Black and white negative scanning - tricky?

[Meekyman]

Hi Folks,

I'm rather new to LF photography and at the moment experimenting with the kit I have before deciding to "invest" more. I don't yet have my own scanner as that will be part of the next stage of "investiment". I've sent images (colour positives/negatives) out to a commercial scanning outfit who have done well at times (Portra 160/Provia 100F) and poorly (velvia 50). I've learnt from this.

Anyway, I am considering using some black and white film (Ilford Delta 100) and am just asking, thinking for the future really, if there are issues scanning this. I would likely buy an EPSON V700/V750 when the time is right for my own scans and think of drum scans if/for special images.

So, is scanning B&W negatives trickier than colour negatives?

Cheers

Graham

[Zaitz]

Trickier than color negatives? Certainly not for me. Color negatives get talked about a lot for their difficulty in scanning. But b&w for me is fairly straight forward. Setting the end points and mid point in Epson Scan is about all I do. The one 'tricky' thing is that if I place the highlight endpoint where the histogram ends then that often blocks some of the highlights when they shouldn't be. I have to take the highlight point past the end of the histogram and it can be iffy on how far to go. This gives me a flatter scan but the separation in the highlights can be brought out once in photoshop. Ken Lee's article is very good:

http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/scanning.php

[Lenny Eiger]

So, is scanning B&W negatives trickier than colour negatives?
Graham

In a word, no. I would say its easier than color neg. There is no orange mask in b&w negs. The key thing is to separate the tones. I watch each area of tonality as I work with the curve dialog and make sure it is articulated.

Lenny

[paulr]

I find color negatives much much trickier to scan. But there's still a learning curve. I don't go for a scan that looks good right out of the scanner, but for one with zero clipping, and as Lenny says, with good separation everywhere. Getting the image to look the way you want comes after the scanning process.

[rich815]

Main advice I'd give is that I find a slightly flatter neg than what would be best for analog enlarging and printing better for scanning. What I have found works for me is exposing about a 1/2 stop more in camera and then pulling development by about 10-30% depending upon the subject matter and contrast of the scene(s) in general. Makes for negs with less "pop" when you look at them upon pulling them out of the developing tanks but in my experience makes for a MUCH more pleasant experience when scanning. Too much contrast in the negs makes it very hard to have good smooth tones in your scanning. And lastly do NOT try to scan right off the bat for a perfect looking scan. Again, scan for the most tonality. This means the scan result will, again, be flat. But scanning in high bit you can then use basic curves and levels to bring back some snap and contrast as you like, keeping your workflow in high bit.

[Meekyman]

Thanks everyone.....my experiment with LF with move onto B&W!!

[Meekyman]

So, can I ask a dumb question then!

I currently expose colour negs by placing shadows at -2 and checking that highlights are within the dynamic range of the film (upto +8 on Provia 160, usually so far around +4 or +5). This would be zone 3 to zone 9/10. I know about and use grad ND filters. Would this dynamic range be beyond the capability of getting a good scan with the EPSON V700? If I understood a post above, it might be better to go for less contrast in the neg to get a good scan?

Cheers

Graham

[cjbroadbent]

I'm pretty sure it's bad practice; But I've got into the habit of scanning B&W negatives twice and blending in Photomatix.
This seems to keep a grip on the mid-tones without flattening out to hold detail at the extremities.

I've never understood why there is such an ugly bend in the default curve with B&W whereas the curve is more or less a straight in colour.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Anyway, I am considering using some black and white film (Ilford Delta 100) and am just asking, thinking for the future really, if there are issues scanning this. I would likely buy an EPSON V700/V750 when the time is right for my own scans and think of drum scans if/for special images.

I've scanned Delta 100 on my friend's V750. No worries.


So, is scanning B&W negatives trickier than colour negatives?

I would say easier, but I've never scanned colour. Wouldn't the B/W negative file be smaller?

[ImSoNegative]

I shoot delta 100 exclusively now and I scan using an Epson v700 seems pretty easy to me but then again I haven't scanned that much color either. delta 100 is a great film

[Tyler Boley]

So, can I ask a dumb question then!

I currently expose colour negs by placing shadows at -2 and checking that highlights are within the dynamic range of the film (upto +8 on Provia 160, usually so far around +4 or +5). This would be zone 3 to zone 9/10. I know about and use grad ND filters. Would this dynamic range be beyond the capability of getting a good scan with the EPSON V700? If I understood a post above, it might be better to go for less contrast in the neg to get a good scan?

Cheers

Graham

You should be fine, it's still far less density range than a transparency. I've scanned many VERY full color and BW negs without hitting scanner limitations. You have to begin with capturing your scene range somehow within the film limits, sounds like you are doing that. We can capture, scan, and print many more demanding scenes now than when it used to have to fit withing C print limitations.

[bob carnie]

I use the digital colour meter set to LAB and read significant shadow and highlight regions and place them at numbers I know print well for Black and White images.
I also use this meter for colour to determine grey balance within areas of the image and use the scanner curves and levels to adjust for these regions.

Basically the same as setting aim points in PS and neutralizing as well making sure I leave head room for editing further down the line.

[Nathan Potter]

[QUOTE=cjbroadbent;1013869]I'm pretty sure it's bad practice; But I've got into the habit of scanning B&W negatives twice and blending in Photomatix.
This seems to keep a grip on the mid-tones without flattening out to hold detail at the extremities.

Interesting, I also occasionally do the double scanning of B&W and use Photomatix for the following tone mapping especially with my older B&W negatives. That's OK; I don't think there is anything in photography that is bad practice as long as it achieves your objective. OTOH there may sometimes be better techniques that we have just not developed ourselves or are aware of.

Recently I have begun to use bracketed exposures more frequently with my 4X5 B&W, especially when I view that the scene may be something special - often 3 images separated by 2 or 3 f/stops. Then I'll do N+0 development to catch the linear part of the curve that rests even at zone 1 and 2 and 8 and 9. Finally I'll combine using Photomatix with final tweaks in PS.

Historically I have used two bath development to extend the DR of B&W negatives. I use Diafine, the technique being that once the part A is exhausted in the emulsion the density decreases and stops independent of the degree of exposure given the film. For scanning I try to limit the density at about
LogD 2.1 yielding about 8 stops of DR. 8 stops can be squeezed out of an Epson V 750 scanner.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[pasiasty]

Colour transparencies, particularly Velvia 50, have very wide density range - that makes them very well looking and difficult to scan. Over 4d of (true, not declared by the manufacturer) dynamic range is needed, which is hardly achievable on flat-bed scanners like V700/V750. No such problem exists in case of B&W negatives.

On the other hand - silver-gelatin films does not allow to use Digital ICE that makes scanning more prone to dust and scratches. Theoretically you could use chromogenic B&W films, yet they are not available in sheets; or you may use colour negatives and scan them/convert scans to B&W.