Lens Shutter Sticks

[jonesp]

Hello All, I have a Schneider-Kreuznach Xenar 1:4.5/150 lens I got from a friend and plan to use it on my 4x5s; however, I'm finding that the shutter "sticks" at 1/25th and will not close at all below 1/10th of a second. Someone told me to remove the lens (front and back), and place the entire shutter mechanism in lighter fluid for a few minutes, then work the shutter to "un-stick" it, and let it dry out. Anyone tried this before?

[Jac@stafford.net]

Yes, but you do not have to immerse the shutter. Just flood the mechanism with lighter fluid. Work shutter several times. Shake out what fluid you can. Repeat one more time. Let it dry. Replace lenses.

If that does not work, then mechanical repair is probably necessary.

Enjoy!

[jonesp]

Thanks Jac@stafford.net, will do that when I get home.

[Andrew]

personally, I'd spend the dollars to get a trained technician to service it properly... it's not that expensive

[ridax]

Exercising a shutter with both liquid and air inside is too much of totally unnecessary stress to the gear as the liquid surface tension works against it - and that's pretty strong a force actually. Immersing the shutter in a can of liquid is actually far more favorable. Wait until all the air goes out, then exercise your shutter. And better do not cock nor release it when taken out of the fluid and until completely dry - just to be on the safe side.

[jonesp]

Thanks all for the advice. Andrew, I did talk to the local repair shop (and only one here in this part of Alaska), who quoted around $175.00 all said and done. I'll give this a try first and hope for the best.

[Jim Noel]

If necessary to take/send it to a repair shop, it would b far cheaper to ship it to Carol at Flutot's Camera repair, than pay $175.

[Leigh]

The lighter fluid trick is an urban legend that's grown very long legs.

It's perhaps the worst thing you could do short of throwing the shutter in a kennel and letting dogs play with it.

Using any solvent on a shutter removes all of the lubricants that belong there.

Admittedly, gummy lubricants are likely the cause of the problem.
They're usually removed from shutter components after disassembly, using an ultrasonic bath.

The critical point is that the lubricants must be replaced, using the right types in the correct quantities, if
the shutter is expected to work properly in the future.

That step must be skipped completely in the lighter fluid method, since the shutter is not disassembled.

I've serviced many shutters commercially, for professional clients with strict quality standards.
It's not difficult or time consuming. It just takes the right equipment, particularly the right oils and greases.

- Leigh

[jonesp]

Thanks Leigh, yes I was thinking about the re-lubing of parts. Just sent Flutot's an email to see when they can fit me in. Still leaves me with a 75, 90, and 210 lens to use. Fall is upon us here in Alaska and the fall colors have about a 3-4 week window or so, so I'll make do with those.

[Andrew]

Thanks all for the advice. Andrew, I did talk to the local repair shop (and only one here in this part of Alaska), who quoted around $175.00 all said and done. I'll give this a try first and hope for the best.

OUCH... !!! that sounds way too much. I have access to a local person in Sydney who'll charge half that and some research should find someone you could post the shutter to who'd be charging similar money [though you will have to factor post charges]

[jonesp]

Everything a little pricier here Andrew. Waiting to hear from CA, they will:

CLAC for MF & LF Shutters: Price $87.00

That's Clean, Lubricate, Adjust, and Check—a four-step process that will bring your shutter back to the best performance it's capable of.

1. First, we'll clean your shutter to get rid of all that old sticky or hardened lubrication. Then we'll let the shutter sit for a few days just to make sure all that old lubrication is out—and isn't causing any problems. This sometimes takes a bit longer with certain shutters.

2. Once it's thoroughly clean and dry, we'll lightly apply the proper lubricants to all lubrication points.. so your shutter runs smoothly.

3. Next, we'll adjust your shutter so it can be as true as possible to the Dial settings. We aim to adjust shutters within these tolerances. The lower shutter speeds can usually be gotten back to the correct speeds easily . However, at higher shutter speeds this is not always possible -- there is only so much that can be done when parts have significant wear. Sometimes it's possible to overhaul a shutter, depending on the availability of parts.

4. Then we'll check your shutter once again--a final check--and provide you with a timing sheet of your shutter's test results. It shows the actual speed at each indicated speed.

Sounds like a good deal.

[BrianShaw]

I pay $135 with a turnaround time of less than 2 weeks. Less expensive is possible but sometimes paying for faster service is well worth it.

[Leigh]

Everything a little pricier here Andrew. Waiting to hear from CA, they will:
CLAC for MF & LF Shutters: Price $87.00
That sounds reasonable. It's about an hour's work.

- Leigh

[Steve Smith]

What Leigh wrote is exactly right.

If you 'fix' a shutter using the flushing out method, you will initially be pleased with yourself because you got it working. However, after it has dried out a bit more, it will usually jam up again as you have removed not only the sticky mess which was causing the problem but also the lubricants which are supposed to be there to keep it running smoothly. The still damp solvent was supplying just enough lubrication to make you think you had fixed it.

About the only cleaning you can do without taking it apart is when there are obvious signs of oil or grease on the shutter blades. This can be cleaned off with a small amount of solvent and some cotton buds (called Q Tips in the US?).

I have successfully carried this out on my Rolleiflex shutter.

However, if there was a sticky mess on the blades, there is likely to be some inside too. I just haven't had a problem with the rest of this shutter - yet!


Steve.

[ridax]

OK... actually, I used to wash my shutters as I described above, dry those, and then open the front (without disassembling any gears) and apply oil to certain places. Though I've also read about using shutters with all lubricants completely removed being a common practice for Arctic conditions as with enough of cold, virtually any lubricant would get too thick. Dry usage would shorten the shutter's life of course but Compurs are durable enough to withstand the abuse for some time (but I guess most of the other known shutters would fail though).

And yes gasoline (lighter fluid) is nasty. First, it isn't a solvent good enough on its own - hence the ultrasonic bath I guess. Second, it does not evaporate fast when mixed with oils (or bitumen or other similar stuff). So indeed a gasoline-washed shutter may work OK for a week or a month and then get stuck again. I actually used a very different solvent instead. It dissolved and washed away all the grease at once and evaporated fast. Actually, I've eventually found that I could wash an over-oiled shutter in a small amount of that solvent and then use the shutter indefinitely without any re-lubrication as the solvent+oil mixture left a thin layer of pure oil when the solvent evaporated. The layer was too thin to make the blades stick but still enough to serve as a lubricant where it was needed.

But sorry guys I would not name the chemical here as it is pretty toxic. So unless you aren't a decent chemist perhaps you’d better pay the price a trained repairman asks or try the damned gasoline... Though I still can't catch the idea to pay for the CLA if it costs about the same one can buy another (though not a new) shutter for. And BTW its worth asking local watch repair people before sending your shutter to a distant and expensive special service. Anyone dealing with mechanical watches should be skilled enough to CLA a shutter, too.

[rbultman]

I've seen these discussions before. Are there guides regarding what in a shutter needs to be lubricated as will as types of lubricant and sources? I'd like to do my own repairs.

-Rob

[Leigh]

Hi Rob, and welcome aboard.

Yes, the manufacturers published service manuals for their shutters, of varying quality.

Compur produced a beautiful manual, printed on heavy gloss stock, with colored highlights showing the various areas to be lubricated and identifying the type of lubricant to use. I strongly recommend that you find a copy of this, either a high-quality scan or an original. The instructions are applicable to virtually any modern shutter.

Also, try to find copies of the course materials from National Camera in Denver (closed long ago).
They had a very good set of training materials for their correspondence course (which I took).

The main vendor of tools and supplies for the trade is Micro-Tools in California, run by Curt Fargo, online at
http://www.micro-tools.com/

Shutter repair is not difficult. You need a good ultrasonic cleaner, some jeweler's screwdrivers and other hand tools, and an assortment of lubricants. The latter can be a challenge.

Excellent products were available like Nye Astro Oil, but at over $100/ounce, many folks are likely to seek out cheaper and less reliable alternatives.
Whale sperm oil is also excellent, but with the world-wide ban on whaling it's almost impossible to find.
You may find suitable products on the auction sites, but be sure they're really what they claim to be.

As was mentioned above, in harsh cold climates you completely remove the lubricants. I did that for my wife's
Nikon F2 when she went to Antarctica. It performed flawlessly. I restored the lubricants when she returned.

You'll need an Opti-Visor binocular magnifier. It fits on your head, leaving your hands free. Get the good one with glass lenses, not the cheaper polycarbonate ones. I prefer the 3x power for shutter work. Interchangeable lenses are available from 2x to 10x IIRC. You can buy these anywhere, cheaper than at Micro-Tools.

The ultrasonic cleaner should be of 2 quart capacity. Buy a suitable cleaning fluid with it, not water-based (IMO).
You want some small beakers, perhaps up to 250ml, to hold the parts being cleaned and the solvent.
The main tank can be filled with water. You only need enough cleaning fluid to fill the beaker.

With any ultrasonic cleaner, always put the items in a beaker or in the basket supplied. Do not allow them to rest on the bottom of the tank. Doing so can cause a hole in the tank, requiring its replacement.

The best manufacturer of industrial-grade ultrasonic cleaners is Branson.
Do not get a cheap jewelry cleaner. It won't do the job.

- Leigh

[BrianShaw]

... Whale sperm oil is also excellent, ...

I know it is impossible to rewrite history, but I always thought it should be called "Sperm Whale Oil"... just to avoid any embarrassing confusion. :o

[rbultman]

Leigh, thanks for the exceptional reply. I bought a Konica Auto S2 some time ago with the intent of doing my own CLA. At this point the camera is torn down and I'm stuck on the lubrication part so I kind of put that away for a bit. I started looking for watchmaking and repair texts as I thought that might be somewhat close to the mechanical timers on these old cameras. I did find some sources for watch-works lubricants but I got lost in the types available, etc. It would be nice to find a reference on repairing and adjusting Compur and Copal shutters as that would likely help me with just about any shutter I might be interested in repairing myself. I haven't looked for such references however. I'm just getting into large format. As an amateur I'd like to do my own repairs or at least be able to diagnose shutter issues.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

Regards,
Rob

[BrianShaw]

... It would be nice to find a reference on repairing and adjusting Compur and Copal shutters as that would likely help me with just about any shutter I might be interested in repairing myself. ...

http://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/rep/Compur-shutter-repair-manual.html

[LF_rookie_to_be]

Rob, here are all pages of the manual from Brian's link in a single pdf:

http://photographica.tontrennung.de/assets/documents/compur_shutter.pdf

I have most parts of a Compur 1210-05 #0 MXV-type shutter that I don't really need. PM me if you might have some small bits & bobs I'm looking for trade.

[Leigh]

Rob, here are all pages of the manual from Brian's link in a single pdf:
That's the good one, with the colored lubrication schedules. I've seen copies that were monochrome.

Thanks very much.

- Leigh

[adelorenzo]

The lighter fluid trick is an urban legend that's grown very long legs.

It's perhaps the worst thing you could do short of throwing the shutter in a kennel and letting dogs play with it.

I've heard this stated before but all I can say is it worked for me and the only reason I did it was that it has worked for others. I have a Commercial Ektar in an Ilex shutter where the flash sync would not fire at all and the shutter itself was sticky. Did the lighter fluid thing and it now works just fine. I understand that Ilex shutters are designed to be run without lubricant so this might be part of the equation.

When you've spent less than $200 on a lens it hardly makes sense to spend that much again to get it working if there are other options.

[BrianShaw]

When you've spent less than $200 on a lens it hardly makes sense to spend that much again to get it working if there are other options.

Not criticizing you specifically, but the thought in general... I think any lens, no matter how little it cost, is worth a professional overhaul if one wants it to be really reliable. My favorite lens came with a camera - the whole kit cost $25 + shipping - and the shutter overhaul cost $135... which was well worth it because it became a very reliable and easy-to-use camera. How much one should invest in repairs and servicing really is a function of their need/desire for reliability more than an investment computation.

Having said that... the lighter fluid trick has worked good enough for enough people that it has become a bit more than urban legend!

[adelorenzo]

Not criticizing you specifically, but the thought in general... I think any lens, no matter how little it cost, is worth a professional overhaul if one wants it to be really reliable. My favorite lens came with a camera - the whole kit cost $25 + shipping - and the shutter overhaul cost $135... which was well worth it because it became a very reliable and easy-to-use camera. How much one should invest in repairs and servicing really is a function of their need/desire for reliability more than an investment computation.

You have a point, certainly. When it comes to shipping something across the border twice, with the inherent costs and delays, plus the costs and turnaround times for service, these are things I'll weigh that against the desire for doing it professionally or reliability when making a decision on what to do. I have sent camera gear in for professional repair but if it's something that isn't worth a lot to me I'd rather just take a stab at it myself.

I'm not under the illusion that my hack to get my 60-year old shutter running is perfect or up to any professional standard. When you start thinking along those lines, I probably shouldn't drill my own lens boards with a hole saw that's roughly the right size, mount flange-less lenses with rubber o-rings and hot glue, adapt a back to a different camera using gorilla tape... I guess what it comes down to is I don't mind being a hack, at the end of the day I have fun and I make some pictures. Hacking around with stuff is just another fun part of the hobby!

[ridax]

When you start thinking along those lines, I probably shouldn't drill my own lens boards with a hole saw that's roughly the right size, mount flange-less lenses with rubber o-rings and hot glue, adapt a back to a different camera using gorilla tape... I guess what it comes down to is I don't mind being a hack, at the end of the day I have fun and I make some pictures.

That reminds me....

My first (35mm) camera was a Smena. It worked hard for several years but eventually the main spring in the shutter (a simplified version of the Compur clone) got broken. Being too young a boy to dare disassembling a shutter, more so the built-in shutter of my only camera, I tried just connecting the cocking lever to the protruding sync terminal with a thin rubber band, and the rubber introduced enough force to make the shutter work as nicely as ever. I thought it would not last long but it actually did for more then a year of daily usage. And when it got torn at last, it took me about a minute to reintegrate that rubber with a simple knot. The lesson I learned was, don't ever undervalue Low Technology.

[BrianShaw]

... but if it's something that isn't worth a lot to me I'd rather just take a stab at it myself. ... Hacking around with stuff is just another fun part of the hobby!

Yes!

[Leigh]

I guess what it comes down to is I don't mind being a hack, at the end of the day I have fun and I make some pictures. Hacking around with stuff is just another fun part of the hobby!
Agreed.

If the remedy enables the shutter to function within your requirements, that's all that matters.

- Leigh

[rbultman]

This is great. Thanks for the link.

[domaz]

I know it's bad juju to trash old shutters but if faced with an $80-150 repair bill for a common #0 shutter then you could consider buying a functioning one on eBay. It's not hard to pick up 135mm/4.7 Xenars for less than that in a Synchro-Compur for instance. Making aperture scales isn't too hard.

[Leigh]

Making aperture scales isn't too hard.
But properly locating the front and rear cells relative to each other and to the diaphragm plane is a challenge.

-- Leigh