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View Full Version : A good read......"Art and Fear"



Kirk Gittings
23-Sep-2013, 11:45
At the prompting of my good friend Jan Pietrzak (who gave this to me as a present) I started reading this while waiting for rain storms to pass while the Artist-in-residence at the Petrified Forest. As a veteran artist of some 43 years, I thought I would not get much out of it, but to my delightful surprise I found it insightful and illuminating. ASMOF I think it should be required reading for the official artist license test. :)

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Fear-Observations-Rewards-Artmaking/dp/0961454733

102301

Mark Sawyer
23-Sep-2013, 11:53
It has a sort of a sequel: The View From The Studio Door: How Artists Find Their Way In An Uncertain World by Ted Orland. Both books are worth the read if you contemplate such thoughts...

Kirk Gittings
23-Sep-2013, 11:57
Have you read Art and Fear? What did you think? I just discovered the "sequel" today. I will likely pick it up.

Peter Mounier
23-Sep-2013, 12:09
I learned a new acronym today, and it's not Australian Salaried Medical Officers Federation.
In case I'm not the only one wondering, I think ASMOF means As A Matter Of Fact.

Jerry Bodine
23-Sep-2013, 12:35
Close. That would be ASAMOF. Check this (http://www.netlingo.com/dictionary/a.php) out. Scroll down the left-hand side to find it. :)

Peter Mounier
23-Sep-2013, 12:52
Oh man, guessing acronyms can be frustrating. It really should be AAMOF. No reason to spell out "as" when all other words are substituted by the initial letter only. :confused:

Kirk Gittings
23-Sep-2013, 13:17
Ok guys how about the book? :)

Jan Pietrzak
23-Sep-2013, 13:34
Kirk,

I am glad you like it. I met Ted and David back in 1974 at and AA workshop. This has been a book that I have been carrying around for many years. While doing a weekend staff retreat for UC Santa Cruz I had Ted sign my copy. He looked it over and asked if he could look at it that night, and see what I had noted on the pages. The next morning, Ted told me that he had stayed up to make notes on my notes. He gave me back my now signed copy and a new copy and said lets see what you can do with this new one. It is a wonderful book, that I have encouraged my students read and keep notes in. It is the best $10.00, 12.00 or 15.00 you will ever spend.

Jan Pietrzak

Kirk Gittings
23-Sep-2013, 13:43
I agree completely. Thanks for that gift!

Jerry Bodine
23-Sep-2013, 14:01
Ok guys how about the book? :)

Oh, right .... the book! (acronym was fun while it lasted). Sorry for the digression. Well, I managed to finish the book during a lengthy wait in a hospital reading area while a friend was being treated for terminal cancer - didn't last much longer. Can't say I got a lot out of the book during the first quick read, doesn't speak well of my comprehension "skills." I should re-read now that I can concentrate better and make notes.

Jan Pietrzak
23-Sep-2013, 14:20
Jerry,

Your in Seattle, try this a nice easy chair, fire in the fire place, a nice glass of port. Give it a try, if that dose not work try a second glass of port.

Jan Pietrzak

Jerry Bodine
23-Sep-2013, 14:32
Jerry,

Your in Seattle, try this a nice easy chair, fire in the fire place, a nice glass of port. Give it a try, if that dose not work try a second glass of port.

Jan Pietrzak

:) Sounds good to me.

Vaughn
23-Sep-2013, 15:44
Read both...Art and Fear a couple of times, The View... just once so far. Very (extremely) good reads. I have a "Quote of the Week" I put up outside my office door (photo storeroom, etc for the university) along with a photo of the week. If I am not putting up a quote by Herman Hesse or from The Essential Crazy Wisdom (http://www.amazon.com/The-Essential-Crazy-Wisdom-Nisker/dp/1580083463), something from Art and Fear or The View... usually goes up!

Jody_S
23-Sep-2013, 16:28
What are these 'artists' I keep hearing about? I've never met one. Am I an 'artist'? All I know is 'humans'. In other words, 'people'. The guy next door who paints (apartments). The uncle with a dSLR who takes pictures of flowers, and has 2 or 3 of his best in every room of his house. The other uncle who bowls (not very well), with a glass of rum & coke in his hand, and a wry smile as he discusses the merits of different weed killers for 'broadleafs' (whatever those are). And myself, who can't tell the difference between Ilford DD-X and Ilfosol 3.

Kirk Gittings
23-Sep-2013, 19:03
Read both...Art and Fear a couple of times, The View... just once so far. Very (extremely) good reads. I have a "Quote of the Week" I put up outside my office door (photo storeroom, etc for the university) along with a photo of the week. If I am not putting up a quote by Herman Hesse or from The Essential Crazy Wisdom (http://www.amazon.com/The-Essential-Crazy-Wisdom-Nisker/dp/1580083463), something from Art and Fear or The View... usually goes up!

Ok soooooo I am no doubt late to this parade, but thanks to Jan I got here :)

Vaughn
23-Sep-2013, 19:59
Never too late for a great read! LOL!

don mishler
23-Sep-2013, 20:31
as I think Amazon has enough money, why not order it directly from Ted Orland and give him a little extra support. check out this link and get a autographed copy
http://tedorland.com/purchase.html

Kirk Gittings
23-Sep-2013, 20:36
Excellent idea!

Jan Pietrzak
23-Sep-2013, 21:26
I saw that the Big A had a audio copy, to bad that David and Ted did not do the narration of the book. Now that would be something to have. If you ever get a chance to see and listen to Ted and David do so it is great fun. And YES do order the book from Ted it will make it much more fun. I would see Ted just about every year at Al Weber's Rendezvous. And I would get a stack of books from him. When Ted was doing a listing of book sellers he told me that I was like third or forth in the state in of book sellers. Like I said it is the best 10 12 15 bucks you will spend. Oh, buy and extra one as a gift for some one.

Jan Pietrzak

Vaughn
23-Sep-2013, 21:52
One of our professors (photo) made it required reading for a class a few years ago.

mdm
24-Sep-2013, 00:56
I read it on kindle some time ago, but forgot what it sayes. Anyway IMHO fear precludes true creativity which I think comes from a flowing meditative state. We make images as a discipline or practice, then someday we reach that special place if we are lucky, often not appreciating that we are there. It then takes someone with the discernment of Paul Caponigro or Ansel Adams to recognise the gem in Running White Deer, Pears or Moonrise and make a master print.

Ed Richards
25-Oct-2013, 12:32
A good read, but a somewhat depressing one. It stresses the theme that art is about making art. It is not about the artist life, the arts community, or even the acceptance of the art by the world. The archetype seems to be van Gogh. It is a liberating vision. I am not sure I would call it inspiring, in the sense that it did not make me put down the book full of energy for doing art. But in the longer term, it is probably the only vision that will keep you making art - unless you are the one in a very large N who get acceptance and reward in the marketplace.

Kirk Gittings
25-Oct-2013, 12:59
Really? Maybe we read different books or maybe we are in different places in our life and need different things. I found it not about the myth of the troubled genius at all, but about a kind of working class approach to art making. That was what was refreshing to me. In illuminating and stressing that hard work and the daily grind making art is the common path to successful art making, it posits that simple hard work trumps the myth of genius (or troubled genius), it provides (to me anyway) a realsitic and sober assessment of the working life of a "successful" artist in all its various manifestations. There is little in there that I didn't know on some level of consciousness, but hearing it from a fellow traveler in a thoughtful and logical manner I found affirming and helps me clear out those obsessive un-constructive self critical voices that come from the myths that are to me depressing.

Its the hyper bullshit of the art pep talk that we hear so much in art that I find ultimately depressing. It not only does not lead to a genuine personal vision, but sets you up for failure because it is unrealistic.

Drew Wiley
25-Oct-2013, 13:10
... a lot of the old stereotypes about Van Gogh are getting gradually debunked as new forms of speculation or rumor emerge. Who the heck knows what goes on in
any of our heads. The art critics sure don't. I think they're job is to make entertaining reading, whether it's on point or not.

Kimberly Anderson
25-Oct-2013, 13:27
Its the hyper bullshit of the art pep talk that we hear so much in art that I find ultimately depressing. - Kirk Gittings

Thank you for providing the Quote of the Day. As for my take on A&F, read it if you dare. If you don't come away from reading it realizing that you are much more able to make art than you realize then you are probably one of the ones that loves to lap up the hyper bullshit...or you are the one selling it.

Vaughn
25-Oct-2013, 13:33
A good read, but a somewhat depressing one. It stresses the theme that art is about making art. It is not about the artist life, the arts community, or even the acceptance of the art by the world. The archetype seems to be van Gogh. It is a liberating vision. I am not sure I would call it inspiring, in the sense that it did not make me put down the book full of energy for doing art. But in the longer term, it is probably the only vision that will keep you making art - unless you are the one in a very large N who get acceptance and reward in the marketplace.

That is the next book -- The View from the Studio Door: How Artists Find Their Way In an Uncertain World, by Ted Orlands, 2006

Kirk Gittings
25-Oct-2013, 13:37
Drew did you actually read the book? I saw nothing there about Van Gogh as the archetype-which was why it was so refreshing.

Drew Wiley
25-Oct-2013, 13:51
I was just responding to a previous post, Kirk... and not making a remark about the book per se. Anyway, probably nobody will ever know the truth about him unless
they exhume his body and test for lead and cadmium poisoning, which still won't explain his genius. But I wouldn't mind a good read on the next long plane flight,
whether the text makes sense or not.

Ed Richards
25-Oct-2013, 13:52
Kirk, don't blame Drew, I brought up van Gogh. :-) It may be that we see van Gogh differently. I see him as a heroic figure - despite his serious problems, he kept working on technique and turning out paintings out of his inner drive. Cezanne is another. Monet finally got acceptance as tastes evolved but still kept working, despite his disability.

Kirk Gittings
25-Oct-2013, 14:03
I was just responding to a previous post, Kirk... and not making a remark about the book per se. Anyway, probably nobody will ever know the truth about him unless
they exhume his body and test for lead and cadmium poisoning, which still won't explain his genius. But I wouldn't mind a good read on the next long plane flight,
whether the text makes sense or not.

While we don't know the truth.....we all know the myth....no?

Ed Richards
25-Oct-2013, 15:14
I am not thinking about his craziness - likely schizophrenia - but his pressing on with his work and his technique despite the craziness. I don't buy the crazy genius story. He worked hard. Lots of crazy people see a different reality, but not many turn that skewed frame of reference into brilliantly executed art.

Amedeus
25-Oct-2013, 16:17
In illuminating and stressing that hard work and the daily grind making art is the common path to successful art making, it posits that simple hard work trumps the myth of genius (or troubled genius), it provides (to me anyway) a realsitic and sober assessment of the working life of a "successful" artist in all its various manifestations..

I didn't read any of the books mentioned in this thread yet (will do ... ) but "Talent is overrated" by Geoff Colvin touches in a way on the same subject ... he calls the hard work leading to success "deliberate practice" and cites a good amount of research with examples around it. Hard work in itself is not necessarily a recipe for success but hard work with a goal or in the right direction delivers results that sets one genius apart from the other.

Drew Wiley
25-Oct-2013, 16:27
Well, it does seem that his act of suicide is now being seriously questioned. I've seen painter friends of mine poisoned enough by heavy metal pigments to understand
what that can do. Nowadays "artistes" seem more into piercing and tatooing themselves than cutting ears off, but what's the difference? Bizarre behavior never has
been the mark of an artist anyway. Some are drunken wackos for some reason, and others are just as fluent yet seem like ordinary people. And I'd never bother asking a shrink why, because that's one profession more than its fair share of even goofier practitioners. I am one person who regards art and an art "lifestyle" as
completely unrelated. This town is utterly filled with "artistes" with both pigments and cameras, and damn few produce anything worth looking at. A few do, and
they're relatively ordinary people otherwise.

Brian Sims
25-Oct-2013, 16:47
I think it was Thomas Edison who said, "Invention is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration." Replace "invention" with "art" and you probably have the ratio right. I've read a lot about creativity, and no matter what the creative result (a new interpretation of a classic landscape, a break-though discovery in medicine, or an inspired pot of soup) most of the effort is hard work--hard work leading up to the AHA moment and hard work making and perfecting the inspired work.

Brian Sims
25-Oct-2013, 16:50
oh...and I just downloaded the book onto my Kindle....look forward to reading it.

Ed Richards
26-Oct-2013, 07:02
Moving away from the metaphysics of the book, I like the pottery class example: students were divided into two groups. One was told the would be graded on the single best pot they made during the term. The other was told they would be only be evaluated by the number of pots they made. The group who just made as many pots as possible also produced the best pots by the end of the course.

This fits into my own prejudice that you make the best images by making a lot of image, not by waiting for the perfect occasion to make an image or using the ultimate gear to make the image. Now, do I follow this? Not nearly as much as I should. I lust after new gear, thinking it will make it easier to make more images, and I do not drag the view camera out nearly enough and just shoot. I also do not spend nearly enough time on the equivalent of darkroom time. For example, I shot several hundred sheets of film documenting the damage and recovery from Hurricane Katrina. We are now a little less than 2 years from the 10th anniversary of the storm and i should be going through all of those, reprocessing and rescanning, and putting together a story.

So maybe the book will prove to a useful kick in the ass for me.:-)

Jody_S
26-Oct-2013, 07:48
Moving away from the metaphysics of the book, I like the pottery class example: students were divided into two groups. One was told the would be graded on the single best pot they made during the term. The other was told they would be only be evaluated by the number of pots they made. The group who just made as many pots as possible also produced the best pots by the end of the course.

This fits into my own prejudice that you make the best images by making a lot of image, not by waiting for the perfect occasion to make an image or using the ultimate gear to make the image. (...)

Interesting analogy. Though it seems to contradict everything we assume about 'art'. Was that from the book, or was it yours?

Jody_S
26-Oct-2013, 07:52
I was just responding to a previous post, Kirk... and not making a remark about the book per se. Anyway, probably nobody will ever know the truth about him unless
they exhume his body and test for lead and cadmium poisoning, which still won't explain his genius.

The most convincing theory I've read to date is that he was color-blind. His choice of colors is apparently consistent with how color-blind people see the world. But, of course, I wasn't there either, and the colors are only part of what makes his work exceptional.

Brian Ellis
26-Oct-2013, 09:59
Bruce Barnbaum handed out a copy of "Art And Fear" to each of the participants in one of his workshops some years ago. Excellent book.

Ed Richards
26-Oct-2013, 10:01
> Interesting analogy. Though it seems to contradict everything we assume about 'art'. Was that from the book, or was it yours?

From the book. it is pretty consistent with the practice makes perfect view. For an art class, where they are learning to make pots, a physical skill, it makes even more sense. Like playing the piano. But I think I see better the more time I spend shooting, rather than just thinking about shooting.

Mark Sawyer
26-Oct-2013, 10:28
I think it was Thomas Edison who said, "Invention is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration."

These days, I think it's closer to one percent inspiration and 99 percent litigation.

The example of throwing pots in quantity to improve quality has its merits, but if one is taking the class for a grade, one is still just following orders and learning the lesson. The best potter would be that singular student who threw pots for quantity and quality, and even more so, for the love of working in clay and making the pots, regardless of the class.

Ed Richards
26-Oct-2013, 11:37
> The best potter would be that singular student who threw pots for quantity and quality, and even more so, for the love of working in clay and making the pots, regardless of the class.

Maybe not. Maybe the best potter is just a grade grubbing student with a really good work ethic. Maybe all that stuff about loving what you are doing is just a better spin on being obsessive compulsive and doing something because you have no other life skills or friends. Maybe we have crazy artists because being crazy meant they had no friends and nothing else to do, so they just worked on their art.:-)

Mark Sawyer
26-Oct-2013, 14:42
Maybe not. Maybe the best potter is just a grade grubbing student with a really good work ethic...

Maybe it all depends on how you define the "best potter"... :rolleyes:

Ed Richards
26-Oct-2013, 15:57
> Maybe it all depends on how you define the "best potter".

The book is also good on that point. While is OK and necessary to work for yourself, when anyone else judges your art, all they care about is the art. How hard you worked or how big the camera was does not count. So the best potter from outside the potter's head is just the one that produces the best pots. The notion of grades of artist, rather than art, are meaningless.

Mark Sawyer
26-Oct-2013, 20:58
So the best potter from outside the potter's head is just the one that produces the best pots...

Perhaps, then, it depends on how one defines the "best" pots...

Curt
27-Oct-2013, 00:48
Kirk, Jan, Vaughn, etal, I just ordered the book and will order the other too. Thanks Kirk for posting this. Jan, I still remember and think about the visit to your home, sorry I sat in "the" chair briefly and your darkroom down stairs is super. Vaugh, you never mentioned the reading list to me! I hope my copy arrives in time for the flight to the George Eastman House workshop with Mark Osterman, hours of reading time on the flight would be perfect.

Vaughn
27-Oct-2013, 11:07
...Vaugh, you never mentioned the reading list to me!...

Sorry...I forget that other people still read books...;)

LaurentB
27-Oct-2013, 14:27
This is one of the best readings I ever had on photography. I read it again and again, as it seems to help me getting off ruts I tend to fall in.

TXFZ1
27-Oct-2013, 16:02
I bought a copy of "Art and Fear" and "A View from the Studio Door," have enjoyed it so far. Another good read or mostly good read is "The Art Spirit" by Robert Henri. I say mostly as I have never read it completely from start to end. It is a book that I pick up and read when required.

David

Greg Miller
28-Oct-2013, 08:54
> Maybe it all depends on how you define the "best potter".

The book is also good on that point. While is OK and necessary to work for yourself, when anyone else judges your art, all they care about is the art. How hard you worked or how big the camera was does not count. So the best potter from outside the potter's head is just the one that produces the best pots. The notion of grades of artist, rather than art, are meaningless.

Amen.

Wayne
29-Oct-2013, 06:42
I bought/read read it years ago. One of the most dreadfully boring things I've ever forced myself to read.

Curt
30-Oct-2013, 01:23
I ordered it and received it in a day (Amazon). I'm on page 35 and I find it very informative. I'm not sure that everyone will learn or be enlightened by it but I was reminded in a kind of déjà vu of specific examples in the book that seemed to ring true. I would say that a person will get out of this read what they bring to the table. I wasn't looking for a self help book so I'm neither elated nor saddened so far.

swmcl
13-Nov-2013, 17:54
G'Day,

I purchased this book on the strength of this thread and can say that I will read it again. It has been a very encouraging read.

Cheers,

gleaf
13-Nov-2013, 19:14
I found it to meet the thin book paradox. Be careful. They cause many questions you must answer yourself.

Robert Langham
25-Nov-2013, 06:17
I've passed out Art and Fear for years to all my artist friends. Beyond the Studio Door is just as good. Required reading for any artist. I've branched out and read Ted's other books and Davids. All interesting reading though Ted has the better of it, I think.

Jan, we must have met at that workshop.

105310

Brian C. Miller
21-May-2014, 10:52
This is the only thing that resonated with me: "To the artist, art is a verb." (p. 90)

Of course, that's something that I had decided on long ago. Art is not a noun. Art is the expression of an act, and without that act, art cannot exist. Does the dance exist after the dancers are still? Does music exist after the musicians have put down their instruments? There is the art of dance, art of music, art of war. The art of photography is not the print, but what has led up to the print.

The act of creation is not a disorder. This is nature of the artist, to create. The artist is following the true natural path, creating something. For photographers, it's typified by what Vivian Maier did. Go. Click the shutter until the film runs out. Reload. Do it again. Scrat, from the movie Ice Age, collected nuts, a huge hoard of nuts. It was Scrat's nature to collect nuts. The photographer collects moments. It is the base nature of the photographer to collect those moments, again and again and again. Go. Photograph. Go. Photograph. Go. Photograph.

When the artist is in tune with the nature of the art, there is no fear. There is nothing to fear, not even fear itself. Photography is an act. Yes, there may be consequences to the act, but there is no fear within the act itself.

How do you know if you are a photographer? Your nature is to go and gather moments, using a camera. If you gathered moments using words, you would be a poet or a storyteller. It is your base nature to go and photograph.

Go. Photograph. Go. Photograph. Go. Photograph.

Go.

Photograph.

Kirk Gittings
21-May-2014, 11:12
That only describes one avenue in photography, perhaps the core avenue of photography. Consider Moholy-Nagy, Witkin, Kazanjian, Uelsman-artists who assembled images or created things solely to be photographed. Photography is much bigger than "gathering moments".

Tracy Storer
21-May-2014, 11:17
I started reading it shortly before moving a couple years ago.....I'll have to dig it out and finish, it came highly recommended to me by Patrick Alt.

Brian C. Miller
21-May-2014, 11:50
Kirk, without those gathered moments (http://www.amazon.com/Frederick-Leo-Lionni/dp/0394826140/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400703018&sr=1-1&keywords=frederic+leo+lionni), what would they have?

pieszkkaaa
21-May-2014, 15:54
I reading it shortly before moving a couple one month ago

dsphotog
21-May-2014, 16:11
Best to order direct from Ted Orland, support the artist instead of Amazon.

David R Munson
22-May-2014, 03:35
I've read it three times now and still don't like it. It strikes me as trite, forgettable, and very overrated.

So why keep reading it every few years? Because enough people I trust find a lot of value in it. I'm sure the good stuff is there - maybe eventually I'll see it. Last time wasn't as bad as before, but I still don't get the fuss.

That said, I am glad that it seems to be such a great resource for so many people. I'm all for people finding things that work for them, even if I don't like/understand/whatever.

Robert Langham
22-May-2014, 03:53
These days, with used books so dirt cheap at Amazon it's easy to get on a reading thread and ride it quite a long way. I read All of Orlands books, plus David Bayles, branched out to give myself a full education in Stiegliz, Strand, O'keefe, Stiechen, jumped over to survey the Newhalls and Weston, then off to read Craig Childs and David Roberts on the Southwest. Now trying Peter Matthissen, (who is nearly unreadable). Great time to read on a budget.

You can currently get a used copy of William Clift's "Certain Places" for about 16 bucks....delivered.

jp
22-May-2014, 04:53
These days, with used books so dirt cheap at Amazon it's easy to get on a reading thread and ride it quite a long way.

Yep. Amazon prime is my library card, and I don't have to return the books if I don't get to them in two weeks, and don't need to use any gas to get back and forth to the library.

I didn't think art and fear applied 100% to anyone, but perhaps the author, but there's still enough good stuff in it so everyone can get something out of it. It also helps one communicate with artists and about art.

I've read a couple nice books on Edward Curtis, and a bunch of pictorialism books to fill in the gaps omitted by Newhall's photo history.

Brian C. Miller
22-May-2014, 13:08
I've read it three times now and still don't like it. It strikes me as trite, forgettable, and very overrated.

Brian's reading list:
Frederick, by Leo Lionni (http://www.randomhousekids.com/books/detail/101916-frederick)
A Book of Five Rings, by Miyamoto Musashi
On Being a Photographer, by David Hurn and Bill Jay

Kirk Gittings
22-May-2014, 15:40
I've read it three times now and still don't like it. It strikes me as trite, forgettable, and very overrated.

So why keep reading it every few years? Because enough people I trust find a lot of value in it. I'm sure the good stuff is there - maybe eventually I'll see it. Last time wasn't as bad as before, but I still don't get the fuss.

That said, I am glad that it seems to be such a great resource for so many people. I'm all for people finding things that work for them, even if I don't like/understand/whatever.

Whether it resonates may have to do with ones background and/or where one is at in their career. It doesn't really say anything positive or negative about anyone regardless of whether they like it or not. Its just a tool and of use to some and not others. No more no less.

Kirk Gittings
22-May-2014, 15:44
Brian's reading list:
Frederick, by Leo Lionni (http://www.randomhousekids.com/books/detail/101916-frederick)
A Book of Five Rings, by Miyamoto Musashi
On Being a Photographer, by David Hurn and Bill Jay

Now there are some new names I will take a look at. Except BJ who I knew when he was at UNM-Nice guy, I probably read most of what he wrote but never figured out what the big deal was.

Brian C. Miller
22-May-2014, 19:47
Kirk, if you have grandkids, Frederick would be a great one to read with them. Yes, I read that book, among many others, in grade school. Some things in A Book of Five Rings translate directly to photography (and many other things), while others translate in a metaphoric way. The translation I have has some history about Musashi, which is pretty interesting by itself. Best thing is that it's a pretty short book, about the size of On Being a Photographer or Art and Fear.