Toning with Selenium + Gold?

[tgtaylor]

Selenium supposedly tones from the bottom (shadows) up and gold from the top(highlights) down but gold is supposed to tone the whole print at once. I find that absolutely intriguing! Comments/recommendations anyone?

Thomas

[Cletus]

I thought all metallic toners acted on the actual silver in the print - i.e., gold or selenium molecules actually combine with and transform the silver molecules suspended in the gelatin, or something like that. Not sure how any metallic toner would be able work on the highlights - I guess there's a small amount of silver there too, though - or possibly just stain the paper. Or, maybe I have it all wrong! :) I don't purport to be an expert on toning, just the little reading I've done suggests to me that this is basically the way they work.

Incidentally, I have a 2-Part 500ml "Gold Toner" kit, which the label states is 0.2% gold chloride in solution with..whatever it is, and some second solution. I've done extensive searching of the literature (the interwebs) and have found ZERO info on gold toning using anything less than 5% (not 0.5%, much less 0.2%) for toning. Nor have I seen any visible result of any kind using this 0.2% solution at "full strength", whether it be silver gelatin, pt/pd, or Kallitype. The price for a few milliliters of 5% gold chloride is quite a bit more than I want to spend to see what a properly gold toned print looks like.

[Drew Wiley]

They act in an analogous manner, deepening all the values proportionately, though with different color effect. I'll use one or the other, or often both sequentially. Actual image color depends on all kinds of things, but selenium generally created a warming of blacks, gold a cooling or bluing. I'm referring to common silver-gelatin papers and basic gold in the form of very
low-concentration GP-1 etc. There are all kinds of tweaks if you want to split-tone or otherwise break the rules, or for use
in alternative processes. You can use gold quite weak if you use it warm and for longer times. No sense wasting a lot of money. Properly used and it isn't all that expensive. Some published formulas are ridiculously wasteful.

[bob carnie]

I use gold with sepia and selenium.
It is the second bath and affects the uppermidtones most. the image goes a peachy colour , most definately not cold.

[Cletus]

So the 0.2% Gold Toner kit I have might actually be useful for something? Any way you might point me to some reference explaining how to use this? I've found nothing after extensive searching. Even B&S, who sold the kit, doesn't publish any instruction or application for this low concentration solution.

Thanks for your help!

[tgtaylor]

Tim Ruddman says that Sepia + Selenium + Gold is killer!

Toning with the precious metals, while expensive, is less expensive than pigment inks. I've read somewhere that the ink is priced at somewhere near $12,000 a gallon! A gallon of 1% gold would be nowhere near that.

Thomas

[Drew Wiley]

I just buy 1% gold chloride from Formulary and mix my own equivalent to GP-1 A&B, then mix a minimum amt and dilute that down just before actual use. It's a lot cheaper to mix your own than buy premixed kits. You just need to experiment a little. 0.2 % is plenty concentrated to fool around with.

[Mark Sampson]

One of the most beautiful prints I have ever made was originally made on Kodak Polymax Fine-art and selenium-toned. A few years later I toned it in Nelson Gold Toner, as an experiment, and the result was spectacular in terms of depth and tone color. The print hangs in my dining room and I still like looking at it. I should try something similar with papers available today...

[bob carnie]

Yes it is addictive and expensive.

Tim Ruddman says that Sepia + Selenium + Gold is killer!

Toning with the precious metals, while expensive, is less expensive than pigment inks. I've read somewhere that the ink is priced at somewhere near $12,000 a gallon! A gallon of 1% gold would be nowhere near that.

Thomas

[Drew Wiley]

Some papers are more responsive than others. Generally, a premium paper with a lot of silver will do best. Gold with MGWT/
Ansco 130 or Kentmere Fineprint/amidol is a marriage made in heaven.

[tgtaylor]

In an experiment last weekend I toned a print I made sometime back in Nelson's Gold toner and it turned a "good" print into a spectacular print. It even seemed to increase the Dmax of the blacks although it was not toned in selenium. At ~ $60 for the PF Nelson's Gold kit appears to be a little pricey but when you consider that it will tone ~ 300 8x10 prints it's not expensive at all.

Thomas

[paulr]

There are lots of different gold toners, and they work diferently on different papers. Selenium also works differently on different papers.

I did most of my work on Fortezo ... a warmtone chlorobromide paper. I toned most prints in a weak selenium solution and then in Nelson Gold Toner (a progressively working warm brown toner that uses gold and sufides).

This combination does not tend to split tone. Both toners work proportionally over the whole image. The selenium cools the final effect of the gold toner, taking it from a red brown to a neutral or cool brown. The degree of development also effects final color. Prints that sit in the developer longer (or at higher temperature) come out warmer/redder.

If the nelson gold is starts to get exhausted, this combination can give split toning ... typically a warmer brown in the highlights than elsewhere. I never did this on purpose, but occasionally liked it. It would be tricky to control.

This toner works a long time, and in practice is not expensive. The trick is to avoid tap water; chlorine kills it. I don't have a chemistry explanation for why this is. If you mix with distilled H20, the toner can last for hundreds of prints per gallon. I worked out a topping-off replenisher solution that keeps it working consistently until it finally dies (for reasons unrelated to gold depletion).

[Cletus]

Wow! What a bunch of great comments on gold toner, thanks for posting! Now I'm all excited to try out my little 0.2% kit again when I get home in a few weeks. It was a 500ml, 2 part kit from B&S and I still have about half left.

It seems the last thing I tried toning with it was a silver print on either Ilford MGIV FB, or maybe Oriental Seagull FB, no Selenuim toning and tried it at a number of varying concemtrations, including up to maybe 1:5 (1 pt A+B to 5 part water) and got no discernable tone after, like an hour in the toner bath. That was pretty much "max case" for me and after that I gave up on it.

I wonder if there's something wrong with my toner itself? Seems like I should've seen some change with all that?

[Mark Sampson]

paulr, your comments on mixing selenium and gold toners explain my experience better than I could.
Cletus, Nelson Gold Toner, at least, needs to be at 100F to work. Before you try gold toning again, review the various recipes to see how what you did compares.

[tgtaylor]

Warmtone papers are supposed to work best and coldtone papers can take a long time for minimal effect. I experienced the latter several months back when trying to tone a coldtone Oriental RC paper with a Kodak Polytone formula at room temperature. It took forever with only a minimal (but pleasing) shift in color. For the experiment noted in the post above, I placed a previously untoned print on Ilford MGWT in in the toning tray and placed both in a hot water bath to both soak the print and raise it and the tray to 100F to 110F before adding the Nelson's Gold toner. To maintain a constant toning temperature of 100F to 110F, I purchased a warming tray at Sears for a little less than $50. A piece of acrylic placed on top of the tray will prevent the heat from escaping due to the large surface area. I used a plastic Patterson tray which was unaffected by the heat. A very good tone was achieved after about 17 minutes. Next I will try toning with selenium first and then Nelson's and DuPont T6.

Great fun and beautiful results!

Thomas

[paulr]

Warmtone papers are supposed to work best and coldtone papers can take a long time for minimal effect.

My understanding is that what makes a warmtone paper appear warm is the way light scatters off its finer silver grain structure. This physical trait means more surface area of the filament-like metalic silver is available for chemical reactions.

On Fortezo, for example, I diluted rapid selenium toner 20ml/L, and Nelson gold toner 1:2. Normal dilutions worked so fast they were too hard to control.