View Full Version : Routing a precision 'ledge' for GG in mahogany, which bit type?
I am starting work on a 14x17 conversion back for Deardorff S11. I need to rout a ledge or groove for the GG to the correct ANSI depth of 0.320 +/-
0.016. Setting the correct depth will be simple once I set up, but I am not a real woodworker. I have done work like this in metal on a mill.
What sort of bit is used?
What is the cheapest type of router to use?
I say cheapest, as this tool will have one purpose, this job, perhaps once.
I may rout the ledge in the 4 pieces first and then build the GG holder.
Hi Randy,
The challenge I see is that the .320" dimension is from the face of the wood to the face of the ground glass, which
is the side opposite the side you're cutting.
You need to set a reference surface on the vise within the open section of the back that projects up by the proper distance, then
touch off the face of your cutting tool to that reference. This assumes the work is sitting flat on the vise base.
The standard solution would be to build a stack of gage blocks.
You can get router bits that have non-cutting ends, to control the horizontal depth of cut.
Fancy ones have a small ball bearing on the nose; cheap ones just have a cylindrical steel projection.
The diameter of the cutter is determined by the required horizontal depth.
I would cut out the corners with a drill so they don't challenge the router bit.
This is not an issue if you cut the four pieces before assembling them.
- Leigh
Leigh, I know you are a machinist.
I understand machinist methods, and it is the best way, but if I have a known dimension or height, I can cut from above, down to that T distance #.
I don't consider 0.304 - 0.336" range to be a difficult target to achieve with crude setup. A flat table and flat wood clamped to it can be tried a few times until I reach the correct bottom face to GG spec.
I do wish I had that granite surface block they threw away at work. :(
Trial and failure will give me experience. But I don't know which $30 bit and cheap router to buy. I looked at Home Depot. :) I imagine I will not need a very powerful router as the cut will be shallow and not wide.
Basicly T distance is 5/16". I have flat milled and sanded 1/2" wood. I need to remove 3/16" down and 3/16" wide to create the GG ledge.
My 1/2" stock right now is 0.504. I'm going to let it set a while and adjust to my RH. Then I will sand it to darn close to 0.500"
I have way more time than money in my early retirement. I can experiment.
This guy is a bit of inspiration, but I am only making a back. I have holders and camera.
http://vimeo.com/28160586
The challenge I see is that the .320" dimension is from the face of the wood to the face of the ground glass, which
is the side opposite the side you're cutting.
You need to set a reference surface on the vise within the open section of the back that projects up by the proper distance, then
touch off the face of your cutting tool to that reference. This assumes the work is sitting flat on the vise base.
The standard solution would be to build a stack of gage blocks.
- Leigh
For hard woods, specifically Padauk, I often use carbide end mills designed for aluminum, I get the ones that have been re-sharpened so many times that they are no longer useful for the aviation industry here in Montreal. I find I get better results with these than with cheap router bits from Home Depot, and for less money. I've tried doing this sort of thing with a Dremel tool and the Dremel 'router table', but they're far too flimsy to get proper results. You need a solid cast iron or cast aluminum shaper table, with proper jigs, if you want repeatable results with proper tolerances. I'm afraid these aren't cheap.
I do have a few mills, never thought of using them on this. My toy mill, a Unimat is a hassle to set up for anything bigger than a coin
This is really a new project, I figure midwinter before it really gets moving.
Back to plumbing the sinks...
For hard woods, specifically Padauk, I often use carbide end mills designed for aluminum, I get the ones that have been re-sharpened so many times that they are no longer useful for the aviation industry here in Montreal. I find I get better results with these than with cheap router bits from Home Depot, and for less money. I've tried doing this sort of thing with a Dremel tool and the Dremel 'router table', but they're far too flimsy to get proper results. You need a solid cast iron or cast aluminum shaper table, with proper jigs, if you want repeatable results with proper tolerances. I'm afraid these aren't cheap.
A router table with a fence would be the ticket for what you want to do.
You can cobble a table together out of MDF.
I did most of my light routing with a Ryobi laminate trimmer mounted upside down on a piece of MDF
before getting a router table. For a one off this may work for you.
I've ordered and used their carbide tipped bits for making lens boards -
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_straight.html
Thanks guys, I think a trim router will do it, of course I will need to fiddle with depth and cut.
I made a boat once just to learn how wood is used.
I know I can do this. I spent years watching and helping my brother obsess with his custom woodwork business until it put him down. He's alive, but barely. If he would crawl out to his shop he could make a damn nice camera. That's not happening.
When I make something, I will show it here.
Lachlan 717
4-Oct-2013, 23:43
Google videos of DIY router tables. You'll get some good ideas on how to throw a cheap one together.
A plunge router would make things easier, as you can change the depth easily with these.
Have you considered hiring a router?
I just spent a while looking this up.
I prefer DIY, as I get it done. Hiring is usually a bad idea for me, I should always just buy the tool and learn to use it.
I miss my factory mechanic job as we could do anything in that factory, we were a million square feet of DIY, every function under one roof.
Retirement is both Hell and Heaven.
Google videos of DIY router tables. You'll get some good ideas on how to throw a cheap one together.
A plunge router would make things easier, as you can change the depth easily with these.
Have you considered hiring a router?
William Whitaker
5-Oct-2013, 05:53
After you screw it up once, it'll be much easier the second time around! :)
Exactly!
I was not allowed to take shop classes in high school, nor art classes. I was put on a college prep route. So, I became a Vietnam era college dropout who became a self taught mechanic. To increase my stubbornness, my father would never let me touch anything mechanical or hand work, such as woodworking. He relied on experts, damn fool, got taken for a ride by his experts.
After you screw it up once, it'll be much easier the second time around! :)
On my 8x10 that i recently finished, I used spiral upcut bits on my milling machine after the back was glued up. Making the cut too deep isn't as much of an issue as too shallow since you could shim the ground glass to get it perfect.
Ah, good advice Vinny.
Thanks!
On my 8x10 that i recently finished, I used spiral upcut bits on my milling machine after the back was glued up. Making the cut too deep isn't as much of an issue as too shallow since you could shim the ground glass to get it perfect.
Jim Jones
5-Oct-2013, 08:17
My router hasn't been dismounted from a cheap router table in years. The fence is usually mounted, too. It's far more accurate than needed for a camera back. As for precision, it's the craftsman, not the machine, that accomplishes that. The machine is merely more productive and convenient. Amateur telescope makers were finishing mirrors to within a fraction of the wavelength of light long ago. Stradivari was making decent fiddles without fancy equipment, too.
You are correct, I ran across one guy who uses a trim router to make custom violins.
I have also heard of people hand boring rifle barrels, that must be a good bit of work. (pun intended)
My router hasn't been dismounted from a cheap router table in years. The fence is usually mounted, too. It's far more accurate than needed for a camera back. As for precision, it's the craftsman, not the machine, that accomplishes that. The machine is merely more productive and convenient. Amateur telescope makers were finishing mirrors to within a fraction of the wavelength of light long ago. Stradivari was making decent fiddles without fancy equipment, too.
Paul Fitzgerald
5-Oct-2013, 08:35
Randy,
"I may rout the ledge in the 4 pieces first and then build the GG holder."
backwards, the ledge will extent to the ends, light leaks, dust collector, weakness, alignment problems while gluing, ect.
"My 1/2" stock right now is 0.504. I'm going to let it set a while and adjust to my RH. Then I will sand it to darn close to 0.500"
backwards, better to sand to final dimensions after it's glued and routed
"I do wish I had that granite surface block they threw away at work."
too damn handy not to have one large enough, look around look around, it's called 'sport shopping':
building tear-down near by?
granite counter-top store?
gravestone shop?
marble slab for making candies and pastries?
"After you screw it up once, it'll be much easier the second time around!"
Yeap, cut it twice and it's still too short! :mad:
redshift
5-Oct-2013, 08:50
I wouldn't use a router if I have a table saw. Stand the pieces on edge. Set the blade depth to match the ledge the glass will sit on. Use a featherboard to hold the piece against the fence. A countertop place should have an offcut from a kitchen sink.
Jac@stafford.net
5-Oct-2013, 08:57
Randy,
"I may rout the ledge in the 4 pieces first and then build the GG holder."
backwards, the ledge will extent to the ends, light leaks, dust collector, weakness, alignment problems while gluing, ect.
To obviate that, would it not suffice cut the ends at 45 degree angles? I don't see that very often, and wonder why.
Which brings up biscuits, can biscuits be used on 1/2" stock at the 45 degree joint?
To obviate that, most will cut the ends at 45 degree angles.
Paul Fitzgerald
5-Oct-2013, 09:09
"To obviate that, most will cut the ends at 45 degree angles."
Yes, and the finger joints / tenons?
Roger Thoms
5-Oct-2013, 20:46
Randy I have a router for you and the price is right. PM sent!!!
Roger
PM returned.
Thanks!
Randy I have a router for you and the price is right. PM sent!!!
Roger
Been studying this problem all day, even bought and returned a cheap router table. I have not bought a router yet, and I think Roger has solved that problem.
Thanks Roger!
I am going to make my own router table setup, everything I see it either cheap junk or too expensive and still junk in my eyes.
One $500 router table boasted their cast iron, 150 lb router tabletop, was flat to within 0.008"! That's not flat. The one I returned had new, failed plastic router plate leveling screws...
On an entirely separate note, I just got my darkroom sink running hot and cold water in what used to be the living room. I am stoked!
Paul Fitzgerald
6-Oct-2013, 08:16
"Which brings up biscuits, can biscuits be used on 1/2" stock at the 45 degree joint?"
NO, biscuits are dried and compressed, made to swell when wetted with glue, likely break your joints or crack the wood itself.
Same idea is to use splines but you make them yourself out of the wood at hand, two per corner should have enough glue area to be permanent.
Been studying this problem all day, even bought and returned a cheap router table. I have not bought a router yet, and I think Roger has solved that problem.
Thanks Roger!
I am going to make my own router table setup, everything I see it either cheap junk or too expensive and still junk in my eyes.
One $500 router table boasted their cast iron, 150 lb router tabletop, was flat to within 0.008"! That's not flat. The one I returned had new, failed plastic router plate leveling screws...
On an entirely separate note, I just got my darkroom sink running hot and cold water in what used to be the living room. I am stoked!
You're better off buying a used shaper, though unfortunately it will take 3/4" or 1" shank bits, and those aren't cheap. But around here, you can buy a used one for $500-1000, and of course it's 50 or 75 years old so you will always be able to resell if for what you paid, once you're done. The plastic crap from Home Depot? It loses 50% of it's value when you open the box it comes in.
A 2x2 "handy panel" of 3/4" mdf with a hole drilled off center, a 2' piece of aluminum angle stock for a fence, a couple c clamps to hold the fence, and a $25 craftsman router off craigslist. Boom. Router table.
My thoughts exactly, I even have everything I need here, well, a free router is coming.
A 2x2 "handy panel" of 3/4" mdf with a hole drilled off center, a 2' piece of aluminum angle stock for a fence, a couple c clamps to hold the fence, and a $25 craftsman router off craigslist. Boom. Router table.
Harold_4074
6-Oct-2013, 16:48
I've often thought about this but never tried it; since the critical distance is from the face of the groundglass to the inside face of the frame, it seems reasonable to mill some stock to that precise thickness, then rip to width. The narrower "rim" of the frame would then be glued on, since its only functions are to beef up the assembly and keep the glass in place. At the corners, make a full lap joint by crossing the two layers of wood from opposite directions.
No?
Yes! I am kinda wandering around this and trying to do it with cheap and few tools. T distance is 5/16" which is not a common store bought hardwood milled size. I have considering finding high grade 5/16" marine or aircraft plywood.
Or finding a cabinet maker to mill me some 5/16" hardwood.
Every other dimension of a back can be rather crude, I have already made some other conversion backs based on premade GG mechanisms.
Maybe build DIY sanding planer.
Look what this guy uses to make guitars. http://woodgears.ca/sander/thickness.html
I've often thought about this but never tried it; since the critical distance is from the face of the groundglass to the inside face of the frame, it seems reasonable to mill some stock to that precise thickness, then rip to width. The narrower "rim" of the frame would then be glued on, since its only functions are to beef up the assembly and keep the glass in place. At the corners, make a full lap joint by crossing the two layers of wood from opposite directions.
No?
Jim Jones
6-Oct-2013, 18:44
With the most basic tools, the back could be laminated from strips of wood, the strips facing the lens being the thickness of the ground glass spacing. However, with a router one can make a more elegant back.
Daniel Moore
6-Oct-2013, 19:37
Jim C. hit it on the head. As long as you keep consistent pressure down and into the fence you could create a clean channel using just about any surface for a table. I'd recommend a common high speed steel 1/2" spiral bit if your new router has a 1/2" collet as they tend to make most jobs smoother and easier to avoid tearout. If you bury the bit into a wooden fence deeper than you need and back it out by tapping one end of the fence you'll have a virtually foolproof tearout protection. Just don't let the bit sit buried in the fence while it's actually touching it and burning and you'll be fine. The goal is to create a few thousandths space all around it. The hole in the table should be kept small as well, which will help with registration of the cut allowing you to put pressure close to the bit. I apologize if any of that is too obvious to you.
Have you decided on how the corners will be joined? You'll get a strong joint if you don't run the channel the whole way, leaving more material for joinery. You could clamp stop blocks to the fence to prevent over cutting. Set up the blocks, pivot into the cut while holding tight against the right side block (which should be secured tightly beyond a doubt so you don't lose a fingertip), plunge in and slide left into the other block.
All great advice, I need these tips, as I will be learning while doing.
Jim C. hit it on the head. As long as you keep consistent pressure down and into the fence you could create a clean channel using just about any surface for a table. I'd recommend a common high speed steel 1/2" spiral bit if your new router has a 1/2" collet as they tend to make most jobs smoother and easier to avoid tearout. If you bury the bit into a wooden fence deeper than you need and back it out by tapping one end of the fence you'll have a virtually foolproof tearout protection. Just don't let the bit sit buried in the fence while it's actually touching it and burning and you'll be fine. The goal is to create a few thousandths space all around it. The hole in the table should be kept small as well, which will help with registration of the cut allowing you to put pressure close to the bit. I apologize if any of that is too obvious to you.
Have you decided on how the corners will be joined? You'll get a strong joint if you don't run the channel the whole way, leaving more material for joinery. You could clamp stop blocks to the fence to prevent over cutting. Set up the blocks, pivot into the cut while holding tight against the right side block, plunge in and slide left into the other block.
Roger Thoms
6-Oct-2013, 21:50
A 2x2 "handy panel" of 3/4" mdf with a hole drilled off center, a 2' piece of aluminum angle stock for a fence, a couple c clamps to hold the fence, and a $25 craftsman router off craigslist. Boom. Router table.
Or a Craftsman router from me for the cost of shipping which could be anywhere for $10.75 on up. :)
Roger
Yup!
Thanks Roger!
Or a Craftsman router from me for the cost of shipping which could be anywhere for $10.75 on up. :)
Roger
Harold_4074
7-Oct-2013, 11:34
Randy,
If you have the time and inclination, you can use a "poor man's abrasive planer".
Make a jig consisting of two fairly wide (3" or more) strips spaced for a sliding fit to your stock and attached to thick base. The base can be grooved if your strips are much thicker than the stock, and a filler can be put in otherwise. Shims (typing paper, manila folder stock, mounting board) are used to adjust the exact depth, and a sanding block (I like 1-1/8" decking plywood with glued-on sandpaper) is used to bring the stock down to exact thickness. The idea is that the combined area of the wide strips is much larger than that of the stock; the former changes hardly at all by the time the latter is done. Check occasionally with vernier calipers, and adjust shims as needed. (Obviously, the more accurately you can rip the stock, the faster the sanding will go.)
You should be able to get the dimension well within the tolerances needed, and probably closer than wood movement will accommodate.
Jac@stafford.net
7-Oct-2013, 12:21
Randy, you could write to Jay Bender (http://www.jaybender.com/BPH/8x10.htm) to see if he would sell you his own 8x10" back kit (just the back). I did just that for the back of my focusing super-wide 4x5" (http://www.digoliardi.net/super-wide-4x5-1.jpg). His work is excellent - very finely machined and accurate.
Drew Wiley
7-Oct-2013, 12:32
If you use one of those small one-hand routers it would be wise to affix an oversized base so that it doesn't get tipsy and ruin your tolerances. Basically, I don't like using routers handheld for this kind of work at all, and when I do, it's about a thousand dollar setup I've got in my hands. If you go cheap, do a practice run or two
on scrap material first. A good straight bit with sharp end-cutting teeth is preferable to a rabbetting or mortising bit. Here again, I'd personally use an upcut solid
carbide version, but that would be ninety bucks or so. You can use high-speed steel, but it will dull quickly. If you don't want to spend the bucks, maybe a cabinet
shop could do it for a modest fee (or immodest). If you err, keep it on the high side, since you can fine-tune things by sanding down afterwards, but not the other
way around.
Sounds good Harold.
Randy,
If you have the time and inclination, you can use a "poor man's abrasive planer".
Make a jig consisting of two fairly wide (3" or more) strips spaced for a sliding fit to your stock and attached to thick base. The base can be grooved if your strips are much thicker than the stock, and a filler can be put in otherwise. Shims (typing paper, manila folder stock, mounting board) are used to adjust the exact depth, and a sanding block (I like 1-1/8" decking plywood with glued-on sandpaper) is used to bring the stock down to exact thickness. The idea is that the combined area of the wide strips is much larger than that of the stock; the former changes hardly at all by the time the latter is done. Check occasionally with vernier calipers, and adjust shims as needed. (Obviously, the more accurately you can rip the stock, the faster the sanding will go.)
You should be able to get the dimension well within the tolerances needed, and probably closer than wood movement will accommodate.
Jac, the goal is 14x17" back.
I already made a conversion back using a Calumet C1 back for 8x10, so I can test cheaply. The C1 back is easily removed using the original mounting bolts.
Also this is a studio only conversion, so weight is not an issue.
Randy, you could write to Jay Bender (http://www.jaybender.com/BPH/8x10.htm) to see if he would sell you his own 8x10" back kit (just the back). I did just that for the back of my focusing super-wide 4x5" (http://www.digoliardi.net/super-wide-4x5-1.jpg). His work is excellent - very finely machined and accurate.
Drew, I will make the base big, I have a community workroom, I can spread out in. I remove my tools nightly, materials are invisible to these people. Vinny also suggested an upcut bit, which I had to look up. I should be able to use cheaper bits as the cuts are small and few. I don't plan to make a habit of this.
I am waiting on a router.
If you use one of those small one-hand routers it would be wise to affix an oversized base so that it doesn't get tipsy and ruin your tolerances. Basically, I don't like using routers handheld for this kind of work at all, and when I do, it's about a thousand dollar setup I've got in my hands. If you go cheap, do a practice run or two
on scrap material first. A good straight bit with sharp end-cutting teeth is preferable to a rabbetting or mortising bit. Here again, I'd personally use an upcut solid
carbide version, but that would be ninety bucks or so. You can use high-speed steel, but it will dull quickly. If you don't want to spend the bucks, maybe a cabinet
shop could do it for a modest fee (or immodest). If you err, keep it on the high side, since you can fine-tune things by sanding down afterwards, but not the other
way around.
Not so sure about the up/down cut router bits, I've never used them, but I'm not too keen on them
"pulling" or "pushing" the work. Simple is better. You're making pretty shallow cuts, standard router
bits have worked well for me and should do well for what you want to do.
Drew Wiley
7-Oct-2013, 13:51
Jim - they don't push or pull the work itself, but the dust one way or another, so it can be efficiently removed from the cut area. The cut itself is cleaner because
these kinds of bits are of spiral rather than linear edge design. But they're not made in a low price point range. Some simple straight bit cut well on the end, some
don't, and that is an important distinction regardless of carbide vs high-speed steel. But one problem doing precision work in the flatness of the template itself. I
prefer using phenolic over something like plywood, which isn't all that flat to begin with. But correctly making the template itself requires some precision router work.
I can easily work within .001" tolerances, but not using plywood or masonite etc. How accurate is accurate enough depends on the intended focal lengths of the
lenses and typical working apertures I guess. But ya gotta be fairly close to avoid light leaks anyway.
Drew - The spirals do offer better chip and dust ejection, but the spiral flutes will cause a tiny bit of pull/push in my estimation,
I saw that when I didn't lock the quill tight enough on my milling machine, which is somewhat related since all my end mill bits are spiral.
I probably wouldn't use them for hand routing, but if they're used in a table setting it might be negligible.
Drew Wiley
8-Oct-2013, 08:23
Milling cutters behave somewhat differently than router bits intended for wood, which ideally have very different edge geometry. Properly made they can be extremely smooth, without any tugging effect. Keeping your work rigid is always a necessity, regardless. The most frequent mistake amateurs do with router tables is have one which isn't completely solid and is capable of vibration. Either that, or the work itself vibrates. Unfortunately, one cannot simply walk into the typical hardware store or home center and pick up ideal router bits. You might get lucky, but generally it takes a specialty shop. I sell to an extremely diverse variety of
pro trade, and have done more than my own share of experiments (including making most of my own darkrm equip), so have a lot of hand-on experience as to what works and what doesn't with specific materials. Perhaps I am indeed spoiled having the advantage of borrowing a high-end piece of gear for personal projects, but really, it's encouraged both by the company and the specific manufacturers to keep me informed.
speedfreak
21-Oct-2013, 20:51
103353
I made a picture for you. This is a very simple yet effective method that will allow you to achieve the result that you want.
First, by a decent quality trim router as even the better ones are only around $110. The bit you need is a 1/2" mortiseing bit with a bearing at the top of the bit. All trim routers have 1/4" collet, so make sure to get a 1/4" shank bit.
Next, remove the plastic base from the router and trace the bear metal "sub base" and screw holes on one side of the material. Insert the bit in router, but don't burry all the way until the bit bottoms out...
speedfreak
21-Oct-2013, 21:02
You want the bearing to be sticking above the opposite surface once the router is mounted. You'll probably have to remove a bit of material on the mounting side in order to accomplish this. The mortise doesn't have to be nice just large enough tot easily fit the router sub base. Drill a 3/4" hole right were the bit centers.
Once this is accomplished and the router is mounted to the 3/4 material you can make the spacer frame for the camera back.
Here's the cool part; the bearing on the bit will ride on a surface and will allow the bit to cut the material above the spacer exactly flush. Determine the height of spacer needed in order for you to make a cut deeper than you'd like. Determine the outside dimensions of you rabbit (the name of the type of cut your making). Cut spacer material so it's sufficiently wide enough to not be tippy, and is located at the boundary the cut you want to make.
speedfreak
21-Oct-2013, 21:11
Secure the space to the back. Double sided tape, 23ga micro nails (my favorite), brad nails, etc. Adjust router so you make a small cut into you material, don't try to take it all at once, you want to "sneak" up on this critical cut. Make successive cuts until you've achieve the desired dim. Remove spacer material.
You'll be left with radiused corners. Take a sharp chisel and par away the wood until you have a nice square corner. Sand to desired final dim. (Which should be minimal) and your all set.
speedfreak
21-Oct-2013, 21:23
A few more things. Make sure that the spacer material is all the exact same thickness and the table is relatively flat and you exert even downward pressure at the cutting area, as all of these things will effect the depth of cut at any given point.
Feed the material into the bit the "right" way, wether fed from left or right into the spinning bit will make a difference, you want to have the bit feeding into the stock from where material has already been removed. You don't want the bit wanting to "climb" or feed itself as adverse cutting can occur and the cleanest surface is hard to achieve.
I hope all this makes sense. Let me know if you've got questions :)
-Josh
Tin Can
21-Oct-2013, 21:42
Yes, that does make sense, and good ideas as I didn't know how to setup with a spacer and a bearing bit. Heck, I never used a router, but that never stopped me. I built a wood boat with tiny hand saws, just to do it, and it's hanging over my head right now.
This is a long term project that I will attack as I gain time, understanding and desire.
Thank you!
A few more things. Make sure that the spacer material is all the exact same thickness and the table is relatively flat and you exert even downward pressure at the cutting area, as all of these things will effect the depth of cut at any given point.
Feed the material into the bit the "right" way, wether fed from left or right into the spinning bit will make a difference, you want to have the bit feeding into the stock from where material has already been removed. You don't want the bit wanting to "climb" or feed itself as adverse cutting can occur and the cleanest surface is hard to achieve.
I hope all this makes sense. Let me know if you've got questions :)
-Josh
Drew Wiley
22-Oct-2013, 08:21
If you've never used a router, just realize that these can rout a lot more than your intended material, including your fingers! There are numerous on-line safety
videos you might want to watch first.
Tin Can
22-Oct-2013, 09:32
Thanks Drew, I will respect the tool and my fingers. I have used many machine tools safely professionally for decades. However, I am new to wood and routers. If I still had access to a Bridgeport, I would make it out of aluminum, after all this is for a studio camera where weight is no problem.
That gives me an idea...
If you've never used a router, just realize that these can rout a lot more than your intended material, including your fingers! There are numerous on-line safety
videos you might want to watch first.
AuditorOne
22-Oct-2013, 09:43
I hate routers. One tiny slip and the work is a mess. If you must use one put it in a table and use the fence. In a table the bearing bit isn't needed.
Cheap router bits are tempting, but almost always a waste of time. They will burn up way too easy. Buy a good carbide bit and it will do the job you want.
I prefer the table saw and finish with a rabbet plane. Much easier to set up and a lot easier to control. Not as fast as a router but you aren't running a production shop either.
Good luck with the project.
Jon Shiu
22-Oct-2013, 09:46
Wouldn't it be easier/faster/more precise to glue in some strips to hold the ground glass?
Jon
Drew Wiley
22-Oct-2013, 09:58
It would be pretty difficult to find or make strips of the right thickness, unless you resort to something like phenolics.
Tin Can
22-Oct-2013, 10:08
Yes Jon, I am considering that also, I have some thin, 0.002" double sided 3M structural tapes I am experimenting with. I used tape and acetate to convert some holders to 11x14, there's a thread on that in DIY. I think we could tape together a whole camera, and one friend has suggested making an entire bellows from tape and stiffeners!
This is for studio use and I am not a conformist.
My favorite camera construction is a magnesium Calumet C1, not my favorite camera, but a darn good camera and a back that never wears out. I have used a spare C1 back to make conversion backs, really easy and they work well. And they bolt on!
Thanks for the idea! :)
Wouldn't it be easier/faster/more precise to glue in some strips to hold the ground glass?
Jon
Jon Shiu
22-Oct-2013, 10:13
It would be pretty difficult to find or make strips of the right thickness, unless you resort to something like phenolics.
The thickness of the strips doesn't really matter if the inside dimension of the frame is slightly bigger than the glass (ie the glass can drop through.) The little "shelves" would be freely positioned. Some of the inexpensive folding c. 1890's 5x7 Cycle cameras were made like this.
Jon
John Koehrer
22-Oct-2013, 12:58
Home Depot rents tools if you're not inclined to buy. Other tool rental joints too.
CL is good if you're looking for a one time use, then resell it.
Tin Can
22-Oct-2013, 13:12
A member here actually sent me a free router, with bits. Thanks again Roger Thoms!
Home Depot rents tools if you're not inclined to buy. Other tool rental joints too.
CL is good if you're looking for a one time use, then resell it.
Drew Wiley
22-Oct-2013, 13:45
Auditor - A decent rabbet plane costs more than the average amateur router, esp the kind of disposable crap like Cheapo Depot sells. Table saws are way down
my list in terms of accuracy, with a few exceptions. I do have my eye on purchasing a particular rabbetting power planer that cuts the wood so clean it makes the average router look like a medieval spiked ball by comparison. But in the meantime, I borrow it once in awhile. But the whole nomenclature thing of rebates, rabbets,
rabbits ... And all along I thought the Brits called them hares ... "Rebate pot pie"?? - I even sell something called a "bunny plane", i.e., a miniatured set of rabbet planes for violin makers etc.
Tin Can
22-Oct-2013, 13:51
Yep, jargon and acronyms...bah humbug.
Auditor - A decent rabbet plane costs more than the average amateur router, esp the kind of disposable crap like Cheapo Depot sells. Table saws are way down
my list in terms of accuracy, with a few exceptions. I do have my eye on purchasing a particular rabbetting power planer that cuts the wood so clean it makes the average router look like a medieval spiked ball by comparison. But in the meantime, I borrow it once in awhile. But the whole nomenclature thing of rebates, rabbets,
rabbits ... And all along I thought the Brits called them hares ... "Rebate pot pie"?? - I even sell something called a "bunny plane", i.e., a miniatured set of rabbet planes for violin makers etc.
Drew Wiley
22-Oct-2013, 16:28
Woodworking is fun anyway, even if you have to enlist the help of rabbits.
Harold_4074
22-Oct-2013, 16:31
even if you have to enlist the help of rabbits
But every time I do that my tenons end up just a hare's breath oversize!
Tin Can
22-Oct-2013, 17:24
We all get there one way or another. The fun is in the journey. I prefer a do it twice DIY effort than store bought solutions. In the factory I worked, we made everything we possibly could, my boss thought that was a good way to keep us busy and employed. Making a custom dyno engine stand for a new Cummins truck was a joy and heavy work. Also it could not break, as it needed to endure years of continuous running. I miss that job. If there was no real work, we made things to learn skills. All mechanics had to make their own toolboxes as their first assignment. I made a 2 person 4 wheel pedal car. I bought and paid for all materials, but when I had free time...
May as well show it here, shot with Pentax H3, sure a lot of parts are re-purposed, but king pins, axles, crank hangers, brakes, tie rods, bla, bla, bla were all machine shop learning experiences. It could be disassembled in 20 minutes to fit in a car trunk, and it was the size of a small car. Drove it on streets of Chicago and bicycle paths. I donated it to http://www.youngscientistchallenge.com/ for parts.
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speedfreak
22-Oct-2013, 21:26
Nice ride! What a great way it could have been to get the massive camera to the shooting location along a nice wide bike path :)
In response to one of the posts above about being able to use a fence instead of a mortising bit with a bearing. The bearing and bit rely on the spacer material to act as a "fence". This way you can feed the material into the bit at any point without fear of going past your outside dimension.
With a fence you'd have to place the back to the fence and drop it onto the spinning bit to "plunge" into your material. You'd have to have perfectly set stops in place on the fence to prevent you from cutting beyond your outside dimension. The fence allows great accuracy but in this case it would possibly be a liability.
Tin Can
22-Oct-2013, 22:03
We were really too wide for Lake Michigan bike trail, but we only went there midweek, midday and in the north end there is less traffic. Believe me I know we were big, but we were officially a bicycle. This was 20 years ago and now they rent them downtown...
I need to set up in our community workshop and start trying this business, but right now our leaders are 'organizing' the space. :(
Nice ride! What a great way it could have been to get the massive camera to the shooting location along a nice wide bike path :)
In response to one of the posts above about being able to use a fence instead of a mortising bit with a bearing. The bearing and bit rely on the spacer material to act as a "fence". This way you can feed the material into the bit at any point without fear of going past your outside dimension.
With a fence you'd have to place the back to the fence and drop it onto the spinning bit to "plunge" into your material. You'd have to have perfectly set stops in place on the fence to prevent you from cutting beyond your outside dimension. The fence allows great accuracy but in this case it would possibly be a liability.
Somebody sent me free Litho tape, I presume because of this thread, but there is no name attached to the 'free' invoice. Whomever you are, thank you!
Finally got the router up and running. Got a Craftsman diecast aluminum, made in USA, router bench to match the router from Roger Thoms. Didn't cut this project yet, but did use it to make new bellows frames for my Deardorff SC11. This thing works great! I think this little kit will be all I need to make my 'precision' ULF camera.
Gotta work faster, Spring is coming!
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Roger Thoms
8-Dec-2013, 08:27
Hey Randy, great to hear the router is working out for you, and that it's being put to good use. The router bench looks like a good find too.
Roger
AuditorOne
8-Dec-2013, 10:40
That Craftsman is a great little router table. Have fun!!
Steve Smith
8-Dec-2013, 10:44
I hate routers. One tiny slip and the work is a mess.
The only router I use a a CNC one. It goes where you tell it to (usually!).
Steve.
Ship me your CNC and I will test it for the next 30 years. Or shorter depending on my longevity...
The only router I use a a CNC one. It goes where you tell it to (usually!).
Steve.
Steve Smith
8-Dec-2013, 12:46
Ship me your CNC and I will test it for the next 30 years. Or shorter depending on my longevity...
Make your own!!!
I currently use an Excellon machine at work which was intended to drill and rout printed circuit boards. I use it to make test jigs and assembly aids... and cameras - see my panoramic camera link in my signature line.
I am also using it to make my own CNC router.
If you do a Google search for DIY CNC you will find all sorts of clever applications of various complexities which people use to make their own machines.
Steve.
Andrew O'Neill
8-Dec-2013, 13:09
When I was routing the edge to hold the GG, I did it with a hand held router. That's what real men do... :cool:
Or was it real men do it with a hammer and chisel??
Steve Smith
8-Dec-2013, 13:18
Real men would use a rebate plane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebate_plane
However, I am new to wood and routers. If I still had access to a Bridgeport, I would make it out of aluminum, after all this is for a studio camera where weight is no problem.
Despite having made guitars with hand tools only, I tend to treat all materials the same now. If it can be machined out of aluminium, I will use the same technique for wood (or Perspex).
Steve.
Real men whittle while drinking moonshine, after they hand bore a rifle barrel.
Michael Cienfuegos
8-Dec-2013, 22:06
Real men whittle while drinking moonshine, after they hand bore a rifle barrel.
No wonder you have so many physical problems. :D
m
:)
No wonder you have so many physical problems. :D
m
Real men would use a rebate plane.
Steve.
REALLY REAL men use a marking gauge and a shoulder plane...;)
Drew Wiley
9-Dec-2013, 16:52
Real men used something called a burin, flaked from an obsidian core, and made their groundglass backs out of mammoth ivory. It helped to kill the mammoth first,
before it killed you. You had to keep your distance until your atlatl was properly loaded. They didn't have autofocus cameras back then either. And if you spent too
long under the darkcloth, the smell of the wooly hide would get to you - if your own smell didn't get to you first.... At least this last feature of LF photography hasn't
changed much over the millennia.
Michael Cienfuegos
9-Dec-2013, 22:07
Real men used something called a burin, flaked from an obsidian core, and made their groundglass backs out of mammoth ivory. It helped to kill the mammoth first,
before it killed you. You had to keep your distance until your atlatl was properly loaded. They didn't have autofocus cameras back then either. And if you spent too
long under the darkcloth, the smell of the wooly hide would get to you - if your own smell didn't get to you first.... At least this last feature of LF photography hasn't
changed much over the millennia.
Are you trying to say that Old LF Photographers never die, they just smell that way? :confused:
m
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