Whats the same & whats new & different?

[PureQuill Photo]

The last time I shot 4X5 was 1981.
While the cameras & enlargers seem pretty much the the same.
I know that, film, chemistry and a lot of things other things have changed in 3 & 1/2 decades. So what new tricks do you have to teach this old dog?:)

[BradS]

With the exception of Xtol and possibly a few others, B&W film developers have really not changed significantly. Of course, we now have much better film stock - Kodak TMX and TMY, Ilford Delta 100...Fuji Acros.

I print on Ilford MG-IV and it is much, much better than the Kodak papers I used in the 1970's and 1980's (opinions will be all over the place on this though).

We have a whole bunch of new, inexpensive LF cameras from China, Inc.

[bob carnie]

The biggest difference for me would be ...

Quality VC papers and split contrast printing... o yea the resurgence/popularity of PMK developers by Gordon Hutchings.

The biggest loss would be Ilfomar and Ektalure paper lines.


The last time I shot 4X5 was 1981.
While the cameras & enlargers seem pretty much the the same.
I know that, film, chemistry and a lot of things other things have changed in 3 & 1/2 decades. So what new tricks do you have to teach this old dog?:)

[Ken Lee]

Another difference is the decline of brick-and-mortar photo and camera stores and the appearance of online sources of information and equipment, like this site.

[PureQuill Photo]

The biggest difference for me would be ...

Quality VC papers and split contrast printing... o yea the resurgence/popularity of PMK developers by Gordon Hutchings.

The biggest loss would be Ilfomar and Ektalure paper lines.


Wow split contrast printing sounds exciting!
Guess I am going to have to reeducate myself about the whole paper & film market place in the 21st century.
Ilford was just starting to penetrate Kodaks market share and gain acceptance.
Thanks for all the responses!
I guess this is probably the wrong thread to ask about the quality of of Chinese cameras.

[Vaughn]

The Chinese LF cameras are generally very good...to generally excellent. You'll find lots of threads here about them.

"Alternative" photography has gone from an excuse to make artsy-fartsy prints without worrying too much about technique, to some pretty amazing work.

[Drew Wiley]

Yes... Certain Chinese view cameras are made by very small dedicated shops with excellent quality control.... don't confuse this with the mass-produced junk mentality of big box outlets and the kind of things they import or "outsource" (a synonym for bait-and-switch marketing). Color films and paper have changed a
great deal, with color negative materials now taking full dominance over chromes or slides. There is also that other way of making color prints, but I don't want
anyone getting their mouth washed out with soap by mentioning digi... or ink....whatever. Kodak is now the underdog, but coming back to life after a pretty severe
mauling. They still make some superb black and white and color neg films, and are also still in the color paper game, but not black and white paper anymore. Ilford
is dominating that latter camp. And Agfa is long gone, though the brand name itself has been reincarnated on a few things. Fuji is the big dog in much of the
world. View cameras have tended to get lighter and more ergonomic for field use, and now you can have an 8x10 for about the weight of an old school 4x5. Lens
manufacture for these is dropping like flies, though there are a great many used lenses available at better prices than ever. Darkroom equipment can be had
affordably if not downright free. It's a great time to be in large format. But tricks??? Our bag of those just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

[John Kasaian]

Letsee...Foma has made it's presence felt in the US market. Freestyle's house brand of sheet film is now made by Foma, not Ilford or the sadly missed, but doomed Forte.
AFAIK, all Kodak B&W papers have vanished from the scene.
Also X-ray film has become popular in larger formats because the film is so cheap.
Kodak in any size larger than 4x5 is pita to find and expensive.
Efke, Bergger, and a few others are out of the biz
Agfa, as Drew Wiley mentioned, is long gone except for a few of the more popular(Zombie?) chemicals.
Chemistry hasn't change all that much except for Kodak dropping some more products (but most, or very similar products, are still available outsourced from Kodak or other manufacturers.)
Nacco, sadly, seems to have been a casualty. I can't find it in the Freestyle catalog anymore.
I cannot comment on color materials as I don't use them.
The good news is that Ilford is alive and well and plentiful! If you were using Ilford materials 30 years ago, getting back into LF should be like slipping on a pair of comfortable shoes.

[StoneNYC]

Letsee...Foma has made it's presence felt in the US market. Freestyle's house brand of sheet film is now made by Foma, not Ilford or the sadly missed, but doomed Forte.
AFAIK, all Kodak B&W papers have vanished from the scene.
Also X-ray film has become popular in larger formats because the film is so cheap.
Kodak in any size larger than 4x5 is pita to find and expensive.
Efke, Bergger, and a few others are out of the biz
Agfa, as Drew Wiley mentioned, is long gone except for a few of the more popular(Zombie?) chemicals.
Chemistry hasn't change all that much except for Kodak dropping some more products (but most, or very similar products, are still available outsourced from Kodak or other manufacturers.)
Nacco, sadly, seems to have been a casualty. I can't find it in the Freestyle catalog anymore.
I cannot comment on color materials as I don't use them.
The good news is that Ilford is alive and well and plentiful! If you were using Ilford materials 30 years ago, getting back into LF should be like slipping on a pair of comfortable shoes.

I can't comment on kodak papers but if I wanted to shoot kodak sheets any larger than 4x5 I wouldn't have much trouble, B&H caries lots of larger sheet sizes in kodak and ilford, and Keith Canham regularly orders special cuts of ULF sizes from kodak, or wait till the Ilford ULF once a year to effectively buy any size you want (assuming enough people order it).

So, there are many good things in films still happening :)

[Patrick13]

PS: Freestyle is still there doin' the same old things, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose ;) I grew up in Los Angeles a short drive away so I had to shout out to the homies.

Finding information now is huge, you cannot overestimate how amazing the web is for hobbies like LF film photography. I can go and within minutes find specs, diagrams and discussion on obscure lenses and cameras, or share my love of my particular camera with others and get inspired by what others share every day.

Supplies are strong and the hobby deep enough to sustain in the long term, new LF gear of quality is being produced. All in all it's a good time to come back.

(yes, I'm opinionated and sometimes I'm very wrong but in this I think that my enthusiasm is founded)

[Mark Sawyer]

Whats the same & whats new & different?
The last time I shot 4X5 was 1981...

Same: The camera, tripod, and film holders.

Different: They mysteriously weigh twenty pounds more when hiking...

[Heroique]

Same: The camera, tripod, and film holders.

Different: They mysteriously weigh twenty pounds more when hiking...

Alas, you probably mean due to aging since 1981. :(

Another reason for "weight gain" for long-distance hikers: The disappearance of Quick Loads, Ready Loads, Type 55.

The silver lining: Weight gain in the pack = weight loss for the hiker!

[polyglot]

There is no more Cibachrome/Ilfochrome so if you want to make colour prints, they're either C41/RA4 or you do it digitally. Scanners are pretty decent these days but not cheap.

[PureQuill Photo]

Cibachrome was the only way to print “Chromes" other than color separations.
If you shot with the goal of publication you shot chromes ....that was just the way it was back then.

Scanners & photoshop were the stuff Flash Gordon used. LOL!
Don’t get me wrong I don't hate photoshop or Pro Tools they have their place.
But I do miss film & slamming 2” tape with tube mics!
Some things even though they are “technically perfect & superior ” are missing something & sterile.
The world is not perfect & when we try to make it perfect something is lost.
Call it tonality,harmonics ,soul or mojo there is a reason why some of us still do it the hard way!
PQ

[MIke Sherck]

Let's not forget the less-than-obvious: manufacturers continue to improve their products. For example, Kodak's Tri-X has the same name but isn't the same film you might remember. Ditto Tmax-100, Tmax-400, Ektar, Ilford's HP4+ is not the same as HP4, HP5+ is not the same as HP5, etc. You're going to have to test and get used to both film and paper again. This isn't a bad thing: we have the best materials we've ever had!

Mike

[StoneNYC]

Let's not forget the less-than-obvious: manufacturers continue to improve their products. For example, Kodak's Tri-X has the same name but isn't the same film you might remember. Ditto Tmax-100, Tmax-400, Ektar, Ilford's HP4+ is not the same as HP4, HP5+ is not the same as HP5, etc. You're going to have to test and get used to both film and paper again. This isn't a bad thing: we have the best materials we've ever had!

Mike

That's a product of people, technically it's not Tri-X, it's 400TX :) people just won't call it that. But yes the films are very high quality.

[Taija71A]

... technically it's not Tri-X, it's 400TX :) people just won't call it that.

____

Help, Help, Help... Please Help ME!!!

--

TRI-X 320 FILM
320TXP
Kodak Professional

http://www.adorama.com/KK41644550.html
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1791367-Kodak-Tri-X-Pro-320-ISO-4x5-50-sheets-TXP

--

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
~~ misquoted expression by Alexander Pope ~~

-Tim.
_________

[StoneNYC]

____

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! :(

TRI-X 320 FILM
320TXP
Kodak Professional

http://www.adorama.com/KK41644550.html
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1791367-Kodak-Tri-X-Pro-320-ISO-4x5-50-sheets-TXP

--

-Tim.
_________

Also wrong, TXP is NOT Tri-X... That's Tri-X Professional 320, Tri-X is 400...

[Taija71A]

Also wrong, TXP is NOT Tri-X... That's Tri-X Professional 320, Tri-X is 400...

@StoneNYC

The 'OP' shoots 4x5.


The last time I shot 4X5 was 1981.

Therefore... We are NOT talking about 35mm or 120 here (*Otherwise this thread would be in 'The Lounge').

Thank-you!
--
Best Regards,

-Tim.
________

[StoneNYC]

@StoneNYC

The 'OP' shoots 4x5.



Therefore... We are NOT talking about 35mm or 120 here (*Otherwise this thread would be in 'The Lounge').

Thank-you!
--
Best Regards,

-Tim.
________

AFAIK there used to be Tri-X in 4x5 as a special order for sheets :-p (playing devils advocate). Anyway I wasn't aware the TXP got a re-make as well. Shows what I know.

[ic-racer]

Since 1981, CHANGES of note for me:

Used LF lenses available at discount prices
NEW HIGH QUALITY LF cameras made in China can be shipped to your door
Take care of your film holders; new ones will likely need to be custom made; though used ones are still easy to get.
Used LF enlargers are available at discount prices
High quality multigrade paper is available from multiple manufacturers (but not Kodak).
Ten years ago Densitometers and Sensitometers were available for a fraction of their new cost but maybe not so in the last 3 to 5 years.
Good enlarger alignment tools available (Laser or mirrors).
MTF is used more commonly than lines per millimeter for describing lens performance.
Hansma described an optimum shooting aperture that takes into account diffraction and de-focus.
Selenium probably does not aid B&W print longevity
Although concentrated hypo poured into a print washer goes straight to the bottom, the usual dilute hypo, that would be present during print washing, is probably distributed evenly throughout the moving water
Microfiber lens-cleaning cloth

Since 1981, the SAME:

Beginners you might meet or teach still like underexposing and over developing negatives
Fiber Based Paper archival washing sequence is nearly the same.
Still, no one knows if RC paper is archival
Spot meters are still pretty expensive
New Jobo processors are still expensive
Six element enlarging lenses are still the best
Darkrooms still use a conventional amber or red safelight!
Multigrade paper still uses GREEN (low contrast) and BLUE (high contrast) sensitive layers, though the Ilford Contrast Filter set has changed since 1981.
Commercial film speed ratings are still based on the work of Loyd Jones
"Silver Bullet" chasing is more prevalent. On the Internet everyone is a self proclaimed expert touting the latest-greatest concoction of lens, film and chemistry. From tea leaves and vitamin-c to motion picture film cut to sheet film sizes. It seems like without a mentor it might be impossible to make logical sense out of it.

[Drew Wiley]

The world is still crawling with "artistes" who think the whole point of creativity is to have green hair and nose rings. ... the only difference now is that they Holga
cameras.

[John Kasaian]

Speaking of quality films, Kodak, TMY is quite a remarkable film if you can pay for the taxi dance. I still have some reserved for when the reciprocity zombies attack
I've heard great things about Neopan as well, but no personal experience.
Probably one of the biggest differences between then and now is that used quality gear can be had for pennies on the dollar. Highly regarded 210mms go begging at Keh. Older Sinars are even giving classic Calumet 400's some competition. 4x5 enlargers? Don't be surprised if you find them for give-way prices on Craig's List.
I started putting together my kit in 1997-8 and I've got some great quality gear I could only have dreamed about affording a decade before. The great digital migration was a good thing and with some traditional photo gear, we're still reaping the rewards.

[StoneNYC]

Speaking of quality films, Kodak, TMY is quite a remarkable film if you can pay for the taxi dance. I still have some reserved for when the reciprocity zombies attack
I've heard great things about Neopan as well, but no personal experience.
Probably one of the biggest differences between then and now is that used quality gear can be had for pennies on the dollar. Highly regarded 210mms go begging at Keh. Older Sinars are even giving classic Calumet 400's some competition. 4x5 enlargers? Don't be surprised if you find them for give-way prices on Craig's List.
I started putting together my kit in 1997-8 and I've got some great quality gear I could only have dreamed about affording a decade before. The great digital migration was a good thing and with some traditional photo gear, we're still reaping the rewards.

+1

Neopan Acros100 is amazing!

[PureQuill Photo]

Since 1981, CHANGES of note for me:

Used LF lenses available at discount prices
NEW HIGH QUALITY LF cameras made in China can be shipped to your door
Take care of your film holders; new ones will likely need to be custom made; though used ones are still easy to get.
Used LF enlargers are available at discount prices
High quality multigrade paper is available from multiple manufacturers (but not Kodak).
Ten years ago Densitometers and Sensitometers were available for a fraction of their new cost but maybe not so in the last 3 to 5 years.
Good enlarger alignment tools available (Laser or mirrors).
MTF is used more commonly than lines per millimeter for describing lens performance.
Hansma described an optimum shooting aperture that takes into account diffraction and de-focus.
Selenium probably does not aid B&W print longevity
Although concentrated hypo poured into a print washer goes straight to the bottom, the usual dilute hypo, that would be present during print washing, is probably distributed evenly throughout the moving water
Microfiber lens-cleaning cloth

Since 1981, the SAME:

Beginners you might meet or teach still like underexposing and over developing negatives
Fiber Based Paper archival washing sequence is nearly the same.
Still, no one knows if RC paper is archival
Spot meters are still pretty expensive
New Jobo processors are still expensive
Six element enlarging lenses are still the best
Darkrooms still use a conventional amber or red safelight!
Multigrade paper still uses GREEN (low contrast) and BLUE (high contrast) sensitive layers, though the Ilford Contrast Filter set has changed since 1981.
Commercial film speed ratings are still based on the work of Loyd Jones
"Silver Bullet" chasing is more prevalent. On the Internet everyone is a self proclaimed expert touting the latest-greatest concoction of lens, film and chemistry. From tea leaves and vitamin-c to motion picture film cut to sheet film sizes. It seems like without a mentor it might be impossible to make logical sense out of it.

Great list!

Thanks to all for the info! I have so much to relearn!
30+ years is a long time to be away but I better do it now while I can still see & carry the gear!:o

[PureQuill Photo]

The world is still crawling with "artistes" who think the whole point of creativity is to have green hair and nose rings. ... the only difference now is that they Holga
cameras.


LOL! I used that dumb hippy with the big old camera....I guess now I am going to be that old guy with cool big old camera..:cool:

[PureQuill Photo]

[QUOTE=John Kasaian;1096370]
4x5 enlargers? Don't be surprised if you find them for give-way prices on Craig's List.


No kidding I found this on Cl for $30!
Now to find a camera to go with it!107917107918