Super Graphic Battery Conversion?

[HT Finley]

Well I just won me a pretty nice Super Graphic at a great price on fleabay. I've done some internet scouting, but not seeing much on the idea of getting the electric shutter trip converted over to an alternate power supply than the 2 22 1/2 volt batteries as designed. Any ideas?

[smithdoor]

Try this
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70145512
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70145528
Note: Price Item not available for order

Good luck
Dave

[HT Finley]

Try this
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70145512
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70145528

Good luck
Dave

Thanks, but those batteries aren't what I meant. I meant something possibly like a lower voltage solenoid conversion and use of the camera's own battery compartment.

[AtlantaTerry]

Trivia:

Back in the '60s there was a round blue device that slipped into the chrome tube where batteries normally would go. Then you would put in one battery to energize it.

I believe the blue device was a capacitor. That way every time you wanted to pop a flash bulb and move the solenoid you always had lots of power available unlike just batteries which would fade over time.

If my dusty brain cells are correct the round blue device was a "BC-22" or something like that. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct this posting.

[Tin Can]

You did not say what size battery fits, so I am assuming this battery which I just bought today from Amazon fits the bill. It is small, they remain usable 10 years and are used for many older electronics and my Agfa flash unit. Last night I was reading on APUG about older flashes, these batteries and they are often used to charge a capacitor to fire a flash bulb.

If these fit, they almost exactly the size of an 'AA', mine a Mallory M-505 22.5 Volt is slightly square instead of round like the Amazon replacement battery. Even at $10 a battery, they would be better than a hack. Check polarity any time you put in batteries, however with a solenoid it will make no difference. Not so with a capacitor driven flash. I was researching M5 flashbulbs.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008FPCWTO/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Ron Stowell]

Last set I bought, I got from Radio Shack, somewhat expensive.

[BrianShaw]

Last set I bought, I got from Radio Shack, somewhat expensive.

... but last a long time.

[BrianShaw]

You did not say what size battery fits...

Energizer 412 (x2)

[Tin Can]

Good to know.

I see they are available, all this type battery lasts a real long time.

However I plan on staying away from any LF camera that needs batteries.

I am not at all familiar with that version Graflex, but didn't older ones have several solenoids that ran on the flash attachment? Using 2 or 3 D cells, which is 3 to 4.5 volts.


Energizer 412 (x2)

[BrianShaw]

Yes, external solenoid was controlled by flash handle with D-cells. I like electric release in any Graphic being used hand-held. It is really convenient.

[Tin Can]

I have the parts, I will hook that up as soon as I get time.

Sometimes the obvious is ignored.

I hope OP gets what he wants.


Yes, external solenoid was controlled by flash handle with D-cells. I like electric release in any Graphic being used hand-held. It is really convenient.

[BrianShaw]

I hope OP gets what he wants.

Me too. I had the same thoughts but decided long ago that buying the proper battery is easier. Once-upon-a-time I recall seeing some plans on-line for an external battery adapter for SuperGraphic. Considered that too but decided that buying proper battery is easier.

[HT Finley]

I've looked on Amazon for the 412's as Brian recommends (thanks Brian), and they are 25.00 each. Kinda pricey. Randy Moe has illustrated some round smaller looking batteries of the same voltage for a pile on money less. I wonder if they could be rigged in place on a Super Graphic. As for my idea of re-working the electronics for a 3 volt or so solenoid, I got the idea it's best to not upset the original condition of the camera. Although it would be nice to put a couple AA batteries in the compartment and work the camera off them.

[HT Finley]

Here's what I'm wondering. I have a tapped isolation transformer I use for radio repair. When that camera gets here tomorrow, I won't have any batteries. But I do have some diodes in my parts box that can stand 117v. Wonder if I could rig up something to test the camera. No use spending $50 on 2-412 batteries if the electric shutter trip system has gone bad. Yes, I'm an admitted cheapskate. I have to be. (not complaining).

[Tin Can]

Sounds like you have basic electricity figured out. Just apply the correct DC voltage.



Here's what I'm wondering. I have a tapped isolation transformer I use for radio repair. When that camera gets here tomorrow, I won't have any batteries. But I do have some diodes in my parts box that can stand 117v. Wonder if I could rig up something to test the camera. No use spending $50 on 2-412 batteries if the electric shutter trip system has gone bad. Yes, I'm an admitted cheapskate. I have to be. (not complaining).

[HT Finley]

I haven't got it figured out THAT well. Here is the circuit diagram. Note the diode in it. I wondered yesterday why there would have to be a diode, till it occurred to me it must be to protect against insertion of the batteries backwards. Now it occurs to me to wonder if it would be a simple enough test of the operation to just hook up 90 volts AC straight off thee 90 volt tap of my isolation transformer, let the camera's own diode provide rectification to 45 volts, and fire the shutter switch to see if it works. If someone can point out something wrong in my thinking, I'd sure like to hear it. 103831

[brucetaylor]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-15F20-22-5V-Carbon-Zinc-Battery-412-U15-VS084-MN122-/220781419843?pt=US_Single_Use_Batteries&hash=item3367991d43
Two 22.5v correct sized batteries for $15 including shipping. Or buy 10 for $50. Regular carbon-zinc works fine (that's what was used originally), why a big fuss? I really like the solenoid shutter release feature on my Super Graphic, something like that was such a big deal back in the day!

[gleaf]

Peak Reverse Voltage rating of the diode has to meet or exceed the applied voltage. Anyone have the diodes part number?

[HT Finley]

Probably not a good idea. I doubt the camera's diode could take 90V

[Tin Can]

Likey!



http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-15f20-22-5v-carbon-zinc-battery-412-u15-vs084-mn122-/220781419843?pt=us_single_use_batteries&hash=item3367991d43
two 22.5v correct sized batteries for $15 including shipping. Or buy 10 for $50. Regular carbon-zinc works fine (that's what was used originally), why a big fuss? I really like the solenoid shutter release feature on my super graphic, something like that was such a big deal back in the day!

[E. von Hoegh]

I haven't got it figured out THAT well. Here is the circuit diagram. Note the diode in it. I wondered yesterday why there would have to be a diode, till it occurred to me it must be to protect against insertion of the batteries backwards. Now it occurs to me to wonder if it would be a simple enough test of the operation to just hook up 90 volts AC straight off thee 90 volt tap of my isolation transformer, let the camera's own diode provide rectification to 45 volts, and fire the shutter switch to see if it works. If someone can point out something wrong in my thinking, I'd sure like to hear it. 103831


You're way too full of... yourself.

[HT Finley]

You're way too full of... yourself.
That's too bad. I've come to respect your expertise, but somehow I've managed to get on your bad side.

[dsphotog]

If I remember correctly the Super or TRF Crown also have an illuminated rangefinder focus system. Is that right?

[HT Finley]

The TRF Speeds and Crowns did, but I don't think the Super had it, which defies understanding. I'll see when it gets here tomorrow. If it does not, you can bet I'll dream up a way to retrofit one somehow.

[Jac@stafford.net]

The main reason they used a 22.5V battery with a capacitor was due to the poor retention of voltage compared to today's batteries. Flashes of sizes including the monsters F-33 and Mazda 75 would trip with a minimum of 4.5 volts, but nobody wanted to risk a shot with a poor battery. I do not know if today's replicas are better. Shame if they are not. Perhaps someone could inform us.


If I remember correctly the Super or TRF Crown also have an illuminated rangefinder focus system. Is that right?

That was a variant of the Focuspot and worked with 3V to 4.5V. More to 22.5V plus didn't hurt with the proper bulb.

[gleaf]

Fast electronics 101. Diode is an on off switch. Reverse direction it is a open until you exceed the prv. At that point it becomes a carbon short then burns open if your lucky. In the forward direction the on state voltage drop is approx. half a volt. 90 - 0. 5=89.5 volts to the circuit. E=I *R or in this case I=E/R. E=90 ... everything was designed
for battery voltage that dropped over time. I know you want to try it. Variable transformer to drop active to 45 vac or two Door bell type 24 volt (hardware store should have them, used in heating cooling for thermostats control voltage) transformers would be much less of a Smoke Test situation. If I get a chance tonight I will check the ohms of my Crowns solenoid. Trouble with smoke tests is the release of smoke from micro parts burning is nearly instant. Enjoy your learning experience.

[BrianShaw]

The main reason they used a 22.5V battery with a capacitor was due to the poor retention of voltage compared to today's batteries. Flashes of sizes including the monsters F-33 and Mazda 75 would trip with a minimum of 4.5 volts, but nobody wanted to risk a shot with a poor battery. I do not know if today's replicas are better. Shame if they are not. Perhaps someone could inform us.

Jac... That may be true of many flash units of the 50s and 60s, but the battery on a SuperGraphic does not trip the flashbulb... it only operates the shutter solenoid. The 2 or 3 D-cell batteries in the battery case trip the bulb.

Re: focuspot... it really is too bad that the Super never offered that!

[Jac@stafford.net]

Jac... That may be true of many flash units of the 50s and 60s, but the battery on a SuperGraphic does not trip the flashbulb... it only operates the shutter solenoid. The 2 or 3 D-cell batteries in the battery case trip the bulb.

Thanks for the information. My ignorance is bottomless. I had no idea.


Re: focuspot... it really is too bad that the Super never offered that!

Wasn't there something like the focuspot built into the RF?

[HT Finley]

Fast electronics 101. Diode is an on off switch. Reverse direction it is a open until you exceed the prv. At that point it becomes a carbon short then burns open if your lucky. In the forward direction the on state voltage drop is approx. half a volt. 90 - 0. 5=89.5 volts to the circuit. E=I *R or in this case I=E/R. E=90 ... everything was designed
for battery voltage that dropped over time. I know you want to try it. Variable transformer to drop active to 45 vac or two Door bell type 24 volt (hardware store should have them, used in heating cooling for thermostats control voltage) transformers would be much less of a Smoke Test situation. If I get a chance tonight I will check the ohms of my Crowns solenoid. Trouble with smoke tests is the release of smoke from micro parts burning is nearly instant. Enjoy your learning experience.

Thanks gleaf. I've been restoring and working on radios, TV's tape recorders, test equipment--most everything for years, but I seriously doubt I'd pass Electronics 101. I get the part about PRV, but I just did not follow what you said. The mail lady will be showing up with my Super any minute, and it will be some time before I could have any batteries shipped in for it. I'm itching to find a way to hook up my tapped isolation xformer to it, but not entirely sure what I need to do. I can tap off anywhere between 25-125VAC. And I have a leftover diode I bought to experiment with a wave-clipping experiment for my soldering iron to run it at half voltage when I wasn't using it immediately. (The idea was to keep it warm when idling, and flip a toggle switch to give it full wave 117 when I pick it up to solder something). Thanks.

[Tin Can]

Before you hot wire that solenoid, why not find out if it's rare and expensive.

Just a thought.


Thanks gleaf. I've been restoring and working on radios, TV's tape recorders, test equipment--most everything for years, but I seriously doubt I'd pass Electronics 101. I get the part about PRV, but I just did not follow what you said. The mail lady will be showing up with my Super any minute, and it will be some time before I could have any batteries shipped in for it. I'm itching to find a way to hook up my tapped isolation xformer to it, but not entirely sure what I need to do. I can tap off anywhere between 25-125VAC. And I have a leftover diode I bought to experiment with a wave-clipping experiment for my soldering iron to run it at half voltage when I wasn't using it immediately. (The idea was to keep it warm when idling, and flip a toggle switch to give it full wave 117 when I pick it up to solder something). Thanks.

[BrianShaw]

Just a thought.

Good thought!

[HT Finley]

You guys had already settled my hairbrain scheme to re-work the camera for common batteries. But the case is moot now anyway. The Super came today, and it is total junk. It's obviously a very pretty parts carcass the seller did not know about. It's missing so many parts, it's not even a parts camera any more. Totally worthless. Thanks, guys. Back to the drawing board. I did manage to at least see if I likesda Super Graphic, and I do. Going to start beating the bushes for a good one. My days of Pacemakers are past.

[Tin Can]

That is interesting that you would be sold total junk. Were there no pictures? I have had very good luck buying very nice cameras here and eBay. I rely on pictures and seller reputation.

I hope this does not happen to you again.


You guys had already settled my hairbrain scheme to re-work the camera for common batteries. But the case is moot now anyway. The Super came today, and it is total junk. It's obviously a very pretty parts carcass the seller did not know about. It's missing so many parts, it's not even a parts camera any more. Totally worthless. Thanks, guys. Back to the drawing board. I did manage to at least see if I likesda Super Graphic, and I do. Going to start beating the bushes for a good one. My days of Pacemakers are past.

[Kuzano]

Didn't read all posts... but last time I looked the Everready412 22.5 volt batteries were still available. I got a pair from MPEX (Midwest Photo Exchange). Is there a reason you want to change from the original battery. Mine lasted forever in the camera. ?????

[HT Finley]

That is interesting that you would be sold total junk. Were there no pictures? I have had very good luck buying very nice cameras here and eBay. I rely on pictures and seller reputation.

I hope this does not happen to you again.
Yes, there were plenty of pictures, and it looked nice. The seller was not a "camera person", and I could never know from the photos that the camera had been gutted of parts. When it came, I ended up making a list of missing parts. Camera is a pretty carcass, and that's all.

[BrianShaw]

Bummer. There have been people on various forums who brag about gutting SuperG's to make them lighter. I never understood that madness, but whatever floats their boat...

[HT Finley]

I wanted it for its front movements (and compactness). If it were right, I could get rid of my Calumet and 2 Crowns and have 9sq ft more floor space in here.

[gleaf]

Can't wait for your next project. Best wishes for a useable acquisition.

[HT Finley]

Can't wait for your next project. Best wishes for a useable acquisition.

Thanks gleaf. I did not know I was attracting attention to myself with my projects. I suppose while I'm waiting, for another Super to open up, I'll repair the time base linkage in my Tek 2335 scope. Also have an big Ampex studio model R2R that needs its amplifier realigned. But that's not for this forum. Regards.

[Kuzano]

I don't gut Super Graphics that are functional or complete for handheld. But I only shoot Super Graphics where missing parts preclude resoration of the rangefinder. I do strip out all the electronics and RF hardware. I shoot them GG. I have done the increased movements mods on the front standard. As a result I have a great metal folding camera, with front movements. It is much lighter than the original Super and WAY lighter than the Toyo 45A I just sold. I have milled the top and plated it for shorter height. I have the ability for revolving back, tracks to slide the front standard. The camera weights just over 3 pounds, and is more flexible in use than any other Graflex used for GG viewing (w/o FP shutter).

I enjoy the "madness" as you put it, and have a special purpose camera that is usable, reliable, robust and portable. Right now I am shooting Quick Loads and Readyloads until I use up the 200 packets I have.

There my be a decision to come when I receive my TravelWide, but I have movements, many on the SG-Lite.

[BrianShaw]

I never mentioned your name, did I? :o

[Kuzano]

I never mentioned your name, did I? :o

Now you didn't, and my response was not in frustration, anger, or any other negative intent. Sorry if it appeared so. I merely wanted to point out the advantages of "recycling" old Super's that have no future in restoration. The OP's camera, even though, frustrating short of parts to make a full blown hand held rangefinder camera, can still do duty as a Ground Glass viewing piece of equipment.

In fact I contacted the OP to see what he may do with the SG he received. I am well into my second ISG-Lite (Improved Super Graphic Lite) and need a few parts that are not related to the rangefinder, solenoids or electronics. Hell, I can't even tune my VCR to the stations... not an electronics guy here.

So, not offended, and "Madly" Yours... Lars :cool:

[BrianShaw]

Your response was perfectly appropriate and welcomed. I've always held back from discussing stripping down SGs only because I have no experience or interest in doing so, so I'm glad you spoke up on that topic. I totally understand why people might do such a thing. I was teasing you. :)

[gleaf]

Intensity is part of the are that drives us. Be is intent as you like. I go to war fitting with even the smallest problem. Wasteful of resources but fast..... people I give slack. We all struggle against the ho hum nature of ' the entertain me' crowd.

[dfroula]

The diode in the circuit is to suppress the transient reverse voltage from the solenoid when it de-energizes. This prevents the high voltage pulse from arcing across the button's contacts and protects the capacitors from damage.

To test my solenoid, I clipped together five regular 9-volt batteries in series and used some clip leads to connect to the battery compartment. Watch the polarity! Sometimes the wires running through the Super Graphic bellows break and are nearly impossible to repair. Mine worked great, so I ordered some cheap carbon zinc cells from China on Ebay.

164618

[dfroula]

BTW, the service manual schematic notes mention there are 2-80 microfarad capacitors in the solenoid triggering circuit and two capacitors are shown in the schematic. This is misleading, as the note applies to EACH of the symbols. There are actually FOUR 80 microfarad capacitors in parallel for a total capacitance of 320 microfarads. That's what I measured with my capacitance meter.

The service manual indicates there should be no more than 25 microamps of current leakage when the camera is just sitting. There is no on/off switch to disconnect the batteries, so the batteries will slowly discharge. The original Eveready carbon zinc battery had a capacity of 140 mAH. That equates to 140/.025 or 5600 hours of standby life, worst case. That's just under a year before the expensive batteries discharge just sitting in the camera. I read 15 microamps leakage on my meter, which is 388 days of standby life. I recommend removing the batteries when not in use!

Capacitors sometimes develop excessive leakage as they age, so it is good to verify your camera draws 25 microamps or less before investing in the batteries. Just connect a multimeter in series with the test batteries, as described below.

It is possible to hot-wire 5 9-volt batteries clipped together in series to the shutter circuit by using an external resistor. Connect the negative side of the battery stack to the right terminal of the flash socket on the camera body through a 2.7 kohm 1/2 watt resistor. Use a finishing nail or 14 gauge solid wire as a contact post. Connect the positive side of the battery stack to the lower terminal on the right rear bottom of the lens standard. Look for two small nuts holding wires from the shutter. These are the terminals from the solenoid. Don't omit the resistor or the capacitors and/or solenoid may be damaged. This method of testing bypasses the internal resistor, so you must supply one. Works great for testing. You can verify my connection suggestions by referring to the schematic.

The batteries can be quite weak and still function, as the capacitors store the energy needed to trip the solenoid. It will take longer and longer to recharge the caps between shutter activations as the batteries age, however. The internal resistor limits the recharge time and limits the current from the battery when the shutter is tripped.

164684 164685 164686 164694

[dfroula]

The blue Graflex BC flash adapter has one of the 22.5 volt batteries (same as used in the Super Graphic) and a 10 Kohm resistor disk built into the battery holder to limit the current from the battery. It replaced two D cells and provided much more reliable operation than D cells that were weak.

The adapter had no capability to power the shutter in the Super Graphic. It simply flashed the bulb when triggered by the shutter contacts, routed through the bellows and camera body to the three pin socket on the side of the camera.

The circuit is nearly identical to the Super Graphic shutter circuit, just optimized to fire a flash bulb instead of triggering a solenoid.

164683

[dfroula]

I had an idea to make up 3 stacks of 5 each CR2032 lithium coin cells, connected in series with copper strips. The size should fit inside the battery compartment. I would fabricate a plate from circuit board material to match the battery contacts in the compartment. CR2032 cells can be had for 6.00 USD per 20 count. The battery capacity is 220maH, where the original battery was 140maH, so battery life should be very good. Ordered the batteries from Amazon and going to give it a try.

[BrianShaw]

I'd be interested in the details of both your design and experiment.

[dfroula]

I had an idea to make up 3 stacks of 5 each CR2032 lithium coin cells, connected in series with copper strips. The size should fit inside the battery compartment. I would fabricate a plate from circuit board material to match the battery contacts in the compartment. CR2032 cells can be had for 6.00 USD per 20 count. The battery capacity is 220maH, where the original battery was 140maH, so battery life should be very good. Ordered the batteries from Amazon and going to give it a try.

I'll be sure to post results. I have a brief video of my hotwired shutter test here. Note how the current peaks at about 20mA when solenoid is triggered (checked with peak hold feature on meter) and decreases to a steady 15 microamps at the time constant determined by the resistor and capacitor combination. The internal resistor is wired to only limit current from the battery for charging caps slowly, as the original batteries had such a high internal resistance they had no hope of triggering the solenoid alone. The capacitors stored the charge and dumped it into the solenoid with very low resistance when the button was pressed:


https://youtu.be/hvTzyECe37s

[AtlantaTerry]

The blue Graflex BC flash adapter has one of the 22.5 volt batteries (same as used in the Super Graphic) and a 10 Kohm resistor disk built into the battery holder to limit the current from the battery. It replaced two D cells and provided much more reliable operation than D cells that were weak.

The adapter had no capability to power the shutter in the Super Graphic. It simply flashed the bulb when triggered by the shutter contacts, routed through the bellows and camera body to the three pin socket on the side of the camera.

The circuit is nearly identical to the Super Graphic shutter circuit, just optimized to fire a flash bulb instead of triggering a solenoid.

164683

Yes, but...

I believe one could plug a cord into the flash gun the other end of which plugged into the solenoid which had a pair of metal pins for the purpose.

[dfroula]

Some flashes did have a button to remotely fire the electronic shutter, but the power sources for the flash bulb and shutter solenoid were always separate. A special "Y" cord was used that split the three-pin plug that mated with the camera socket on one end and two sockets on the flash tube, one for the remote trigger button, the other. for the flash contacts from the shutter.

With such a flash, depressing the remote shutter button on the flash body completed the circuit of the internal 45 volt camera battery/capacitors and the trigger solenoid. When the shutter triggered, the internal shutter contacts completed the circuit of the batteries in the flash handle and the flash bulb; two separate circuits linked mechanically at the shutter.

My HR flash has a cord with three pins for the camera socket, but only a single dual-prong plug at the other end for the flash bulb circuit to the shutter - no remote button.

[BrianShaw]

Yes, but...

I believe one could plug a cord into the flash gun the other end of which plugged into the solenoid which had a pair of metal pins for the purpose.

Are you talking about using the Y-cord or some other configuration? I've used the Y-cord for bulbs and shutter release but it still needs the battery in the body to trigger the release. The flash handle just provided a remote/alternative switch.

If you are suggesting the possibility of feeding current into the 3-hole socket on the side of the body... I'm all ears. Have thought similar but never examined the wiring diagram to determine if that would work or not. To get 22.5V one would have to use the Graflex B-C which, unfortunately, doesn't eliminate the need for a 412 battery. But if you are thinking B-C current going out the "remote" plug and into the body via a separate cord... I wondered the same thing.

[dfroula]

Are you talking about using the Y-cord or some other configuration? I've used the Y-cord for bulbs and shutter release but it still needs the battery in the body to trigger the release. The flash handle just provided a remote/alternative switch.

If you are suggesting the possibility of feeding current into the 3-hole socket on the side of the body... I'm all ears. Have thought similar but never examined the wiring diagram to determine if that would work or not. To get 22.5V one would have to use the Graflex B-C which, unfortunately, doesn't eliminate the need for a 412 battery. But if you are thinking B-C current going out the "remote" plug and into the body via a separate cord... I wondered the same thing.


Are you talking about using the Y-cord or some other configuration? I've used the Y-cord for bulbs and shutter release but it still needs the battery in the body to trigger the release. The flash handle just provided a remote/alternative switch.

If you are suggesting the possibility of feeding current into the 3-hole socket on the side of the body... I'm all ears. Have thought similar but never examined the wiring diagram to determine if that would work or not. To get 22.5V one would have to use the Graflex B-C which, unfortunately, doesn't eliminate the need for a 412 battery. But if you are thinking B-C current going out the "remote" plug and into the body via a separate cord... I wondered the same thing.

I agree with you about the "Y" cord used with flashes with the alternate shutter button.

Yes, you can feed 45 volt shutter battery power via the rightmost socket hole in the camera side and the lower solenoid terminal on the lower front lens standard (back side with small nut), but you have to supply your own current limiting resistor as this bypasses the internal resistor. These are the only access points for feeding external power to the trigger circuit, other than the battery contacts. The positive side of the circuit cannot be accessed from any of the three socket holes.

Basically:

Remove batteries from battery compartment or place tape over the battery door contacts. Connect the negative side of the 45 volt battery/power source to the right-most terminal of the flash socket on the camera body through (in series with) a 2.7 kohm 1/2 watt resistor. Use a finishing nail or 14 gauge solid wire as a contact post. Connect the positive side of the battery stack directly to the lower terminal on the right rear bottom of the lens standard. Look for two small nuts holding wires from the solenoid. These are the terminals from the solenoid. Don't omit the resistor or the capacitors and/or solenoid may be damaged. This method of testing bypasses the internal resistor, so you must supply one. Works great for testing. You can verify my connection suggestions by referring to the schematic.

However, you mention feeding 22.5 volts externally through the side connector for flash power, if I read your comments correctly. I guess that is possible, but you'd have to run a jumper wire inside the flash gun battery tube to short the contacts to get continuity, or it wouldn't work. I see no adavantage to using an external flash supply. Why not just use D cells or a B-C adapter, since they are cheap and available?

Annotated schematic attached.

164765

[dfroula]

Well, my 20 CR2032 lithium coin cell batteries arrived today. They were a quality Panasonic brand. Either Sony or Panasonic CR2032s should be used for this project, as their capacity is least affected by higher intermittent current load.

I prepared a battery pack of 4 stacks of 4 cells each. This gives a nominal voltage of 3x16 or 48 volts. The initial voltage is actually 50 volts, but quickly drops to 48 after a few shutter activations. Although a bit higher than the 45 volts provided by the regular carbon zinc natteries, this voltage is within the tolerance of the capacitors and gives a slight extra punch to the shutter activation.

I soldered wires directly to the cell for the + and - wires as well as to the cells that bridged the individual stacks. There is a good tutorial on how to do this (not mine) on YouTube:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c7J4Ll6U30

Be sure to clean all solder flux off of the battery after soldering.

I prepared 8 of the 16 cells by soldering. I soldered one red wire to the + side of one cell. I soldered a black wire to the - side of another cell. I then prepared 3 pairs of cells with a short piece of wire soldered to the + side of one cell and the other end of the wire to the - side of a second cell. These three pairs are used to bridge between the stacks of 4 cells each.

I then started with the cell with the red wire and placed 2 cells beneath it in the proper + to - orientation, ending with the + side of one of the soldered together pairs. I taped this stack tightly together with stretchy black electrical tape to press the first stack of cells tightly together. I then did the same with the second, third, and fourth stacks, ending the fourth stack with the cell with the single black wire. Of course the - to + polarity between each cell must be maintained throughout.

Finally I used a wrap of tape around the circumference of each stack so the stacks would not short to one another when pressed together. I then used a wrap of electrical tape to hold together each pair of stacks in a 4x4 configuration. The final assembly should look like this:

164787 164791

You can see the dimensions of the pack are similar to the two original Eveready 412 cells side by side.

Next I had to fabricate terminal strips to make contact with the terminals in the battery compartment. I used a few small pieces off copper clad circuit board, but the same could be done with brass or copper sheeting. I soldered the red and black wires to the pieces and mounted them on one end of the pack using foam tape to provide some pressure against the contacts. I put a few strips of foam weatherstriping on the opposite side of the pack so pressure would be place against the contacts when the battery door was in place.

164789

I carefully inserted the pack into the compartment of the camera, aligning the contact plates on the pack with the contacts in the compartment. I replaced the battery door. being sure the foam was thick enough to put pressure on the terminals and maintain good contact.

164790

The pack worked perfectly, with plenty of authority. Voltage seems to recover to a nominal 48 volts a few seconds after each shutter activation. I was able to monitor the battery voltage from outside the camera using the same connections I used to apply external voltage to the camera, described in an earlier post. The lithium cells have a capacity of 240maH compared to the 140maH of the Eveready 412s, so battery life should be good if your camera's capacitors are in good shape. BTW, capacitors need to be "reformed" if they have been sitting unused for many years. Just placing the correct voltage in the camera and leaving it sit for a time may recover capacitors which seem to be bad or have high leakage. Worth a try, as disassembling to get to the capacitors involves pulling the pointer off the rangefinder computer and getting it glued back in the correct position.

Check the video of the pack in operation at:

https://youtu.be/D9gimnnFl1k

Be cautious about applying excessive heat when soldering as it is easy to ruin a cell, even causing it to burst. Wear eye protection and test the voltage after cooling to be sure the voltage is OK. Also, take especial care NOT to short the completed pack, as this many cells in series packs a bit of a punch and could build up heat quickly. The internal resistance of CR2032s is pretty high, so fire or smoke are unlikely, but some of the cells in the pack will be damaged, degrading performance of the entire pack.

I tried connecting the flash cord on the camera side to my two Speedotron 4800ws packs that I use for wet plate portraits. I can press the red button on the camera to trigger the shutter, in turn closing the shutter flash contacts and firing the two optically slaved Speedotron packs. Works great!

[BrianShaw]

Well that's very interesting!

[dfroula]

Diagram of cell stack wiring. You can see where the three pairs of cells that are wired together are used.

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[dfroula]

Yes, but...

I believe one could plug a cord into the flash gun the other end of which plugged into the solenoid which had a pair of metal pins for the purpose.

I must apologize, I did a bit of reading and some of the flash units used with the Speed Graphic (external low voltage solenoid) did indeed power the shutter solenoid and pop the bulb using the same 2 or 3 D cells in the flash holder. The required momentary current required was about 7 amps, so battery life must for reliable operation must have been quite short. It appears these external "Synchronizer" units were used with shutters without internal synchronization contacts. The synchronization, apparently, depended upon very precise adjustment of the low-voltage solenoid such that the bulb fired and the shutter opened with the correct timing. That must have been incredibly difficult to adjust without proper equipment.

The Super Graphic lens board has contacts that connect to the coaxial connector on the shutter and feeds the connection back to the flash gun, so proper operation is not dependent on the mechanical adjustment of the solenoid.

I assumed the button on Synchronizer flash units simply fired the shutter, which in turn used its contacts to trigger the bulb, but it looks like it was all "open loop" at the flash unit.

The flash unit I have does not have the Synchronizer capability, just household prong sockets for shutter and two slave flashes - no shutter button, which is fine for the Super Graphic.

At least I think that's how they worked, based on some additional reading. Corrections welcome.

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...] The synchronization, apparently, depended upon very precise adjustment of the low-voltage solenoid such that the bulb fired and the shutter opened with the correct timing. That must have been incredibly difficult to adjust without proper equipment

First, thank you for your contributions here.

The synchronizer/solenoid was not difficult to time. The adjustments you see in the cap were largely to fit the reach to the shutter lever. The big bulbs began to peak with a 1/50th of a second delay (20 milliseconds) and using a conservative shutter speed helped, too.

(aside: I think I have worked out a way to wirelessly fire those solenoid linked shutters using original Graflex flash gear.)

[BrianShaw]

snip

(aside: I think I have worked out a way to wirelessly fire those solenoid linked shutters using original Graflex flash gear.)

do tell...

[BrianShaw]

snip

The flash unit I have does not have the Synchronizer capability, just household prong sockets for shutter and two slave flashes - no shutter button, which is fine for the Super Graphic.

snip.

That's the difference between the 3-cell and 2-cell Graflite. I use a 2-cell with the SuperGraphic and let the shutter control synch with the bulb and the 3-cell with Anniversary Graphic and let the synchronizer/solenoid synch the bulb with the shutter.

[Jac@stafford.net]

do tell...

Graflex flashes accept a slave sensor which will trigger the unit upon which it is attached. Slave sensors are receptive of infrared light. When the slave cell detects a signal it will fire the flash, which in turn triggers the lens shutter. So, using a source of any kind that emits IR should trigger the mechanism, and all flashbulbs emit IR.

What do you think?

[dfroula]

Graflex flashes accept a slave sensor which will trigger the unit upon which it is attached. Slave sensors are receptive of infrared light. When the slave cell detects a signal it will fire the flash, which in turn triggers the lens shutter. So, using a source of any kind that emits IR should trigger the mechanism, and all flashbulbs emit IR.

What do you think?

Optical slave units have a capacitor or inductor in the circuit, wired in a way that that makes them sensitive to only a large and sudden increase in light level, regardless of wavelength. I have an optical slave plugged into my second 2400ws Speedotron pack. Turning the modeling lights or room lights won't trigger it. It needs to see a high intensity short impulse.

[dfroula]

My 22.5 volt carbon-zinc batteries arrived from China today. Delivery estimate was out in July, but the four batteries arrived in just under two weeks. Not bad.

Here is a lineup of the 3 old and 4 new 412 cells with the bottom of the button justified against a line of the graph paper. The comparison cell has the plastic shrink wrap removed. Paper squares are 5mm. You can see that the height of the new batteries varies considerably cell to cell, due to variations of the bulge of the terminal caps. They are taller than the original, but would be OK in the Super Graphic due to the spring contact strip in the battery door.

The nominal voltage on all of the cells (unloaded) is 24.5.
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Don

[dfroula]

The thickness of the batteries may be a deal breaker. The new batteries are considerably thicker than the originals (as previously reported here).

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The old batteries are a nominal .629 inch thick.

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The new batteries, with shrink wrap and oval sticker removed, are a nominal .689 inch thick. There is considerable "give" to the metal covering, however.

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I don't believe the new batteries will fit the Super Graphic's battery compartment without some modification to the battery. I have not tried, however, as I do not wish to disturb my homebrew lithium CR2032 pack, which has been performing great with moderate use.

I was thinking that if the metal sheath was removed with pliers and the cell stack wrapped with electrical tape and the sides of the end caps were filed down some, they may fit.

Don

[dfroula]

The width of the new batteries is almost identical to the old Eveready units at 1.01 - 1.02 inches:

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Don

[dfroula]

The new battery fit fine in my Heiland 2- "D" cell flash equipped with a BC adapter. The capacitor and resistor disk seem to work fine. It popped a flashbulb nicely.

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