Beginner's drum scanning questions concerning mounting

[Christian-NRW]

Hi everybody,

I got my own drum scanner and I'm going to run my first scans tonight. Although I am fairly familiar with the standard precedure of mounting slides on a drum, I have some questions which I hope some of you could help me with:

- If I use parafine for mounting a slide (with which the scanner was used the last ten years, apperentyl without any damage to the drums at least), how long can the slide remain mounted without being damaged? Can I let it be mounted for several days to continue on improving my scanning workflow or will it harm the slide? Would Kami SXL 2001 make a difference?

- Do I need to use a large sheet of mylar despite mounting only one slide for testing or would it be sufficient to cut it down generously for one slide and mount a blind duplicate on the opposite side for balancing?

- Can I use SDS anti-newton spray instead of parafin for mounting medium format slides? Do I understand right that in case of using anti newton spray, the slide can be taped to the drum without a mylar cover? And should I spray on the top side to avoid contact with the emulsion side?

Christian

[vinny]

U can cut th mylar.
Don't leave a sheet of film on the drum for days or do it with a shot you don't care about.
Get the kami fluid or google the diy version discussed here many times.
Coat both sides of the film.
Never heard of parafine.
Watch the Aztek scanning videos and others on youtube.

[Larry Gebhardt]

I have left film mounted over night without issues using Kami. I think if it's safe for an hour it's probably safe for a few days. But if you have any leaks in the taped edges the fluid may slowly evaporate.

Yes you can cut the mylar, but I prefer not to. I've noticed on drums the damaged areas are usually where the tape is and not in the image area. If you start taping over the image area you risk scratching the drum while removing the tape. So I just use whole sheets and try to fill them with film.

I would not tape directly to the negative. It's only a matter of time before you damage one removing the tape. But if you do, make sure it's to the back side and not the emulsion. And be very careful pealing the tape off so you don't crease the film.

I haven't ever used parafin (I assume you mean like lamp oil?). But if your drum was safely mounted using that in the past it's probably fine. Be careful if you switch to Kami. Google for the whole Kami controversy. I've had no issues with it, but my drums were always used with it.

[Lenny Eiger]

A drum scan mounting video might help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APSzB0nX5Vo

Have fun,

Lenny

[Sideshow Bob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCHS5yiF4Mc

Film mounting, how I do it. :-)

Mr.Gale

[Sideshow Bob]

U can cut th mylar.
Don't leave a sheet of film on the drum for days or do it with a shot you don't care about.
Get the kami fluid or google the diy version discussed here many times.
Coat both sides of the film.
Never heard of parafine.
Watch the Aztek scanning videos and others on youtube.

Do some research on mounting fluids before using Kami.

Mr.Gale (opening the old can of worms!)

[vinny]

Do some research on mounting fluids before using Kami.

Mr.Gale (opening the old can of worms!)

Been using it for several years. Never had an issue. Never heard of an issue. Ever.

[Christian-NRW]

Thanks guys for your feedback. could not find much about kami controversy. but I heard a lot of good thins and living in Germany, its easy for me to get this stuff. I'll give it a try. the clips about mounting helped a lot!

christian

[vinny]

Christian, the oils from handling film barehanded is probably worse than anything in Kami fluid.

[sanking]

I have used Kami for several years and have never had any issues with it in terms of film safety and/or drum damage.

Sandy

[Lenny Eiger]

Ive been on the Scan High-End list for many years. I have read all about Kami fluid and different claims by both sides. I have used Kami for a very long time and have had no problems whatsoever. I was at Aztek last year and Evan showed me a drum that handsome minimal crazing on it and I couldn't even see it. They are very careful with the drums that they sell. Having purchased my drums there, I figure this is why I have had no issues.

Aztek's sense of the Kami controversy is that drums craze when they are either manufactured improperly or they have been put on a lathe to be polished. If they get just a little too hot, something happens to the surface and crazing becomes a possibility. The recommend against putting a drum on a lathe for this reason. If you need to polish out scratches, do it by hand. For those who are not familiar with drums, the surface is like butter. All you have to do is touch it with a piece of metal (like your scissors, to cut a piece of tape) and you have a scratch.

However, I think its important to understand that drums are very expensive. A new one can cost $1500-$2000. That's a lot of dough. It can be quite upsetting to lose something of this value. This conversation often gets heated. I understand fully, I don't want to lose a drum, either. I think the answer is to be sure you know the history of any drums you buy, and to get a guarantee whenever you can.

Personally, I am going to buy all my drums thru Aztek. Most everything costs more there, but they will guarantee their product - at least for a certain period of time, enough to see if a drum is crazed.

Hope this helps,

Lenny

[vinny]

I don't think it's the drums that get crazed:)

[Sideshow Bob]

Why take a chance?

Mr.Gale

[Christian-NRW]

Got the kami stuff and so far, it handles great. The mounting fluid really evaporates without leaving a trace and the drum cleaner gets anything of with the first wipe, be it dust or tape residue. It is really far less of a mess than expected.

The problem I have is that the mylar crinkles on the side. Yesterday evening, I took the time to watch all of your mounting videos once again and noticed, that e.g. Lenny applies a bit of pressure on the roll and also applies tension to the mylar via the fixing tape. This was missing e.g. in the Aztek video. I'll give it a try, sounds very promising!

Thanks for your help,
Christian

[vinny]

yeah the aztek video doesn't resemble anything close to the way I do it because my mounting station (screen dts-1030ai) doesn't have all those rollers and acrylic flat surfaces. I use LOTS of 1/2" tesa tape about 2-3" long, there's a reason it stretches. I never put the film closer than about 3/4" to the edge of the mylar ends (8" dimension) to leave room for tape placement. When I started drum scanning, Aztek had the only video out there IIRC and I had a hell of a time with bubbles.

[Vord]

A while back I had the pleasure of meeting man that has been scanning film for the last 30 years.
At the lab he works he uses a ICG drum scanner and he mounts the film with baby oil (aka mineral oil aka paraffine liquidum).
He told me it's the way he's always done it and never had a drum with any damage, he showed me the ones he's been using for the past 5 to 10 years and they were all impeccable. Funny thing is he doesn't even use mylar, he told me it was rather pointless with most of the film they get in since it's all clean, sleeved, recently shot and developed film and if there are going to be any marks they'll mostly be on the emulsion side. Besides that he said they didn't have time for that back when they had hundreds to scan any given day. He puts the baby oil in between the emulsion side and drum and tapes the film straight to the drum itself.

[Lenny Eiger]

I don't mean to be obnoxious, but I think using baby oil is a bit crazy. I've seen it done on someone's drum scanner. It works, but it is also a mess to clean up. Oil everywhere, dust, grime? Yikes.

I have a few bottles of film cleaner here. Bought them about 10 years ago, haven't made it halfway thru the first one. I almost never use it, at most once a year. I don't like cleaning anyone's film with it. It just seems too harsh... with oil I'd have to use it on every single piece of film. Waste of time, not my idea of fun. Unnecessary. Not for me.


Lenny

[Vord]

Most film cleaners I find are made out of mostly petroleum ether, just like kami fluid.
In any case, I've seen him work, the man has great skill and experience and his scans are fantastic.
However cumbersome or nasty it might seem, he makes it work.
He said he uses baby oil since it's by far the purest easily attainable mineral oil you can get.

I figured it was worth telling considering the amount of times I've read how using oil will ruin your drums etc. etc.
10 year old drums, nothing but oil, proof enough for me.

[Lenny Eiger]

Vord,

It is very clear that if film cleaner hits the drum it will ruin it. Everyone should be aware of this.

OTOH, I can't imagine anyone saying that oil would hurt a drum. The person I observed using oil was a veteran scanner operator, someone who I respect (who actually went to scanning school back when they still and those...).

However, having seen both I think oil is quite unnecessary... all I do is wave the film in the air a couple of times after it comes off the drum and everything is clean... sometimes there is progress... and better ways of doing things as life moves forward.

Lenny

[Vord]

Obviously I'm not saying no film cleaner out there would damage a drum, I'm sure many would and you're correct to say it's inadvisable.

But the most common ones I know such as Varn film cleaner, Tetenal graphics art film cleaner, Anchor film kleen or Kami's own film cleaner would not. They are roughly made up of the same components, none of which would be harmful in their compositions as a drum cleaner.

[Lenny Eiger]

Obviously I'm not saying no film cleaner out there would damage a drum, I'm sure many would and you're correct to say it's inadvisable.

But the most common ones I know such as Varn film cleaner, Tetenal graphics art film cleaner, Anchor film kleen or Kami's own film cleaner would not. They are roughly made up of the same components, none of which would be harmful in their compositions as a drum cleaner.

Vord, while I have never tried myself (and won't) all the pros say keep that film cleaner far away from a drum. I've been on the Scan High End list for many years and I have never heard any other opinion. I re-read the MSDS and I don't see anything either. However. I would add that these drums are quite sensitive. The coating is like butter. One touch with a pice of metal and you have a scratch. Fluid is not metal, to be sure, but I would definitely advise caution.

Lenny

[Christian-NRW]

Kami Film Cleaner, contrary to Kami Drum Cleaner, contains Isopropanole. Isopropanole is a good film cleaning agent as long as it is water free (see Kodak publication), which is probably assured by the Naphta within the cleaner. But it causes stress cracking when brought into contact with acrylic plastics, especially in combination with heat. This is probably the reason as why to avoid it for use on drums.

Christian

[Vord]

Isopropanol consistently makes up less than 20% of the solutions mentioned, at that strength used as a cleaner it wouldn't do anything to damage acrylic, neither instantly or cumulatively. To actually damage acrylic, isopropanol, besides heat, needs time.
The aforementioned drum scan operator has always used film cleaner to clean his drums and it never damaged them, as it shouldn't. First he always used Varn film cleaner, now he uses a different film cleaner, I forgot which one. Anchor Film Kleen even puts it in their advertisement as being safe to clean drums with, and it is. That however probably is the reason it generally isn't advised, however to say that it will most definitely damage acrylic is a falsehood.

[Daniel Stone]

Vord,
It might be that this operators drums are made of optical GLASS, and NOT optical acrylic. Many of the older, bigger/heavier scanners had drums that were optical glass, not resin like more modern ones. At least I've seen Screen, Scanmate and even a Howtek 4500 drum that were made from glass. And frankly, I much preferred that to the modern(and probably cheaper to manufacture) optical acrylic that's used in current scanner drums from ICG and Aztek.

I'd happily swap my acrylic drums I use on my DPL8000 for identical glass versions, as I feel the glass(despite it being heavier weight-wise) will simply hold up better over long-term use than the acrylic(as Lenny mentioned, is like "butter" and easily scratched. Not to mention the crazing issue). I have 3 drums, and one has seen so much use(by the former scanner owner) that I now only use it as a print(reflective only) drum, since it basically only has room to mount 35mm, maybe 6x7 sized negatives in 2-3 spots that are clear enough for the crazing to not affect it.

-Dan

[Tyler Boley]

I have a drum badly crazed from contact with film cleaner. Isopropanol is listed as an ingredient

[Sideshow Bob]

Vord,
It might be that this operators drums are made of optical GLASS, and NOT optical acrylic. Many of the older, bigger/heavier scanners had drums that were optical glass, not resin like more modern ones. At least I've seen Screen, Scanmate and even a Howtek 4500 drum that were made from glass. And frankly, I much preferred that to the modern(and probably cheaper to manufacture) optical acrylic that's used in current scanner drums from ICG and Aztek.

I'd happily swap my acrylic drums I use on my DPL8000 for identical glass versions, as I feel the glass(despite it being heavier weight-wise) will simply hold up better over long-term use than the acrylic(as Lenny mentioned, is like "butter" and easily scratched. Not to mention the crazing issue). I have 3 drums, and one has seen so much use(by the former scanner owner) that I now only use it as a print(reflective only) drum, since it basically only has room to mount 35mm, maybe 6x7 sized negatives in 2-3 spots that are clear enough for the crazing to not affect it.

-Dan

I've seen a lot of ScanMate drums but never one made of glass, I would sure like to find one.
Mr.Gale

[Daniel Stone]

I've seen a lot of ScanMate drums but never one made of glass, I would sure like to find one.
Mr.Gale

Funny enough, before I got my DPL8000 I found a Scanmate 5000 for $500 locally(no mounting station, but had a drum + computer/software, funny enough? I held off on buying it since the seller seemed a bit weird). Anyhow, the one drum WAS glass, as it was considerably heavier than my drums I have for my DPL

[Vord]

Hi Dan, his drums were acrylic, I'm certain, I had a chance to inspect them myself.

In my previous profession where I spent most of my time inside a cleanroom, there was various equipment with acrylic components that were regularly wiped down with a disinfectant solution made up out of mostly water, isopropanol and a fungicidal ingredient (probably chlorhexadine).

But, to reiterate, cleaning drums with film cleaner isn't something I'm trying to endorse and considering the many possible variables in manufacturing and usage, I wouldn't risk it. One would be better off just getting a bottle of petroleum ether for cleaning a drum.