Teen photographer

[jmandell]

Hi all,

I am 16 and I have been shooting digital with a Nikon D700 for a while now. I shoot sports for school, but my real love is landscapes.

I wanting to branch out from my little digital bubble and experience what the photographers did before digital.

I have been looking around for some good deals on cameras (4x5 mostly), but I would like some suggestions.


I look forward to learning and participating in this community.

[Light Guru]

What is your budget? knowing that would help us make suggestions on camera lenses etc?

[C_Remington]

What is your budget? knowing that would help us make suggestions on camera lenses etc?

I'll bet I can guess.

[jmandell]

What is your budget? knowing that would help us make suggestions on camera lenses etc?

Sorry, forgot about that.

I selling off some of my unused lenses right now and I can probably manage ~$500-$600

[Vaughn]

A rail camera (rather than a folding field camera) will be more affordable, as long as you do not want to carry it too far. Though in my youth (anything in the 20's seems youthful to be now!), I carried a rail 4x5 (Calumet) for miles in a heavy case.

The Calumet rail cameras are not expensive on the used market. Graphic Views are older but very usable. I would tend to look for a complete kit (camera, lens, a few holders...perhaps a darkcloth...all in some sort of case) can be a good deal.

Lens -- and modern lens in a Copal shutter would be my first choice...150mm to 210mm as a start. Caltars (rebranded German lenses) can be found at a good price...the same as their German branded equivilents.

A solid tripod is needed. All should be doable on your budget.

Good luck and have fun!

Vaughn

[Jim Galli]

Get and read Chavez Ravine; a Los Angeles Story (https://www.google.com/search?q=Chavez+Ravine,+a+Los+Angeles+Story&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=G6v&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=qwVBUaymMIGMyQGz0YGADw&ved=0CGYQsAQ&biw=1152&bih=735) by Don Normark. One of my favorite books. The images were done with a little rollfilm 120 camera that won't fetch $24 on Ebay, and yet I am mesmerized every time I read it.

It was 1949, and Normark wasn't much older than you, a college kid. The camera was a little tin can called a Ciro Flex (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ciro-Flex-Camera-w-Leather-Case-Wollensak-Lens-Alphax-Shutter-Delaware-OH-/171004684783?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item27d0ac69ef&BackToListReferer=http%3A%2F%2Fmy.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FMyEbayBeta). (disclaimers etc. just to show what I'm talking about) Everything about it is manual. Like driving a '40's british car with a crash box. You're busy all the time. But it can pay you back handsomely.

Not trying to talk you out of 4X5, just what came to mind when you mentioned 'old school'.

[thomasfallon]

Why stop at 4x5. Those are more popular and more dollars. I saw a Calumet C1 on Ebay for three something. You can lift it.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Do you want to carry it around with you? Try and get your hands on a field camera. They'll probably cost a bit more than a rail camera, but your back will thank you for it. I started out on an old Cambo 4x5 monorail. Soon packed it in for a old beat up Linhof IV. Maybe someone on this forum could give you a good deal on what you are looking for. Good luck, and welcome to the forum!

[paulr]

If you can find an affordable field camera i think you'll be a lot happier than with a monorail. My college had calumet rail cameras in big cases and I did not enjoy the bruises i got hauling them around.

You can start with one lens. I used one lens for years. Since you've been taking pictures with another format, you already have an idea of what angle of view you use most often. Take your favorite focal length and multiply by 3-1/3 to get the approximate equivalent in 4x5.

Do you know how you plan to print? If you want to make contact prints, or have access to a scanner than can take big film, then going bigger than 4x5 may be practical. Otherwise I suspect it will cost more and limit your choices more.

[jmandell]

A rail camera (rather than a folding field camera) will be more affordable, as long as you do not want to carry it too far. Though in my youth (anything in the 20's seems youthful to be now!), I carried a rail 4x5 (Calumet) for miles in a heavy case.

The Calumet rail cameras are not expensive on the used market. Graphic Views are older but very usable. I would tend to look for a complete kit (camera, lens, a few holders...perhaps a darkcloth...all in some sort of case) can be a good deal.

Lens -- and modern lens in a Copal shutter would be my first choice...150mm to 210mm as a start. Caltars (rebranded German lenses) can be found at a good price...the same as their German branded equivilents.

A solid tripod is needed. All should be doable on your budget.

Good luck and have fun!

Vaughn

Thanks for the advice! As for the tripod, I have a Manfrotto 055xprob with a 410 geared head, would this be sturdy enough?

[jmandell]

If you can find an affordable field camera i think you'll be a lot happier than with a monorail. My college had calumet rail cameras in big cases and I did not enjoy the bruises i got hauling them around.

You can start with one lens. I used one lens for years. Since you've been taking pictures with another format, you already have an idea of what angle of view you use most often. Take your favorite focal length and multiply by 3-1/3 to get the approximate equivalent in 4x5.

Do you know how you plan to print? If you want to make contact prints, or have access to a scanner than can take big film, then going bigger than 4x5 may be practical. Otherwise I suspect it will cost more and limit your choices more.

Ahhh... The problem with printing. I still haven't found any labs in my area that process LF film. My dad used to have his own dark room, so we could probably develop it on our own and send them to be scanned elsewhere. If anyone knows of any labs in SW Ohio I'd love to know about them.




A big thanks for the warm welcome and the advice :)

[Bernice Loui]

Very likely yes for the majority of cameras under consideration.

:)
Bernice


Thanks for the advice! As for the tripod, I have a Manfrotto 055xprob with a 410 geared head, would this be sturdy enough?

[Bernice Loui]

If maybe best to find a good used view camera system instead of purchasing the bits required individually. There are plenty of good used view camera systems on the used market. It is a matter of time when a good deal on a good camera system will appear for you that will fit your budget.

Adding up the cost of items like film holders, case, focus loupe and all the other bits required can easily add up fast. Compared to a good used view camera system
that could have these bits and more included for the price.

Stay way from any camera that "needs work" like leaky bellows, locks that do not work properly, un-stable due to worn parts and ... Do start with at least one lens that has a good reliable and consistent shutter within the normal focal length range.

One of the most discouraging things for folks new to LF is a flaky shutter on a poor lens and a camera that will not behave, this will cause un-ending grief and very discouraging to the point when the new LF'er might give up and never to try LF again.

Field camera or monorail depends more on the types of images you're intending to create. It is better to consider the lenses to be used and where the images are created to decide a specific type of camera.

Beyond the photo hardware, focus on image making as the skills gained from using a view camera has the potential improve your image making skills.
It is also wonderful to see young adults become interested in crafting images by using what is basically a flexi-box with a lens on one end and recording media on the other end, or the basic camera from the very beginnings of photography.

:)
Bernice




Hi all,

I am 16 and I have been shooting digital with a Nikon D700 for a while now. I shoot sports for school, but my real love is landscapes.

I wanting to branch out from my little digital bubble and experience what the photographers did before digital.

I have been looking around for some good deals on cameras (4x5 mostly), but I would like some suggestions.


I look forward to learning and participating in this community.

[Reinhold Schable]

Another suggestion...

Some folks like 5x7 format, it's big enough for contact printing, (less darkroom gear needed).
The slightly wider 1:1.4 format is a nice fit for landscapes (closer to 35mm format).
There's a mindset among some that 5x7 film is "dead" (so they may dump a 5x7 camera cheaply).
5x7 is a comfortable fit between a svelte 4x5 and an 8x10 brute.

Reinhold

[Jody_S]

...my real love is landscapes.

(...) and experience what the photographers did before digital.



Before digital, photographers did what photographers do: make photographs. The determining factor isn't the technology used to make the image, but the vision, the desire to tell a story in a way that hasn't been told, or a way of seeing the world that hasn't been seen. Will LF help? Well, it helped me, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to go! If you can make a good photograph with your digital camera, then with the same basic vision you will be able to make a good photograph with large format. Assuming you take the time to learn the constraints of LF, same as you had to learn for whatever digital contraption you're using now. Most of us shoot large format by choice, because 1) we're old.... that's what we learned with; 2) we're old and we never bothered with all that digital crap; 3) we're old, and the slow pace of large format suits us better than taking hundreds of snapshots with digital hoping something turns out.

Did I mention we're old, as in we, as a group, pre-date the invention of the transistor? My favorite camera was made in 1888; my favorite lens: 1874.

[Bernice Loui]

Had din din with a friend a few weeks ago who owns a photography business. She employs several young adults who produces images with digital camera. They take hundreds of frames of which maybe one or two are OK. One of her complaints regarding this group of photographers is the waste of time trying to sort over all those frames and time wasted trying to get a good image with no good results. It is the lack of discipline and the corruption of what appears to be zero cost images. This mind set appears to be common some groups of digital image makers.

One of the skills learned from doing film photography and sheet film is learning how to make each sheet of film count in place of "spray and pray."



Bernice





the slow pace of large format suits us better than taking hundreds of snapshots with digital hoping something turns out.

[Brian C. Miller]

Most of us shoot large format by choice, because 1) we're old.... that's what we learned with; 2) we're old and we never bothered with all that digital crap; 3) we're old, and the slow pace of large format suits us better than taking hundreds of snapshots with digital hoping something turns out.

Did I mention we're old, as in we, as a group, pre-date the invention of the transistor? My favorite camera was made in 1888; my favorite lens: 1874.

1: Not me
2: Not me, digital doesn't measure up
3: It just takes more film holders.

jmandell, welcome to the forum! I bought a Graflex Super Graphic for $500 years ago, and I'm still using it. Press cameras fold up into a nice package, and a lens can stay on the camera. They are sweet to use, and give decades of service. They are "light" at about six pounds, and very sturdy. The lenses are sharp, and mine can give me bicycle spokes a block away.

Have you seen a 4x5 negative yet? If not, after you get your camera and make your first exposure at, say, f/8 or f/11, take a look at the negative with a really good magnifying glass. It's called a "loupe." Or use a real microscope. Look at the detail! Oh, the detail! It's a whole sheet of wonderful goodness. Does it get better? Only with a larger piece of film.

And then you'll have fun for life!

As for your first camera, a Calumet Orbit or similar is a LF monorail camera with a handle on the top. It's very sturdy, very reliable, and it's made to be easily carried. These are very cheap, too. This means that you'll have more money for a good lens. And in LF, a lens has to be really, really bad before it's actually bad. (I'm not sure if there are any truly bad LF lenses.)

Common focal lengths for 4x5 LF go from 135mm to 210mm, which is a bit wide to a bit "long." A 135mm lens is a moderate wide angle lens, something like a 40mm lens for your D700. You should be able to pick up something from one of the major manufacturers, like Nikon, Fuji, or Schneider, for $200 or less. Calumet is rebranded Schneider, and it's a fine lens.

We have lots of information on the site, so read up! A lot of us here, me included, use our bathrooms as darkrooms. I keep my enlarger on a cart, and wheel it in and out. It works just fine, and takes less than 30 minutes to set up for enlarging, and less for developing film.

Enjoy your new adventure, and have fun!

[C. D. Keth]

Here's your camera. (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum379/116249-4x5-graphic-view-parts-restoration.html)

[Pete Watkins]

I bought a Burke & James from a fellow forum member about 5 or 6 years ago for $250. It has 4x5 & 5x7 backs and is great. If you're short of readies I would recommend a 150mm lens and a Kodak Ektar 203 would serve you well for both formats to start with. Don't listen to all the crap they come out with about B&J's, I added a few cheap fiber washers where I thought they were needed and it locks down well.
Best wishes,
Pete.

[paulr]

1) we're old.... that's what we learned with

I learned on 35mm and switched to LF when I was 20, decades after the transistor showed up.


2) we're old and we never bothered with all that digital crap;

I'm absolutely delighted with all the digital crap. At least with the best of it.


3) we're old, and the slow pace of large format suits us better than taking hundreds of snapshots with digital hoping something turns out.

The kid says he wants to learn LF. You don't have to sell him on it with nonsense like this. Photography by attrition existed long before the digital camera was invented. And a digital camera doesn't force anyone to work that way. Taking lots of pictures has worked quite well for some people (Winogrand, Robert Frank, etc.)—different strategies for different kinds of work.

[John Kasaian]

If it's landscapes you want to shoot the suggestion for a 5x7 is a good one. Develop the film yourself and make your own contact prints. Plus the longer 7" dimension is an asset, IMHO for landscapes. Be aware that film holders will be more costly as will 5x7 film when compared to 4x5, but you can always put a 4x5 back on a 5x7 camera if it gets to be too much.

[Rain Dance]

You might also want to try pinholes, like the Harman Titan or the other pinhole cameras you can find in ebay. I usually don't like pinholes in smaller formats but they seem to work well in larger formats. Since you like landscapes I guess the longer exposure times are not that much of a problem. If you find the cost of film prohibitive, you can use BW Paper or the Direct Positive Paper from Ilford. :)

http://www.flickr.com/groups/thelargeformatpinholegroup/pool/

[Mike Anderson]

Thanks for the advice! As for the tripod, I have a Manfrotto 055xprob with a 410 geared head, would this be sturdy enough?

That would work very well. I use a 055XPROB with a ball head with a fairly heavy monorail. It's plenty strong. The 410 head would be better.

[Jody_S]

The kid says he wants to learn LF. You don't have to sell him on it with nonsense like this.

Thank you, I'll keep that in mind. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a cave under a bridge that is missing it's troll. Oh wait, I'm an ogre. Well, my swamp is frozen over, I'll have to make do with that cave for now.

[jmandell]

Thanks to all who welcomed me and gave advice!

I think I might have found a camera: A Graflex Speed Graphic. I have read that they have limited range of motion when it comes to the pointing of the lens, but they are rather cheap and I thought it might be a good way to try out LF.

This one especially caught my eye:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nice-Graflex-4x5-Pacemaker-Crown-Graphic-press-view-field-camera-Optar-lens-/330887193394?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item4d0a69e332

Any thoughts on this camera or any other suggestions?

[Jon Shiu]

Those are great compact 4x5 cameras. The "Crown" model doesn't have a curtain shutter in the back, but the "Speed" model does. Because the lens usually has it's own shutter, the curtain shutter is not really needed.

Jon

[Leszek Vogt]

Welcome to LF, jmndell. If you don't have a decent lab near you, you can always send out. I'm one of those that decided not to have a darkroom, though I didn't cancel the idea of being able to develop & scan my film. You'll likely need a good light meter. For time being you can use your digi camera to determine exposure. One of the pluses for 4x5 is, that there are more films available in this format. You can find them at B&H, Freestyle, Badger, etc. Good luck.

Les

[Alan Gales]

Hi all,

I am 16 and I have been shooting digital with a Nikon D700 for a while now. I shoot sports for school, but my real love is landscapes.

I wanting to branch out from my little digital bubble and experience what the photographers did before digital.

I have been looking around for some good deals on cameras (4x5 mostly), but I would like some suggestions.


I look forward to learning and participating in this community.

Ok, you are 16 years old and looking for a 4x5 camera. When I was 16 I spent most of my money on girls and record albums so I assume you have similar interest and have a tight budget for this. Normally I would recommend a wooden or metal field camera. With your suspected budget you probably want to look at monorails. Cambo and Calumet cameras are a steal now a days Check out Ebay and look for a camera with a 135mm to 210mm lens included. Camera and lens combinations are generally cheaper.

Good luck to you and feel free to ask any questions you want. It's great to get young people on the forum.

[jmandell]

I have also found a super speed graphic, it appears to have some more movement in the front. Is there really a difference between the Crown, Speed, and Super Speed models?

Also, are there 5x7 backs available for those cameras?

[jmandell]

Ok, you are 16 years old and looking for a 4x5 camera. When I was 16 I spent most of my money on girls and record albums so I assume you have similar interest and have a tight budget for this. Normally I would recommend a wooden or metal field camera. With your suspected budget you probably want to look at monorails. Cambo and Calumet cameras are a steal now a days Check out Ebay and look for a camera with a 135mm to 210mm lens included. Camera and lens combinations are generally cheaper.

Good luck to you and feel free to ask any questions you want. It's great to get young people on the forum.

Thanks for the welcome,
Unlike you most of my money is spent on photography and astronomy
:D

[Jody_S]

I have also found a super speed graphic, it appears to have some more movement in the front. Is there really a difference between the Crown, Speed, and Super Speed models?

Also, are there 5x7 backs available for those cameras?

Yes on #1, no on #2

All of the info you need on the differences can be found here: Graflex Cameras (http://www.graflex.org/cameras/)

I don't want to make sweeping generalizations because I'll be called out on it, but generally 'Speed' refers to the cameras with a built-in focal-plane shutter (like common 35mm SLRs from before the 1980s, composed of 2 traveling cloth blinds with varying time/distance gap in between them). These cameras have a top speed of 1/1000th, generally impossible with other large format cameras (there is an exception to this, one (?) model 'Speed' does not have the focal-plane shutter).

The Crown Graphic is the same camera without the focal plane shutter. There are variants with different degrees of possible movements, mostly due to improvements of the front standard. Also, some models have 'drop bed', that is the fold-out front of the camera with the focus rails can drop down by about 30 degrees to use wide-angle lenses without getting the front of the rails in your shot. This is useful if you intend to do landscape (you will need a wide-angle lens, of course).

The cameras were made in common sizes: 4x5 is most common, 3-1/4 x 4-1/4 next (hard to find film now), one size smaller (?), and finally there are a few 5x7 Speed Graphics out there but they are quite rare. You cannot use a larger back than what the camera was made for, though you could fit a smaller back or a roll-film holder to do panoramics on 120 film.

[C. D. Keth]

...one size smaller (?)...

Yup, 2-1/4"x3-1/4"

[Vaughn]

The Super Speed Camera does not have the rear focal plane shutter -- instead it has a front shutter capable of 1/1000 sec.
A great way to start! Have fun!

[dperez]

Welcome.

The speed graphic sounds like a pretty cool way to enter LF, it will give you some flexibility when it comes to selecting lenses, including barrel lenses that don't have shutters (assuming that the in-camera shutter is working correctly).

Maybe the one advantage the 4x5 format has over others is the wider variety of films that are easily available in that size. 5x7 and larger have fewer options. In addition, the cost of films is a consideration as well.

Which ever camera you choose, don't get carried away with lenses. Try to stick with one lens for a while. If you can, use one kind of film as well. Shoot as much as you can, as you will make many mistakes, but in the process you will learn. Nothing beats doing!

This forum has a lot of resources and information readily available. Read the following articles: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/how-to-operate.html and http://www.largeformatphotography.info/how-to-focus.html

Have fun.

-DP