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cleber figueiredo
17-Mar-2013, 04:30
hi there, all of you.

normally I'm only reading the posts here on the forums, but today there is something I want to share with you and get a bit of feedback on.

I'm working with large format since 2009, and using the "taco method" ever since to develop my B&W. the fact is that I cannot blame the method for anything - it never ruined any photo of mine. but it just doesn't feels right, if you know what I mean...

having previously owned several stainless steel tanks because of 135 and 120 film processing, it never interested me to buy another tank of another system. plus, processing you own film is by no means a big thing in Brazil, and everything you want has to come from abroad, which means expensive shipping plus 60% tax customs.

there really isn't any other way for people using metal tanks, is there? MOD54 is a great product on a decent price, but it is for patterson tanks only.

so... this thing about 3d printing has got me a bug in the last couple of months, and I ended up designing something loosely based on the old nikor tank. you can check it out on http://www.sculpteo.com/en/design/8-sheet-4x5-film-holder/xforbTq8?basket=1&noclickredirect=1.

I have just finished this design and uploaded it to this website so, some acknowledgements:
1. this is a very expensive price to me;
2. I have never tried this design, but for me it seems to work as a concept;
3. I'm not sure if the printed plastic would survive some of our corrosive chemicals;

well, that's basically it. I would appreciate if you could just have a look at it and let me know what you think.

all the best,

cleber

1750Shooter
17-Mar-2013, 05:52
Very cool. I like the design! It's a bit spendy, but considering their equipment costs, I can see it. Could this be expanded for 5x7?

Kevin J. Kolosky
17-Mar-2013, 07:46
I think it looks great, but I doubt you would get many people to spend $175 on it.

tigger_six
17-Mar-2013, 13:31
I would be afraid that the middle brace can cause uneven development.

RawheaD
17-Mar-2013, 15:07
Heh, and I was thinking of doing something very similar; just hadn't gotten around to it.

Is it the first time you've designed something for 3D printing?

The cost of the model is directly proportionate with the amount of material used (i.e., mass of the model), so what you want to do is to figure out all sorts of ways to cut down on the material amount, while sacrificing structural integrity as little as possible.

Also, if I remember correctly, isn't the minimum wall thickness for the materials at Sculpteo some ridiculously large number (like 3mm)?

Shapeways's "White/Black Strong & Flexible" material is availablve from 0.7mm wall thickness, which should cut down on your costs quite a bit.

If you need thicker, consider where you can go and punch out some holes while maintaining the basic function and durability of a member.

I designed a filter holder for Kodak Aero Ektar, and figured I don't really *need* a lot of the material for my purposes… so I punched out some holes, and it's still quite sturdy, and I was able to cut down on the printing cost by around 35%.

http://www.shapeways.com/model/892285/ae-filter-holder-v5.html?li=my-models


I bet I could make the holes a bit larger and space them a bit tighter and knock off another 10% in costs without really sacrificing sturdiness :-)

cleber figueiredo
17-Mar-2013, 17:50
thanks for the feedback!

let me try and answer each one.

1750Shoote: I think this concept would be applicable to 5x7. I'm only afraid that the film will be too tight inside the model, to a point where it would start to compromise the flow of chemicals. we would have to test...

tigger_six: that is a valid point, and I wonder if you actually need that middle brace, anyway. I thought about it just in order to prevent the film to bend and scape the upper and lower braces, when inserting it. but, perhaps, you wouldn't need it...

RawheaD: no, I have never printed anything in 3d. I have those ideas and just keep imagining them getting real, somehow. I tried some other design, more like the MOD54, but never took it too seriously (http://www.sculpteo.com/en/design/untitled-2-1/ARbEFa4V?basket=1&noclickredirect=1). I cannot remember reading anything technical at Sculpteo about wall sizes. but I used 1.5mm walls, because it looked enough when looking at my ruler. very technical, right?

just out of curiosity I have uploaded the model to Shapeways, and already the price went down to $92. that's quite a rebate, isn't it? http://shpws.me/nv6f

it is complicated, never having felt in my hands how the material is like. I have absolutely no idea on how it behaves, and where it could have less mass.

maybe one day I will just take the plunge and order it, as a prototype on where to work from.

Light Guru
17-Mar-2013, 21:58
I'm curious as to what keeps the film from coming out. The Nikkor 4x5 tank has a band that goes around the outside that keeps the film in.

Also what is wrong the the mod54 and a Pearson tank. It's clearly a cheeper option then paying someone to 3d print your design.

tigger_six
18-Mar-2013, 00:49
It's clearly a cheeper option then paying someone to 3d print your design.

Well some people might be able to print them themselves. I have access to a 3d printer, although I've never used it.

RawheaD
18-Mar-2013, 01:08
Like I said, punching holes wherever you can is a start. Many of your vertical columns seem quite wide. Do they need to be? (I remember the Nikor ones to have fairly narrow vertical columns.

If the width is and important functional factor, then you can keep the general form, then cut out square holes (e.g., 1cm^2 @ 1cm intervals) in all the columns. The material is going to be strong enough that even if you "hollow out" a good 30-40% of the materials, they're gonna keep the shape.

Also, 1.5 mm is unnecessarily thick. My Aero-Ektar filter adapter is using a wall thickness of 1 mm. By changing your wall thickness from 1.5 to 1 mm, you are going to slash the printing cost by 1/3.

I think if you could bring the price of this down to the $50-60 range, and of course, if it turns out to be functionally and structurally sound, you'll have quite a few purchasers :-)

coisasdavida
18-Mar-2013, 06:32
I would be afraid that the middle brace can cause uneven development.

+1

Light Guru
18-Mar-2013, 07:55
Well some people might be able to print them themselves. I have access to a 3d printer, although I've never used it.

Yea so many people have 3d printers just sitting around.

Steve Smith
18-Mar-2013, 13:53
Heh, and I was thinking of doing something very similar; just hadn't gotten around to it.

Me too. I was going to CNC route 3mm sheets of Perspex (Plexiglass).

I have already made a version of the MOD 54 holder but I think it would be better to wind the films onto a spiral one at a time..


Steve

RawheaD
18-Mar-2013, 13:59
Yea so many people have 3d printers just sitting around.


I'm sure you meant that to be sarcastic, but you might be surprised at just exactly how accessible they are these days. First, many public schools now have 3D printers, which are made available to the public for a small fee if you and/or your child are in the district. Other public facilities I'm sure will follow suit. Furthermore, there are now *many* options for cheap, home-use 3D printers on, or soon-to-be-on the market. The cheapest 3D printer that you can get your hands on on Kickstarter, for example, is around 5-600USD.

Many people view 2013 as *the* year that 3D printing is coming down to the masses (and I agree) and so ideas like this are not premature, and I actually think we should be seeing more of it.

cleber figueiredo
18-Mar-2013, 15:42
on what keeps the film in place:
91473

91474

and, on the other end:
91475

thanks, people! this is very nice to hear. I did not imagined it would cause half this movement.

RawheaD
18-Mar-2013, 16:26
Me too. I was going to CNC route 3mm sheets of Perspex (Plexiglass).

I have already made a version of the MOD 54 holder but I think it would be better to wind the films onto a spiral one at a time..


Steve


See, wish I had access to a CNC (LOL). But you know what, I think this 3D printing thing is da shite. It's going to replace CNCing in many areas in the next 5-10 years. Instead of investing in the money, space, and training to do CNCing (which I have no means of doing anyway), I'm going to jump head first into 3DP.

BTW, I love your 6x12 camera page (fell in love the first time i saw it months ago). So much so that I'm building a 6x12 camera... but I'm a wimp, i'm asking a friend to do it for me (with a CNC, of course :D).

Light Guru
18-Mar-2013, 19:17
on what keeps the film in place:
91473

91474

and, on the other end:
91475

thanks, people! this is very nice to hear. I did not imagined it would cause half this movement.

Ah I missed the notch you have at the outer end.

It's a nice design but the price is just way to high. If you could bring the price down comparable to the mod54 then I could see it as a nice alternative.

Steve Smith
19-Mar-2013, 01:12
See, wish I had access to a CNC (LOL). But you know what, I think this 3D printing thing is da shite. It's going to replace CNCing in many areas in the next 5-10 years.

I don't think it will replace it as 3D printed material doesn't have the strength of a machined solid piece but it is capable of some very intricate detail.

At a trade show last month a company was showing their 3D printers and they had made what initially looked like ordinary chess pieces, but if you picked them up you could look through tiny windows and see that inside they had detailed furniture and a spiral staircase and even the joints in the brickwork were visible.

The CNC router I use is at work. It's quite a big machine intended for PCB manufacture. I'm using it to make parts for my own desk top CNC router.


Steve.

RawheaD
19-Mar-2013, 02:09
I don't think it will replace it as 3D printed material doesn't have the strength of a machined solid piece but it is capable of some very intricate detail.


I agree it won't replace it all, especially not immediately, but I think it'll replace it in many areas. Areas where a machined piece really didn't require the strength to begin with, but that people relied on CNCing because it would've been cost-prohibitive to cast it but also required intricacy that couldn't be achieved in any other way.


I'm using it to make parts for my own desk top CNC router.

That's too cool :D


Here's my buddy's workshop who's making my 6x12 cam:

https://twitter.com/RawheaD/status/297575817200955392/photo/1

tigger_six
19-Mar-2013, 03:13
I'm sure you meant that to be sarcastic, but you might be surprised at just exactly how accessible they are these days. First, many public schools now have 3D printers, which are made available to the public for a small fee if you and/or your child are in the district. Other public facilities I'm sure will follow suit. Furthermore, there are now *many* options for cheap, home-use 3D printers on, or soon-to-be-on the market. The cheapest 3D printer that you can get your hands on on Kickstarter, for example, is around 5-600USD.

Many people view 2013 as *the* year that 3D printing is coming down to the masses (and I agree) and so ideas like this are not premature, and I actually think we should be seeing more of it.

Absolutely. Many universities or technology companies will have one and more often than not it is seriously under-used. People buy it but then they quickly run out of things to print.

Drew Bedo
21-Mar-2013, 18:51
I've got two hard rubber tanks with lids and ss 8x10 film hangers you can have for $120 plus shipping.

augied
28-Jun-2013, 10:22
I hope I'm not reviving a dead topic here.

Has anyone tested this design yet? I'm trying to decide between the Mod54, Nikor, and Jobo reels. If this works as well as it should in theory, it may go to the top of my list.

cleber figueiredo
28-Jun-2013, 16:16
Hi there,

There was one courageous gentleman that tested the first design. Results were not very good, I'm afraid.

Since then I redesigned it, and the mkII is probably the one you will be able to see on the link.

As far as I know, nobody tested it yet.

I'm also working on a different approach to the same project, but cannot show anything by now.

Anyway, it is good to see some interest on this idea. Thanks for that!

All the best,

Cleber

augied
28-Jun-2013, 16:48
Great to hear that you're still working on this. If I had the courage (and the money) I would definitely test it out.

I'll probably go with one of the other options for now, but I'm very interested in how this project turns out and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Good luck,

Augie