Deardorff Bi-Post assembly instructions needed [Archive]

Tin Can

18-Sep-2013, 11:44

Yes, that is the beauty of standardized American products, usually common sized material and fasteners.

I won't know diameter until it gets here, maybe Arkay posts are the same size. I could leave my one Arkay post as is, cut the other to match and have 2 set's.

However, I am 62, retired, I own my paid off Artist storefront and have no plans to ever leave this location. Hence any unit mods, and equipment installed is for my lifetime, not the next owner's...

If someone in the future wants a taller Bi-Post he or she can find new pipe.

I am on a low budget, fixed income and live in the last chance hotel.

Happy trail's to you. That's 3 old songs quoted.

First measure the posts' diameter. I'll bet they are American standard industry parts. It might be easier to find your desired length and reserve the extra long stock ones for the future.

Try a call to these Romeoville folks (http://www.chicagotube.com/). Phone 800-972-0217 They might have some scrap of the right size.

(I rebuilt a huge Saltzman enlarger with parts from a farm and industrial supply shop.)

SergeiR

18-Sep-2013, 11:48

Randy, regular pipe cutters are just basically your usual wall-scratching thingy made out of hard material. So with wee patience and rotary tool you can just thin/scratch wall out and break off - using carbide bit. Or make one out of carbide bit for dremmel and few pieces of tube clamp or just tube (slightly larger diameter than what yout trying to cut).

jb7

18-Sep-2013, 12:09

You could try renting something like this, but this one seems quite inexpensive to buy...

http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/cut-off-saws/2-hp-14-inch-heavy-duty-cut-off-saw-91938.html

Jac@stafford.net

18-Sep-2013, 12:24

The pipe is a bit larger than the stuff we cut around here, so you might have to rent one.
If the cut end is messy, just put a pipe cap (non-threaded) over the raw end.

Tin Can

18-Sep-2013, 12:27

Yes, that will work.

Cutting is not really the issue.

Installing the 2 heavy lead weights, swaging the cable fittings and getting the thing standing up will be the issue.

The seller is going to help, but I think he only took them apart and usually reassembly can be more difficult than disassembly...

You could try renting something like this, but this one seems quite inexpensive to buy...

http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/cut-off-saws/2-hp-14-inch-heavy-duty-cut-off-saw-91938.html

Tin Can

18-Sep-2013, 12:28

No worries, it will be cut.

Installing weights safely is the issue.

Randy, regular pipe cutters are just basically your usual wall-scratching thingy made out of hard material. So with wee patience and rotary tool you can just thin/scratch wall out and break off - using carbide bit. Or make one out of carbide bit for dremmel and few pieces of tube clamp or just tube (slightly larger diameter than what yout trying to cut).

Harold_4074

21-Sep-2013, 10:39

Randy,

Having recently taken delivery of a bipost stand refurbished by the Barry and Monica Cochran in Tennessee, I can offer a few bits of insight:

1) I don't know the manufacture date of my stand, and the details may have varied over the years, but my columns are tubing with about a quarter-inch wall. The thing is a beast[I]. If you have the time, my advice would be to use a sheet of paper to scribe a squared line around the pipe, and then make successive short cuts with a Porta-Band until you can connect the cuts and drop the cutoff. Clean up the ends with and angle grinder, and you will be good to go. The caps which carry the cable pulleys do not rotate on the columns, so the end cuts don't have to be all that precise. I wouldn't recommend taking the columns off of the base unless someone has already done it, because:

2) There is a bit of artistry involved in removing and replacing the columns; they have to be exactly parallel if the carriage is going to travel smoothly, and this is accomplished by the use of four flange bolts and four jack screws for each column. The lateral spacing is not quite so critical, but because the flanges are only about 6" in diameter, the "leverage" seen at the top is pretty large.

3) If the stand is partially assembled, be very careful with the it until laying it down and sliding out the weights for inspection. Mine were attached using 1/4"lag-screw hooks in holes drilled into the lead, and about four minutes after standing the whole thing up in the bed of the truck (a three-person job, by the way) there was a resounding crash as one of the weights parted company with its cable. It put a two-inch deep dent in the truck bed. It seems that the screws had stripped out before, and someone tried to pot them in with some kind of adhesive, (According to the Cochrans, every stand they had ever seen was assembled with lag hooks.) We drilled out the holes, put in brass threaded inserts, and replaced the lag hooks with 3/8-16 eye bolts..

The safest way that we could come up with to remove and replace the weights involved a ten-foot length of PVC pipe; with the stand lying down, push the weight up to the top and unhook it, then use the pipe to gently slide it down to the bottom. Each weight is about seventy pounds, and you [I]don't want to let it build up any momentum on the way down. I wouldn't even think about trying to lift it in or out using the cable; one slip and you would probably amputate a digit or two. For replacement, the same procedure it used, but have someone at the top end feed in the cable, keeping enough tension to prevent it from looping and getting kinked when it is pulled tight.

4) The stand, assembled, is slightly more than 36" wide at the base, so you may have to remove the longitudinal base members to get it through a typical doorway. A lot of blocking and a floor jack will make this fairly simple, but be sure to securely restrain the column assembly if you turn it so that the two columns are in the vertical plane. We used big C-clamps, two-by-fours and some 3/8" lag bolts for this. (I did mention that this thing is a beast, right?)

Unless you have a wide, twelve-foot-tall door, you will probably have to stand the thing up by tilting it; if so, remember that the base is three feet wide and if you make the stand 11'6" tall you will have only fraction of an inch clearance under a 12' ceiling on the way up.

Finally: Monica Cochran took quite a few pictures while we were unloading and assembling the stand, and if you ask politely she might share them wth you. Barry and Monica are good folks and possess a wealth of information about the Deardorff equipment. They stay pretty busy, but it wouldn't hurt to ask :)

Good luck, be very careful, if let us all know how it goes.

Harol

Tin Can

21-Sep-2013, 11:18

Harold,

Thank you!

This is all great info, lag bolts into lead! I can do better, I hope. :)

The pipes are already removed. The local seller has agreed to assist. He has 2 stands and some experience.

As a diesel engine mechanic, I have experience installing big heavy things, but I don't have a chain fall in my studio. The seller and I already discussed that. I do have massive wood beams 2 feet above my double drywall ceiling. I hope to avoid installing a skyhook...

This may take us some time to do it right and safely the first time.

One end of my studio has pallet racks and I have been considering adding a pickup truck bed hoist to the top of it to load motorcycles onto the top of the rack. Perhaps I need to do that asap as that would give me a big help right there.

I would assemble it outside with a hoist, but my 2 doors are 36" and placed at 90 degrees, just getting my broken fridge out was barely possible.

I will contact Monica Cochran for images, I bought a nice Linhof and numerous Deardorff parts from them in the last couple years.

Thanks for the great advice!

Randy

Randy,

Having recently taken delivery of a bipost stand refurbished by the Barry and Monica Cochran in Tennessee, I can offer a few bits of insight:

1) I don't know the manufacture date of my stand, and the details may have varied over the years, but my columns are tubing with about a quarter-inch wall. The thing is a beast[I]. If you have the time, my advice would be to use a sheet of paper to scribe a squared line around the pipe, and then make successive short cuts with a Porta-Band until you can connect the cuts and drop the cutoff. Clean up the ends with and angle grinder, and you will be good to go. The caps which carry the cable pulleys do not rotate on the columns, so the end cuts don't have to be all that precise. I wouldn't recommend taking the columns off of the base unless someone has already done it, because:

2) There is a bit of artistry involved in removing and replacing the columns; they have to be exactly parallel if the carriage is going to travel smoothly, and this is accomplished by the use of four flange bolts and four jack screws for each column. The lateral spacing is not quite so critical, but because the flanges are only about 6" in diameter, the "leverage" seen at the top is pretty large.

3) If the stand is partially assembled, be very careful with the it until laying it down and sliding out the weights for inspection. Mine were attached using 1/4"lag-screw hooks in holes drilled into the lead, and about four minutes after standing the whole thing up in the bed of the truck (a three-person job, by the way) there was a resounding crash as one of the weights parted company with its cable. It put a two-inch deep dent in the truck bed. It seems that the screws had stripped out before, and someone tried to pot them in with some kind of adhesive, (According to the Cochrans, every stand they had ever seen was assembled with lag hooks.) We drilled out the holes, put in brass threaded inserts, and replaced the lag hooks with 3/8-16 eye bolts..

The safest way that we could come up with to remove and replace the weights involved a ten-foot length of PVC pipe; with the stand lying down, push the weight up to the top and unhook it, then use the pipe to gently slide it down to the bottom. Each weight is about seventy pounds, and you [I]don't want to let it build up any momentum on the way down. I wouldn't even think about trying to lift it in or out using the cable; one slip and you would probably amputate a digit or two. For replacement, the same procedure it used, but have someone at the top end feed in the cable, keeping enough tension to prevent it from looping and getting kinked when it is pulled tight.

4) The stand, assembled, is slightly more than 36" wide at the base, so you may have to remove the longitudinal base members to get it through a typical doorway. A lot of blocking and a floor jack will make this fairly simple, but be sure to securely restrain the column assembly if you turn it so that the two columns are in the vertical plane. We used big C-clamps, two-by-fours and some 3/8" lag bolts for this. (I did mention that this thing is a beast, right?)

Unless you have a wide, twelve-foot-tall door, you will probably have to stand the thing up by tilting it; if so, remember that the base is three feet wide and if you make the stand 11'6" tall you will have only fraction of an inch clearance under a 12' ceiling on the way up.

Finally: Monica Cochran took quite a few pictures while we were unloading and assembling the stand, and if you ask politely she might share them wth you. Barry and Monica are good folks and possess a wealth of information about the Deardorff equipment. They stay pretty busy, but it wouldn't hurt to ask :)

Good luck, be very careful, if let us all know how it goes.

Harol

Harold_4074

21-Sep-2013, 14:49

Randy,

If the columns are off the base, then you are into territory that I didn't have to explore.

However:

The carriage consists of two assemblies that are connected only by a couple of shafts and the baseboard, so I presume that you can install each assembly onto its column, and then put the shafts in after the columns are more or less aligned. If so, the rest would be fairly easy: raise the base far enough that the side legs can be installed, and block it there (we used automotive jack stands). Bolt the legs on, lower the base so that it is resting on the front ends of the legs, and then raise the columns until they slope down to the base (sawhorses are good for this...).

The weights go in from the bottom, are pushed up to where the cables can be connected, and then allowed to slide back down. If you have cut down the columns, you will have to shorten the cables, which is straightforward at this point because there is almost no load on them.You want the cables long enough that the carriage can go all the way down, since the column tops are closed; then the carriage is up, the weights can hang out below the columns by a few inches without hitting the floor.

With the carriage at the top, the weights are at the bottom so the center of mass is as low as you can get; one person blocks the base from rolling, and the other two lift the columns to set the stand upright.

You can then finish assembling the carriage, and get the columns precisely aligned, two tasks that I have zero experience with....but if you are on good terms with Barry and Monica, you have access to about the best resource you could ask for!

Harold

Tin Can

21-Sep-2013, 14:59

Hi Harold,

I wrote to Monica and Barry and they just replied. They need a little time to find the pictures and have already been helpful!

I appreciate your continued advice, also they described your unit's refurbishment and it sounds wonderful.

I'm pretty excited I have wanted this for a while.

4 days and counting, I actually have not seen the whole stand yet, just the tubes.

Randy Moe

Randy,

If the columns are off the base, then you are into territory that I didn't have to explore.

However:

The carriage consists of two assemblies that are connected only by a couple of shafts and the baseboard, so I presume that you can install each assembly onto its column, and then put the shafts in after the columns are more or less aligned. If so, the rest would be fairly easy: raise the base far enough that the side legs can be installed, and block it there (we used automotive jack stands). Bolt the legs on, lower the base so that it is resting on the front ends of the legs, and then raise the columns until they slope down to the base (sawhorses are good for this...).

The weights go in from the bottom, are pushed up to where the cables can be connected, and then allowed to slide back down. If you have cut down the columns, you will have to shorten the cables, which is straightforward at this point because there is almost no load on them.You want the cables long enough that the carriage can go all the way down, since the column tops are closed; then the carriage is up, the weights can hang out below the columns by a few inches without hitting the floor.

With the carriage at the top, the weights are at the bottom so the center of mass is as low as you can get; one person blocks the base from rolling, and the other two lift the columns to set the stand upright.

You can then finish assembling the carriage, and get the columns precisely aligned, two tasks that I have zero experience with....but if you are on good terms with Barry and Monica, you have access to about the best resource you could ask for!

Harold

Michael Cienfuegos

23-Sep-2013, 08:08

We would all like to see some photos of the final results. This sounds like a really cool project. Good luck. :)

m

Tin Can

23-Sep-2013, 08:55

I'm counting my fingers to make sure I still have them all when done. An old factory saying. At the factory I worked at for 30 years, there were many missing fingers,..

I was on the Rescue and Fire team. I've seen and done a few things.

I guess I better document the whole procedure as nobody else has publicly done so, that I can find.

We would all like to see some photos of the final results. This sounds like a really cool project. Good luck. :)

m

Jac@stafford.net

23-Sep-2013, 10:20

I'm counting my fingers to make sure I still have them all when done. An old factory saying. At the factory I worked at for 30 years, there were many missing fingers,..

You might want to dig out your old armored gloves, or upgrade. There have been some good improvements over the years. HexArmor is good.

My hands were damaged and my left thumb was amputated in an industrial accident, but the thumb was amazingly re-attached. The Mayo hand surgery crew is a profitable division here in farm and industrial country. :(

Tin Can

23-Sep-2013, 10:44

We had a few guys somehow defeat mechanical wrist restraints, double actuation switches and light curtains to, I think, some purposely chop off fingers. The screaming, the spurting blood, the guys trying to run away, were a crazy scene while waiting forever for Paramedics. Punch press are very dangerous, boring and take a certain type of worker to do it for decades. I still remember the last guy, who lost all flesh on 4 fingers, bones flattened and his foreman holding him down for 20 minutes. The foreman was a hero.

I'll be very careful.

You might want to dig out your old armored gloves, or upgrade. There have been some good improvements over the years. HexArmor is good.

My hands were damaged and my left thumb was amputated in an industrial accident, but the thumb was amazingly re-attached. The Mayo hand surgery crew is a profitable division here in farm and industrial country. :(

Michael Cienfuegos

23-Sep-2013, 21:44

Tin Can

26-Sep-2013, 09:15

OK, took delivery last night. The seller and I plan to document assembly, as no one else has anywhere. It is broken down to basic pieces, each moveable by a single person.

I think I want to start a new thread where we post 4 pictures at a time, since that's the limit here.

We don't want to put up linked pictures, or a private website, as we want to make it a lasting resource.

Any suggestions on how and where, including here, to make the resource lasting are welcome.

Harold_4074

26-Sep-2013, 11:05

Randy,

It would seem that an "article" rather than a thread would be appropriate; I don't know the mechanics of getting one onto the LF home page, but I've done a lot of technical writing over the years and I'll volunteer to help with writing and/or editing.

Harold

Jason Greenberg Motamedi

26-Sep-2013, 11:05

What about hosting it on the LF home page? Seem like that would be the natural place for a permanent resource.

I am looking forward to your instructions. I have had the pieces of a bi-post stand in storage for 5 years, and someday plan on assembling it, if I ever have the space.

Tin Can

26-Sep-2013, 11:18

Harold,

That sounds good, I can get wordy and off topic, I will shoot images and write some description as it goes.

This may take a while as I need to shorten the tubes and need to get square cuts of equal length.

Once we get an 'article' we can worry about placement at that time. I just want to make it as permanent as possible, as I am constantly frustrated with the lack of documentation of now obscure equipment. I'll not make a new thread at this time, and use this one to simply gather information and assistance.

Thanks, I will PM you as work progresses!

If anyone else has anything to add, please do so.

Randy,

It would seem that an "article" rather than a thread would be appropriate; I don't know the mechanics of getting one onto the LF home page, but I've done a lot of technical writing over the years and I'll volunteer to help with writing and/or editing.

Harold

Tin Can

29-Sep-2013, 12:49

May as well report what I now know and don't know.

It is in my studio broke down into pieces one or two people can handle. Right now the pipes are 13 feet, I am going to try cutting them with a wood chopsaw with a new Norton 10" abrasive wheel. I figure I need to carefully setup and properly support the entire pipe so it does not move or bind during the cutting. The pipe is 3.5" x 1/16".

Which gets us to the next point, in the pictures there are 2 curved aluminum shoes with felt facing. The curve fits the pipes, but where do they go, as you can see inside the platform casting hole there is no evidence of the shoe, nor room. There is a locking screw protruding from the middle with a swivel foot.

The swageless 1/8" cable fitting and cable will also need to be shortened to about 10" shorter than the cut down pipe, at least that is the spec derived from the existing pipe and cable.

There is also a elevation bicycle chain drive that will also need to be shortened, no problem. Since the chain is non load bearing I will be able to replace the chain after erection.

The 2 lead weights with lag bolt screw hooks seem to be tightly and securely mated. The weights are 44 lbs each. Since the cables that hold the weights pass over one pulley, we have a doubling in force, so I believe this rig can balance a camera table weight at least 176 lbs, which is more than enough for any camera I plan to mount.

So just staring at the parts, it seems, I should first mount the pipes to the bottom cross brace, leaving the legs off. Slip the table assembly over the top while everything is on the floor, connect the weights to the cables from the bottom, push the weights up a couple feet and connect the top cable end to the table assembly. Lock the table at the top with the built in locks. Then get 3 guys to tip it up, slowly. The table assembly is not that heavy and the 88 lbs of lead weights will be at the bottom. As we stand it up we carefully let the cable tension increase to full load.

Once it is standing up it will be standing on a narrow base cross brace, which has curved bottom edges, and I believe can be used to tilt the whole thing sideways enough to fasten one leg. Then we can use a car floor jack to lift the other side up high enough to attach the other leg.

This is what I see now, any advice would be great.

And where do those 2 rubbing/locking shoes go?

102709102710102711102712

Tin Can

29-Sep-2013, 12:52

More pics.

102713102714102715102716

Jac@stafford.net

29-Sep-2013, 13:02

Those gizmos with the grooved wheels are large circlips. They are to be compressed with a tool that has expressions that fit into the holes at each end. It squeezes the circlip to fit down a tube, then you place it into A SLOTTED (or machined groove) in the tube (or very close then tap it into the slot (or relief).

Tin Can

29-Sep-2013, 13:13

This is the problem. These are not circlips.

They have felt on the inside curve with traces of black paint from the tubes, they are made of cast aluminum.

I see nowhere to use them. I will check with the seller tomorrow.

102717

Those gizmos with the grooved wheels are large circlips. They are to be compressed with a tool that has expressions that fit into the holes at each end. It squeezes the circlip to fit down a tube, then you place it into A SLOTTED (or machined groove) in the tube (or very close then tap it into the slot (or relief).

Jac@stafford.net

29-Sep-2013, 13:47

This is the problem. These are not circlips]

I was referring to the third picture.

Tin Can

29-Sep-2013, 13:51

Those are cast aluminum pipe caps, they simply slip onto the top and have side set screws. The cable goes through the pulley and the chain bolts to one of the cap holes, the other hole was unused.

Yes, I can see from the pic, they do look like circlips.

Thanks for the advice!

I was referring to the third picture.

Jim C.

29-Sep-2013, 22:15

Randy, those curved plates you posted a picture of in post # 29 look like pads that push against the post to lock the height,
is there a key way in the camera platform post holes that they go in ?

Tin Can

29-Sep-2013, 22:26

Yes they do look just like what you describe, but I see nowhere they fit. I guess I have to wait for someone who knows. If you look at the post hole image, there is no room for them. I would think the screw lock 1/2 way down would push them against the pole, but there is no room and definitely no way to install them that I see.

Thanks for the reply.

Randy, those curved plates you posted a picture of in post # 29 look like pads that push against the post to lock the height,
is there a key way in the camera platform post holes that they go in ?

Jim C.

30-Sep-2013, 07:21

I looked over your pictures and I don't see the camera platform that the camera would sit on,
just the bottom cast iron base which has the outline of the post flanges.

It may not have a keyway but a socket that it fits in.

Pctures of this beast are rare to find on the net, but if you act fast there was an auction that ended on the Bay
for the same stand with nice big pictures to use as reference - 280696464755
sixth thumbnail from the left has a picture of what looks like a thumb screw.

Tin Can

30-Sep-2013, 07:35

Jim, thanks for the eBay link, I was aware of that sale and pictures. The seller contacted me and maintains the 'rubbing blocks' fit in a cavity inside the table sliding housing, but I still cannot fathom how.

Here is an overall shot.

102755

I looked over your pictures and I don't see the camera platform that the camera would sit on,
just the bottom cast iron base which has the outline of the post flanges.

It may not have a keyway but a socket that it fits in.

Pctures of this beast are rare to find on the net, but if you act fast there was an auction that ended on the Bay
for the same stand with nice big pictures to use as reference - 280696464755
sixth thumbnail from the left has a picture of what looks like a thumb screw.

Jim C.

30-Sep-2013, 10:28

There's no inset inside where the nipple is on the table slide casting ?

I did a quick cutway drawing showing if there is something inside if should be behind where that nipple is,
I've worked on my Majestic tripod and my Arkay camera stand and there is a inset or a cavity
for the rubbing block, possibly a cavity for the Deardorff since those rubbing blocks look to have
counter sunk tapped holes. On second thought those holes are possibly to mount some sort of
felt pad, metal against metal would leave some awful scratches on the columns.

Odd that the attachment defaults to URL and requires Flash ?
Anyway, I think I fixed it.

102765

Tin Can

30-Sep-2013, 10:53

I could not open your attachment, this website said it was invalid.

I see no inset anywhere inside the slider, I show that in a prior pic.

I have ordered 1/8" heavy wool felt with adhesive backing from McMaster Carr to reline the rubbing blocks, yet the more I stare at the darn thing the less I know about installing the rubbing blocks.

There seems to be no room, inside the slider.

The rubbing block holes are not tapped and have no witness marks. There is some glue inside one, most likely for the felt.

The slider screw lock doesn't seem to have any way to hold a rubbing block during assembly or even during use.

102764

There's no inset inside where the nipple is on the table slide casting ?

I did a quick cutway drawing showing if there is something inside if should be behind where that nipple is,
I've worked on my Majestic tripod and my Arkay camera stand and there is a inset or a cavity
for the rubbing block, possibly a cavity for the Deardorff since those rubbing blocks look to have
counter sunk tapped holes. On second thought those holes are possibly to mount some sort of
felt pad, metal against metal would leave some awful scratches on the columns.

102762

Jim C.

30-Sep-2013, 11:26

I looked at the pics again the table slide column tubes look like they're bored larger inside,
my guess is if you took one of the blocks and held it up against the inside lip at the end with the roller bearing
the column would fit. As to how the rubbing block stays in place, I don't know, the part isn't counter sunk to accept the
end of the thumb screw, and those holes seem to suggest there is something missing.

Tin Can

30-Sep-2013, 15:17

Well, the seller says he will show me when I am ready, meaning when I have cut the posts and cables.

I agree some sort of clip is missing, something to hold the rubbing block to the screw.

I was hoping to cut and get it done, but now I will have to wait.

Thanks for the advice.

I looked at the pics again the table slide column tubes look like they're bored larger inside,
my guess is if you took one of the blocks and held it up against the inside lip at the end with the roller bearing
the column would fit. As to how the rubbing block stays in place, I don't know, the part isn't counter sunk to accept the
end of the thumb screw, and those holes seem to suggest there is something missing.

Harold_4074

30-Sep-2013, 21:58

Randy,

I think that Jim C.'s illustration is about the only plausible explanation, except that the curved plates look to be something like an eighth of an inch thick, and on my stand the clearance between the base of the threaded hole in the outside of each table slider and the column surface is nowehere near that large. Otherwise, I would expect a cast-in pocket for each friction piece, which would not have to be attached to the thumbscrew because it could not escape its pocket once the column tube has been inserted. (That thumbscrew, if you didn't already know, is a standard piece of jig-and-fixture hardware.)

The good news may be that the holes in the column sliders that I have look like they have not had screws in them for decades, if ever, and the stand works just fine.

There is a clutch to disengage the raising and lowering crank, presumably so that the table can be raised and lowered without the use of the crank. But with the clutch disengaged, I can barely move the table assembly, and with the clutch engaged the mechanical advantage of the helical pinion makes it quite secure.

Harold

Tin Can

30-Sep-2013, 22:12

Yes, the clamps may not be necessary and I was wondering who had the patience to move the platform 20 feet up, such as with the tallest original pipes. The hand crank moves the chain very slowly.

Disengaging the clutch for rapid movement makes sense.

Good point Harold.

I did need 3 new knobs for the jack stands and found nice ones from McMaster Carr at a very good price.

Randy,

I think that Jim C.'s illustration is about the only plausible explanation, except that the curved plates look to be something like an eighth of an inch thick, and on my stand the clearance between the base of the threaded hole in the outside of each table slider and the column surface is nowehere near that large. Otherwise, I would expect a cast-in pocket for each friction piece, which would not have to be attached to the thumbscrew because it could not escape its pocket once the column tube has been inserted. (That thumbscrew, if you didn't already know, is a standard piece of jig-and-fixture hardware.)

The good news may be that the holes in the column sliders that I have look like they have not had screws in them for decades, if ever, and the stand works just fine.

There is a clutch to disengage the raising and lowering crank, presumably so that the table can be raised and lowered without the use of the crank. But with the clutch disengaged, I can barely move the table assembly, and with the clutch engaged the mechanical advantage of the helical pinion makes it quite secure.

Harold

Harold_4074

1-Oct-2013, 13:08

Randy,

Having thought about it a bit more, it would make sense that the curved plates would be thicker than the clearance between the columns and sliders; otherwise they would just fall out the bottom. So I will be quite surprised if there is not a cast-in pocket surrounding each tapped clamp screw hole...

Regarding the cutting of the columns: it sounds like a fairly hairy job to cut a 3-1/2" tube in a 10" chop saw, but there is an easy way.

Take a largish sheet of accurately-cut paper (say, 8-1/2 x 13 printer paper) and wrap it snugly around the column, carefully aligning the overlapping edges. Then draw a line along the edge of the paper; if the paper is snug and the column is a true cylinder, the line will be really close to square---certainly closer than you need. Using a hacksaw, chop saw, or whatever, make a series of short cuts along the line, leaving some material between the ends of the cuts until you have gone all the way around. It is pretty easy to keep each 1" cut straight, and at the end you just separate the short bridges and trim the end with a grinder or file. I've done 4" schedule 40 pipe this way, and ended up with something about as accurate as I could measure with a framing square. As the Deardorff stand is designed, the tops of the columns don't have to be all that accurate, and even the lengths aren't terribly critical (as long as the roller chains are "in phase", the mechanism should work properly).

Harold

Jim C.

1-Oct-2013, 14:27

Harold, see post # 26 last photo, it's a shot looking down the tube that the column goes into, no cast in pocket,
but looks to me that the inside is bored larger than the ends to accommodate the curved plates.
The only thing is the rubbing blocks ( curved plates ) seem to missing something to hold them in place.

Tin Can

1-Oct-2013, 14:32

Like a spring steel clip.

Harold, see post # 26 last photo, it's a shot looking down the tube that the column goes into, no cast in pocket,
but looks to me that the inside is bored larger than the ends to accommodate the curved plates.
The only thing is the rubbing blocks ( curved plates ) seem to missing something to hold them in place.

Harold_4074

1-Oct-2013, 15:36

Yep. I hadn't looked that closely at the bore, and it does look like there is nothing to locate the curved plate. The clamp screw is clearly visible in the photo, the curved plate seems to have a mark that would correspond to the bearing point of the screw; do the columns show evidence of the screw tip having been forced against them at any time? If the column wall is as thin as described, that clamp screw would very easily dent it.

Fascinating....

Jim C.

1-Oct-2013, 16:02

Like a spring steel clip.

Yes, could be one of those too.
Randy have you sized one of those rubbing blocks in the tube against that rim ?

Tin Can

1-Oct-2013, 16:16

There are no circular small dents from the lock screws on the tubes. There are 'cribbing' marks that may be from the rubbing blocks or from simply moving the entire sliding assembly up and off. Ths tube marks align on both tubes to slightly more or less than 90 degrees from the chain mount socket on the tube floor flanges. The chain installs to the rear of the tubes from online images I have seen. The tube sides I do not show in the photographs have nearly no marks, just paint.

I crudely measured the tube ID near the lock screw and there may be enough clearance for the rubbing blocks.

This tube image is of the second sliding bore and there is electrical tape inside, some masking tape was used to keep the beveled tube rollers in position, the long piece of electrical near the lock screw hole must have held a rubbing block.

But I doubt a rubbing block would retain with tape after the first movement.

Locking at the sliding adapters inside by eye and photograph show no marking from the rubbing block, nor can I feel anything with my finger tips. The lock screw threaded hole is neat, without burrs or marks.

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Jim C.

1-Oct-2013, 16:44

That last picture clearly shows that the column tubes are bored or was cast larger on the inside,
your previous pics were a little washed out to see if there was another lip on the other end.
The puzzle is how the rubbing blocks are to be held in place, just by the felt ? Or as I'm thinking there
is a missing piece like a spring clip or something else that I can't name but I can see in my minds eye.
A stamped steel bracket held on the thumb screw with an snap ring.

As Harold said, fascinating.....

Tin Can

1-Oct-2013, 17:31

There is no room to hold a clip on the set screw, it's diameter is exactly the threaded hole size and cannot protrude much into the cavity as there is no room for that.

Confusing and fascinating.

And a very important question to solve before putting the whole thing together.

That last picture clearly shows that the column tubes are bored or was cast larger on the inside,
your previous pics were a little washed out to see if there was another lip on the other end.
The puzzle is how the rubbing blocks are to be held in place, just by the felt ? Or as I'm thinking there
is a missing piece like a spring clip or something else that I can't name but I can see in my minds eye.
A stamped steel bracket held on the thumb screw with an snap ring.

As Harold said, fascinating.....

Harold_4074

1-Oct-2013, 17:38

One additional possibility: do the rubbing blocks closely match the OD of the column tubes? Or possibly the OD of the lead counterweights, instead? Holes in the counterweights matching the spacing of the holes in the rub blocks might indicate that they were spacers to keep the counterweights from banging around so much---the ones on my stand ring like carillon bells if I so much as bump things. The felt might have been there as a damping layer, and not a sliding surface.

Come to think if it, if I ever have the weights out of mine I think that I will fabricate some spacers like that (but out of soft plastic) just to cut down on the noise!

Tin Can

1-Oct-2013, 17:47

O'boy, I am going to answer first and then check!

Great thinking, and I have been there before. I hate the clanging I get with my Arkay. I even wrapped my weight in duct tape to stop it on the Arkay, but I wrapped a bit too much!

The weight with tape would slide in and install, but with the Arkay Monostand, the very necessary tube clamp bends the tube enough that I had the lead weight with tape jammed in the middle of my Arkay tube. I got it out, barely. I had pushed the weight in from the top and it fell to the middle when I stood it up and jammed. I forgot that frustrating evening.

I will now examine this new idea.

i'll be back after dinner.

One additional possibility: do the rubbing blocks closely match the OD of the column tubes? Or possibly the OD of the lead counterweights, instead? Holes in the counterweights matching the spacing of the holes in the rub blocks might indicate that they were spacers to keep the counterweights from banging around so much---the ones on my stand ring like carillon bells if I so much as bump things. The felt might have been there as a damping layer, and not a sliding surface.

Come to think if it, if I ever have the weights out of mine I think that I will fabricate some spacers like that (but out of soft plastic) just to cut down on the noise!

Jac@stafford.net

1-Oct-2013, 17:51

Perhaps the mystery parts are not for the stand, but from some incidental mistakenly thrown in.

Tin Can

1-Oct-2013, 18:11

Nope, as I asked the seller, what they were, as he gave them to me. They came out of a box with 2 set's of parts for the 2 Bi-Posts he had. The box had no extra parts and he had marked everything, except these parts. He had tagged the tubes for position and stand, he also marked the base, legs, chains, cables, bolts.

He just gave me the 2 rubbing blocks and said, 'they go in the sliding blocks'.

I am going to try and get him here for assembly after I have prepped everything.

I am hoping to solve this issue here, perhaps he forgot. He said he has only taken apart the 2 stands and never assembled one.

I hope he knows, as it could be they just fell out and he does not know.

Perhaps the mystery parts are not for the stand, but from some incidental mistakenly thrown in.

Tin Can

1-Oct-2013, 18:13

I don't see how they could be used to stop the clanging, and the rubbing blocks have felt and wear marks on the inside of the curvature. The lead weights have no holes or witness marks, aside from sliding marks from the tube.

One additional possibility: do the rubbing blocks closely match the OD of the column tubes? Or possibly the OD of the lead counterweights, instead? Holes in the counterweights matching the spacing of the holes in the rub blocks might indicate that they were spacers to keep the counterweights from banging around so much---the ones on my stand ring like carillon bells if I so much as bump things. The felt might have been there as a damping layer, and not a sliding surface.

Come to think if it, if I ever have the weights out of mine I think that I will fabricate some spacers like that (but out of soft plastic) just to cut down on the noise!

Jim C.

1-Oct-2013, 21:02

He just gave me the 2 rubbing blocks and said, 'they go in the sliding blocks'.

Okaaaay, so what would be the " sliding blocks" the weights ?

joe a kras

1-Oct-2013, 21:18

Randy,

I recently completed a complete teardown and rebuild of the exact same stand. The friction block do mount inside of the collars that slide up and down the pipe. There are eccentric brass levers on the side of the collars that when turned clamp the pipe to the collar. They are just an additional method of locking the collars tight. i hope that helps. Cutting the pipe was the easy part. I just used a grinder and a cut off wheel, use wide tape to draw a line around the tube and go for it. The tops of the tubes don't need to be absolutely square as the cast top piece covers this completely. The biggest problem I had were the swedge anchors on the ends of the cables and getting the cables the correct length. There isn't a lot of adjustment for the getting the cable to the correct length. The same goes for the chain. If you need any pictures to help assembly let me know.

Joe

Harold_4074

1-Oct-2013, 22:06

The lead weights have no holes or witness marks, aside from sliding marks from the tube.

Well, that pretty much kills one possibility.....

Looking very closely at the fourth picture in post #47, it seems that there are two features in the bore at the very bottom (as the part is sitting), roughly one and eleven o'clock. This would appear to be about right for the holes in the rubbing blocks, although the focus isn't all that great in the picture. I wonder if these are headless screws or pins which capture the rubbing blocks?

Tin Can

1-Oct-2013, 23:14

Not sure at this point, I 'thought' he meant sliding housing, I see no way the lead weights use this things.

Let me get the tubes shortened and then I will contact the seller, he's a busy young man with a family.

I am hoping someone who actually knows will spot this thread and provide some advice.

I think we have exhausted the investigation.

We need fresh info.

Okaaaay, so what would be the " sliding blocks" the weights ?

Tin Can

1-Oct-2013, 23:25

I rolled that slider up, so here are 4 shots of what was the bottom of pic 4, post #47.

Nothing.

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The lead weights have no holes or witness marks, aside from sliding marks from the tube.

Well, that pretty much kills one possibility.....

Looking very closely at the fourth picture in post #47, it seems that there are two features in the bore at the very bottom (as the part is sitting), roughly one and eleven o'clock. This would appear to be about right for the holes in the rubbing blocks, although the focus isn't all that great in the picture. I wonder if these are headless screws or pins which capture the rubbing blocks?

Jim C.

2-Oct-2013, 06:14

Tin Can

2-Oct-2013, 08:33

Hi Joe,

I would appreciate any pictures you can supply here or in a PM.

I do know, from online pictures, there are variations of this stand.

My cables use swageless connectors and I plan to use 2 new ones to shorten the cables, bicycle chain is something I do know.

Thanks in advance for any pictures and advice you can offer.

Randy,

I recently completed a complete teardown and rebuild of the exact same stand. The friction block do mount inside of the collars that slide up and down the pipe. There are eccentric brass levers on the side of the collars that when turned clamp the pipe to the collar. They are just an additional method of locking the collars tight. i hope that helps. Cutting the pipe was the easy part. I just used a grinder and a cut off wheel, use wide tape to draw a line around the tube and go for it. The tops of the tubes don't need to be absolutely square as the cast top piece covers this completely. The biggest problem I had were the swedge anchors on the ends of the cables and getting the cables the correct length. There isn't a lot of adjustment for the getting the cable to the correct length. The same goes for the chain. If you need any pictures to help assembly let me know.

Joe

joe a kras

2-Oct-2013, 10:04

Randy,

I checked the photos I have and none of them specifically show these friction plates. They go inside the collars that you show the picture of earlier. The collar sections with the guide wheels about halfway down inside. They are friction between the collars and the tubes and have nothing to do with the weights, as the weights are inside the tube and the friction plates are on the exterior of the pipe. There is no mechanical connection for these. They float inside a cast pocket and the nub on the back side is what the eccentric cam lobe presses against the force this against the pipe. On the colar (DEARDORFF ABA-1 stamped on the side) there is a cast brass lever with a ball dent that locks this friction plate against the pipe column. The lever has a brass shaft that has a cam lob on it the presses against this floating friction plate. Truthfully, I never use this function as the weights counter the camera weight and the worm drive for raising and lowering locks down and the platform doesn't move.
One other point, you are probably correct on the different types of materials and functions of the stands, Deardorff used the pieces available to fabricate and I'm certain most of these have slight variations. I know that the wheels and lifters on mine are quit a bit different than the pictures I've seen of others.
The last point is that when you reassemble the tubing to the stand, provided you actually removed them, is to insure that they are parallel to each other all the way up and down.

Joe

Tin Can

2-Oct-2013, 10:19

Thanks Joe.

Mine must be different in a couple ways.

I will align the tubes parallel when remounting them to the base, I am very familiar with machine alignment, as a factory mechanic for 30 years. I wish i still had those resources. :(

Randy,

I checked the photos I have and none of them specifically show these friction plates. They go inside the collars that you show the picture of earlier. The collar sections with the guide wheels about halfway down inside. They are friction between the collars and the tubes and have nothing to do with the weights, as the weights are inside the tube and the friction plates are on the exterior of the pipe. There is no mechanical connection for these. They float inside a cast pocket and the nub on the back side is what the eccentric cam lobe presses against the force this against the pipe. On the colar (DEARDORFF ABA-1 stamped on the side) there is a cast brass lever with a ball dent that locks this friction plate against the pipe column. The lever has a brass shaft that has a cam lob on it the presses against this floating friction plate. Truthfully, I never use this function as the weights counter the camera weight and the worm drive for raising and lowering locks down and the platform doesn't move.
One other point, you are probably correct on the different types of materials and functions of the stands, Deardorff used the pieces available to fabricate and I'm certain most of these have slight variations. I know that the wheels and lifters on mine are quit a bit different than the pictures I've seen of others.
The last point is that when you reassemble the tubing to the stand, provided you actually removed them, is to insure that they are parallel to each other all the way up and down.

Joe

Tin Can

2-Oct-2013, 10:24

OK, still lost in the woods, and it is time for plan B.

Any good ideas on how to redesign this part?

I am thinking plastic sheet, backed with thin sheet steel in a much larger piece than can be captive within the slider tubes, yet also used as a friction lock using my existing lock screws.

McMaster Carr will be getting a second order this week!

Tin Can

2-Oct-2013, 12:49

Well here is a happy surprise. McMaster just delivered some knobs, that match my one still functional Bi-Post leveling screw knob. Many Bi-Post images show the silver painted metal knobs with 3/8" threads. My 2 knobs of that type have stripped out threads. My stand came with one still functional 1/2" bore knob with set screw mounting.

Now I have 3 brand new knobs to match the rather old one good knob. Sure, I could Heli-Coil the the stripped out steel threads, but I like the larger 3" knobs better, which will be easier to use.

The new knobs were also very cheap, like $4 and Made in USA!

I wish McMaster also had a 4th matching knob with 1/2" bore and set screw. I will have to find the manufacturer. ;)

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joe a kras

2-Oct-2013, 17:44

Randy,

It does seem that the "DEARDORFF ABA-1" case collars are different on yours. Hopefully you can see the difference in the photo.

Joe
102906

Tin Can

2-Oct-2013, 18:07

Hard to see the levers in the picture. I did find out today there were at least 2 models, described as early and late. Yours and mine have the lattice base plate and newer ones had a solid, without holes, base plate.

The rubbing blocks are still a mystery and I may just leave them out, as many have told me, when a S11 is on the stand, complete with cables, weights and bicycle chain the platform stays where placed, yet is easy to move by hand!

I hope I don't have to take it apart and reassemble it more than once. My crew gets grumpy. I only pay them with canned beer...and camera advice.:)

Randy,

It does seem that the "DEARDORFF ABA-1" case collars are different on yours. Hopefully you can see the difference in the photo.

Joe
102906

Tin Can

4-Oct-2013, 13:34

Today I am cutting the tubes/pipes. Used a toy Milwaukee M12 cordless sawzall, 2 charged batteries and 2 new blades. One is done. Nice square cut. # 2 coming right up.

Jack stands were ideal to cradle the pipe, with their built in curved saddles.

I also will be making new cables, using 1/8" stainless 19/1 cable and new stainless swageless fittings. Amazon sells this stuff, actually cheaper than elsewhere. 25' Loos USA cable $12 delivered Prime.

Today's question is how long to make the cables? The existing cables are 8" shorter than the 13' tubes, without other guidance, I will copy that dimension.

102992

Jim C.

4-Oct-2013, 16:34

How much did you cut off the tubes ?
Off the top of my head if you cut off 2ft then 2ft off the cable length and minus another 8" ?

That's a decent price for the cable, but personally I'd go with McMaster, I'm close enough
that if I order before 6:30 I'll have it the next day. Bugs me that with Amazon and a lot of other
big online retailers you never know if you're ordering from Amazon or Cables R' Us if you don't pay attention.

Tin Can

4-Oct-2013, 17:05

The tubes were nearly 13', I cut them to 7' figuring with the base height and top cap that is just under 7'-9" total. That may fit in some future owner's home, but I do not plan on selling and would prefer to never move again.

Also, the way the stand is designed the platform rises to nearly full tube height. The S11 normal lens center is about 18" giving a usable height of 8'-6" which is a tall as the tallest person alive.

I think you have the cable strategy incorrect, I will shorten the cables 6' total and that will make them still 8" shorter than the tubes.

McMaster is local to me also, I have often done will call. The cable I got in 2 days from Amazon is USA made by Loos, a major player. I will most likely buy my swageless fittings from Grainger as they have them in stock less than a mile away.

Now I am looking for heavy duty felt for the table top. I have a 1' sq piece with adhesive backing from McMaster that is real nice, firm wool, but white. I bought that to reline the rubbing blocks. White is a poor choice for me, anything else would be better. This, http://www.mcmaster.com/#felt/=osndqi

I may try this, http://www.mcmaster.com/#felt/=osne7e

Or, http://www.mcmaster.com/#felt/=osnfe2

McMaster is a great supplier and treat even the smallest sale as if you were King of the World. I have had courier deliveries from them for a $30 purchase and real humans talk on telephones. They are a joy to buy from.

How much did you cut off the tubes ?
Off the top of my head if you cut off 2ft then 2ft off the cable length and minus another 8" ?

That's a decent price for the cable, but personally I'd go with McMaster, I'm close enough
that if I order before 6:30 I'll have it the next day. Bugs me that with Amazon and a lot of other
big online retailers you never know if you're ordering from Amazon or Cables R' Us if you don't pay attention.

Jim C.

4-Oct-2013, 18:04

Actually it's 6.33 ft ( 76" )

How heavy are those remnant tubes ?
Inquiring pack rat wants to know ;)

Tin Can

4-Oct-2013, 18:31

Jim, what are you refering to with that dimension?

If that is the cable, what are your tube heights from base flange bottom to pipe top, not cap top.

I need the difference in lengths.

My cutoffs are 69" and weigh maybe 20 lbs each, I can easily lift and move them.

Actually it's 6.33 ft ( 76" )

How heavy are those remnant tubes ?
Inquiring pack rat wants to know ;)

Jim C.

4-Oct-2013, 21:01

Randy never mind about the measurements, getting too caught up in a project that's not mine.
:)

I don't have a bi-post stand nor will I ever think I'll get one unless my
studio situation changes ( meaning a larger space ).

Tin Can

4-Oct-2013, 21:17

I truly understand. I'm jumping a round a lot.

Right now I'm plumbing my sinks, another bigger than life project.

I am used to working on many projects at once, they liked that at my old job.

Nothing ever get's done one project at a time.

:)

Randy never mind about the measurements, getting too caught up in a project that's not mine.
:)

I don't have a bi-post stand nor will I ever think I'll get one unless my
studio situation changes ( meaning a larger space ).

Tin Can

20-Oct-2013, 10:28

Well, I must be the expert now as I put the thing together 99% by myself. I did it like I described. once cut, the tubes can be handled by one person. I assembled to the whole thing on the floor by myself, with the base flat and then bolted the tubes upright, then it was easy to lay it down at an angle on 2 jack stands. I checked and measured and found all kinds of variation in tube width and table sliders. but I wisely did nothing, did not adjust those 4 setscrews for 'level'. I was able to slide the table onto the legs off a 5 gal bucket and push them on till they were 3 inches fully in. Then I put the lead weights in the bottom and fished the cables up the tubes and connected them. No problem. A stronger man could have stood the thing up, but I had 2 helpers do it. Then it stands again on the base without legs. Tilt it slightly sideways on the base beveled bottom and connect one leg. Then it's stable and simply connect the other leg. I did make sure nothing could move with straps, but they were unnecessary. I still need to do the chains, but they are not necessary, too busy using it. The little rubbing blocks were left out and the 2 lock screws work great.

If anyone needs more info, please contact me.

Thanks to all for the great advice and help. I make it sound easy, but I did think about this a lot before doing anything.

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Tin Can

20-Oct-2013, 10:29

103236

Harold_4074

20-Oct-2013, 20:20

Congratulations! Although I notice that you are holding your hands so that we can't quite tell if you still have all your fingers :)

(And I'm not sure if your model is quite worthy of an SC11---she looks a bit, well, stiff...)

Tin Can

20-Oct-2013, 20:39

Thanks Harold!

I was taught at the factory, to always count your fingers and go home with them all. I was a lucky one!

Plastica is so jealous of the monster, she hasn't said a word to me in a week.

She is a little stiff, but can stand very still, a great feature for a model!

Tomorrow is my big day, I also just finished my darkroom and I have a shoot at noon with a live lady, pro photographer, who wants to use LF cameras and develop some film for the darkroom inauguration.

I will be posting images of the darkroom, shortly in 'Let's See Your Darkroom thread'.

Congratulations! Although I notice that you are holding your hands so that we can't quite tell if you still have all your fingers :)

(And I'm not sure if your model is quite worthy of an SC11---she looks a bit, well, stiff...)

Harold_4074

22-Oct-2013, 14:13

She is a little stiff, but can stand very still, a great feature for a model!

And I'll bet that she never complains that your pictures haven't done her justice.

I'd like to see a picture of the SC11 in use---I was playing with mine yesterday afternoon, and am still amazed at the amount of room it takes up. Unbeatable fun, though.

Tin Can

22-Oct-2013, 14:29

Well, I wanted the stand and had to buy the camera to get the stand, right now I am using the stand with Levy copy camera converted to 8x10 and 11x14. The SC11 has only a 10x12 back, but tomorrow I hope to get 5x7, 8x10 and 11x14 backs locally. I am not going to bother with 10x12, it just came with the camera and stand.

I was considering converting it to 14x17, but that idea is already changing to a completely different specialized 14x17 camera, so I can preserve the SC11 and do not overload it with my conversion back. Even a SC11 is not bulletproof, nor as strong as the Levy copy camera.

The real advantage of the SC11 is it's potential for 75" of draw, but right now I only have 2 bellows and 55" draw. I am looking for a 3rd bellows to gain full functionality.

As for room, the camera and stand are in the kitchen looking over a sofa to a backdrop or wall 12' and 16' respectively, which is plenty for my current plans. I can move it to a new angle and get a 30' shot also.

Let's see your setup!

She is a little stiff, but can stand very still, a great feature for a model!

And I'll bet that she never complains that your pictures haven't done her justice.

I'd like to see a picture of the SC11 in use---I was playing with mine yesterday afternoon, and am still amazed at the amount of room it takes up. Unbeatable fun, though.