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smithdoor
29-Nov-2013, 08:07
For what its worth (I was read on another forum [Wedding photography rates?])

When I am pricing out a quoted price is always better than by the hour
I give at less
1. some detail what is including (time on job site, number of photos and if book is made(
2. when I will be done with the work (photos and books)
3. some detail of quality , equipment and materials you use.
4. What not included and will not do

I have work in Manufacturing Hangar doors, Custom work machine work and gunsmith I not been ever paid for photography work
Ever one was happy even if had to go back the quote and say it was not in the quote and will be happy to do that for this price
This save and made a lot of money for me and almost all time they happy too. They will be one or two a year that will need some free just give them a few thing and will save you lot of headache then next time change them extra for the headache,

Note: By the hour is almost always they will say you took to long so and so would do it for $xxxx.xx

Good luck
Dave

C_Remington
29-Nov-2013, 11:08
Huh????

smithdoor
29-Nov-2013, 14:21
TYPO
This site does not let me edit after 2 hours


Huh????

Andrew O'Neill
29-Nov-2013, 19:14
So what you are saying is never work by the hour. Tell client what you will and will not do for them and how long it will take. Show some examples of your work so client gets an idea of what you can do for them.

Kirk Gittings
29-Nov-2013, 19:17
I'm not sure if English is your primary language but I have had trouble understanding your posts since you joined. The OP above is incomprehensible to me. You might want to start over with your question.

Daniel Stone
29-Nov-2013, 19:39
A wise man told me long ago "It's easier to go down on price than to go up"

•Don't underestimate your worth(really think about this: "What is MY(your) TIME worth?)
•Bill accordingly for materials(including marking up saleable items like prints/products/etc if you're selling something to them(like an album, etc.))
•Make things simple to understand(not just for them, but also for you) on your pricing schedule & product offering.

Michael Clark
29-Nov-2013, 20:37
Don't know how a wedding photographers charge know, back in the 80's the studio I worked for charged by which package the Bride and Groom selected. It was an end product from start to finish, the only extra charges would be for extra prints or keeping the photographer on location longer than the agreed time which did not happen very often. But now with digital I would not think its not to much different, I don't know. Working by the hour at a wedding would be awful stressful to me but I'm much older too.

AtlantaTerry
30-Nov-2013, 05:59
In general quoting any photography job by calculating time is a bad idea.

Several things can happen:
1. if you take less time, the client will "suddenly" find more work for you to do
2. if you want more time the client will fight you about paying for it and you will likely (sadly) agree costing you money
3. if you need to take more time to do a good job the client will start to pressure you to finish on time thereby compromising the quality of your work product. Of course, later on they will forget that they pressured you and insist that the work received was not good enough therefore you should reshoot.

What is better is to quote on each finished edited product (wedding albums or framed portraits or mounted LF transparencies or whatever...).
The advantages of quoting on a per item basis are:
1. no time pressure to finish early
2. if the client wants to add "surprise" work they know up front what it will cost them
3. no stress on your part to take as much time as needed to do a good job
4. everyone knows the money involved up front - there are no surprises

This subject brings up the fact that I think "packages" are a bad idea. The more work you do, the less you get paid! That would work if we were cranking out 10,000 chocolate chip cookies per day because with something like that there is what is called "Economy of Scale". But when creating photographs such as weddings, portraits, product shots, architectural views, etc. each image has to be lit, composed, photographed, processed individually. There is NO economy of scale (other than machine-made enlargements).

/end rant

C_Remington
30-Nov-2013, 07:02
Terry, you're post has lots of contradictions.

In general I think any artist trying to bridge the chasm to businessman is challenged beyond his core competencies. It's not obvious at first but it becomes painfully so when it is time to settle up with their customer.

I think many artists want to be paid to be an artist.

"You can't rush art!"
"It costs what it costs"
"Do you want it done right or do you want it done cheaply?"


Further, if a service provider really is an expert, he should be able to work in either billing model; fixed, project base, or hourly, with the same result. It all comes down to:

1. Truly KNOWING you can do what you say you will do because you've done it a hundred times and you've experienced all the issues, know the risks, how to mitigate them, etc.
2. You can accurately calculate the cost of materials
3. You are firm on how to charge for your time and are consistent
4. And most importantly, you can manage along the way for scope creep and change management
5. You can communicate clearly up front, during, and after with your customer

You need to put together a REAL estimate with CLEAR deliverables and timing expectations.


As a buyer/customer, I try to NEVER agree to an hourly agreement with ANY service provider. I ask for an estimate. After negotiating (I also never accept the first offer) and we agree on final deliverable, cost and timing it's on.


Any change in deliverable (scope of service) or timing will result in a change in cost.

smithdoor
30-Nov-2013, 11:02
I agree this statement
Never say to your self or your client "this it only take 1 or 2 hours and low cost Film Processing only cost".

Back in the 70's I knew a Wedding photography He and his two sons start . They had four employes working only the one son and the father part of time did the photographic work. The rest work on photo after the weddings were over and all photo was processed by others. Bottom line remember there is a lot of work after the shots are done.

Dave



Terry, you're post has lots of contradictions.

In general I think any artist trying to bridge the chasm to businessman is challenged beyond his core competencies. It's not obvious at first but it becomes painfully so when it is time to settle up with their customer.

I think many artists want to be paid to be an artist.

"You can't rush art!"
"It costs what it costs"
"Do you want it done right or do you want it done cheaply?"


Further, if a service provider really is an expert, he should be able to work in either billing model; fixed, project base, or hourly, with the same result. It all comes down to:

1. Truly KNOWING you can do what you say you will do because you've done it a hundred times and you've experienced all the issues, know the risks, how to mitigate them, etc.
2. You can accurately calculate the cost of materials
3. You are firm on how to charge for your time and are consistent
4. And most importantly, you can manage along the way for scope creep and change management
5. You can communicate clearly up front, during, and after with your customer

You need to put together a REAL estimate with CLEAR deliverables and timing expectations.


As a buyer/customer, I try to NEVER agree to an hourly agreement with ANY service provider. I ask for an estimate. After negotiating (I also never accept the first offer) and we agree on final deliverable, cost and timing it's on.


Any change in deliverable (scope of service) or timing will result in a change in cost.

ederphoto
30-Nov-2013, 13:56
Im my opinion , photography is not a job to get paid by the hour .It may be in some cases , but for the most part ,it is a per job , per item or per package deal .A photographer who gets paid by the hour is expected to be working " every minute " ! As for the typos , don't worry . You will get better with time .Is not an easy task to think in one language and to write everything in another just like i'm doing right now .Once you write your text , go over it again and check for mistakes .There are some great guys here in this forum who will go the extra mile to understand what some people write ,even when English is not their first language .Please post some photos of your work .I'd like to see them .

RandyB
1-Dec-2013, 00:27
How you charge for your time can be done in several ways as others have noted. When I ran my Photography business: 1. Weddings were always by the "package" price, which included all time, film and processing and a set of proof prints. Enlargements, extra proof sets were an additional cost. 2. Commercial/Advertising photography was always by the hour plus any and all cost incurred to complete the photo shoot. Travel time to and from the shoot site was at a reduced rate. I've seen many Commmercial jobs that should have taken 2 hours turn into 6 hours because of unforseen non-photographer problems.

AtlantaTerry
1-Dec-2013, 05:01
2. Commercial/Advertising photography was always by the hour plus any and all cost incurred to complete the photo shoot. Travel time to and from the shoot site was at a reduced rate. I've seen many Commmercial jobs that should have taken 2 hours turn into 6 hours because of unforseen non-photographer problems.

Yeah but. Back then you would shoot film and drop it off at a lab for processing. But these days photographers are expected to do much of the post-production work including editing. That involves time and skills. Therefore it needs to be billed. But how can one properly quote a job when you do not know up front how many finished edited photographs will be delivered? That is why I still say quoting by time makes no sense these days, we need to be compensated for the post-production work and that will only happen if the job is priced on a per piece basis. An alternate would be so much to shoot (time) + so much for post-production (per each finished edited image).

There also needs to be an overtime clause in the quote, too, so those jobs that take 6 hours instead of 2 are also compensated.

Last year I watched a behind the scenes video of a photo shoot involving 2 famous "celebrity" photographers and a self-important actress/singer/whatever. The photographers had hired a crew (makeup, wardrobe, grips, etc.) as part of the job. But the subject was something like five hours late arriving. The photographers had to pay the crew overtime out of their own pockets because their quote did not have a clause covering their butts if the "star" was late. Lesson learned.

smithdoor
1-Dec-2013, 08:05
I agree over time is always a big cost
I have to do work over the weekend be for and I just change 2x.
This over time I call gravy time I have had others call Christmas time ether way put this time cost in the quote. No hard feelings, always round time down never up. I have use a lot of subs in my life like the ones that round down.

Dave


Yeah but. Back then you would shoot film and drop it off at a lab for processing. But these days photographers are expected to do much of the post-production work including editing. That involves time and skills. Therefore it needs to be billed. But how can one properly quote a job when you do not know up front how many finished edited photographs will be delivered? That is why I still say quoting by time makes no sense these days, we need to be compensated for the post-production work and that will only happen if the job is priced on a per piece basis. An alternate would be so much to shoot (time) + so much for post-production (per each finished edited image).

There also needs to be an overtime clause in the quote, too, so those jobs that take 6 hours instead of 2 are also compensated.

Last year I watched a behind the scenes video of a photo shoot involving 2 famous "celebrity" photographers and a self-important actress/singer/whatever. The photographers had hired a crew (makeup, wardrobe, grips, etc.) as part of the job. But the subject was something like five hours late arriving. The photographers had to pay the crew overtime out of their own pockets because their quote did not have a clause covering their butts if the "star" was late. Lesson learned.

goamules
1-Dec-2013, 16:44
I do contract work for a living. Not photography, but a similar thing, "instructional design", either myself, or placing others to do it. Time and Materials contracts are the preferred method. A firm fixed price contract means one or the other party will be disadvantaged. If you quote $500 for a job, and finish early, the customer feels they were "cheated out of time they 'paid for'". If their requirements change and approval process gets bogged down by "editing gurus", you get hosed and have to do a lot of extra hours/work "for free." We always insist on Time and Materials but - and this is important - we describe exactly what they'll get, and a pretty accurate estimation of the time.

You can do the same with photography contracts. Tell them what you'll deliver: One album, 8x10s, and one, 1 hour proof review session....etc. Tell them that always takes you 123 hours, and at your rate, that comes out to $xxx total. If you want $500 bucks, just alter your rate to make it work out in the number of hours you know it will take. Explain, strongly, that any additional work, requests, problems, Photoshop oversears, etc., will cost them your $xxx/hr rate. That way, if they push for more, they pay for more. Otherwise, they pay and get exactly what they expected.

Kirk Gittings
1-Dec-2013, 16:53
I charge for time (estimated up front-billed actual), assistant time (estimated and actual), capture fees (includes basic file adjustments), photoshop fees (estimated and actual) and usage fees.

Kirk Gittings
1-Dec-2013, 16:54
I charge for time (estimated up front-billed actual), assistant time (estimated and actual), capture fees (includes basic file adjustments), photoshop fees (estimated and actual) and usage fees. This has evolved some since the move to digital, but essentially the same conceptually for 35 years.

Kevin J. Kolosky
13-Dec-2013, 11:44
years and years ago when I had my wedding photography business I always tried to first assess what the couple could afford and what they had been offered from other photogaphers that they had spoken with. Then I offered more for less. More time, more photographs, more locations, etc. for less money. Made them happy, made me happy. Got me lots of referrals. Never had to advertise.