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View Full Version : Nom & Jelly's 8x10 View Camera Project



Raffay
12-Jan-2014, 21:41
Hello All,

The desire to get an 810 view camera, and the shortage of funds has inspired me to start my own home 810 project. I have access to a very good carpenter, they are in wood works for generations. Labour costs are very very cheap here in Pakistan, and we have access to some fine wood. So why not start my own little production, seems like a good idea, especially because my wife is in support :) and why not as she could see a savings of thousands of dollars in future (my plan to eventually buy a Deardorff).

The only missing piece is the transfer of knowledge, and I am hoping if someone here can play this crucial role. I believe, there are two ways to go about it; one you can share drawings - also you can recommend possible changes to get the best of all in one (not entirely possible but we can try). The second, if someone can lend a 810 to be used as sample and be returned once we make our first. This is the most workable option, as skill is abundant here but capability to visualise and produce to that vision is seriously missing. Although, it seems like a copying project, but I guess that's how similar products are made not everyone invents them. Also, if we can improve upon them based on the field experience then at least we would be making some advancement. I feel, if I can show one working then I feel it will be a very easy job for him.

Having said that, I am open to suggestions.

How might this work in business terms:

1. You will have to make an investment by sending me 8x10 camera
2. I will bear the cost of production
3. We can setup a website, with your address and I ship to you so that delivery in
your country (I would like multiple partners meaning from different countries) is
quick.
4. Initially, I would produce and send to you, all costs by me. Later, if it picks up
then you can preorder.

Let me know if this sounds good to anyone, I think we can produce an 810 in an amazing price and make this wonderful medium available to most who want to take the leap.

You can also PM or write to me at raffay.abdul@gmail.com if you feel more comfortable in that.

Cheers
Raffay.

mdm
12-Jan-2014, 22:43
Raffay, I think I have some proper plans I can send you, PM your address. Be aware that there is a lot of metal work involved in making a camera. I have no desire to sell cameras, you can have the plans.

Raffay
12-Jan-2014, 22:46
Is it possible to scan and send, as mail takes forever. I thought about metal works as well, luckily I have a couple of good metal work guys and I am sure they can do the job.

Jim Jones
13-Jan-2014, 07:22
Most large format camera designs require sophisticated equipment for efficient production. Copying a camera may involve patent infringement. For a basic camera design that should involve a smaller start-up investment, consider http://home.online.no/~gjon/jgcam.htm. The late Bender large format kits appeared to be somewhat similar. The Noba camera, once made in Mexico, also used a design that avoided some sophisticated metalwork.

jb7
13-Jan-2014, 07:41
Hello All,

Although, it seems like a copying project, but I guess that's how similar products are made not everyone invents them.


I do find it somewhat perplexing that commercial reproduction of original designs is generally acceptable here, as long as the price is right, but if someone suggested that they wanted to reproduce photographs at no benefit to the photographer, then there would be widespread uproar.

Of course, if MDM wanted to give away his own plans for nothing, then that would be a different matter... and most large format cameras aren't patented anyway, or even if they were, the patent would be expired by now.

BradS
13-Jan-2014, 08:13
As I stated on APUG, the OP's request/assumption is outrageous and extraordinarily offensive.

Unbelievable!

jp
13-Jan-2014, 08:21
Probably the law doesn't reach to Pakistan... To substantiate that would be political that would get the thread closed. Nonetheless, It'd be wise to stick to a out of production camera from a dead company. IANAL.. This would be like the replica firearm business; you can replicate a civil war musket, but not a tommy gun since the tommy's are still in production/business. Copy a Canham or Deardorff for commercial gain and you'll be shut down and disrespected. Maybe if you're looking to do something mostly wood, replicate the old century studio cameras like the model 1 or 10.

BradS
13-Jan-2014, 08:50
I do not have the skill to make compelling photographs. Please mail me your negatives so that I can make prints from them and sell them. Better yet, please steal some good files from the internet and I'll print them and sell them...then we can all have compelling photos of our own.


For me, it goes beyond what might be legal...or, rather, not illegal. It is a matter of basic right and wrong. Just because you can get away with ripping off somebody else's work doesn't make it right.

mdarnton
13-Jan-2014, 09:03
I find the reactions here offensive as well as uninformed. What specific patents still stand that you guys don't want infringed? I really doubt that there are any. The purpose of patents has TWO sides: first to protect the inventor for a LIMITED time, and second, to eventually turn innovative ideas out for public use. In the US patents are valid for 20 years. Are there any particular less-than-twenty year old innovations at all in wooden view cameras?

Jac@stafford.net
13-Jan-2014, 09:21
[...]The late Bender large format kits appeared to be somewhat similar.

I built a couple Benders: one for myself and another for a client. At first I was not impressed, but after going through several far more expensive and heavier view cameras, I found Jay Bender's whole approach elegant and thoughtful, especially to one who had no sophisticated tools. Using as little metal as possible is a worth challenge. Just don't copy Jay's work. Rise to the occasion to invent. Imagination required!

mdm
13-Jan-2014, 11:02
All the guy wants is an 8x10 camera. Anyway show me one camera that does not borrow from its predecessors, except maybe the very first camera obscura, which was likely an accident. Do any of you arrogant gentlemen know what it is like to want an 8x10 camera to go with plentiful and cheap xray film but to be foiled by cost and availability. Let him have his dream.

Andrew O'Neill
13-Jan-2014, 13:03
I don't have a problem with this request. If I had a scrap 8x10 laying around, I'd send it. I built a camera from scratch (14x17) and I know how difficult it can be. I took ideas from existing cameras on the internet, such as Philips. Isn't the Chamonix based on it?
Raffay, I bet you could build one from scratch. Start a thread here so that we can follow your progress. Good luck.

djdister
13-Jan-2014, 15:00
Contrary to what you may think, the OP doesn't just want a single 8x10 camera. His points #3 and 4 are a business proposition (and this is posted under the Business forum, not the DIY forum), so doesn't THAT put a different spin on things?

Also, I find it hard to believe that there are no old 8x10 cameras floating around in Pakistan, say within less than a hundred miles of where he is located. But please, GO AHEAD and send your 8x10 camera to Pakistan...


All the guy wants is an 8x10 camera. Anyway show me one camera that does not borrow from its predecessors, except maybe the very first camera obscura, which was likely an accident. Do any of you arrogant gentlemen know what it is like to want an 8x10 camera to go with plentiful and cheap xray film but to be foiled by cost and availability. Let him have his dream.

jp
13-Jan-2014, 15:12
Contrary to what you may think, the OP doesn't just want a single 8x10 camera. His points #3 and 4 strongly suggest going into business, so doesn't THAT put a different spin on things?

Also, I find it hard to believe that there are no old 8x10 cameras floating around in Pakistan, say within less than a hundred miles of where he is located. But please, GO AHEAD and send your 8x10 camera to Pakistan, and after that claim your millions of dollars from Nigeria...

The OP has been posting and sharing enough that I wouldn't bunch him with the Nigerian fraudsters. He puts up photos and has better mastery of the English language.

mdm
13-Jan-2014, 17:32
Question, how many people who set out to build a LF camera actually do and use it regularly? How many of those people go on to mass produce and sell a quality product, employ an army of craftsmen? In recent times only Chamonix, and the world is a better place with them around. However if cameras were to be made in Pakistan by an army of skilled craftsmen I would be very happy, you dont sell product in the west and become a suicide bomber, keep those Peshawari jewlers busy making knobs, gunsmiths busy making racks, tailors busy making bellows.

Nathan Potter
13-Jan-2014, 18:08
First, the mechanisms that are used in the building of a LF 8X10 are no longer under patent protection, at least in the US, and I'd be surprised to find any were ever even filed in Pakistan. Anyone is free to design and build and market their own versions. Possibly exact copies of a large sales volume existing model would bring suit but slight changes in design would mitigate the risk. The risk is a bit higher for copyrighted designs but again slight changes in a new version will offer a good degree of protection.

The OP would do well to look at the very low end of the new market for 8 X 10 and he is in a good part of the world for achieving a low cost 8 X 10.

Can't see anything wrong with his approach.

Comparing the reproduction of someone elses' photo then selling has a much higher level of risk and is a different situation since that specific image is copyrighted by the owner. If you go to the same location and take your own image of the exact same scene - that is yours to sell even though the embellishments might be infinitesimal.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

brucep
14-Jan-2014, 01:58
Bulldog self assembly cameras are still available:

http://www.pinholesolutions.co.uk/camera_kits.html

Scroll down the page past the pinhole options.

Bruce

Tim Meisburger
14-Jan-2014, 04:19
Raffay is a good guy, and it would be great if he could start a business making and selling view cameras in Pakistan. I'm not sure (I'm sure someone will tell me), but I think you could probably copy an old Agfa Ansco like Ansel Adams used without violating patent laws. Would be quite nice to have those back, I think.

Drew Bedo
14-Jan-2014, 08:41
There are many ways to make a view camera; from the solid box of the first Daguerreotype cameras of the 1840s to the most modern all metal or all polycarbonate cameras available today. In-between are examples of every level of complexity in articulating the front and rear standards, the method of attaching the bellows and mounting a lens board. "Nothing is new under the sun" applies here.
I am sure that the OP and his associates can come up with a workable, useful and desirable camera that is not a flat-out copy of a camera in current commercial production. Starting with a set of plans is a step towards a first prototype. Maybe something like a kick-starter effort would help.

During the entire first decade of this century there was a major discussion in the LF community here, and on other websites, about the ability of one person to enforce a patent on converting Polaroid cameras to accept 4x5 film holders. It all came to nothing. Anyone may do that in any manner they choose.

I do not recall anyone making a federal case out of the "Rajah" cameras in the 80s and '90s. They were hand-built in India, made from exotic (to the US market) hardwood and looked exactly like a baby Deardorff .
.

George E. Sheils
15-Jan-2014, 16:05
Best of luck with your venture, Raffay.
I hope it succeeds.

David (Mdm)is very generous to send on his plans to you.
I know you know that.

Now...it would be great to see you turn out a Banquet 8x10 along the lines of a B&J.
Especially one with a red bellows. :)

MMELVIS
17-Jan-2014, 21:57
Plans here for building an 8x10

http://web.archive.org/web/20040914084523/www.srv.net/~vail/camera.htm


http://home.online.no/~gjon/camerabuilders.htm

Brassai
19-Jan-2014, 09:03
I find the reactions here offensive as well as uninformed. What specific patents still stand that you guys don't want infringed? I really doubt that there are any. The purpose of patents has TWO sides: first to protect the inventor for a LIMITED time, and second, to eventually turn innovative ideas out for public use. In the US patents are valid for 20 years. Are there any particular less-than-twenty year old innovations at all in wooden view cameras?



I agree. The OP is a guy who simply wants to make some money to support his family doing honest work. I applaud his industriousness. Far better than someone on welfare sitting around asking, "Doodah check come?" Once something is off patent, it's fair game. Finally, I'm all for more choices in cameras.

benrains
23-Jan-2014, 13:52
It's a great idea. Maybe it's a bit crazy, but whatever. The Bender 8x10 is a good suggestion. One of my friends used to do some really amazing work with hers when she could afford a fancier 8x10. Alternatively, you might consider a very basic and durable field camera design like the Burke & James 8x10 View. If local woodworkers and metalworkers are good enough, then something like a an Ansco Universal would be nice.

jongrep
17-Oct-2015, 22:45
Plans here for building an 8x10

http://web.archive.org/web/20040914084523/www.srv.net/~vail/camera.htm


http://home.online.no/~gjon/camerabuilders.htm

Please note that my website is moving. New URL: jongrepstad.com

Links to camera builders will be available by the end of October.

Jon Grepstad

Old Jim
2-Feb-2016, 17:49
I know I am coming into this conversation months later, but here is my two cents... I posted on the DIY thread a month or so ago that I wanted to build an 8X10, and was having problems with plans. I have since downloaded photos of a lot of different cameras, showing different views of them to try to form a plan. I have gone to several sites that show a some ideas and plans for building a camera. Even ordered a book that I think was a waste of money...

Now I am not building for sale! This is for me, and I want the satisfaction of doing it. I began my process several weeks ago, by drawing up tentative plans that I thought would work. I am retired, but I have a full woodworking shop and am fairly talented in that field, and I also have a full machine shop that even though old is capable of producing the metal parts I need. I have had to build some special tools to facilitate cutting the racks and I had to order an expensive milling cutter to cut my gears. But the project is underway, and I plan to post photos and details at a later date. The main camera that I am drawing inspiration from is the Deardorff. I know I am not going to build a replica but I am going to use a lot of ideas from it.

So anyone trying to make a view camera to sell, in my opinion has a long road to hoe. Even if you took a camera and disassembled it and duplicated the parts, I still can't imagine it being feasible. But I wish anyone luck.
Just Saying...
Jim

Raffay
2-Feb-2016, 19:45
Very interesting and thank you for posting. My project never took off and I am still on the lookout for an 8x10. Currently there a few options a wista with some issues for under 1500 with a lens and a Burke and James for 700 euros but I am also considering a she hao.

MMELVIS
4-Feb-2016, 19:01
Please note that my website is moving. New URL: jongrepstad.com

Links to camera builders will be available by the end of October.

Jon Grepstad

Thank you for your updated link