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pudentaineLf
14-Mar-2013, 21:21
Hi Guys,
Did I make a mistake buying a Navy surplus Speed Graphic 4 x 5 for $52. It comes with original case, a score of film holders and a flash!! But no lens, lens boards or shutter. I like projects and I've been wanting a 4 x 5 but couldn't afford it but I started looking at prices for lenses and shutter & I began to get discouraged and think I've made a mistake. I'm sure prices would be lower at a photography swap meet than on Ebay but I don't even know how to begin. Well that's not really true, I'm here and I'm told there are lots of DYI tutorials here. I guess I'm just looking to talk to some of you people that have actually done a project like this. I'm open to any kind of direction, advice, opinions or anything else that is informative or encouraging. I'd like to know what you think.
-Thanks, Thomas

RawheaD
14-Mar-2013, 21:50
$50 for that can never be a mistake :D

Vaughn
14-Mar-2013, 22:14
No shutter? Is the curtain missing?

In any case, as is, it makes for a great pinhole camera!

Jody_S
14-Mar-2013, 22:16
Sweet camera, I use one very similar. You can replace the original lens & board for under $100 off fleabay, if you're patient. One 127mm Ektar w/board went for $40.50 on Feb 3rd.

Does the focal plane shutter work?

Jim Jones
15-Mar-2013, 07:00
You got a bargain. I'd like to make a few mistakes like that! Lens boards for your Anniversary model can be sawn and milled with basic woodworking tools from 1/4" plywood or MDF, or built up from two pieces of 1/8" plywood or MDF. While the original lens may have been a 127mm Kodak Ektar or similar lens, photographers often substituted something else. With the focal plane shutter, even enlarging lenses can be used. These Graphics are also convenient for pinhole photography, and Worldwide Pinhole Photography Day www.wppd.org/ is next month. Some people like the effect of magnifying lenses. Lenses from the largest of old folding cameras cover 4x5 film, but may be more valuable gathering dust on a shelf than harvesting photons on film. Much information on these cameras is available on www.graflex.org (www.graflex.org)and in Graphic Graflex Photography by Morgan & Lester. The 8th edition covers the latest variations of the Anniversary model, although earlier editions should suffice.

E. von Hoegh
15-Mar-2013, 07:06
Hi Guys,
Did I make a mistake buying a Navy surplus Speed Graphic 4 x 5 for $52. It comes with original case, a score of film holders and a flash!! But no lens, lens boards or shutter. I like projects and I've been wanting a 4 x 5 but couldn't afford it but I started looking at prices for lenses and shutter & I began to get discouraged and think I've made a mistake. I'm sure prices would be lower at a photography swap meet than on Ebay but I don't even know how to begin. Well that's not really true, I'm here and I'm told there are lots of DYI tutorials here. I guess I'm just looking to talk to some of you people that have actually done a project like this. I'm open to any kind of direction, advice, opinions or anything else that is informative or encouraging. I'd like to know what you think.
-Thanks, Thomas

You did very well. You could pick up a lens such as a convertible Symmar for under $150 with moderate luck, the question is which lens?

This may help - http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

coisasdavida
15-Mar-2013, 07:14
I see a Grafmatic in the case. I've seen them sell here for anything between $75 to $120 depending on the looks of it.
You could probably place a WTT and get the lens you need.

Jim C.
15-Mar-2013, 07:34
$52 ? I'd say that's a steal for what you have in that case.
As coisasdavida said the grafmatic holder ( 6 shots ) is a bonus if the septums are all there.
Check to see if the focal plane shutter is intact ( not dry and krinkly ) I think what you have is a
Anniversary Graphic and it may have a graflock back, press the 2 silver arms and slide the back off to check
the focal plane shutter. Just don't do what I did and test fire the focal plane shutter without checking it's condition :o

Besides, your flash is the coveted graflex flash handle used by ILM for Obi-wan's light saber, if you decide not
to do flash bulb photography toss it up on the 'bay and the fans will be all over it like white on rice !
You might even get back the price you paid for the whole lot.

E. von Hoegh
15-Mar-2013, 07:45
That Grafmatic is worth holding on to. Takes up a lot less space than holders, and if it's in good shape provides excellent film flatness.

Steven Tribe
15-Mar-2013, 08:08
Graflex.org is the place to go.

Brian C. Miller
15-Mar-2013, 09:09
But no lens, lens boards or shutter.

The first thing you need to do is check the bellows. In a dark room, extend the bellows all the way and shine a very bright light inside it. Check the corners for pinholes, and see if the back is light-tight with a film holder in it. Pinholes can be filled in with a bit of flexible paint, and there's lots of posts about how to do it. If the bellows are cracked or torn, then you can get a replacement for it.

While these were manufactured with a focal plane shutter, you'll need to see if it still operates. If the curtain material is still intact, then it can be cleaned and lubed. As for lensboard and lens, there's lots of those. If you are on a really tight budget, then you can easily trade the Grafmatic for a lens and shutter in excellent condition. Otherwise post a WTB in the For Sale section and see what you can get for a lensboard and a lens. The Wollensak lenses perform very well, but they don't have much for movements.

As far as an overall deal, you did very well, even if the camera was a heap of mildew. The various parts are worth over $52.

sun of sand
15-Mar-2013, 10:36
does he know about the focal shutter or is he saying there is no lens/in shutter combination

Even if torn you can fix the shutter curtain
Mine -SLR- had torn through at the slit stays in two places
some stitching of new thinnn material over the old and cement to make it all smooth
Has been fired hundreds of times -with and without film- and even out in the freezing cold all day twice.
works great

BrianShaw
15-Mar-2013, 13:44
Ya, I know what that uncertainty feels like. Went through it myself a few years ago when I bought a similar rig for $24. Mine came with a lens and some horrendously out-dated film. After using it a few years I invested in an overhaul of the leaf shutter... and now I feel even better about the whole deal.

jp
15-Mar-2013, 14:16
That's a good camera there if it's working. The focal plane shutter goes from 1/10 to 1/1000 which is more useful than the pacemaker's 1/30-1000 shutter. You can make lensboards for it on a table saw. If the built in shutter works, make a lens with a magnifying glass, a reinhold wollaston meniscus, or spend $100 for a nice used shutter'd 127-180mm range lens.

pudentaineLf
15-Mar-2013, 15:37
You got a bargain. I'd like to make a few mistakes like that! Lens boards for your Anniversary model can be sawn and milled with basic woodworking tools from 1/4" plywood or MDF, or built up from two pieces of 1/8" plywood or MDF. While the original lens may have been a 127mm Kodak Ektar or similar lens, photographers often substituted something else. With the focal plane shutter, even enlarging lenses can be used. These Graphics are also convenient for pinhole photography, and Worldwide Pinhole Photography Day www.wppd.org/ is next month. Some people like the effect of magnifying lenses. Lenses from the largest of old folding cameras cover 4x5 film, but may be more valuable gathering dust on a shelf than harvesting photons on film. Much information on these cameras is available on www.graflex.org (www.graflex.org)and in Graphic Graflex Photography by Morgan & Lester. The 8th edition covers the latest variations of the Anniversary model, although earlier editions should suffice.

Thanks, some one asked me if the curtain was gone, it is but that is used for the same purpose as a focal plane shutter?, Right?

pudentaineLf
15-Mar-2013, 15:38
That's a good camera there if it's working. The focal plane shutter goes from 1/10 to 1/1000 which is more useful than the pacemaker's 1/30-1000 shutter. You can make lensboards for it on a table saw. If the built in shutter works, make a lens with a magnifying glass, a reinhold wollaston meniscus, or spend $100 for a nice used shutter'd 127-180mm range lens.

Thanks, I'm getting some great advice!

pudentaineLf
15-Mar-2013, 15:40
Ya, I know what that uncertainty feels like. Went through it myself a few years ago when I bought a similar rig for $24. Mine came with a lens and some horrendously out-dated film. After using it a few years I invested in an overhaul of the leaf shutter... and now I feel even better about the whole deal.

Thanks for commiserating, sounds like you got your $24 worth and more, heh?

pudentaineLf
15-Mar-2013, 15:45
does he know about the focal shutter or is he saying there is no lens/in shutter combination

Even if torn you can fix the shutter curtain
Mine -SLR- had torn through at the slit stays in two places
some stitching of new thinnn material over the old and cement to make it all smooth
Has been fired hundreds of times -with and without film- and even out in the freezing cold all day twice.
works great

He's not sure....oop's (joking) I mean I'm not sure yet , it hasn't gotten here so I just have the photos.

Michael Cienfuegos
15-Mar-2013, 15:47
I made lens boards for my older Speed Graphic from 3/8" birch plywood from the hobby shop. I cut it on my table saw, drilled a hole for the lens and I was set. Cost for three lens boards was under $5.

pudentaineLf
15-Mar-2013, 19:11
whats the difference between the curtain and the shutter on the lens board?

Jim C.
15-Mar-2013, 20:37
Thanks, some one asked me if the curtain was gone, it is but that is used for the same purpose as a focal plane shutter?, Right?

Yes, the rear curtain is the focal plane shutter, best to wait till you get the camera and carefully check everything out.

The focal plane shutter will allow you to use lenses that don't have a shutter built in, such as barrel lenses, a shutter
on the lens board just means that a lens has a built in shutter.

Vaughn
15-Mar-2013, 20:42
The curtain shutter is nice for using lenses without shutters. I used a magnifying glass as a lens on a Speed Graphic (see below). They are called "Speeds" because the curtain shutter could work at 1/1000 sec -- faster than shutters in lenses.

pudentaineLf
23-Mar-2013, 02:31
Wow! Thanks for all the input everyone1 I got the camera in a few days ago. I have yo say I already own a Busch model C and I imagined I was getting a large version of this all be it Speed Graphic. Being new to large format having been taking it as the next step after medium format, I had no idea what a focal plan curtain was. When some of you asked if it was still on the camera I had no idea what you were talking about and planned to come back to ask about it when I had time. In the mean time I had been trying to buy a lens shutter combo over 127mm for this camera...then after messing with the camera and realizing what that black curtain in the back was really used for I realized I don't really need a shutter. If I have this right I have a magnificent shutter in this focal plane curtain. I think someone up in one of the reply posts mentioned I didn't need a shutter but it didn't register. This was a navy camera sold from the Treasure Island surplus when the base closed. I don't know if they all go this fast. I couldn't believe that this huge curtain goes up to 1/1000 speed. So for now I 'm just going to buy a lens, it's a "doppel anastigmal unofocal" 13.5 cm a nice clean lens that's in a old compur shutter that has seen better days for around $30, way cheaper than the $149 I was going to spend on a combo, so now all I need is a lens board and some sheet film and I should be able to test the camera. This one doesn't have a spring back but I still think I can shoot sheet film by taking the view box and glass off. I really would rather wait for a spring back but I wouldn't know where to get one, any ideas?

Jim C.
23-Mar-2013, 06:52
Having a focal plane shutter opens up a larger selection of lenses that don't have shutters, just be cautious of it, I guess depending on how it was stored and the production run of the curtain material some will deteriorate faster than others, I have an Anniversary Graphic that dates to 1945
and the shutter cloth is fine, but my RB graflex which is from the same time the curtain was crispy and I tore it checking it out.

sun of sand
23-Mar-2013, 18:50
you can take the back off or the little metal underneath and view the curtain condition
If there are lots of ridges in it it might be ready to go and you can tell if it's crispy and such just by winding
Light tight isn't as much an issue as the mirror blocks the film when put down for viewing

Get the directions for shutter operation through graflex.org. If it tears you may injure it more not knowing what's gone wrong. pretty self-explanatory but still

If it tears ..like my otherwise in good condition curtain did after about 20 or so actuations
You can fix it. I'm not sure if any tear straight through the middle of the cloth but mine were torn or tearing at the aperture slit metal stays ..they hold the shape of the slit.



Check the speeds. see if they're progressive throughout the range but I doubt they were ever all at stated speed ..30th AND 35th of a second? Probably some crossover somewhere i nthe range but still a large selection of speeds


Check through a static TV signal and digital camera for a better approximation of actual speeds
..or whatever shutter tester

Lots of sharp, coated process lenses for cheap and all these soft focus lenses and telephotos

I'm very glad I bought mine.

Dan Fromm
23-Mar-2013, 19:37
Light tight isn't as much an issue as the mirror blocks the film when put down for viewing

Mirror? Why doesn't my Speed Graphic have a mirror?

See the first post in this thread. He got a Speed Graphic, not a Graflex.

sun of sand
23-Mar-2013, 21:03
I notice my mistakes a few hours afterwards
usually while in the shower
Accounts for my having 7 children, I guess


I got this thread and a Graflex thread mixed up during my posting
He said Speed Graphic in his last post and ....8th baby


Why would someone want one withOUT a mirror?

Jim C.
24-Mar-2013, 07:42
I mentioned my graflex, so I may be part of the brain fart you had ;)

pudentaineLf
26-Mar-2013, 17:17
Your right it is self explanatory...but i don't remember seeing a mirror, is it readily visible, like I said early on this is a navy surplus speed graphic, so no telling what may be missing. I'll have to read the instructions and figure it out.. I am having fun. The curtain is in pretty good shape, it's not dry or cracked, it's very flexible, somewhat taunt but not as taunt as I thought it should have been, but maybe it needs to have a little slack, and thats all there is, a little. There are no tears, there are some ripples but the speed progresses and seems to be good. I don't know how to check the shutter speed and I was totally lost when someone said something about static on a TV, that went right over my head, lol! Oh, I am lost that was you.

I should get my lens any day...I can't wait, found a guy on ebay that will cut a custom hole for me & sell me the lens board for $10, thats great , I don't really have the setup to do it myself...still looking for a spring back, I mean a "graphic back" or a "graflock back" the camera I have has a back with the groove in it. I'm assuming I can change that if I want to a graphic or a graflok (I keep wanting to spell graflok with a ph...There's a gy at Pacific Rim customer service that told me what my groove back was called but I can't remember...oh yes, I just checked , it's called a graflex back. I know the grafomatic I have doesn't fit with that back....it came with the camera and when I put in a sheet film holder , it wasn't one in the box , it was some other that I bought real cheap on ebay. The 8 or so that came with the camera might be the right kind...that makes me want to get up and go check...brb..no they're all the newer graflock or graphic kind, the guy said the graflex type are hard to find...so another good reason to change to a spring back. (graphic or graflok) If anyone out there is switching to a graflok back and wants to sell their graphic back. I found a post where a guy was just hating the graphic back and so happy he could get rid of it, i got so happy thinking I'd ask him to sell it, I then noticed the post was dated 2008 or 09. I had followed it from a Google search on graphic backs for sale...






you can take the back off or the little metal underneath and view the curtain condition
If there are lots of ridges in it it might be ready to go and you can tell if it's crispy and such just by winding
Light tight isn't as much an issue as the mirror blocks the film when put down for viewing

Get the directions for shutter operation through graflex.org. If it tears you may injure it more not knowing what's gone wrong. pretty self-explanatory but still

If it tears ..like my otherwise in good condition curtain did after about 20 or so actuations
You can fix it. I'm not sure if any tear straight through the middle of the cloth but mine were torn or tearing at the aperture slit metal stays ..they hold the shape of the slit.



Check the speeds. see if they're progressive throughout the range but I doubt they were ever all at stated speed ..30th AND 35th of a second? Probably some crossover somewhere i nthe range but still a large selection of speeds


Check through a static TV signal and digital camera for a better approximation of actual speeds
..or whatever shutter tester

Lots of sharp, coated process lenses for cheap and all these soft focus lenses and telephotos

I'm very glad I bought mine.

pudentaineLf
26-Mar-2013, 17:19
Nice shots...it's hard to see the base detail but it looks like action, what was the shutter speed , or should I say the curtain speed?

pudentaineLf
26-Mar-2013, 17:20
Nice shots...it's hard to see the base detail but it looks like action, what was the shutter speed , or should I say the curtain speed?


The curtain shutter is nice for using lenses without shutters. I used a magnifying glass as a lens on a Speed Graphic (see below). They are called "Speeds" because the curtain shutter could work at 1/1000 sec -- faster than shutters in lenses.

pudentaineLf
27-Mar-2013, 15:33
That's cool about the light saber...I might sell it but to tell you the truth I'm the type of guy that even if I don't use bulb flash, which I can tell you now I probably won't, my goal while I own this is to try to hunt down every piece listed on the metal navy inventory sign that's on the case. I did that with this Polaroid 100 that I bought, it was just the camera and the case but I made the mistake of looking at a cardboard insert that came in the case and it was a photo of all the things that were included at the time it was new...then to make matters worse I looked at the inside roof of the lid and all these elastic bands had the item that belonged there listed with part numbers. I never use the "wink light" I sue an electronic flash but there it is...I think there's a disease that covers that problem!


$52 ? I'd say that's a steal for what you have in that case.
As coisasdavida said the grafmatic holder ( 6 shots ) is a bonus if the septums are all there.
Check to see if the focal plane shutter is intact ( not dry and krinkly ) I think what you have is a
Anniversary Graphic and it may have a graflock back, press the 2 silver arms and slide the back off to check
the focal plane shutter. Just don't do what I did and test fire the focal plane shutter without checking it's condition :o

Besides, your flash is the coveted graflex flash handle used by ILM for Obi-wan's light saber, if you decide not
to do flash bulb photography toss it up on the 'bay and the fans will be all over it like white on rice !
You might even get back the price you paid for the whole lot.

pudentaineLf
27-Mar-2013, 15:45
Do you have any experience with lenses that are in shutters...I bought this great old lens, and I thought it would just be a matter of unscrewing the flange and the lens being fee, but the aperture attached is making it hard from me to figure out how to take the shutter outer shell off, the shutter is broken and I would prefer to have the lens w/o the shutter but I don't believe it's possible in this case ( or maybe in any case) I defiantly want the aperture and being a newbie (and the fact that the shutter doesn't work) I don't know if the blades of the aperture are the same as the....no, they aren't because you shoot with the shutter. when the f stop is set...the more i think about it the more I think just use the whole thing and ignore the fact that the shutter doesn't work, no one else knows it doesn't work and who's gonna walk up on the treat out of the blue and ask "does your shutter work, you just look like the kind of guy that would have a camera with a broken shutter"
I don't think so..."never mind "( in my best lily Tomlin baby voice)! Your thoughts?


Having a focal plane shutter opens up a larger selection of lenses that don't have shutters, just be cautious of it, I guess depending on how it was stored and the production run of the curtain material some will deteriorate faster than others, I have an Anniversary Graphic that dates to 1945
and the shutter cloth is fine, but my RB graflex which is from the same time the curtain was crispy and I tore it checking it out.

pudentaineLf
24-May-2013, 16:45
UPDATE:

I ended up putting on a new lens board for $10 adding a lens for $20 (great lens shutter broken), adding a new back view door (free w/some 4x5 film holders I bought on eBay for $4), cleaning it up and selling it with 2 of the 4x5 slides for $145. I sold the case for $25, the Grafmatic 3 cell flash for $140, and then I still got to keep the Grafmatic 4x5 and about eight 4x5 film holders for myself. I NEVER would have known what the 3 cell was worth without you feedback. I ended up buying what I really wanted and some of you purist may cringe but it's what I like and that the Busch Pressman model "C".
Many Thanks to you that helped me. Thomas

95700957019570295703



Hi Guys,
Did I make a mistake buying a Navy surplus Speed Graphic 4 x 5 for $52. It comes with original case, a score of film holders and a flash!! But no lens, lens boards or shutter. I like projects and I've been wanting a 4 x 5 but couldn't afford it but I started looking at prices for lenses and shutter & I began to get discouraged and think I've made a mistake. I'm sure prices would be lower at a photography swap meet than on Ebay but I don't even know how to begin. Well that's not really true, I'm here and I'm told there are lots of DYI tutorials here. I guess I'm just looking to talk to some of you people that have actually done a project like this. I'm open to any kind of direction, advice, opinions or anything else that is informative or encouraging. I'd like to know what you think.
-Thanks, Thomas

pudentaineLf
24-May-2013, 16:51
I kept the Grafmatic but look page 4 of these posts to see how I did with all the other stuff & photos of my 1st restoration job. Thanks
I see a Grafmatic in the case. I've seen them sell here for anything between $75 to $120 depending on the looks of it.
You could probably place a WTT and get the lens you need.

pudentaineLf
24-May-2013, 17:02
The FP shutter was in great condition, I added a lens board, sold the Graflok and replaced with a Graflex that was free,added a 127 Kodak lens with a broken shutter ($20) had a lens board made $10, checked the bellows & they were great,cleaned off the surface rust (it and I are in a coastal area, where you get this rust that's only surface, thanks to the camera gods that's all it was) cleaned and treated the leather.95704957059570695707


I sold the camera and 3 film holder for $145
kept the Grafmatic
Learned what a Graflock back was
Sold the light Saber for $140
The case for $25
and kept about 8 4x5 film holders.

If you hadn't filled me in I would have gone this way, I wanted to especially thank you personally for your insight. I would have kept the flash and never used it, or eventually would have sold it for $25.. with out the help I got on this forum I wouldn't have known that I could use a lens without a shutter either which my buyer was quit happy with. Thanks Thomas


$52 ? I'd say that's a steal for what you have in that case.
As coisasdavida said the grafmatic holder ( 6 shots ) is a bonus if the septums are all there.
Check to see if the focal plane shutter is intact ( not dry and krinkly ) I think what you have is a
Anniversary Graphic and it may have a graflock back, press the 2 silver arms and slide the back off to check
the focal plane shutter. Just don't do what I did and test fire the focal plane shutter without checking it's condition :o

Besides, your flash is the coveted graflex flash handle used by ILM for Obi-wan's light saber, if you decide not
to do flash bulb photography toss it up on the 'bay and the fans will be all over it like white on rice !
You might even get back the price you paid for the whole lot.