8x10 enlarger from a sinar p

[redshift]

What are the major difficulties in using a camera as an enlarger. I know I'll need a light source. I've got a Photogenic dome reflector that might work. What bulb would be best? can I use the GG holder as a negative stage? Clear glass or AN? Can I lay a piece of Duratrans on top of the negative for diffusion? I'd need a way to hold VC filters. Is it a crazy idea? kevin

[Tony Lakin]

Completely crazy in my opinion, I am greatly in favour of enterprise and invention etc. but unless you are very hard up you should be able to pick up a 10x8 enlarger very cheaply or gratis and save yourself a great deal of hassle.

Good luck.

[Tin Can]

Wait a minute. Not that crazy. And 8x10 enlargers are not plentiful, too many were thrown away.

Why not, try it, it will cost you almost nothing and will not damage your P. In the past there were Graflargers which did exactly this.

You could try many light sources, even a studio flash head, fired a few times.

Filters can go below the lens. Use the Lee rubber band filter holder.

Make your light source light tight with foam core.

Show us the results!

[Len Middleton]

Kevin,

Not crazy, but not without its challenges...

FYI, the is a Devere 8x10 enlarger listed for sale in the Toronto area for C$1500.

It depends upon how much time you have, what your time is worth, what fabrication skills you have, and how good you are at it. Another potential issue is whether the Sinar is surplus, or are you going to need to assemble and disassemble it between enlarger and camera; that may limit your darkroom time. Are you looking at a vertical or horizontal enlarger configuration? Each have their challenges...

Could use the Beseler 8x10 conversion kit negative holder idea, in that just take two pieces of glass (ideally clear and AN) and create a hinge between them by taping them together on one of the long edges.

A number of options on light source depending upon if you are doing B&W or if you want to take on the challenge of colour. For B&W, compact fluorescent lamps, halogen, tungsten, or LED are all options for diffusion sources, but for multigrade paper you will need to put the filters into the light path. Might have a look at how large heads are constructed for reference.

Another alternate is to list at WTB ad in the classified section for an 8x10 enlarger and in the local Craigslist or Kijiji.

Hope that provides a little more insight, as it was some of the things I was looking at doing before I got my 8x10 enlarger.

Good luck,

Len

[redshift]

Thanks All.

It was a challenge to find a 4x5 enlarger in Maine! People that have 8x10s for sale seem reluctant to ship them. I only work in B&W so that makes the light choice simpler. The Beseler conversion is a great idea. Maybe I'll leave the Sinar P out of the plan and use one of the old wood cameras I was planning on rehabbing as a bellows/focusing mechanism. I'm not looking for a large range of image sizes. Being able to crop a portion onto 8x10 paper or enlarge to 11x14. I think vertical would be the best for me. I've got 8' of ceiling height but horizontal is limited.

I have a couple of cold light sources in 4x5. Could I get away with moving the light source away from the negative stage? I expect the exposures would be longer if I did that.

I've built a dining room set from cherry wood I harvested on my land and built fire trucks for a living so I've got some fabrication skills and a good workshop.

Time is my own and this seems like an enjoyable investment.

Thanks again for the help.

kevin

[Tin Can]

Obviously you can make anything.

Good luck!



Thanks All.

It was a challenge to find a 4x5 enlarger in Maine! People that have 8x10s for sale seem reluctant to ship them. I only work in B&W so that makes the light choice simpler. The Beseler conversion is a great idea. Maybe I'll leave the Sinar P out of the plan and use one of the old wood cameras I was planning on rehabbing as a bellows/focusing mechanism. I'm not looking for a large range of image sizes. Being able to crop a portion onto 8x10 paper or enlarge to 11x14. I think vertical would be the best for me. I've got 8' of ceiling height but horizontal is limited.

I have a couple of cold light sources in 4x5. Could I get away with moving the light source away from the negative stage? I expect the exposures would be longer if I did that.

I've built a dining room set from cherry wood I harvested on my land and built fire trucks for a living so I've got some fabrication skills and a good workshop.

Time is my own and this seems like an enjoyable investment.

Thanks again for the help.

kevin

[Tony Lakin]

Thanks All.

It was a challenge to find a 4x5 enlarger in Maine! People that have 8x10s for sale seem reluctant to ship them. I only work in B&W so that makes the light choice simpler. The Beseler conversion is a great idea. Maybe I'll leave the Sinar P out of the plan and use one of the old wood cameras I was planning on rehabbing as a bellows/focusing mechanism. I'm not looking for a large range of image sizes. Being able to crop a portion onto 8x10 paper or enlarge to 11x14. I think vertical would be the best for me. I've got 8' of ceiling height but horizontal is limited.

I have a couple of cold light sources in 4x5. Could I get away with moving the light source away from the negative stage? I expect the exposures would be longer if I did that.

I've built a dining room set from cherry wood I harvested on my land and built fire trucks for a living so I've got some fabrication skills and a good workshop.

Time is my own and this seems like an enjoyable investment.

Thanks again for the help.

kevin

Maybe not a crazy idea with your skills and facilities and with time on your hands it will be an interesting and worthwhile project, I had not realized that 10x8 enlargers were scarce in the US they still come up fairly regularly in the UK, not so common on the Isle Of Man though, I have the only one (modified Devere 108) which cost me a great deal to get here about 25 years ago, I had to do a lot of work modifying it to my requirements which I also enjoyed.

Best wishes.

[Tin Can]

Tony,

That's the spirit!

Someday, I want to see your bike race, most likely never happening.


Maybe not a crazy idea with your skills and facilities and with time on your hands it will be an interesting and worthwhile project, I had not realized that 10x8 enlargers were scarce in the US they still come up fairly regularly in the UK, not so common on the Isle Of Man though, I have the only one (modified Devere 108) which cost me a great deal to get here about 25 years ago, I had to do a lot of work modifying it to my requirements which I also enjoyed.

Best wishes.

[Tony Lakin]

Randy
If you ever make it to the IOM it would be great to meet a fellow LF forum member, we are all a little peeved over here at the moment due to the goings on at the Tour De France which left our Mark Cavendish with no chance of winning the yellow jersey.

Regards

[Tin Can]

I mean the TT, but I did read here of Cav's problems. http://www.iomtoday.co.im/sport/cycling/chaos-for-cav-in-france-1-5810990

I'm a huge motorbike nut. Actually anything on 2 or 3 wheels. Hate the cage.




Randy
If you ever make it to the IOM it would be great to meet a fellow LF forum member, we are all a little peeved over here at the moment due to the goings on at the Tour De France which left our Mark Cavendish with no chance of winning the yellow jersey.

Regards

[redshift]

I don't want to jinx this project but I think its going to be easier than I thought.

For a basic test I mounted my 8x10 Sinar P on a tripod. Took a 300mm Rodenstock lens and mounted it backwards in a lens board. Placed a negative over the GG and pointed the thing at a wall. Using a studio hotlight dome placed it over the GG holder and projected an image on the wall. Moving the tripod allowed for a wide range of image sizes. Using a long Sinar rail and moving the standards gave a lot of adjustment as well. I don't have enough horizontal bench in the darkroom but I have plenty of floor room to find a wall to aim at.

I'm going to make a frame to hold an easel on the wall with x/y adjustments. I've got a hercules tripod with geared adjustments in all directions. I figure with all the adjustments the Sinar standards have and using the laser alignment tool I can get all the stages fine tuned. Now I have to figure out a light source!

[Tin Can]

I knew it was easy.

When you get set up, take a pic of the mess and show us.

Cool!




I don't want to jinx this project but I think its going to be easier than I thought.

For a basic test I mounted my 8x10 Sinar P on a tripod. Took a 300mm Rodenstock lens and mounted it backwards in a lens board. Placed a negative over the GG and pointed the thing at a wall. Using a studio hotlight dome placed it over the GG holder and projected an image on the wall. Moving the tripod allowed for a wide range of image sizes. Using a long Sinar rail and moving the standards gave a lot of adjustment as well. I don't have enough horizontal bench in the darkroom but I have plenty of floor room to find a wall to aim at.

I'm going to make a frame to hold an easel on the wall with x/y adjustments. I've got a hercules tripod with geared adjustments in all directions. I figure with all the adjustments the Sinar standards have and using the laser alignment tool I can get all the stages fine tuned. Now I have to figure out a light source!

[Tin Can]

Also shoot some chromes and you have a huge slide projector to bore the kids with.

[kyle carter]

Clyde Butcher has a horizontal enlarger made from a copy camera. So, it's possible and practical - at least for one person.

[JW Dewdney]

I don't want to jinx this project but I think its going to be easier than I thought.

For a basic test I mounted my 8x10 Sinar P on a tripod. Took a 300mm Rodenstock lens and mounted it backwards in a lens board....

Redshift - not sure why you felt the compulsion to mount your lens backwards - that's only going to (in theory only possibly) reap results if you're trying to reduce the size of the image down from 8x10 (in the range of two inches or smaller) really...

but I applaud your efforts - there's really no reason why a healthy bit of sinar kit wouldn't work well for the application. The only trick is working out a solid negative stage and light source. I see no reason why one couldn't have a 'back' fabricated to integrate with the rear standard that wouldn't work well...

[Tin Can]

Sinar's can do anything, and if they can't, a Horseman will...

[Tim Meisburger]

Easy. See my post in DIY for a 5x7 conversion.

[redshift]

Redshift - not sure why you felt the compulsion to mount your lens backwards - that's only going to (in theory only possibly) reap results if you're trying to reduce the size of the image down from 8x10 (in the range of two inches or smaller) really...

but I applaud your efforts - there's really no reason why a healthy bit of sinar kit wouldn't work well for the application. The only trick is working out a solid negative stage and light source. I see no reason why one couldn't have a 'back' fabricated to integrate with the rear standard that wouldn't work well...

I'm not sure why I reversed the lens, just seemed logical. I didn't measure the results. With the lens about three feet from the wall I was able to get an image in the 8x10 range in focus. At this stage of the project that was all I needed for confirmation. I'll have to study this issue as I go along.

[redshift]

Easy. See my post in DIY for a 5x7 conversion.

Thanks Tim. Looks like a good source of inspiration. kevin

[jon.oman]

Didn't Ansel Adams do this with his 8x10 camera? I believe so.....

[Drew Wiley]

I used a long rail and front standard of a Sinar P for one of my vertical enlargers simply because this is very solid and gives me much more precise alignment control
than any typical enlarger per se. However, everything else (except the lens) was custom built, including the oversized bellows. I would agree that 8x10 enlargers
are easy to acquire nowadays (at least compared to how expensive they once were), and that one can simply acquire a full unit. In my case I wanted something
very solid and precise. ... where the Sinar rail clamps (yes I use multiple) would ordinarily attach to a long bar, then a tripod, in this case the whole assembly
attaches to a heavy precisely machined-bronze micrometer-driven device which allows even finer tuning in every plane. I cannibalized this from a WWII mortar
sight, then finished it to match the rest of the enlarger. Something like that would have probably cost at least five thousand dollars to custom machine, but I
snagged it for free, military surplus. While my neighbors were fooling around rebuilding sports cars and speedboats, I was tinkering on enlargers.

[redshift]

I used a long rail and front standard of a Sinar P for one of my vertical enlargers simply because this is very solid and gives me much more precise alignment control
than any typical enlarger per se. However, everything else (except the lens) was custom built, including the oversized bellows. I would agree that 8x10 enlargers
are easy to acquire nowadays (at least compared to how expensive they once were), and that one can simply acquire a full unit. In my case I wanted something
very solid and precise. ... where the Sinar rail clamps (yes I use multiple) would ordinarily attach to a long bar, then a tripod, in this case the whole assembly
attaches to a heavy precisely machined-bronze micrometer-driven device which allows even finer tuning in every plane. I cannibalized this from a WWII mortar
sight, then finished it to match the rest of the enlarger. Something like that would have probably cost at least five thousand dollars to custom machine, but I
snagged it for free, military surplus. While my neighbors were fooling around rebuilding sports cars and speedboats, I was tinkering on enlargers.

I thought I was obsessed with precision!

[Tin Can]

Sports cars keep gaining value, yet an enlarger produces value.

[Drew Wiley]

The value of the base micrometer mount is to be able to adjust the linearity of the rail absolutely in relation to the big vac easel, so that no plane shifts if there is
a significant change in position of the P front mount due to switching lenses of magnification etc. No conventional enlarger has this except in a primitive sense of
general integrity (some better than others). Since this device was intended to be used adjacent to the steady shock of heavy artillery, it was built extremely solid,
and makes a Majestic gear head look like a plastic toy out of a Cracker Jacks box by comparison. Because I live only six blocks from the infamous Hayward fault,
I chose a property specifically because it is one of the few places in the area underlain by granite (so any seismic waves pass thru quickly), and constructed a
machine like this very massively. The column is so dimensionally stable than I could leave a neg in there six months and it will still be in precise focus under a grain
magnifier. The colorhead itself requires block and tackle to lift for servicing.

[Tin Can]

Sounds great Drew!

Would you share a picture or 2 of the setup?




The value of the base micrometer mount is to be able to adjust the linearity of the rail absolutely in relation to the big vac easel, so that no plane shifts if there is
a significant change in position of the P front mount due to switching lenses of magnification etc. No conventional enlarger has this except in a primitive sense of
general integrity (some better than others). Since this device was intended to be used adjacent to the steady shock of heavy artillery, it was built extremely solid,
and makes a Majestic gear head look like a plastic toy out of a Cracker Jacks box by comparison. Because I live only six blocks from the infamous Hayward fault,
I chose a property specifically because it is one of the few places in the area underlain by granite (so any seismic waves pass thru quickly), and constructed a
machine like this very massively. The column is so dimensionally stable than I could leave a neg in there six months and it will still be in precise focus under a grain
magnifier. The colorhead itself requires block and tackle to lift for servicing.

[Drew Wiley]

One of these day perhaps, Randy ... It wouldn't be convenient to put lights in there or anything else for a shot this season, while it's in use. This darkroom is a little
cramped. The enlrgr is about 13ft tall, is equipped with a massive pin-registered easel with masking blades, and I've got a big steel rolling warehouse ladder in there to load it, a 40X60 cutting table for cutting rolls of printing paper and trimming final images, a bunch of huge papersafes, etc - so not a lot of wiggleroom for me too. It's more comfortable in the room where I keep the 5x7 color enlarger and the 8x10 cold light unit, because I only make prints up to 20x24 in there.

[Tin Can]

Sounds very interesting, my space is becoming smaller all the time also, I need to cull and concentrate.

Your description will have to suffice.

Thanks!




One of these day perhaps, Randy ... It wouldn't be convenient to put lights in there or anything else for a shot this season, while it's in use. This darkroom is a little
cramped. The enlrgr is about 13ft tall, is equipped with a massive pin-registered easel with masking blades, and I've got a big steel rolling warehouse ladder in there to load it, a 40X60 cutting table for cutting rolls of printing paper and trimming final images, a bunch of huge papersafes, etc - so not a lot of wiggleroom for me too. It's more comfortable in the room where I keep the 5x7 color enlarger and the 8x10 cold light unit, because I only make prints up to 20x24 in there.

[ic-racer]

Consider a horizontal approach. A cart on wheels to support the head would likely be easier to construct than a vertical column capable of supporting the camera and light source.

[Tim Meisburger]

I agree. Ansel's was horizontal. Also, less problem with negative sag and low ceilings.

[JW Dewdney]

yes i'm sure he'll go horizontal in the end. only way to do it half decently i'm sure.

as for your lens mounting, Redshift - I think you will find that you won't really benefit from it unless your bellows draw is SIGNIFICANTLY greater than your distance to your paper - just the same as you would do when shooting a pic. By reversing it - you're making the lens do unnecessary 'macro' work.One DOES reverse a lens usually - when one needs to magnify beyond 1:1 (your print much smaller than your negative - in this case)...

[redshift]

The task is finally complete. I mounted a Sinar P horizontally on a Hercules tripod. The tripod gives me all kinds of geared adjustments. I built a light box that mounts in place of the ground glass/film holder. The film holder is made of a sheet of AN glass and a sheet of cover glass taped on the 8" side to make a negative sandwich. The glass carrier fits into a slot cut in the light box. An LED light source was built under the guidance of Cemil Purut of Modern Enlarger Lamps. He was really key to the success of this project. I hung a frame on the wall that holds an 11x14 easel. It's a bit of a pain in the stones to load. The easel comes off the wall, paper is loaded, easel put back on the wall.

Setup is pretty easy. I tape a Versalign laser to the easel and bounce the beam off the negative carrier and then off the front standard. I can get better/easier alignment with this than I can with my Omega.

I'll fine tune the construction (maybe) as time goes on. I could get a piece of aluminum channel instead of the oak board. I will rebuild the light box as there are few "trial and error" scars that need to be cleaned up.

Overall it wasn't a bad project

When I took this picture there was no lens on the enlarger.
100077

[Tin Can]

Very nice. I knew of Modern Enlarger Lamps and I am interested in specifics about your 8x10 head, if you care to share.

Looking good!


The task is finally complete. I mounted a Sinar P horizontally on a Hercules tripod. The tripod gives me all kinds of geared adjustments. I built a light box that mounts in place of the ground glass/film holder. The film holder is made of a sheet of AN glass and a sheet of cover glass taped on the 8" side to make a negative sandwich. The glass carrier fits into a slot cut in the light box. An LED light source was built under the guidance of Cemil Purut of Modern Enlarger Lamps. He was really key to the success of this project. I hung a frame on the wall that holds an 11x14 easel. It's a bit of a pain in the stones to load. The easel comes off the wall, paper is loaded, easel put back on the wall.

Setup is pretty easy. I tape a Versalign laser to the easel and bounce the beam off the negative carrier and then off the front standard. I can get better/easier alignment with this than I can with my Omega.

I'll fine tune the construction (maybe) as time goes on. I could get a piece of aluminum channel instead of the oak board. I will rebuild the light box as there are few "trial and error" scars that need to be cleaned up.

Overall it wasn't a bad project

When I took this picture there was no lens on the enlarger.
100077

[Kirk Fry]

I've seen Clyde's enlarger. The thing is huge, he has it in a small warehouse. Not for the faint of heart. Would not fit in a normal size garage. Morley Baer also had a horizontal one that was not as big in a garage sized darkroom in Carmel.
KF