On craft and life.

[Kirk Gittings]

The most inspirational film on photography I have seen in some time:

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365134660/

[IanG]

The video is unavailable outside the US unfortunately.

Ian

[Steve Goldstein]

I agree with Kirk, this is a really amazing and motivating film.

It's available on DVD from Amazon for around US$10.

[Erik Larsen]

Just for clarification, is it the video about the sushi guys or another video?

[Kirk Gittings]

Watch it and I think you will get it. I've been a full time photographer since 1978 and this taught me more about my craft than most great photo books have about photography.

[Jim collum]

Just for clarification, is it the video about the sushi guys or another video?

Yea.. Jiro Ono

One of the finest craftsman of *any* craft I've witnessed.

[Erik Larsen]

Watch it and I think you will get it. I've been a full time photographer since 1978 and this taught me more about my craft than most great photo books have about photography.

Will do, just wanted to make sure the video was the correct one. Thanks

[speedfreak]

My browser brings up Jiro Dreams of Sushi. If this is the film you're referring to, then I whole heartily agree.
There is a lot to be said for the art in taking a craft to its highest level. Even the simplest of tasks or subject can be coaxed into giving up its incredible beauty if treated with enough reverence.
Craft is so often overlooked today, especially in the western culture of cheap approximations, that when someone or something is found to be possessing such careful consideration it serves as inspiration for those that truly appreciate what it stands for; beauty in a raw form. A shining light that can serve as inspiration for ones own craft.

[Kirk Gittings]

My browser brings up Jiro Dreams of Sushi. If this is the film you're referring to, then I whole heartily agree.
There is a lot to be said for the art in taking a craft to its highest level. Even the simplest of tasks or subject can be coaxed into giving up its incredible beauty if treated with enough reverence.
Craft is so often overlooked today, especially in the western culture of cheap approximations, that when someone or something is found to be possessing such careful consideration it serves as inspiration for those that truly appreciate what it stands for; beauty in a raw form. A shining light that can serve as inspiration for ones own craft.

Yes. Well said.

[Mark Sawyer]

There is a lot to be said for the art in taking a craft to its highest level. Even the simplest of tasks or subject can be coaxed into giving up its incredible beauty if treated with enough reverence.
Craft is so often overlooked today, especially in the western culture of cheap approximations, that when someone or something is found to be possessing such careful consideration it serves as inspiration for those that truly appreciate what it stands for; beauty in a raw form. A shining light that can serve as inspiration for ones own craft.

But if identical-looking and -tasting sushi could be made with a digital 3D Sushi-printer, wouldn't it have the same value?

[Bill Burk]

Beautiful film thanks Kirk,

"Always strive to elevate your craft, that's what he taught me"...

[evan clarke]

The rub is in selling your craft..Selling makes you a whore.

[Jim collum]

.. which makes every living person a whore?

I've never seen selling my time,craft, art, vision as something negative.


The rub is in selling your craft..Selling makes you a whore.

[mdm]

Precisely. Prostitution is all craft.

[Jerry Bodine]

Great video. Now I'm hungry.

[Tin Can]

Great documentary, very well done. Thanks for the link and I have passed it on to my friend working on a Nelson Algren documentary.

[Joe O'Hara]

Yes. Well said.

+1

[Jim Jones]

But if identical-looking and -tasting sushi could be made with a digital 3D Sushi-printer, wouldn't it have the same value?

Not to many Japanese. They could still feel the difference.

[Darin Boville]

Good film, although it makes you feel a little sad for the sons who are raised in this rigid environment. Speaking of sons, one of them just moved to New York and is serving Sushi there, so you might be able to get a little taste of Jiro without traveling to Tokyo.

--Darin

[C_Remington]

I think it's BS.

I can appreciate the dedication and the sacrifice to a craft but, don't charge me $300 for raw fish on rice.

I LOVE sushi and have eaten it all over the U.S. While his may be good, I'm sure, that in a blind test of sushi from San Francisco to NYC to Japan, NOBODY would be able to pick his out.

Just because someone dedicates their life to making the best Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwich doesn't mean it's awe inspiring and inspirational. I think it's weird.

I just saw how Jack Daniels is made. It's been refined and produced similarly over the last 100+ years. Now there's a dedication to a craft that's practical and reasonable. Why don't we talk about that????

[Jim collum]

yea.. but the same could be said of photography. There are people who would have the same reaction to a $300 photograph. Why would that picture be any different from one you could cut out of a magazine , or download for free


I think it's BS.

I can appreciate the dedication and the sacrifice to a craft but, don't charge me $300 for raw fish on rice.

I LOVE sushi and have eaten it all over the U.S. While his may be good, I'm sure, that in a blind test of sushi from San Francisco to NYC to Japan, NOBODY would be able to pick his out.

Just because someone dedicates their life to making the best Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwich doesn't mean it's awe inspiring and inspirational. I think it's weird.

I just saw how Jack Daniels is made. It's been refined and produced similarly over the last 100+ years. Now there's a dedication to a craft that's practical and reasonable. Why don't we talk about that????

[C_Remington]

yea.. but the same could be said of photography. There are people who would have the same reaction to a $300 photograph. Why would that picture be any different from one you could cut out of a magazine , or download for free

Agreed. I would never pay $300 for a photograph if I could cut it out of a magazine.

Would you??????

[Jim collum]

Agreed. I would never pay $300 for a photograph if I could cut it out of a magazine.

Would you??????

? why would this be surprising (is this a real question?) . i've bought & sold pictures for a lot more than that. I place value on who, how, on what this picture is reproduced. Many, many more see no difference between a magazine copy and a silver, platinum, inkjet copy. I'm sure there are individuals to whom the person preparing, the sauce, choice of fish, method of preparing the sushi rice make a difference.

[C_Remington]

? why would this be surprising (is this a real question?) . i've bought & sold pictures for a lot more than that. I place value on who, how, on what this picture is reproduced. Many, many more see no difference between a magazine copy and a silver, platinum, inkjet copy. I'm sure there are individuals to whom the person preparing, the sauce, choice of fish, method of preparing the sushi rice make a difference.

Maybe I don't appreciate HOW something is created as much as I appreciate WHAT the final creation is, regardless of how it was created.

Or, maybe I can respect HOW something was created but, don't think that has any bearing to WHAT the final product is.

[Jim collum]

Ok. I can appreciate that perspective , and then understand why the reaction to the movie.



Maybe I don't appreciate HOW something is created as much as I appreciate WHAT the final creation is, regardless of how it was created.

Or, maybe I can respect HOW something was created but, don't think that has any bearing to WHAT the final product is.

[Darin Boville]

I can appreciate the dedication and the sacrifice to a craft but, don't charge me $300 for raw fish on rice.

Of course, with the movie (and all the other press coverage prior) it's worth every bit of $300--just for the bragging rights! :)

--Darin

[Nathan Potter]

Great sushi is art, just like great paintings, great wine and photography. All are infused with the special talents and attributes of the maker in a way that elevates the object above the average, or even above most of the best examples. But real appreciation can only come to those who have tried or understand the craft and those who have been exposed to the full range that the discipline has to offer. Cost is irrelevant. Equal greatness can be found in the inexpensive as well as the most expensive.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Bernice Loui]

Thanks for sharing. One very well made film on a what really matters in life. One of the best items to come across LFF in a long time.

Jiro's views and ideas about life can be applied to most things in life. It is much about being passionate about what one does in life, continual growth within and always seeking to better one-self.

Jiro mentions in this film that if he had a better sense of taste or is more sensitive he can make better sushi. The same can be applied to image making, if the image maker/artist develops a greater sensitivity and awareness to what is being created or what is to be created, the resulting images can be of greater significance.

This is way of life is also much about relationships and less about making money..

Anyone notice how happy Jiro is with his life and how he remains passionate about life?


Bernice



The most inspirational film on photography I have seen in some time:

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365134660/

[Bernice Loui]

+1

Bernice



Great sushi is art, just like great paintings, great wine and photography. All are infused with the special talents and attributes of the maker in a way that elevates the object above the average, or even above most of the best examples. But real appreciation can only come to those who have tried or understand the craft and those who have been exposed to the full range that the discipline has to offer. Cost is irrelevant. Equal greatness can be found in the inexpensive as well as the most expensive.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Kirk Gittings]

I think it's BS.

Just because someone dedicates their life to making the best Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwich doesn't mean it's awe inspiring and inspirational. I think it's weird...........

I just saw how Jack Daniels is made. It's been refined and produced similarly over the last 100+ years. Now there's a dedication to a craft that's practical and reasonable. Why don't we talk about that????

Why haven't you talked about JD before? I have no idea. I wouldn't talk about Jack Daniels because I rarely drink hard liquor and have no appreciation for it. You could give me swill and I wouldn't know the difference. That discussion would be meaningless to me.

Sushi on the other hand is something I have some broad experience with and have developed some expectations of quality. I can guarantee that someone who has developed a critical palette for any food can discern the difference in the same way that though I live in New Mexico, where Mexican food is everywhere and I have eaten it all over the continent including all over Mexico, but my favorite Mexican restaurant is Rick Bayless' La Frontera Grill in Chicago-simply in a league by itself and very pricy. My wife is also one of those people with a very discerning palette for many cuisines, including sushi, but that is her business as she is a professional chef. She is incredibly picky about sushi because of the raw fish and can tell how fresh fish is and whether it has been properly handled, stored and prepared in an instant. She can also tell you what "cut" of the fish is being presented, cheek, belly etc. Interestingly enough when we translated the prices mentioned on the show she thought they were quite reasonable given the quality of the process and product.

Hell I get $400 for an 8x10 inkjet and I know, given what goes into it-a lifetime of training and experience, that it is a bargain.

[Jim collum]

I do find it interesting that you'd be drawn to large format photography though, given the appeal of the 'what' vs the 'how'. Large format is mostly about the 'how'... you really can get the 'what' with a lot less trouble.



Maybe I don't appreciate HOW something is created as much as I appreciate WHAT the final creation is, regardless of how it was created.

Or, maybe I can respect HOW something was created but, don't think that has any bearing to WHAT the final product is.

[Kirk Gittings]

I do find it interesting that you'd be drawn to large format photography though, given the appeal of the 'what' vs the 'how'. Large format is mostly about the 'how'... you really can get the 'what' with a lot less trouble.

[Darin Boville]

Great sushi is art, just like great paintings, great wine and photography.

Your idea of art is very different than mine! :)

--Darin

[Darin Boville]

but my favorite Mexican restaurant is Rick Bayless' La Frontera Grill in Chicago-simply in a league by itself

I just discovered Bayless the other day via his cookbooks. I was so impressed by the first one that I bought all the rest. Working my way through basic salsa now--I have a ways to go...good stuff.

--Darin

[Kirk Gittings]

Yes my wife is a big fan of their books and videos, but is most impressed with how professional their restaurants are run and how good their product is.

[C_Remington]

I do find it interesting that you'd be drawn to large format photography though, given the appeal of the 'what' vs the 'how'. Large format is mostly about the 'how'... you really can get the 'what' with a lot less trouble.

Well, like I said, I do enjoy the craft portion of things but, don't think it is an end in itself.

In other words, if, hypothetically, if I'm presented with two IDENTICAL pieces of furniture (or anything else, sushi, etc.) - one made by hand by a craftsman and one made by an assembly line in China - I would expect to pay the same for each.

[Vaughn]

Well, like I said, I do enjoy the craft portion of things but, don't think it is an end in itself.

In other words, if, hypothetically, if I'm presented with two IDENTICAL pieces of furniture (or anything else, sushi, etc.) - one made by hand by a craftsman and one made by an assembly line in China - I would expect to pay the same for each.

1) Agreed. Vision + craft = art I do not consider them two separate things in my process. I need both to produce the quality of the work I desire to make. I believe one needs to develop craft so that one's vision can be given form.

2) Agreed, if one can not tell the difference between the well-crafted and the mass-produced, then s/he should buy the cheaper. If one is incapable of tasting the difference between good and great sushi, then why pay the price of great sushi?

[Tin Can]

Disagree, I will support a craftsperson, as he/she may one day make an innovation, that a factory will never discover. Independent thought and progress often come from tiny sparks.



1) Agreed. Vision + craft = art I do not consider them two separate things in my process. I need both to produce the quality of the work I desire to make. I believe one needs to develop craft so that one's vision can be given form.

2) Agreed, if one can not tell the difference between the well-crafted and the mass-produced, then s/he should buy the cheaper. If one is incapable of tasting the difference between good and great sushi, then why pay the price of great sushi?

[Vaughn]

Randy, I see no cause for disagreement between our statements. I fully support your statement, and nothing I wrote disagrees with it. Sorry if my words are not clear.

[Michael Alpert]

The most inspirational film on photography I have seen in some time

Kirk,

This film-portrait of a man striving for perfection is both an inspiration and a nightmare. I appreciate the fact that Jiro readily admitted that he was not a good father. In fact, he seems to have built a delicious prison for himself and for his sons. But I also think that it is hard to say anything definitive about a situation that is so specifically Japanese. Westerners do not have the same relationship with their tradition, regardless of talent. And I am quite sure that few people in Japan live like Jiro even though they may venerate the heritage that Jiro exemplifies. The training and daily practice of classical musicians is, for me, a more applicable (and accessible) way to think about discipline and craft.

[Kirk Gittings]

Having known a couple of first rate classical musicians, I can assure you sure that few people live like classical musicians either. Nor are they immune to being bad fathers. But the ones I have known lived a mythic life to the public with their foibles well hidden. None were as forthright about their parenting issues or any issues as Jiro and Jiro should be (IMHO) acknowledged for his honesty. Regardless classical musicians are no doubt a good example of craft and dedication, but I enthusiastically stand by my statement. CMs are well recognized their efforts whereas this was a surprise to me to a large extent even though I have many Japanese friends who I have shared sushi with over the years..

[Ed Richards]

The film does not talk much about the conditions in immediate post-war Japan, where such single minded devotion was about survival, not dedication to a craft. Jiro was a shaped by a very different world which did not give him the options of our work/life balance concerns. His is also not a solitary craft - he is more like the master of a studio than a solitary photographer. His real craft is managing and training the team and running the business, not the sushi itself. The same with the chef in any great restaurant - cooking is the least important of the skills, though absolutely vital. It is very hard work, but it is very public - if you are not pleasing the public every day you are out of business. This is not the romantic artisan working to please him/herself. I think it has a lot to say about running a professional photography business, but less to say about pursing photography as an avocation.

[Tin Can]

I worry for survival of craft, and you are correct, we do not disagree. Else, we would not be here now.


Randy, I see no cause for disagreement between our statements. I fully support your statement, and nothing I wrote disagrees with it. Sorry if my words are not clear.

[Michael Alpert]

Having known a couple of first rate classical musicians, I can assure you sure that few people live like classical musicians either. Nor are they immune to being bad fathers. . . .

Yes, yes, over the years I also have rubbed shoulders with some very good classical musicians; and I am not going to say that they are saints or even half-saints. What I was referring to was the training and daily practice of serious musicians. Dedication to craft--I believe that's the main focus of the film and the reason you brought it to the forum. Fatherhood is another topic entirely. I mentioned it to give context to my "delicious prison" remark. I am sure you will agree that self-confinement can be a problem for a dedicated artist. The film, with its abundant praise for Jiro's single-mindedness, makes that point, albeit obliquely.

[jnantz]

thanks for this thread-start ,kirk.
i saw this movie on netflix last year and i have been thinking of it too ...
and another one seen maybe a week later .. also.a pbs film, also was on netflix and like
your link is also on the pbs website .. (between the folds ) about origami.
watching masters do their craft so effortlessly is something i never get tired of.

luckily there are people who know the difference between supermarket /wholesale club sushi
and " good stuff" ...

[Darin Boville]

luckily there are people who know the difference between supermarket /wholesale club sushi
and " good stuff" ...

And then there are people who don't eat endangered/overfished species :)

--Darin

[Mark Sawyer]

And then there are people who don't eat endangered/overfished species :)


And then there are people who don't cut down trees to make paper to print photographs of trees on... :)

[djdister]

And then there are people who don't cut down trees to make paper to print photographs of trees on... :)

Wait, wait, my metaphor-meter just burned out like a thousand points of light.

[Vaughn]

And then there are people who don't cut down trees to make paper to print photographs of trees on... :)

Hey -- I transfer my carbon tissue onto repurposed fogged old photo paper...:cool:

[Mark Sawyer]

Hey -- I transfer my carbon tissue onto repurposed fogged old photo paper...:cool:

Reducing your carbon-footprint, hmmm? :rolleyes:

[Vaughn]

Reducing your carbon-footprint, hmmm? :rolleyes:

Yep -- locking that carbon up tight in the gelatin. I was even pulling my tissue support material out of the university darkroom's trash cans (used litho film) until we stopped using it as much and I started to pour larger tissues. But alas...it definitely is not a vegan process...I buy gelatin 5 pounds at a time... :D

[marfa boomboom tx]

THIS\\\
What is Slow? Why Slow Japan? Where can I find materials in English?

Welcome to the website of SLOW JAPAN.
This website aims to introduce you to the Japanese “Slow Living Movement.”

In July 1999, ten or so people got together in small meeting room in Tokyo and started the Sloth Club. It became a catalyst of the so-called “Slow Life” movement in Japan. It’s creed is “slow is beautiful”. The co-founder of the Sloth Club, Shinichi Tsuji, published the book “Slow is Beautiful” in 2001 and it became a bible for the movement. In such a fast-paced country, many people first didn’t take them seriously. Some people laughed (some even got angry!) at the club members because it didn’t sound practical at all (and besides, how can a movement called “Slow” contribute to the economy?!) But 10 years later, the Sloth Club still exists and the word “slow” has become widely recognized. Now our members grin with mixed feelings when they see the advertisements of fast-paced conventional businesses using the word “Slow” as a marketing term (although of course there are serious business people who have tried to adopt slow concepts into their businesses and are doing a wonderful job).

Slow can be understood to mean alternative, sustainable, ecological, local, and happy. Slow means “to connect”. Connection between people and people, people and nature, north and south, right and left, urban and rural, and more.

FROM\\\
http://slowjapan.wordpress.com/lifestyle/

[jp]

Why We Make Things and Why It Matters: The Education of a Craftsman Hardcover
by Peter Korn

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1567925111

I haven't read it yet, but this guy lives a couple towns over and has received excellent local press for his new book. It's apparently fairly general and not focused on woodworking. Peter Korn has done well teaching people woodworking (for furniture/art) which is a fairly high in craft but commercially marginal in the age of mass production.

[evan clarke]

.. which makes every living person a whore?

I've never seen selling my time,craft, art, vision as something negative.

Selling makes you needy, selling makes you want to do marketing,selling makes you photograph things that will sell..Whores are whores.

[Jim collum]

I'm not sure if you're being serious or not (hard to tell without visual cues sometimes)

So you're saying that anyone who works for a living is seriously a whore?


Selling makes you needy, selling makes you want to do marketing,selling makes you photograph things that will sell..Whores are whores.

[evan clarke]

No, But if one considers photography to be "art", then selling it is bogus. Art should be done for your own fulfillment. The western world is consumed by the need to get money for everything they do and selling is not a mark of achievement..Selling just makes photography product. Think about the crappy products around you, do you want to be oart of that with your photographs? Wal-Pic?

[Jim collum]

No, But if one considers photography to be "art", then selling it is bogus. Art should be done for your own fulfillment. The western world is consumed by the need to get money for everything they do and selling is not a mark of achievement..Selling just makes photography product. Think about the crappy products around you, do you want to be oart of that with your photographs? Wal-Pic?

actually, I'd rather think about the *remarkable* products being sold.. not everything one can buy is crap.. Likewise with art/craft.

I'm not sure how art would exist in the world you propose. A starving artist isn't really a successful artist.. in most cases not being able to eat, or obtain the material one needs to create, results in either a dead artist, or an artist with no means of creating.

I don't create for anyone else, even though I sell. No one dictates what it is I create, other than myself and my experiences in life. But that vision is something that is within me.. part of who I am. The disposition of that vision is mine alone to decide what to do with. If someone else appreciates that vision as much, and is willing to trade their art/craft/time/effort to be able to experience whatever it is that my art has brought up in them.. then it's mutually beneficial. It means that now, I have the means to further create/express my vision of the world around me, and they have something that may move them in the privacy of their own world. It's a conversation between myself and those who want to hear what it is I have to say. If no one wishes to 'listen' to that.. they're not obligated to.. But I'm not going to say something just for them to hear.

[Kirk Gittings]

I don't create for anyone else, even though I sell. No one dictates what it is I create, other than myself and my experiences in life. But that vision is something that is within me.. part of who I am. The disposition of that vision is mine alone to decide what to do with. If someone else appreciates that vision as much, and is willing to trade their art/craft/time/effort to be able to experience whatever it is that my art has brought up in them.. then it's mutually beneficial. It means that now, I have the means to further create/express my vision of the world around me, and they have something that may move them in the privacy of their own world. It's a conversation between myself and those who want to hear what it is I have to say. If no one wishes to 'listen' to that.. they're not obligated to.. But I'm not going to say something just for them to hear.

Well said. In one sentence Evan dismissed most of the great photographers of history including those who profoundly led photography in new and utterly challenging directions. I'm guessing his "payment" is it makes him feel superior? Frankly IMHO, people who build their sense of self by moral posing like this are.........(time to close the thread?).........pathetic.

[Darin Boville]

(time to close the thread?).........pathetic.

Please, don't close *another* thread just because what was being said was counter to the general opinion (and discomforts some). Closed threads and deleted posts are getting all too common here.

Evens' point is a fair one--whether consciously, unconsciously, or from the simple facts of capitalism (pure of heart photographers who happen to make what the market wants prosper, pure of heart photographers who don't, don't)--the market shapes what art you see and buy. It shapes the culture. An awful lot of artists time this wrong and the market is ready for their work only after they have died.

It's a perfectly valid point of view to say that you will try to create work absent the market pressures. Highly noble, in fact. You Ansel Adams disciples will surely remember that Adam's friends complained that he cared too much for the money and played the clown for his rich Sierra Club friends, literally braying like a donkey at parties for laughs.

For my part I have only recently decided to offer my work for sale--haven't offered a print for sale in ten years or so. Mostly this was due to the negative-net-gain effort required to sell work in any meaningful amount. But I did notice the freedom that I enjoyed where before I never noticed the "chains," so to speak.

My view is that money has essentially rotted out the art market, it has come to define it. There's nothing wrong with rejecting money and trying that road.

--Darin

[Tin Can]

What is a 'Vivian Maier'?


Well said. In one sentence Evan dismissed most of the great photographers of history including those who profoundly led photography in new and utterly challenging directions. I'm guessing his "payment" is it makes him feel superior? Frankly IMHO, people who build their sense of self by moral posing like this are.........(time to close the thread?).........pathetic.

[Jim collum]

I'd rather not see the thread closed. I don't agree with Evan, but I've never known anyone who actually believed this.. so it's interesting to me.

How does an artist survive, and produce work that requires materials that might cost something? (in our case, film, lenses, cameras, paper, chemicals, printers, mats, frames, mat cutters, space to display it)

[Tin Can]

I worked as a mechanic all my life and made art with my good wages. Much of my sculpture was unsaleable, but fun to make and show in random public places. Analog photography is my retirement plan, not my income plan.



I'd rather not see the thread closed. I don't agree with Evan, but I've never known anyone who actually believed this.. so it's interesting to me.

How does an artist survive, and produce work that requires materials that might cost something? (in our case, film, lenses, cameras, paper, chemicals, printers, mats, frames, mat cutters, space to display it)

[Jim collum]

i've been lucky as well.. I started software engineering the same time I did photography, back in the late 70's.

But what if art was my only skill?


I worked as a mechanic all my life and made art with my good wages. Much of my sculpture was unsaleable, but fun to make and show in random public places. Analog photography is my retirement plan, not my income plan.

[sanking]

Well said. In one sentence Evan dismissed most of the great photographers of history including those who profoundly led photography in new and utterly challenging directions. I'm guessing his "payment" is it makes him feel superior? Frankly IMHO, people who build their sense of self by moral posing like this are.........(time to close the thread?).........pathetic.

The only reasons to close a thread would be because it violates the rules or has become personal. Evan expressed a view with which we might disagree, but the fact that you don't agree is no reason to close the thread.

In fact, I have known many people with the MFA who teach at colleges and universities who agree with Evan.

Sandy

[Tin Can]

Then you starve. I chose a trade so I would never starve. I can work anywhere with anything. btw, I got a MFA when I was 50 and still a wrench.


i've been lucky as well.. I started software engineering the same time I did photography, back in the late 70's.

But what if art was my only skill?

[jnantz]

Selling makes you needy, selling makes you want to do marketing,selling makes you photograph things that will sell..Whores are whores.

this is the same for anything .. whether it is photography, making food, practicing medicine, writing, shoveling driveways, pumping gas, raking leaves, being a clerk ...
as soon as money enters the image things sometimes change ... unfortunately some people need to survive and if doing something for
payment or barter in return turns everyone who exchanges for a gift, craft, practice &c then the whole world is filled with people who prostitute themselves to survive.

its hard to be a trust fund baby, or independently wealthy or filthy rich and be able to do whatever ( trade, craft, practice &c ) for no exchange ...
i suppose if someone gets praise for something, is that considered bad too ...

[Jim collum]

i've seen works of almost unbearable beauty and genius come out of the 'prostitution' system.. and bland mediocrity from the past experiments in the 'art of the masses'. i choose to be a what you would call a whore (although your words.. not mine.. I don't see my peers framed in such an ugly way)

[Michael Alpert]

Kirk started this thread to highlight an example of a man dedicated to his craft. It is good to be reminded that craft itself can motivate a person with talent. The question about money is important (each of us needs to find some way to make a livelihood), but it is a side issue. Even Ansel Adams made a meager income from photography until late in life. Edward Weston lived an austere existence because his income was dismal. Artists with more financial resources sometimes do well and sometimes fail. Artists who teach at universities sometimes feel that their art has become stale while others thrive in academic surroundings. The point is that there are many ways to construct an imaginative life. Forum members arguing about income seem to have forgetten that diversity is the name of the game.

[cowanw]

I wish that the ultimate expression of degradation in business was not the word whore. Sex trade workers work like everybody else, Trading what they have to offer, often under circumstances that make life very hard. It is unpleasant, demeaning and wrong to think theirs' is the most degraded form of business.
I think liars are worse.

[evan clarke]

OK, the deal is that analog photography is a niche in the modern world, a labor of love. If you adjust your photographic interests so you can sell prints, you have sold your soul. DO SOMETHING BECAUSE YOU JUST LOVE IT...

[csxcnj]

Selling makes you needy, selling makes you want to do marketing,selling makes you photograph things that will sell..Whores are whores.

From your profile, "Occupation:I make fancy pool cues"

I googled fancy pool cues and they are expensive, involve artfully done woods, engravings, marquetry, inlays, chatter work etc. depending on the design. A combination of craft and art that can cost several thousands of dollars.

Evan, guess what? You're a WHORE! Unless of course you're just giving them away, but you did list it as your occupation.

I find your definition of people who sell their photographs poorly reasoned, borderline elitist and insulting. But that's okay, it's a big wide world with lots of ways of looking at it.

Happy. New Year

[Tin Can]

+1


I wish that the ultimate expression of degradation in business was not the word whore. Sex trade workers work like everybody else, Trading what they have to offer, often under circumstances that make life very hard. It is unpleasant, demeaning and wrong to think theirs' is the most degraded form of business.
I think liars are worse.

[evan clarke]

I have made around $20 million of these pool cues and feel dirty every time I have to capitulate with the customer..

[evan clarke]

So, Bob are you a "photographic artist"? Needy for fulfillment? Can't decide about your own work? Need to please somebody else to feel good about yourself?

[Jim collum]

I have made around $20 million of these pool cues and feel dirty every time I have to capitulate with the customer..

... and I feel fantastic, a sense of accomplishment in having produced something that someone besides myself holds in value. I spoke, and someone listened, and understood.

and it provided a little more material for me to continue my conversations.

My work is a two way processes. Talking in the dark, with no one to listen, doesn't seem as fulfilling

[evan clarke]

Analog photography has lost it's way as a profession. It's a hobby. If you want to fool yourself about selling prints at a pathetic art show, go nuts. In reality, just make photographs for yourself..

[evan clarke]

... and I feel fantastic, a sense of accomplishment in having produced something that someone besides myself holds in value. I spoke, and someone listened, and understood.

and it provided a little more material for me to continue my conversations.

My work is a two way processes. Talking in the dark, with no one to listen, doesn't seem as fulfilling

We are all in the dark..especially if we need to judge ourselves by what somebody else thinks about our work.. Who do you want to please? Who do you want to do your thinking. The OP titled this " On craft and life". I'm old and have crafted all my life..Pleasing others doesn't please me..If your measure of yourself is based on somebody else's opinion, the whore word applies.

[Jim collum]

I have made around $20 million of these pool cues and feel dirty every time I have to capitulate with the customer..

i don't understand why you'd subject your self to this self imposed degradation. That's what's puzzling. If you hate that so much, (and you must despise yourself as well for not having the willpower to stop from selling), why not just create pool cues, stack them in a closet, and do something much less degrading?

[Jim collum]

We are all in the dark..

you may be.. i'm not. I know very few people who are. Most artists I know feel enlightened by the work they produce

[evan clarke]

you may be.. i'm not. I know very few people who are. Most artists I know feel enlightened by the work they produce

Enlightened by the work or the praise they receive? People will tell you your stuff is wonderful and then turn around and degrade you, yet you will photograph to please them. It's a fool's game..Let's label ourselves as "artists". How foppish. MY POINT IS THAT ON ART AND CRAFT, THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOU DO IT FOR YOUR SELF. IF OTHERS ENJOY IT, WONDERFUL.

[evan clarke]

If your yardstick is how your photographs sell, go to Walmart and see the stuff that REALLY sells.

[csxcnj]

So, Bob are you a "photographic artist"? Needy for fulfillment? Can't decide about your own work? Need to please somebody else to feel good about yourself?

Not at all. I don't sell photos for a living but I know three people who do successfully.

But your response is telling. There is no difference between what you do and what a photographer does in that both rely on technical skills and artistic skills. You got lucky and now are well off, so can sit back and make pompous, jackass, small minded statements that are beginning to sound like troll bait.

[jnantz]

I have made around $20 million of these pool cues and feel dirty every time I have to capitulate with the customer..

maybe you should give away your pool cues and photographs and you will feel better
that is what i do ..

[evan clarke]

I do give my photographs away. I am stuck in making cues for a living.. I am a whore.

[evan clarke]

Not at all. I don't sell photos for a living but I know three people who do successfully.

But your response is telling. There is no difference between what you do and what a photographer does in that both rely on technical skills and artistic skills. You got lucky and now are well off, so can sit back and make pompous, jackass, small minded statements that are beginning to sound like troll bait.

Troll? I am serious about this at a level you can't understand. I breath photography but won't appraise what I do based on selling photographs. Selling is a bery short yardstick.

[evan clarke]

All of you artists are very sensitive..it's not art anymore if you NEED to sell it. My cues are expensive but just some more stinking product. I'm stuck, I need to take care of my wife who's had three rounds of cancer, or I wouldn't make another stinking cue. I make photographs for myself and I'm extremely deep into the consideration of craft and life, mired in it.

[Kirk Gittings]

So therefore because one chooses not to get involved in trying to make a living from their art/craft one refers to everyone else who does as whores? You are serious defending that?


Please, don't close *another* thread just because what was being said was counter to the general opinion (and discomforts some). Closed threads and deleted posts are getting all too common here.

Evens' point is a fair one--whether consciously, unconsciously, or from the simple facts of capitalism (pure of heart photographers who happen to make what the market wants prosper, pure of heart photographers who don't, don't)--the market shapes what art you see and buy. It shapes the culture. An awful lot of artists time this wrong and the market is ready for their work only after they have died.

It's a perfectly valid point of view to say that you will try to create work absent the market pressures. Highly noble, in fact. You Ansel Adams disciples will surely remember that Adam's friends complained that he cared too much for the money and played the clown for his rich Sierra Club friends, literally braying like a donkey at parties for laughs.

For my part I have only recently decided to offer my work for sale--haven't offered a print for sale in ten years or so. Mostly this was due to the negative-net-gain effort required to sell work in any meaningful amount. But I did notice the freedom that I enjoyed where before I never noticed the "chains," so to speak.

My view is that money has essentially rotted out the art market, it has come to define it. There's nothing wrong with rejecting money and trying that road.

--Darin

[Kirk Gittings]

Enlightened by the work or the praise they receive? People will tell you your stuff is wonderful and then turn around and degrade you, yet you will photograph to please them. It's a fool's game..Let's label ourselves as "artists". How foppish. MY POINT IS THAT ON ART AND CRAFT, THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOU DO IT FOR YOUR SELF. IF OTHERS ENJOY IT, WONDERFUL.

And if others "enjoy it" and buy it that makes the artist a whore?

[Kirk Gittings]

In fact, I have known many people with the MFA who teach at colleges and universities who agree with Evan.

Sandy

I haven't, not once in nearly 3 decades teaching at universities.

[evan clarke]

Kirk, You have hit on the essence of it, If people BUY it, excellent. If you are selling it, it's another story. My point is that you must do the things you do for pure reasons.

[evan clarke]

I've been mired in this issue for 50 years and know that the act of selling has no bearing on my value as a person. The thread is titled "On craft and life". I have serious input. Kirk, if you get up in the morning and need to sell something to get by, does that fulfill you?

[evan clarke]

actually, I'd rather think about the *remarkable* products being sold.. not everything one can buy is crap.. Likewise with art/craft.

I'm not sure how art would exist in the world you propose. A starving artist isn't really a successful artist.. in most cases not being able to eat, or obtain the material one needs to create, results in either a dead artist, or an artist with no means of creating.

I don't create for anyone else, even though I sell. No one dictates what it is I create, other than myself and my experiences in life. But that vision is something that is within me.. part of who I am. The disposition of that vision is mine alone to decide what to do with. If someone else appreciates that vision as much, and is willing to trade their art/craft/time/effort to be able to experience whatever it is that my art has brought up in them.. then it's mutually beneficial. It means that now, I have the means to further create/express my vision of the world around me, and they have something that may move them in the privacy of their own world. It's a conversation between myself and those who want to hear what it is I have to say. If no one wishes to 'listen' to that.. they're not obligated to.. But I'm not going to say something just for them to hear.
Then, you agree with me.

[Jim collum]

as said before.. i don't photograph for anyone but myself.. however.. if someone values it enough to trade with me their effort in life.. whether it be something I hold of equal value (possibly a piece of their art? maybe a lens?) or of some abstract we have all decided on using to represent our effort in (money).. then i make the trade. And in doing so, it pleases me greatly that I can see something, and I can share that vision with someone who cherishes it as much as i do. As I've said.. I view art as a conversation between my self and someone.. anyone.. It's not a solitary endeavor. It requires someone to converse with. That person my be a plumber, or a maker of pool cues. Since I need neither, we have decided upon an abstract called money to represent that what we do.. and they are willing to trade their effort for my 'words' We both win

I also 'listen' to other photographers.. those who's words move me.. I will trade my effort to have those words available to me when i might need them. You're the only one in this thread who equates art with Walmart. The art found there says nothing to me..

So I spend my days working as a software engineer. My true passion is my photography. And you're telling me it's a bad thing (a very bad thing) for me to be able to spend those hours during the days working at my art. It's a good thing for me to spend hours away from that doing something that doesn't bring me as much pleasure and parcel out minutes here and there to create my art?

you live in a very dark, miserable and depressing world

I don't.




If your yardstick is how your photographs sell, go to Walmart and see the stuff that REALLY sells.

[evan clarke]

Do any of you guys know what it means to be stuck with a skill and tortured and imprisoned by it? Do you like to do THINGS because you HAVE TO? Do you like to rationalize your opinion of yourself by the yardstick of sales. Do you like your job because you like it? What would you do with no restrictions from life or opinions? I would make photographs for me.

[evan clarke]

as said before.. i don't photograph for anyone but myself.. however.. if someone values it enough to trade with me their effort in life.. whether it be something I hold of equal value (possibly a piece of their art? maybe a lens?) or of some abstract we have all decided on using to represent our effort in (money).. then i make the trade. And in doing so, it pleases me greatly that I can see something, and I can share that vision with someone who cherishes it as much as i do. As I've said.. I view art as a conversation between my self and someone.. anyone.. It's not a solitary endeavor. It requires someone to converse with. That person my be a plumber, or a maker of pool cues. Since I need neither, we have decided upon an abstract called money to represent that what we do.. and they are willing to trade their effort for my 'words' We both win

I also 'listen' to other photographers.. those who's words move me.. I will trade my effort to have those words available to me when i might need them. You're the only one in this thread who equates art with Walmart. The art found there says nothing to me..

So I spend my days working as a software engineer. My true passion is my photography. And you're telling me it's a bad thing (a very bad thing) for me to be able to spend those hours during the days working at my art. It's a good thing for me to spend hours away from that doing something that doesn't bring me as much pleasure and parcel out minutes here and there to create my art?

you live in a very dark, miserable and depressing world

I don't.
No, I'm saying that if you measure your your photography by selling, that's a bad thing. I am in a dark place, approaching the end of my life, in pain and realizing that pleasing others has been fruitless, a sellout. How does software make you feel?

[Jim collum]

No, I'm saying that if you measure your your photography by selling, that's a bad thing. I am in a dark place, approaching the end of my life, in pain and realizing that pleasing others has been fruitless, a sellout. How does software make you feel?


it makes me feel good.. over the years I have created things that others enjoy, have found useful. Currently, what I do affects billions of people in one way or another. That hasn't always been the case.. often it's only useful to hundreds or thousands... But I have enjoyed the effort. I like the interaction between the machine and my mind. It's the 2nd most favorite thing I could be doing.

the first being photography.

I'm sorry your life has felt fruitless. I love my life.. what I have produced. I love my photography. I love that others (not a lot.. but many) love what I can see with a camera. I'd still do it if no one liked it. But I won't apologize, nor feel bad, nor consider myself less than a positive spiritual being. Your views are so far from my, and all who i know's, reality.. That's one of the reasons i've pursued this conversation.

[csxcnj]

Troll? I am serious about this at a level you can't understand. I breath photography but won't appraise what I do based on selling photographs. Selling is a bery short yardstick.

Okay, you're too "deep" for me. But why belittle others while expressing your views?

One of my friends who makes a living with his photography does the following: from January to March he travels to a different part of the world. He goes to places that cost him in a month what he would spend for a one week stay in London or Paris. He stays with people he meets and befriends along the way or at hostels and the like. Name the ass end of the world and Avner has been there. Last year he started at the bottom of Argentina and hitchhiked his way up to Columbia where he caught a flight home.

Along the way he stayed in villages, towns and cities and visited all parts of them from the slums to the nice places. He photographs the heart and soul of the people and places he visits. In Columbia he met someone who snuck him in to one of the silver mines where he documented the horrifiying conditions there.

And then he comes home and sells the rest of the year at mostly art fairs, markets etc. and to NGO's, corporate offices etc. from time to time. Avner loves photography, loves people and loves it that his photography is appreciated by enough people that he makes a living from it that satisfies him.

Paraphrasing Its A Wonderful Life now..."But to you a warped, frustrated old man, he's just a whore..."

I don't know, I've seen lots of arguments, trolls, crazy things on many forums but I've never gotten involved in one of them like this. But when I thinks of my friends who sell photos and read your statements you just offend me. I've said my piece, I'm out.

To the Forum, a Happy and safe New Year to you all. This is my favorite place on the web to visit. Thanks.

Bob

[Darin Boville]

Not to change the topic from piling Evan, but I have to ask:

Evan, is there any connection between you/your company and the online photographer Mike Johnston? I'm reading pool posts over there and suddenly I'm seeing pool cues over here. It's unusual, I'm curious.

Shifting gears a bit, when I was young it became clear to me that as a photographer I'd have to start doing work with an eye to selling it if I wanted to be a real photographer (i.e. be able to afford to do it in the first place). It was also clear that I would never win any NFA grants since I wasn't "plugged in." So I came up with a saying, "Build your own NFA," meaning find some way of funding your own work to keep it going while at the same time insulating it from the pressure to make art that was more appealing to average people.

There a lot of different ways to measure the success of whatever strategy you choose as an artist but the metric for the minimum level of success is surely the question "Were you able to keep producing good work?"

--Darin

[evan clarke]

it makes me feel good.. over the years I have created things that others enjoy, have found useful. Currently, what I do affects billions of people in one way or another. That hasn't always been the case.. often it's only useful to hundreds or thousands... But I have enjoyed the effort. I like the interaction between the machine and my mind. It's the 2nd most favorite thing I could be doing.

the first being photography.

I'm sorry your life has felt fruitless. I love my life.. what I have produced. I love my photography. I love that others (not a lot.. but many) love what I can see with a camera. I'd still do it if no one liked it. But I won't apologize, nor feel bad, nor consider myself less than a positive spiritual being. Your views are so far from my, and all who i know's, reality.. That's one of the reasons i've pursued this conversation.
Thanks, Jim. It's a real trial for me, the question of why to get up and do what I do. I am in a bad place, have spent decades trying to please others and now realize it could have been a silly endeavor. I'm not trying to be mean, rather trying to dissuade people from hoping to be the next rock and roll star. We must do what we do for pure reasons, if people wish to buy it, that's a real compliment. If you have to SELL it, maybe not

[evan clarke]

The thread is "On craft and life ". I do both and am trying to be honest about my feelings..persecute me for honesty..

[evan clarke]

Hi Darin, No, he's just a fan. I've been a slave all my life , trying to make good things and please others. I do photography in order to enjoy the world without pleasing anybody else. My point in this thread is that selling stuff isn't a measure of one's value and that we should all do what we do for the pure interest.

[evan clarke]

The bottom lines is that if you don't want the answer, don't pose the question..

[Jim collum]

i appreciate your honesty. I may not agree with your philosophy though. I can understand how difficulties may bring about a negative outlook on one's place in the universe, , and there have been moments where i've felt 'not heard' with my art. I have debates with friends on how much of an audience is necessary for a conversation.

There are times I wish that more would put value in my vision.. but I can't change how I see. So with that I am content. If I wanted, I know how to make pictures that sell to the masses. I can go to many of the tourist spots and see what does and doesn't work with a market. I know enough technical/craft, that I can emulate most styles.

But I won't begrudge Michael Kenna, Roman Loranc, or any of those who can earn a living producing what their heart feels, and eyes see. They bring joy to both themselves and to those who might appreciate what they're saying.



The thread is "On craft and life ". I do both and am trying to be honest about my feelings..persecute me for honesty..

[evan clarke]

Hi Jim,
I think people want to buy what they make, I don't think they re trying to sell. It's a really subtle issue.

[Kirk Gittings]

Kirk, You have hit on the essence of it, If people BUY it, excellent. If you are selling it, it's another story. My point is that you must do the things you do for pure reasons.


I've been mired in this issue for 50 years and know that the act of selling has no bearing on my value as a person. The thread is titled "On craft and life". I have serious input. Kirk, if you get up in the morning and need to sell something to get by, does that fulfill you?

Evan, I am beginning to understand where you are coming from. I think the word whore put me off. Using that word does seem aimed at getting peoples back up.

Look, I have to do something to pay the bills. I come from a lower middle class working family. There is nothing to fall back on but my labor. I have to sell my commercial photography, that's what pays the bills and keeps the bank away from my door. Thats what put the kids through college. But that is not to say that I haven't attempted to excel with it and satisfy my own aesthetic and craft demands with it. I do sell my art work and while that income is useful it is not necessary-it largely pays for the materials and gas. I would do it anyway as it is the thing in my life that is the most satisfying-but since I don't "need" the money, it allows me to do what the hell I want-if it sells great-if not that's ok too. I mainly show in museums and institutions-not commercial galleries. My sales largely come from people who see those shows. Whenever I have thought about making art photos for a market the images have failed miserably in the market and ultimately for myself personally.

[evan clarke]

Evan, I am beginning to understand where you are coming from. I think the word whore put me off. Using that word does seem aimed at getting peoples back up.

Look, I have to do something to pay the bills. I come from a lower middle class working family. There is nothing to fall back on but my labor. I have to sell my commercial photography, that's what pays the bills and keeps the bank away from my door. Thats what put the kids through college. But that is not to say that I haven't attempted to excel with it and satisfy my own aesthetic and craft demands with it. I do sell my art work and while that income is useful it is not necessary-it largely pays for the materials and gas. I would do it anyway as it is the thing in my life that is the most satisfying-but since I don't "need" the money, it allows me to do what the hell I want-if it sells great-if not that's ok too. I mainly show in museums and institutions-not commercial galleries. My sales largely come from people who see those shows. Whenever I have thought about making art photos for a market the images have failed miserably in the market and ultimately for myself personally.
Hi Kirk, I'm sorry I used the word but it's frustrating to try and excel and then need sales. I wish the world was based on pure objectives, I'm old and see the error of my ways...too late to correct my previous actions.

[sanking]

I haven't, not once in nearly 3 decades teaching at universities.

What Evan said to which I referred was this.

"No, But if one considers photography to be "art", then selling it is bogus. Art should be done for your own fulfillment. The western world is consumed by the need to get money for everything they do and selling is not a mark of achievement..Selling just makes photography product. Think about the crappy products around you, do you want to be oart of that with your photographs? Wal-Pic? "

Are you serious in that you have never heard these ideas expressed by any of your colleagues in the art departments at the places where you have taught?

Sandy

[Darin Boville]

Hi Kirk, I'm sorry I used the word but it's frustrating to try and excel and then need sales. I wish the world was based on pure objectives, I'm old and see the error of my ways...too late to correct my previous actions.

My way of thinking is that it's always too late to correct previous actions.

The past is all sunk costs, of course. Might as well make peace with it.

The future however, is all about new investment of time, money, and emotion. Don't let the past dictate your future.

Easier said than done, I realize--but a guiding principle nonetheless.

--Darin

[evan clarke]

Darin, I have little future, thus the problem. I am reflecting on my mistakes and this post shot me in the gut.

[Bill Burk]

I dreamed about Jiro last night. I was so absurd, walked up to the door, peeked in and asked if I could take his portrait. In my dream I apologised for almost giving him a heart attack by yelling "Hey Jiro" as he walked to the escalator, I tried to catch him before he could fall. He turned and was very pleasant... agreed to allow me to take his picture... and at least two perfect opportunities (still in a dream) I hadn't pulled the dark slide or couldn't get the tripod planted. Another odd part of the dream, every time I turned to do something, somebody would put my camera or tripod away. The entire time he was patient with me and not at all annoyed.

[Kirk Gittings]

Sandy no, I of course have heard of this philosophy, but I have never known a university or college level art professor who worked in a tangible art form like sculpture, painting, photography (as opposed to say performance art or pure conceptual art) who didn't sell their work.

FWIW from back in the day in the late 60's and early seventies, it was not cool for art professors to emphasize sales too much until Warhol came along and made marketing "cool".

[djdister]

I've been mired in this issue for 50 years and know that the act of selling has no bearing on my value as a person. The thread is titled "On craft and life". I have serious input. Kirk, if you get up in the morning and need to sell something to get by, does that fulfill you?

I would say that anyone who gets up in the morning and doesn't have to work and/or sell something to "get by" is either a wealthy sonofabitch (and lucky) person, or else is a bum living rough...

[jb7]

Darin, I have little future, thus the problem. I am reflecting on my mistakes and this post shot me in the gut.

When I read your initial post, I thought we had a troll, a gratuitously offensive tirade aimed at practically everyone. If that comment had been turned inward instead, as later posts would seem to indicate, then we might have been a little quicker to the nub of the matter.

I've seen your pool cues, they look well made and finished, and it seems they sell- however, I've also seen comments on internet forums, and as you well know, these forums are not filled with universal glowing appreciation.

You don't seem to be in need of anything materially, as evidenced by your litany of camera purchases through the years and the value of your business, and being in such a position might colour your views about what is important to you- but others will have a different perspective.

I'd like to know, if you can tell me, what it is in particular that has made you so disillusioned with the relationship between craft and life? And perhaps, how it might have been if you happened to have found yourself without a market for your talents, which, by your own admission, have made you rich? If you hadn't sold anything for the last fifty years, might you now have a different view, by necessity?

And I'm sorry for your troubles...


joseph

[Michael Alpert]

Evan,

This turned out to be a far more personal and important discussion than I thought it was going to be. All I can say in response is that I know that kindness should not stop when a sensitive person considers his own life. I wish you well.

[sanking]

FWIW from back in the day in the late 60's and early seventies, it was not cool for art professors to emphasize sales too much until Warhol came along and made marketing "cool".

"Back in the day" in this context goes back a lot farther than the 60s and 70s. The concept that art is important for its own sake comes out of French philosophy of the 19th century, "l'art pour l'art", and continued through the period of vanguard art movements of the early 20th century.

Sandy

[Sal Santamaura]

The problem with this thread began when the "A" word was invoked. Namely, "art." It's as meaningless as another photography-related "A" word: "archival." Neither have precise, useful definitions. Both are squishy, perception-based loose concepts that can, and frequently do, signify different things to every person hearing them. "Craft," which Kirk's thread title invokes, is a more functional word. Variability of understanding "craft's" meaning among readers is much smaller. Most probably operate with a similar definition of "craft."

Unless one has passions for agriculture, weaving and construction, in which case it would be possible to single-handedly obtain food, shelter and clothing while only engaging in those activities out of pure interest, or is independently wealthy, there will always be a need to "sell oneself" in the pursuit of cash. That cash is then used as a medium of exchange to obtain food, shelter and clothing.

After a brief time pursuing photographic work in my late teens, I decided that continuing on that path would simply ruin an enjoyable hobby. Instead, I obtained an engineering degree and spent the next 46 years as a corporate wage slave in cubicle farms. It was, with few and brief exceptions, totally unsatisfying, but provided all the food, shelter and clothing I and my family needed, as well as some disposable income used to pursue photography. Acceptance of reality is often difficult, but life for most people is real in this way. That some choose their passions as a livelihood and continue finding pleasure in them means they're better at coping with reality than Evan and I are. I congratulate them and hope they enjoy ongoing success and contentment in 2014.

[mdm]

I think Atget had it right. Sell your documents to the snotty artists.

[Jac@stafford.net]

When I was a kid we had "Arts and Crafts".
What failed as Craft was called Art.

[Bernice Loui]

Software, Computer code can very well be art and a craft. This is what happened at the first Code Poetry at Stanford U.
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/december/code-poetry-slam-122013.html

But, what meaning does code poetry hold or can express for those who do not understand or is fluent in that specific language?

Art created by a member of humanity can hold much of who that creator is along with the many environmental factors that shaped that the artist/creator.
Those who appreciate these creations best tend to be individuals who share the same language and understanding.

For many years Ansel Adams did not find the monetary success that he felt was always lacking in his life until one day when he had a MBA student in one of his workshops that worked with Ansel to "market" his images.. The rest was history. The wide distribution of Ansel's images brought great interest to the National Parks, increased efforts to preserve them (sadly over use and abuse), interest in LF image making, monetary piles to Ansel & all involved and more.. Yet IMO, there were better artist than Ansel that never got this degree of fame and notoriety.


Bernice











So I spend my days working as a software engineer. My true passion is my photography. And you're telling me it's a bad thing (a very bad thing) for me to be able to spend those hours during the days working at my art. It's a good thing for me to spend hours away from that doing something that doesn't bring me as much pleasure and parcel out minutes here and there to create my art?

[Darin Boville]

For many years Ansel Adams did not find the monetary success that he felt was always lacking in his life until one day when he had a MBA student in one of his workshops that worked with Ansel to "market" his images......Yet IMO, there were better artist than Ansel that never got this degree of fame and notoriety.
Bernice

Of course, all of Ansel's famous images were produced before, usually decades before, Billl Turnage came along in the last dozen years on Ansel's life.

(And as a side note, it is due to Turnage's stranglehold on the money-making images that there has been so little scholarly effort on Adams, so few serious exhibitions of his work, so few books that aren't from Turnage's inner circle. All contrary to Adam's stated wishes, of course. I fear it may be Turnage's legacy that diminishes Adam's legacy, not enhances it.)

--Darin

[Kirk Gittings]

Same is true of the Georgia O'Keefe foundation/trust. They consider it a "brand" that must be protected and profited from. They even attempted to have her name removed from an elementary school here, even though Georgia dedicated it when it opened.

To be clear, Ansel was incredibly famous long before Turnage and long before he was rich.

[Drew Wiley]

Why am I sick of the letter "A", esp when used in a pair? It's not the associated images or career I dislike, but merely the stuck record.

[Bernice Loui]

Remember the Juan Hamilton inheritance legal fiasco...

Protecting the "brand" by those who continue to profit from the work of the artist.


Bernice



Same is true of the Georgia O'Keefe foundation/trust. They consider it a "brand" that must be protected and profited from. They even attempted to have her name removed from an elementary school here, even though Georgia dedicated it when it opened.

To be clear, Ansel was incredibly famous long before Turnage and long before he was rich.

[csxcnj]

Evan, first thing. Do not use my email anymore to send personal attacks and obscenity. This is a specific request.

Quoting you from previous posts:

"Do any of you guys know what it means to be stuck with a skill and tortured and imprisoned by it? Do you like to do THINGS because you HAVE TO? Do you like to rationalize your opinion of yourself by the yardstick of sales. Do you like your job because you like it? What would you do with no restrictions from life or opinions? I would make Photographs.."

"...I've been a slave all my life , trying to make good things and please others. I do photography in order to enjoy the world without pleasing anybody else. My point in this thread is that selling stuff isn't a measure of one's value and that we should all do what we do for the pure interest."

Sorry you feel you were a SLAVE all your working life. I have a feeling at least 90% of the worlds population would trade places with you, what ever your life's problems are. I think you need some perspective on that. I hope you find some.

Having almost died 5 years ago I can say that if you're still living, every day is a blessing, no matter what kind of trouble or heartache it brings.

The last statement of yours quoted is a big step back from your first one. I think it is unrealistic and disconnected from the reality of what the world is but it doesn't denigrate people anywhere near what your "whore" statement did.

Bob Smith

[NancyP]

If a photograph of beer looked good and helped the brewery make money, then that's worthwhile. The brewery needs that photo for its advertisement. If the photo "works", the viewer will start salivating - and anticipation is pleasant. "Commercial" doesn't mean "bad", "popular" doesn't mean "bad". Arthur Sullivan longed to be remembered as a serious classical composer. He gave great pleasure to the world as the composer of light opera (Gilbert, the librettist, and Sullivan). Many more people have enjoyed his light opera output than have enjoyed the serious opera output of Benjamin Britten, another highly productive composer for the stage. (I enjoy both composers).

Look at commercial photography as being analogous to engineering or medicine, and fine art photography as being analogous to basic science. I am disappointed that I didn't make any important scientific discoveries but assuage that disappointment with the knowledge that I have served patients with my diagnostic skills and taught the next generation of doctors and pathologists. Definitely my clinical job of pathologist has a strong craft element.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Same is true of the Georgia O'Keefe foundation/trust. They consider it a "brand" that must be protected .

It is largely about greed, no?

When one of my brothers first published on the 'net his page with original scholarship regarding Duchamp, in particular Duchamp's Large Glass, he was threatened by an ad hoc group. His reply? "Make my day." Their threats dissolved.

His site: http://www.understandingduchamp.com/author/duchamp.html