, and are applying a swing to bring the front of a building, for example, into focus.

I standardized on 4X5 earlier this year and now use an f2 exlusively, which works very well for me.

[Struan Gray]

I use a Norma 4x5 locally around my town and on longer hikes over more rugged terrain. As Jerry said, they're built and designed to a high standard, and can be re-adjusted for wear or slop with simple tools. Various generic parts like the levels or the plastic inserts that clamp the standards to the rails can supposedly still be sourced from Sinar, although I've not tested this personally. It is compatible with a vast array of current Sinar accessories.

The downsides are that only the focussing is geared, the angular movements are not yaw free, and it doesn't pack down as small as modern field monorails like the Technikardan or hybrids like the Canham. The camera is heavy, but not enormously so, but the bulk does preclude carrying it around in a small daypack and I only use mine when photography is the main purpose of my outing.

The upside is that you have a fully featured precision monorail for - in Europe at least - a very reasonable price. I like to use relatively long lenses (18" is my most used landscape lens at present) and it's hard to find cameras as rigid and versatile as the Norma for this purpose without having to spend or carry quite a bit more.

[tor kviljo]

Hello Greg

I just returned from a 3 day trip to mid-east Norway looking for nice colors... With me were my 5x7 Sinar Norma. While I have and do enjoy bringing the Sinar P/P2 I have out in the field when walk-distances is not to long, the Norma is very much lighter & becomes a rather flat & easily backpackable package when rail is taken off. The Norma were Sinars only camera, and a true pro-camera for the best of the about 20 years or so it were in production (the Sinar P arrived in 1970 gradually replacing the Norma). As other posts mention, it is very sturdily built to be a U-bail camera, and mechanical workmanship is of the highest order and thus much better than current Sinar P2's. Extensive use of stainless steel (all locking levers + part of focussing mechanism/locking collar etc) & black steel (main bolt & thus base-tilt axle) makes it much stronger than similar looking cameras using alu & brass parts. Spare parts is generally not an issue: if something goes wrong, you hunt down a similar replacement for the defectiv standard and use your old for spares. Typically and unlike most/any other view camera, sinar standards is often sold separatly making replacement & upgrades easy. Both my Norma 5x7 & 8x10 were put together INEXPENSIVELY these way, both starting as old but usable sub ££100 conversion sets from MXV of london, but I added rails, front standards & missing parts inexpensively over time, and after about 3 years or so, both Normas were complete. The amount of "floating sinar parts" around and the fact that the very common Sinar F auxilary standard will work as second standard on any Norma makes the system nearly unbeatable in the field of part replacement and "how to make it going". Without having first-hand knowledge to the Arca-Swiss cameras, I understand that these may be better designs than the Sinar's, but the enormous parts availability & expandability of the Sinars makes this brand a good choice in general, and the Sinar Norma a espesially good choice as sturdy monorail field camera, much more stable than the F.

Good luck!

(Why I use a 5x7 monorail in the field? - a nice english company dropped a huge amount of just outdated velvia in weired half-plate format (6 1/2" x 4 3/4" I think it is), and which I happends to have 5x7-back cassettes for..) at just as weired prices a few months back (e b a y) - and the Norma 5x7 had quietly made itself ready for a trip in the field. With WA bellows and using the Norma 4"x5" tripod-block, the 5x7 Norma is barely heavier than the 4"x5" model and makes a small packets with front standard resting on rear standard with the synthetic WA bellows as cushioning & protection & fitting nicely in small samsonite photo-backpack W/1 lens in place and two more in sep. compartments (gasp!). Woorks very good).

[Bill McMannis]

Greg,

You mentioned you were considering a Technikardan. While I have had mine for a barely a month, I can say it is perfect for work in the field. I previosuly used a Sinar (combination of components from an F, F+ with an F-2 rear standard.) It was far too bulky from my experience. It was also slow to set up. With the Technikardan I have all of the movements, it is quite compact and I find I set up with this faster than the Sinar or my Zone VI.

You may read where photographers have had trouble folding the camera and would damage the bellows. If you pay attention to what you are doing, this will not be a problem.

Yes, A TK is pricey, but it is worth it.

[CXC]

Heads up, Greg, there is a Sinar C on ePay right now...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15247&item=3843571365&rd=1

[Greg Meier]

Thanks for the heads up CXC.

Tors, how do you pack up your Norma in the backpack? Is it easy (fast) to remove the standards, fast to then set back up again? I found a used Norma in decent shape for around $700 so am leaning that way. I also tried a basic field camera this week (Toyo 45A) and am more convinced that a monorail better suites me.

Bill, the TK is certainly tempting, and I may get there yet. But the older version on ebay now has a starting bid of $1500, and the one I saw in a used store was $2800. How much would you take to part with yours? :-)

Thanks again for all the help. Greg

[tor kviljo]

Hello again, Greg

Unfortunately, I have no digi-camera yet and wouldn't know how to put out a picture here anyway, so here is a written description on my Norma 5x7 field package....

As mentionet I use a Samsonite photo backpack, slightly smaller (less deep) than the Lowe-Pro photo trekker, but othervice similar. I remove all welcro dividers in the lower 2/3 part of the backpack, making a large square space. When packing camera, both standards is slided forward (the rear up to the tripod-block) to slide the front standard off the rail w/o giving the bellow to strong a draw. Then the front (now off rail) and the rear standard is slided backwards taking the rear standard off the rail. Complicated to explain but takes about 10 secongs. With lens, WA-bellows & shutter (I use sinar-copal shutter) in place, the two standards is put into backpack so that GG-back is closest to my back when carrying, the standards resting on their right side (necessary to protect the leftwards protouding aperture-pre-set spring of the Sinar-copal mounted lenses). Now, the rail is taken of tripod, rolled in the dark cloth for cushioning and placed the lengt of the backpack partly on top of the lens-board & standards. Upper 1/3 of backpack have space for two extra lenses (90mm SA & 240mm Symmar) + Luna-Pro SBC light meter & loupe. The film cassettes rides in a compartment on outside of backpack. Setting up the camera + zeroing is less than a minute. If rail is clean, dismounting is even faster (forgot to mention: I NEVER use the end caps which You get with the camera. OK, makes it looks good, but takes more time to take off & put back than rest of the dismounting). The Norma have highly polished alu-rail & synthetic riders (nylon on the F & P series) = very smooth/easy sliding when clean, sticky when not clean: wash rail with alcohol to improve movement. I have not weighted this backpack, just found it to be reasonable light & easy carrying. Having the GG back towards back = no uncomfortable pointing spots from interionr when carrying. Please note: this way of carrying the Norma works best with WA bellows or tapered standard bellows. With all-square standard bellows the standards is resting on top of each other with about 2" distance - resting less perfect than with the WA belows and needing more sideways support from the backpack-dividers. If You don't use long lenses alot, I would advice You to use the WA bellows as standard for better flexibility in transport as well as short lenses.

Good luck with Your Norma if You buy that one! (OK - if You can afford the technikardan and dont need the added flexibility of the Sinar system, I would probably also love to own one of those Linhof-precision machines...)

So long!

Tor Kviljo

[Bill McMannis]

Greg,

I bought mine new from Badger Graphic for $3295. Beware this is a grey market price in the the US. If you do not mind paying about $500 more, you can get one with a US warranty from B&H.

[Frank Petronio]

Although I'm now happily in the Arca camp (happy except for the prices), I think the Sinar Norma is wonderful too - from what I understand, they were both designed by Martin Vogt Sr. - with the Arca following the Norma design. The earlier Arcas are simplier, but the Normas are better made. Now the situation is reversed, with modern Sinars being made "OK" and Arca's having superior build quality. But Sinar has much better support and a larger user base, period.

The way Sinar wanted people to carry the Norma in tight situations is as follows (wish I could find an illustration - but it is easier to do than to explain.) Lower the rear standard to minumum height, and raise the front to maximum height. Unlatch the bellows from the rear standard, and tilt the rear standard forward 90 degrees towards the center of the camera. Compressing the bellows, tilt the front standard backwards 90 degrees. This forms a tight backage which helps protect the ground glass (if you twist the rail clamp out of the way) and you can leave smaller Copal 0 lenses onboard, provided you use lenscaps.

Some people who use lenses under 180mm use the camera with bag bellows and the short 150mm/6 inch rail, which is also very compact.

The Norma rail clamp is most desirable, even for Sinar F users - it is lower and more compact. I also think Sinar made a small "block" rail clamp that was lower and more solid than the usual tall clamp, but they are rarely seen.

I have a friend who cast new epoxy knobs for his Norma - you can find metric parts from other items that will often work on the Normas, or, if you get really into it, you can canabalize a second "junker" camera and sell off the extras for more than you paid for it.

Do not, repeat do not, settle for the Sinar F, F1, or Alpina options! But you might consider an older Arca-Swiss or a Linhof Bi, especially if you buy an entire system for a good price on eBay. They are great values.