Patience........grasshopper(s)

[Kirk Gittings]

Speaking to my fellow old timers here. I find my patience button being pushed more frequently recently and my reservoir gets lower the older I get. "Active members" has jumped up to the 2900's again (great) and the number of super basic basic questions about LF and film etc. here have skyrocketed of late. But then I realize that in the old days before the digital tsunami most people were moving up from small or medium format (like I did) and probably had a fair amount of experience with film, exposure etc. before attempting LF. Now however many people moving up to LF have little or no film experience and are taking the mighty leap into the unknown to LF. Its a totally different world.

[David Aimone]

I was one of those new to film about 3 years ago. And I started with 4x5 then added medium format. I couldn't have done it without the patience of many around here, including yourself.

Thank you! I hope it wasn't too painful!

Let's keep helping those who are new, and who are willing to give something back in return. I, for one, have contributed a bit back here, but I also consider my vast sums spent on film as helping to support all of us as companies like Efke and Kodak cut back or consider cutting back.

David

[BrianShaw]

The growing number of new folks is a good thing!

[Kirk Gittings]

The growing number of new folks is a good thing!

absolutely!

I wish I could remember how stupid I used to be in the beginning but I have blocked such painful memories!

[Kirk Gittings]

I was one of those new to film about 3 years ago. And I started with 4x5 then added medium format. I couldn't have done it without the patience of many around here, including yourself.

Thank you! I hope it wasn't too painful!

Let's keep helping those who are new, and who are willing to give something back in return. I, for one, have contributed a bit back here, but I also consider my vast sums spent on film as helping to support all of us as companies like Efke and Kodak cut back or consider cutting back.

David

Glad I could help.

[Vaughn]

I guess I am an old-timer...a bit over 6 years on this forum and 30+ years using LF.

Patience is required for most things in life. Ten years packing mules and then 16 years (so far) of raising triplets, added to the years of LF photography certainly has helped me to develop some patience. I also am the darkroom tech at a university and answer the same questions over and over with each new batch of eager students. Just a few minutes ago I was asked "What does '28mm focal length' mean?" How does one describe it to someone new to photograph? Stumped me for a second or two...it is something I just take for granted!

So I do not mind answering the same questions here. I do dislike it when veteran members just blurt out "We have discussed this before -- do a search!" Especially without providing a link to past discussions that might help. Besides being rude, who knows what new way of looking at the question we would miss? What interesting and enlightening tangents would not be taken in the thread?

There is no requirement to answer questions, so those who lack the patience to face the same questions should not bother reading the posts...and especially not bother answering them!

Vaughn

[Brian C. Miller]

This brings up something that I think would be good: a LF wiki. I know that these are relatively easy to set up, and I and my team at work edit these for documentation and communication. I looked at Wikipedia, but I'm of two minds about getting involved with that.

The reason for a wiki specific to this site is because Wikipedia has rules about manufacturers putting in an article about their own stuff. I would be fine with Mod54, et al, putting in pages about their products. Wikipedia also wants things in a certain format, etc.

Then when someone asks a basic question, then we can point them to the wiki pages.

[Brian Sims]

My new wife is a mentor on the physics forum. The forum includes members who are top of their field. During the nuclear melt-down following the earthquake in Japan, many news papers were quoting the physics forum for latest opinions on what was going on. Even with this incredible talent pool, the forum's number one objective is helping physics student with their homework.

Perhaps on a more humble scale, this forum includes members who are top of the field of large format photography. Given the frequency of our rants about the decline of our medium, perhaps educating and supporting students and new practitioners of large format photography should be our number one objective. If we made it an explicit part of our mission there might be some new ways to organize ourselves to provide that kind of support.

[bob carnie]

I have learned much from this site, and its members. I would like to point out two in paticular. Sandy King and Ian Grant , both have helped me on technical details in different processes and have been very generous and open to any stupid question I ask.

[thomasfallon]

absolutely!

I wish I could remember how stupid I used to be in the beginning but I have blocked such painful memories!

I wish I could remember how stupid I am now, but I have blocked such painful memories.

[Heroique]

...I do not mind answering the same questions here.

You are a better person than most of us. As for the greater number here, and please count me among them, it’s incredibly mind-numbing – let’s add exasperating – to help beginners over and over and over and over. They really do seem to form a never-ending stream. Where do they keep coming from? When will it finally end? If someone could just stop the madness at the source – and this appears to be one of the great failings of teaching today – the rest of us could finally get on w/o the same, basic, unending, infuriating questions. I sometimes dream of a better world w/o the repetitive (and apparently eternal) interference of the beginner. It would be a world allowing many of us to be so much further along. Just think of the mastery we could achieve.

-----
A thanks to the late forum member Ted Harris, a patient master who helped this impatient beginner understand the art and craft of scanning film. The best thing about his posts are that they allow him to live on for both the beginners who will join the forum after his departure, and the veterans who knew him.

[polyglot]

This brings up something that I think would be good: a LF wiki. I know that these are relatively easy to set up, and I and my team at work edit these for documentation and communication. I looked at Wikipedia, but I'm of two minds about getting involved with that.

The reason for a wiki specific to this site is because Wikipedia has rules about manufacturers putting in an article about their own stuff. I would be fine with Mod54, et al, putting in pages about their products. Wikipedia also wants things in a certain format, etc.

Then when someone asks a basic question, then we can point them to the wiki pages.

I setup my FAQ with this intention, that it could/should be editable by the community. The problem is that within a week it was completely overrun with spam and I had to disable public logins and it took me about two weeks to find all the damage.

If someone well-known here wants edit rights to my FAQ, please tell me and I will send you a login. The more experience we can point at it, the better. It currently has no LF section because I didn't want to duplicate all the resources on the LF home page.

[John Olsen]

That film cooler at Glazers isn't going to be full of goodies for me unless there's an endless stream of new suckers. So, bring 'em on and make sure they've all got good credit cards.

[ROL]

But then I realize that in the old days before the digital tsunami most people were moving up from small or medium format (like I did) and probably had a fair amount of experience with film, exposure etc. before attempting LF. Now however many people moving up to LF have little or no film experience and are taking the mighty leap into the unknown to LF. Its a totally different world.

Indeed. Trying to help those unfamiliar with the film world, which correspondingly may also be a "younger" generation – with all that may imply, has become problematic. It is for this reason that I no longer contribute over at APUG. Too many unpredictable, uncalled for, personal attacks based only on great ignorance and lack of patience for the rigors of wet work and presentation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

FWIW, it is for that reason, as well as explaining my work to potential buyers, that I began writing technique articles on my site. The side benefit, be that as it may, is that I can often link directly to them within forum posts, thus avoiding deadly reems of text on redundant subjects (not that that's stopped anyone else :eek:).



...and I ain't no old–timer neither, gramps.

[Keith Fleming]

My contribution to this discussion flows from that of John Olsen over on Whidbey Island. I live just across from Whidbey, on Admiralty Inlet (the entrance to Puget Sound) in Port Townsend, a beautiful old Victorian-era seaport, and a top tourist destination in Western Washington. Water Street downtown has numerous good restaurants and shops I enjoy patronizing. Those establishments can afford to stay open all year round only because of tourist dollars. So I am always ready to smile while stopping my car for visitors in the crosswalks, though I admit I am sometimes murmuring, “Spend your money in town, please.” I benefit from our visitors each time I eat out during the fall and winter months.

The more new people entering large format, the better off I am. And the better off all of us are. For that reason, I applaud those of you who graciously answer the questions of new forum members. Thank you for making new members feel welcome and part of our large format community.

Keith

[Ralph Barker]

I, too, am encouraged by the number of new folks taking up LF and participating on the LFPF. Coming from an all-digital, all-automatic background makes the learning curve all the more steep for them. So, collective patience is warranted.

An LF-specific Wiki would be a good idea, but would require yet another dedicated group of people to start it and maintain it. But, the articles on the LF Home Page (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/), linked at the top of the pages, can serve much the same purpose.

Newcomers might also benefit from recognizing that forums like this are rather "old school" compared to more modern forms of social media, and have been structured to "archive" common information in articles like those on the home page, as well as in previous threads. The tendency, however, is to "Tweet" the questions anew.

[imagedowser]

If there were a way to encourage everyone new to the forum to read, completely, the introduction page at least once would be a very good start. All us older guys and gals already know "all education is self education". The frustration for me is when it's apparent some questioner hasn't even begun to search for the answer for themselves and want someone to spoon feed them, it's tempting to just give whats asked for.....but what's best for them,is to help THEM find the answer. Tell them where to look and what to read. When searching for information the background within which they find it also becomes part of there general knowledge base on the subject, all this "stuff" we brush up against begins to form a landscape of photographic understanding. If you just want that one bit of information to use as solving one problem, you end up not knowing how it fits into the generalized "landscape".

[Michael Graves]

My patience isn't taxed by new members asking seemingly simple questions. Those are the ones I can actually answer! :o

I lose patience with the jerk who has to pass as many cars as he can before crowding someone else out to take a freeway exit.

[Greg Miller]

My patience isn't taxed by new members asking seemingly simple questions. Those are the ones I can actually answer! :o

I lose patience with the jerk who has to pass as many cars as he can before crowding someone else out to take a freeway exit.

But i was in a hurry. I swear! ;)

[Leigh]

...it’s incredibly mind-numbing – let’s add exasperating – to help beginners over and over and over and over. They really do seem to form a never-ending stream. Where do they keep coming from? When will it finally end?
It will only get worse.

We're seeing the consequences of the 'net generation.

People think they can ask a question on a forum, get an answer, and instantly become an expert on the subject.

The concept of studying a subject on one's own, by reading books and articles, is completely foreign to
the music video types who want instant gratification.

- Leigh

[Nathan Potter]

It will only get worse.

The concept of studying a subject on one's own, by reading books and articles, is completely foreign to
the music video types who want instant gratification.

- Leigh

Precisely. I see this all the time in mentoring engineering students. It is a form of instant gratification, often seeking simple solutions to complex problems.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Leigh]

I lose patience with the jerk who has to pass as many cars as he can before crowding someone else out to take a freeway exit.
But I'm late... I'm late... for a very important date. :D

- Leigh

[36cm2]

Now however many people moving up to LF have little or no film experience and are taking the mighty leap into the unknown to LF. Its a totally different world.

This shouldn't be surprising. Imagine a digital photographer who's never used film and is looking for an edge. They've probably heard repeatedly from their peers (and the Interweb) that 35mm was eclipsed by digital years ago, MF equates to a prosumer digital package, 4x5 a pro digital package and 8x10 still blows away digital. It must seem quite unattractive to them to start with a format that allegedly (and I stress allegedly) is less capable than today's digital technology. While this way of thinking misses so many important aspects of film photography in focusing exclusively on resolution, I'm still sure that many jump straight to 4x5 and 8x10 to quickly distinguish themselves in a crowded field.

Please know that I don't want to offend any newbies out there. I'm not saying you have to start with 35mm, but there are a lot of benefits from progressing up the chain. You'll also find that a lot of people find their sweet spot back down the chain once they've scaled to the top.

Leo

[36cm2]

It will only get worse.

We're seeing the consequences of the 'net generation.

People think they can ask a question on a forum, get an answer, and instantly become an expert on the subject.

The concept of studying a subject on one's own, by reading books and articles, is completely foreign to
the music video types who want instant gratification.

- Leigh


Leigh, I respect your perspective a lot, but I totally disagree with this. I think it's silly to assume that people wishing to learn won't ask questions in a forum with thousands of years of experience among its members. I don't think it's about instant gratification. I think it's about getting incredible and varied perspective from very experienced people. It's also a way to interact in a community, which has its own appeal. Yes, there are a lot of people that should hit some books first, but those people always existed - they just used to annoy you at the photo shop every once in a while instead of online all the time.

Leo

[gliderbee]

absolutely!

I wish I could remember how stupid I used to be in the beginning but I have blocked such painful memories!

I only have to re-read my own posts from the beginning of my LF-times, here and on apug, to get my toes curl up and realize how much help I got from people with more patience than I'll probably ever have!

Stefan

[Greg Miller]

This shouldn't be surprising. Imagine a digital photographer who's never used film and is looking for an edge. They've probably heard repeatedly from their peers (and the Interweb) that 35mm was eclipsed by digital years ago, MF equates to a prosumer digital package, 4x5 a pro digital package and 8x10 still blows away digital. It must seem quite unattractive to them to start with a format that allegedly (and I stress allegedly) is less capable than today's digital technology. While this way of thinking misses so many important aspects of film photography in focusing exclusively on resolution, I'm still sure that many jump straight to 4x5 and 8x10 to quickly distinguish themselves in a crowded field.

Please know that I don't want to offend any newbies out there. I'm not saying you have to start with 35mm, but there are a lot of benefits from progressing up the chain. You'll also find that a lot of people find their sweet spot back down the chain once they've scaled to the top.

Leo

If that is what is happening, I think it is a huge mistake. The people hiring photographers want 2 things:

1) A photographer who can consistently deliver quality images on time, on budget, and meeting the AD's or client's descriptions of the desired photos
2) A photographer who has a unique vision

The people hiring photographers generally don't care about what medium is used as long as those 2 criteria are met.

[Kirk Gittings]

Imagine a digital photographer who's never used film and is looking for an edge.

The only real edge is vision. Film can only give one a unique look or signature or sales pitch.

[36cm2]

I totally agree with both of you, but these are things you learn with time and experience.

[PrabuVenkat]

+1 for wiki suggestion.

While I agree completely to the fact that the 'net has brought a new breed of enthusiasts' (with whatever interests - professional/enthusiast/curiosity/become-expert-by-asking-a-question/...) - except for a few "parameters", it is true of "any human times". A few years down the line, we will have another entirely different breed.

Patience is the most commendable alternative to "continuously keeping the forum/site spruced-up for the times" or the "these new-comers are so different" attitude. Also, I think even very few genuine additions to the troupe might still really be worth all the effort in keeping it all going !

[in my very humble opinion (being very much aware that I have "hardly have begun to contribute" or shown any promise at all!)].

;-p r a b u!
(as confused a soul as you could get, but just not a passer-by, hopefully!)

[jb7]

Firstly, thanks to everyone who ever helped me here, that's a lot of people, and the vast majority of those were responding to threads in which I had absolutely no involvement. Perhaps all the questions have been asked already, but sometimes you can learn something from a good response to a seemingly obvious newbie question, though I only speak for myself, not for those who evidently know it all.

Bring on the young people, they're the future. Large Format runs the risk of becoming an anachronistic backwater of photography without the continued involvement of new generations.

I don't ask a lot of questions myself, or answer many questions for novices, but those who choose to display their impatience by responding to an enquiry with the advice

- Use Google - or
- use the search function - (or something equally unhelpful or impatient or condescending or unfriendly)

give the impression that these people are wasting their time. How sad is that?
The only people wasting their time are the ironically challenged intemperate ones who can't remember what it was like to be young.

If you don't feel like answering a question, then don't bother, simple as that. If the obviousness of the answer offends you, then count to ten, and move on. Don't take it personally.

One day, all these newbies will be grumpy old curmudgeons too...
Maybe Generation Z will have Google hardwired to their frontal lobe.

By the way, the search function on this site is really very poor...

[Leigh]

By the way, the search function on this site is really very poor...
Use Google

site:largeformatphotography.info followed by the desired search term(s)

- Leigh

[jnantz]

i think it is great that this site is growing in membership,
and the scope of this site is broader than it was when it was on lusenet.

it is good to have an open door policy !


The only real edge is vision. Film can only give one a unique look or signature or sales pitch.

you can say THAT again !


john

[jb7]

Thanks Leigh-

[TXFZ1]

My experience is people ask questions but then do not want to hear the answer or like the answer given. It is not the asking of the question that is the issue, it's the listening to the answer and trying to understand how the answer is applied. I rarely will answer a question on the beebs anymore as it always seems to denigrate to someone with a little bit of knowledge feels this makes them an expert on the subject.

Some people do not ask questions on the beebs to find an answer, they want confirmation their initial thought is correct.

David

[Leigh]

Some people do not ask questions on the beebs to find an answer, they want confirmation their initial thought is correct.
I would probably agree if I knew what a beeb was. Never heard that term before.

- Leigh

[TXFZ1]

Beeb...bbs, internet, intertubes, Al Gore invention or gift to the world, cyberspace.

David

[Leigh]

OK. Never heard the term before.

I've only been doing this internet thing for about 35 years, so I probably missed it.

- Leigh

[welly]

Leigh, I respect your perspective a lot, but I totally disagree with this. I think it's silly to assume that people wishing to learn won't ask questions in a forum with thousands of years of experience among its members. I don't think it's about instant gratification. I think it's about getting incredible and varied perspective from very experienced people. It's also a way to interact in a community, which has its own appeal. Yes, there are a lot of people that should hit some books first, but those people always existed - they just used to annoy you at the photo shop every once in a while instead of online all the time.

Leo

Came here to say the same thing. In one breath people are welcoming new large format photographers but in the next breath it's "get off my lawn!".

I'm not saying new photographers shouldn't be reading books and learnt the hard way but there's a wealth of knowledge on forums like this that apparently most people are willing to share. But then you get old curmudgeons moaning as you describe. You can't have it both ways.

As someone in their 3rd or 4th year of large format photography, and essentially 3rd of 4th year of film photography, this forum has been essential to my learning. There has been absolutely no instant gratification since I got into this game. Instant gratification is a contradiction in large format photography. It simply will never happen.

[Leigh]

But then you get old curmudgeons moaning as you describe.
Since that was obviously aimed at me, a rebuttal is in order.

My earlier post that elicited these nonsense responses was describing a particular class of people
who can be found on this and every other internet forum.

It was not a description of all newcomers by any means, only a certain group thereof.

If you'll review my numerous posts on this forum you'll see that I go out of my way to answer
newbie questions, often with detailed explanations. Newbies are always welcome.

But this is not answers.com. Some people come on here with the idea that we should drop
what we're doing and respond to their queries instantly.

It's that "entitlement" attitude that I find offensive, suggesting that we're nothing but servants.

This is very much confined to the younger age groups.
A recent news report said that HR managers are concerned that applicants feel "entitled" to a job.

- Leigh

[welly]

Since that was obviously aimed at me, a rebuttal is in order.

My earlier post that elicited these nonsense responses was describing a particular class of people
who can be found on this and every other internet forum.

It was not a description of all newcomers by any means, only a certain group thereof.

If you'll review my numerous posts on this forum you'll see that I go out of my way to answer
newbie questions, often with detailed explanations. Newbies are always welcome.

But this is not answers.com. Some people come on here with the idea that we should drop
what we're doing and respond to their queries instantly.

It's that "entitlement" attitude that I find offensive, suggesting that we're nothing but servants.
This is very much confined to the younger age groups.
A recent news report pointed out how HR managers are concerned that applicants feel "entitled" to a job.

- Leigh

You're one of the most knowledgeable and helpful people on this forum, Leigh. But if you can point me to an example of one of these people you describe on this forum, I'll eat my hat.

[Leigh]

Welly,

There's an active thread from a newbie who thinks he should have been given instant access to the Classifieds
rather than waiting 30 days like everybody else. Perfect example of the "entitlement" attitude I described.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?101767-for-sale-section-Yes-I-know-why-I-can-t-see-it-I-think-its-stupid-though&p=1008487

You obviously need your hat. The sun is awfully bright in Oz. :D

Munch munch. :eek:

- Leigh

[redshift]

Every forum I've ever been on has this same thread, different subjects but the same sentiments.

At times I have been the expert tired of answering the same question. I stopped answering and let the upcoming expert generation provide the answer. After watching the discussion I could see if the newbie was serious. If the information he was getting was good I'd let it slide. If additional knowledge was needed I could help with the details. This way I avoided the burden of rewriting the basic lessons but was still able to add to a serious inquiry.

[mandoman7]

From my observation there seems to be a workable ratio between those who have questions and those who feel inclined to answer them. In fact, there seems to be a lot of members who would rather talk about their equipment than use it, so its a good match, seemingly. Not everyone can be a great artist, I guess, so why not enjoy yourself?

As to the health of the art photo industry I would say that the instant expert phenomenon is 1.definitely true, and 2. it is what it is. People are succeeding with attitude and little else in various mediums these days, but what can you do? Lately, I've tried to divert my frustration by just going out to the coast and standing by the edge of the water, with some camera equipment, of course. I was out there last Tuesday (45 min drive) and was composing a shot when I realized there were some whales playing around about 200 yds. off shore. I felt like I was connected to a good energy for a change...

[Jac@stafford.net]

Speaking to my fellow old timers here. I find my patience button being pushed more frequently recently and my reservoir gets lower the older I get. [...]

Kirk, the underlying motive for your occasional impatience might be due to an angst concerning becoming older. I cannot speak of your motive, but that is what I finally found mine to come from. I miss the learning curve, in part because because I love to learn, so when I find little to learn and repeats of the same old questions, despair arises but less each time.

[Leigh]

It's like playing chess.

When you start winning all the time it's no longer fun. You're not learning, you're teaching.

- Leigh

[Roger Cole]

Use Google

site:largeformatphotography.info followed by the desired search term(s)

- Leigh

But then even that doesn't give the view within the forum. The info may be there, but if you want to necro-post and ask an additional question it takes a lot more effort going to the forum, although it does make it possible.

Probably not a bad thing all in all, but it's not exactly a complete substitute for a vBulletin search function that doesn't suck. I'm on several vBulletin based sites and the search function is one thing that seems to get worse the later version one moves to.

[Kirk Gittings]

Kirk, the underlying motive for your occasional impatience might be due to an angst concerning becoming older. I cannot speak of your motive, but that is what I finally found mine to come from. I miss the learning curve, in part because because I love to learn, so when I find little to learn and repeats of the same old questions, despair arises but less each time.

Very posible. I haven't found much to sing about in this aging body except my accumulating real life experience. I'm hoping they come up with a body transplant sometime in the next 15 years.

[Preston]

Just yesterday I was doing some photography in Columbia with my Chamonix. A gentleman walked up and was very curious about my camera. He said he was currently shooting MF and is seriously considering a 4x5 field camera. I gave him a few suggestions of cameras and equipment suppliers, along with a suggestion to register here and ask some questions. He was very enthusiastic.

I suggested that, when he posts, that he give us an idea of the kinds of photographs he wants to make, a bit about his experience, whether color or B&W, his budget, etc..

After our conversation, and as I was packing up, I thought of this thread and about ways in which we could get new folks to help us help them. So, here's my idea: Create a 'sticky' post in the "Cameras and Accessories" forum that guides the new folks to ask specific questions about their goals and needs, while also giving us an idea of their level of experience with film-based photography.

Any thoughts on this idea?

--P

[Vaughn]

Recently I described the practice of flashing photo paper, it might have been here or on APUG. I spent a bit of time on it, avoiding jargon and technical terms (such things as curves, toes, etc) that would confuse people unfamiliar with the concepts. I did as much for myself as for the person asking the question. Trying to write clearly and concisely (not saying I succeeded!) requires one to think intensely on the subject. And sometimes my knowledge is faulty, contaminated by old wives tales and mumbo-jumbo from years of photography. So it is good to get corrected so I don't keep passing on incorrect information (not that I always give up dearly held beliefs easily!)

I run a university teaching darkroom and have a cadre of students that volunteer to keep it open. One enticement I have to get volunteers is the idea that teaching and helping others helps one to learn also (the other big carrot is getting a key to the darkroom!) One-on-one, I help beginning to advance students understand concepts and techniques that either their instructor did not cover, or that went over the students' heads in the classroom.

I enjoy teaching and get as much out of it as I put into it. I enjoy giving workshops to the point I can forget to eat for a couple of days and sleep is optional. When I have shows, I tend to include an educational element in it.

So I guess that is why I like this forum so much. It is basically an educational endeavor.

[Kirk Gittings]

Vaughn, how long have you been doing that? Sounds very rewarding. I've been teaching pretty regular part time at the university level for about 25 years between the University of New Mexico, the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and starting July also at the Santa Fe University of Art and Design. It is one of the more fulfilling things I do and many long term good friends have come out of those classes. In all honesty I make a lot more money doing photography as opposed to teaching it but I find it immensely rewarding in its own way. so in a very real financial way it is a distraction from making a living, but almost like a working vacation and I love it.

[Vaughn]

Well, I volunteered as a lab assistant at the same darkroom for 14 years (4 years as a student, and 10 years by taking 1 unit of independent study to have darkroom access) and then I have worked as the lab technician there for the past 22 years.

But, alas, all good things must come to an end. We have had a take-over in the photo area by a new instructor who does not see the value of the darkroom, or more accurately, sees a route to control and power through diminishing those connected to the darkroom and pushing her digital agenda. So it goes. It has been a most interesting and rewarding run. We'll see how much longer I can hang on. And there is a possibility that I can teach a couple of photo classes at the local community college.

[Kirk Gittings]

That sucks but it is the ongoing tsunami. At both SAIC and SFUAD they either have or are shortly getting rid of their color darkrooms in favor of inkjet and only b&w survives.

[Tin Can]

Thanks Leigh,

Best suggestion so far...

I am not new to film, but new to LF and returning to film.

My pet peeve is searching forums, finding old stories with no explanations, except for broken links!

Repetition is necessary, no matter how boring.

We need a WIKI.


Use Google

site:largeformatphotography.info followed by the desired search term(s)

- Leigh

[Leigh]

It's amazing how much you learn by teaching.

- Leigh